So dominated by major problems. So what is now on the global sound, which is essentially a, dont a big countries used to be called card world and as youre going to them, but has not been in a good solution for a long time. And its only in the last couple of decades with globalization and new opportunities for growth that, you know, countries like china and india, many other countries in latin america and africa experienced. I think the Current Crisis in domestic crisis, both the water going, but more importantly, all the policy kind of decisions taken as a consequence of the war on hunting us. It has a very interesting sense here because both the east and the west, both russia and the United States. I trying to coordinate it to that side, but it positions itself as a leader for having the leader of the global south. One gas mean for india is Foreign Policy stands in practical terms, was possible in practical terms in doing all this had an independence. But see, ive been trying to time to get my republic in mind to talk to someone. It does have different names used to call it non alignment. Then we talk about strategic autonomy. But essentially, look, auto indian policy towards the rest of the work is to have an independent or policy of decisions based on, on interest and, and understanding that we are a nation that india like china, like russia, like a europe of mainland europe and many others who are still introduced in latin america of the box risha. We had a similar national entity. And we have seen our films as a country that has a message based on the longest pre authorization, 5000 history of us in addition. And the 1st of a deep belief in our identity that we hope to have an independent voice. And whether it was in the past or to watch by or monsoon. We to my, well, everyone has had an independent was international affairs. Well, but i think there is definitely a independence in the rhetoric of many engine leaders. But you, by the way, yourself wrote that despite all washingtons efforts to have in your daily conscripted to the so called rules based product order, india has a vital interest in upholding a different set of rules. Those that would support broader Economic Development and prosperity. But how ground it is in the, in these Multi Lateral view, i mean, how free it is from the can taishan all fine, you know, getting some credentials of a Democratic State from washington. You mentioned the very long history of your civilization. But when i watch indian media, i also see that its very important for many people to sort of deal themselves to be in the good graces of the west, because supposedly the west issues, those, you know, good democracy certificates. Well, i dont think were well known about certificates. I dont think that it is the indian political issue youre talking about the indian media. Indian media is very diverse because issue for us has always been the fact that because of our colonial history and english is the most important language in this country. So kind of integrating language because in the, as a country off several languages and english remains are linked to the word. So there isnt much greater influence of the English Speaking word on the maybe think what we read, etc. Plus the people to people contact. I mean, if you look at the numbers of indians living around the world, most of them are on the speaker, United States, United Kingdom and center. And so theyre all in the media. You will see that biased, but i think we must distinguish between the rhetoric of the media and hoping in the media and the use of the gun. But i think government and india successively including the present have taken an independent position. We have tried to bill issues with, with, with russia on, with china, on United States or indeed with other countries like japan, germany, france on the basis of national. And its not as if youre not going to pressure from time to time, come under pressure. And i can talk about innovative incentives, then well come under pressure. But each time you come under pressure, i think it is our good fortune that we have had a National Leadership that does and centered its independence. When we have just seen recently on the water in the un security council, india has taken a real fix on it does not bandwagon with anybody else. Now you mentioned a moment ago and you wrote about that before then both the humanitarian consequences of Russia Military operation in ukraine and western economic sanctions were intended to punish russia for that are hurting the Global Community to substantial expand. Do they do that though in equal measure . Do you think they could be compare it in terms of impact . Well, i was so difficult to question. Im not looking to do sequence measure, but the fact is that the nation global inflation triggered by that i, you know, price goodbye, that i was employed price. And then with the, the disconnect in the financial system. If you can amik sanctions imposed by the United States and the nature of ours, all of them together are certainly back to us when we are we and, and you read that know, looking would have been the receiving end of the combined effect of all of and you know, you can get into a blend game whos to blame with the rest, just to man. But i think the fact is that you, in the history of this conflict, i would argue both sides of leaning. In gleaning is irrelevant than geopolitics because they kind of do anything with that. But the reason why, why im asking this question is because i think we will like nobody would think twice before condemning when we all understand that this is the worst possible outcome. The question is whether there was any alternative to that, but i think there is a perception in the International Community that sanctions somehow and more moral and more ecological means of doing politics. Even though if you look at the number of people who are affected by the decisions, i think theyre much larger than the number of people contacted by the direct conflict. So i think its a, its also very important point to sort of look at the motivations a contained war for, for the concrete interest, various versus essentially a how the culture style action that affects everybody. And very, very little consideration for, you know, 3rd parties will have nothing to do with struggle with, you know, youre right. And thats what i was doing. Some of my columns was republish to to go back to march april this year, beginning of the facilities that sanctions, most of all out of blood instrument. They do not distinguish the targets. Youll see the impact of what example us sanctions on the on and you know, everybody has been impacted by that mean india and the receiving end Office Transactions for a long time. So sanctions on a blunt instrument and i think it is to say that a conflict between 2 countries scrubbing can bend within those 2 countries, which has happened in many other cases. But the minute round global sections. And that to sanctions huge in from each thing to natural system. I mean, you take, for example, the sanctioning of the Russian Center back. I was reading somewhere that, you know, right to the 2nd one was the bank of International Studies runs in switzerland. Never sanction b, i spent the German Central Bank for a close company. The german banks were not sanctioned. So you know, better than discrimination. And i think fracturing central bank certainly is something which has hurt us. And most importantly, you know, the pressure on the market to try and just on them say, one by russian on my list. And i sent all of these her no, nothing countries. And you know, many i was in india, ive been right now. And this is a fascinating question for me, how that was applies its pressure because on the one hand, it has many indirect ways of sabotaging its own direct commitments. But on the other hand, if we look at the news about old pack making a decision to lower its Oil Production despite very heavy and very African American low being is clear and that americans scope of influence even with, with its own allies, is somewhat limited. How do you assess western capacity of getting out what washington once at this point of time, do you think the masses of pressure have changed in any way . Well, 1st of all, that stuff changed in the sense that theres much greater willingness. Now to use a sector as an instrument of pressure, ive been asked to kind of do it and im with you. It makes you see that the instrumental sanctions have longer. What time, as i said in the past of Central Banks will never sanction. But now that is happening. So the financial sector, a spotlight spots thanks. But more importantly, i think the change that has happened in the last 20 years compared to the before that. What youre going to put on india is the global average. Nobody. And in some ways, you see that in the china and dependence of Chinese Companies on the market. So it depends a lot of companies. So the change in the global system economics is government trading. That was, that has the full change, the way in which sanctions are being used to kind of sanction techniques of being device. But i would still make a distinction between the destination of the states of government. I mean to talk about opec. Opec is an organization of government, so and when it comes to doug with you stand by national interest, when it comes to private companies, you know, now theyve all got better boards and understandable to some extent mr. Bar, we have to take a very short break. Right now, but it will be back in just a few moments station a so what weve got to do is identify the threats that we have. Its crazy confrontation, let it be an arms race group is often very Dramatic Development only personally and getting to resist. Ill see how that strategy will be successful, very critical time time to sit down and talk ah, with ah ah ah welcome back to one of the ports with sunshine, our distinguished fellow at the United Service institution of india, mr. Botto. Before the break, were talking about this somewhat a diversion stands on National Governments may have on politics and doing business internationally and private companies. And yet, at the same time, i think, perhaps you would agree with me that the, the globalization, as we knew it only, you know, 5 or even 10 years ago. Its not there anymore. And the United States a while trying to punish someone with any mis is undermining these various systems. So lets say the horizon of 5 or 10 years going forward. Which policies, state oriented policies or state oriented intention or private oriented intention of each of them would prevail . Well, i think suddenly, you know, looking at a 5 year term or something in india, im in one of the state. We already have seen a shift in the last 5 years. We present government and then the government has non what is called when a beyond which is self reliant in the program which is essentially went to reduce our dependence. Particularly if i didnt acknowledge the difference or not to do something you know and other, i think we should have done that. And then you get to reduce our dependence on other countries and become much more. So i joke with my friends and the ruling party which is about to give them the money is not like god or this on the policy of marion in the 50s, of building a sensor that in the, of based on domestic. And now once again, we have the next phase where we call the challenge of globalization because of the Global Change to a go w d modular to Training System is no longer looking because of some sanctions. I think for all these reasons and also from an indian one to do the plug or the pressure from china on us, we are trying to reduce our dependence, extend them dependence, and become more. And i think thats the next week and now you speak about reliance, bigger involvement of state and the economy as synonymous things, things that are related to each other. And i think theres a very strong narrative in the was that whenever a face role, especially in bigger countries, that can challenge the United States whenever i say for all is increased. And thats, thats a way to, to talk chrissy or to tell in parent is, but i think we are coming to the very interesting point in history where self sufficiency or sovereignty are becoming a means of achieving democracy. Am i wrong here . Is it because it sounds like a paradox, but if more countries are pursuing their own self interest, the democratic system internationally seems to be improving well doable democracy. I dont know, understand. What youre doing is to be a focus back to solving. I think what you saw during the globalization was the reduced emphasis on something. And the idea that the one to slap thomas friedman, the new book on the, on equal trading on equal terms are better than long digits. And therefore nations audits. And that is actually a fax, thats fine. I dont know what kind of systems werent always very, very different than that because i dont think, you know, the United States are youre going to decide what is democracy and what isnt, isnt that . Well, i mean, i understand what democracy are working on. A domestic level essentially means that every member of the society or every group has a certain input. Its treated fairly in proportion to its sides within the society that everybodys interest are accounted for. And when we translate out to the international system, it has to be working. It could be working in the same fashion. So countries big and small, it doesnt mean that they have the same amount of influence, but it leaves our interests would be taking into account and the global processes could be structure. Is there way not to penalize or ostracize one or the other . In this answer, do you think global democracy as a way of taking into account various interests and trying to integrate them into the Decision Making . Isnt it possible . And we already moving towards in that direction. Im afraid not doable. System is a system we talk about, you know, you want to give states of the United Nations was constructed on that principle of equality, but you wouldnt instructing. I did missions, we need you to us agree to come, some of which we have still not a member. And the more powerful in the less pos, and even within my next organizations, well, you can always shoot me july and my bank, the big economies are big lights. So in the international system, we have never be any practice them office based system and a possible always of so i dont think that is going to change much. In fact, if anything, what we are now see is a real question rather than in the session office, no democratic way of dealing with issues. Now, one of the most interesting discussion has been published by circle today is about neo colonial is indeed an effort to reassert your power as a way of preserving your someone say, unfair privileges. I think the russians are really trying to frame that struggle with the west than those tribes. They presented as both the own quiet for political and economic sovereignty, but also as an effort to create a more fairly, a more affair and international system. What do you think about that . Do you think weston has him on commissions law now and theyre very core was so just the last i said when i sit in india and look at a neighbor of china seeking to be an issue. And that is why i said that, you know, were in the one where our is the currency and in this on equal was now looking to come to see the global. So are seeking space for them. So i think that is the way i would look at, im the one today that the, the west has always been dominant for the last 200 years. But other countries have made this all of the major part of the soviet union, which is no longer there. But russia, in its own area, is a dominant china initial seems to be a dominant of somebody who lives up being a dominant, a big brother to our smaller neighbors. Its in the nature of International Emissions that the currency is all, and therefore the, the, the weak show on this fight against the strong. And when you look at the long run systems which continue, theyve done so benign market back says in terms of when i looked at one of these in terms of that section of intellectual property, right ritual, maintain service, you know, global inequality. That is one of the big one was fighting against when we talked about a new International Economic already, the eightys and ninetys, and many of us and the other big one wanted changes in the global system. We wanted of much want to put one system. But in order to that struggle continues, but if you look at the global does down says that its pretty clear that they are hurting the powerful chase and more even than smaller countries. Because the United States is no longer capable of maintaining its alliances. And, you know, investing in them to an extent that it used to do that before. I wonder if a more Fair Distribution is that not only is that of an ideological or moral, but the necessity of what in time. Because, you know, having your neighbor or your who even, and me get something that its once ultimately serves you as well because it creates a more predictable expectation. Dont you think that the time itself is calling for more and more Fair Distribution of both resources and power . Well, i think that is why many of us, if you simply, i do believe that the global system is evolving towards what we call a much diplomatic system. I think, you know, the saw unit on what you saw, my point on what the direction in which were moving and that is sent to you on the didnt go to the leadership and i believe was probably the real rush and wanted to let you know in the direction of a more money to pull up a larger number of countries play a bigger. I mean, it may not be well for democracy. You know, a small country, lets say like more of these and see may not have the same wise as india, its contribution to the Global Common good is smaller. I mean, the power is proportionate to what you bring to the table. Yeah. So the, the direction in which youre moving in my judgement, these are multiple us and the Current Crisis will accentuate that process. And i think the, the west or didnt United States, i think in europe has come to what example in the french talk about the multiple of system. If you see the speech, us all french a long day that they then they dont follow through on that on that talk with is good to begin the docs. A talk about being a monday. So i believe family are going to come to a started you initially see come to the center or and the whole we are moving towards the multiple in our system and whether the foster slow depends on the events like what were seeing right now. Let me ask you one last question and this is something that political analyst i rarely ask, that i think is absolutely essential to understanding the design, the spirit of the times. I think both russia and the west until logically, im born and most basic worldview where theres only one, you know, god, anyone dental, which i think gives them give that rivalry such an intensity and such a high school for demonizing, why each other india, on the other hand is this the culture which i assume comes with a different understanding of diversity. It sort of the structure of diversity, the practical value of diversity, as well as the practical value of power distribution. Because within your pantheon of god, you know, theyre stronger. God, theyre less powerful goes, but they are all important and they are all make the big county on. I wonder if these pulling the stick ontology could be more conductive to the multiple. And one that weve been talking about, especially in the new that is that to assume the leadership, the presidency of both the 20 and the some High Corporation organization is here. A very fascinating question. I think its also very important question because that was the way we look at options in the last 75 years that we have been that we are multicultural, most religious, multilingual, you know, in many ways many of them. And therefore we bring to reality thinking not just about ourselves, what i want to work. Unfortunately in india we now have already done debate between this pluralist tradition and a growing assertion or not majority is. And i think that some domestic politics, that is what was happening within the country when all of us would be in the list that you know, the, the slogan used to be unity in diversity down to the foundation of india and the list below our diversity. But construct our unity based on our by what i think thats the message of the new republican i hope that personality of india as a nation remain. So that the rest of the world, we have a message. I mean, i used to be just for dr. Munoz Prime Minister and he repeatedly make this. India plural nation is a National Diversity and therefore brings to the world and you will be looking at things and that is our son, and i hope we preserve that character on it. Thats only your string, but i think thats something that the world is very desperately needing right now. Mr. Baron, been a fascinating conversation. Thank you very much for your time. Thank you. Thank you for having me and thank you for watching. Hope youre again, well the part a with ah, with, with key at the ocean because keep the process is to dealer Money Company with cash, youll see a professional in the city and the one you prep a list of all with ah ah ah hotel used by Russian NuclearEnergy Employees in this up at rosier region, is attacked by Ukrainian Forces this sunday, according to local officials, no injuries have been reported. None of those workers were there at that moment. We will go live to our correspondent for more and not incident. Any moments also. Ukraine, president lensky staff, stop the rhetoric by the new killer conflict. He urges with western backers to launch strikes if russia goes so 1st against his face in spite moscow having made no such threat