Transcripts For RT Worlds Apart 20221016

With me. Hello and welcome to was apart. And hes out of biography, the Great American writer, mark twain describes being at the end of the earth club and witnessing its chairman, a retired army officer, pronounced that we are of the anglo saxon race. And when the anglo saxon, once i think he just takes it a central later, this attitude is enshrined in many americans, strategic documents and speeches of its politicians. But can i finally find it and in the ukraine, hopefully without the end of the earth . Well discuss that im now joined from australia by benoit comp, mark, senior lecturer in the school of global urban and social studies at our mit university. Melbourne professor is great to talk to thank you very much for your time. Its a pleasure being with you. Now, you are very far away from the focal point of this new confrontation between russia and the west. The confrontation in which references to nuclear strikes are becoming more and more frequent. I wonder if this distance gives you any relief because if things in the go Nuclear Australia will be among the last to feel the impact. Its a very nice question. Well, its a great question, but its a nice question and away. Because i dont know if you are familiar with the particular novel by novel shoots call on the beach. On the beach was sexually films made into a film. The 1950s in it ever got the actually visited melbourne, where based out of the moments now its never been quite concerned whether she said this the same as some american actress. But she had these wonderful lines of said, if this is a place to film the end of the world, this is exactly where we need to be. And the irony of the story is that of course, the novel features strange as the last place, rare radioactive fallout comes in the aftermath of the nuclear holocaust. So straight is last place supposedly where these things will happen. And in fact, its an interesting point to note that there are individuals from the United States multiple and a few other countries who are buying up places because they want to retreat in the event that might be a nuclear holocaust. Well thats, thats an interesting observation. And the reason i ask you this question is because theres a lot of gallo humour here in moscow and then just the other day, one of my military friends tried to reassure me that in the case of a Nuclear Apocalypse mostly is a good place to be because of the instantaneous death, you dont have to suffer it, but i think we can take it as a defense against the very green possibility that only a couple of years ago seemed fully dystopian. How do you think we found ourselves in this place after spending . So much time and effort and money on Nuclear Disarmament only 30 years ago. Well, i think the, the response to that question is based on a few things. One is i actually dont think the nuclear ship really went away. I think the, the threats of Nuclear Weapons is always been the threat of using them as always in simmering. Be its example pakistan in india that stages that space and throughout the acquisition example of Pakistans Nuclear capability. And i went india, quite a potential bucket on obviously need to acquire 11 needs to hinder one, what needs muslim and these sorts of things. But in the context of it, its not really gone away. We shouldnt forget, for example, that even before you know the attacks on the rock. So for example, the just and this by the way, the 1st one, this is the in 91991. When of course, the coalition, their lip of the United States has, by president george bushs father, George W Bushs father, his defense secretary then who, of course, ends up being Vice President with bush junior as it was when he comes to power. And later, dick cheney actually advocated the use potential use of Nuclear Weapons against the rocky force. Its never really gone away. So i think now its spin, articulated so a high extent because of the circumstances where whole desperation, calling rhetoric what it might be. The fact is that if one is in a situation where one needs to potentially, as you know, ways to save, you know, jangle a few notes in what this is, whats happening. I understand that they said these references to nuclear charges. They can be very distressing for some people, but there was a, during the cold war and that fear is actually very instrumental in politics because its keep the politicians thinking, ground the, you know, this is something that limits the emission and you make the point in your writing that there was a desire for quote, unquote victory over russia has become a succession and a fixation without the full understanding of what that victory may actually meet him in practical terms. As far as you can deduct from the speeches of politicians or from strategic documents, if the west could have its ideal way, what would that mean with regards to russian . So gets about question. Let me just put it like this. Your listeners may be familiar with an old monster, a store and hes no longer with us. He died actually no longer. His name is eric hobbs born and he was a very fine. She didnt and pupil of that complex negotiation between east and west and also the cold wolf course famous very much in the tradition of that, danesh english appraisal about, you know, the cold war, but also the 20th century. And in fact, the 19th century hes, hes very famous putting together this list of works, trying to understand these very, to miles davis last 150 years or so. And, you know, for eric holmes, when we make this re striking remark. But forget that the end of the soviet union was essentially the end of a stable system, a control system from triest in the west, of course, and then of lot of our stock. So, and that was of course, writing at that point when the soviet union that ceased to exist, the object of this kind of thing. And i, im sad to say that its reached the point where the fixation on the obsession was dealing with russia is such that they, and this is this kind of defeat obsession. And they want to defeat russia. And its, you know, as much as one can understand where people have stakes in this, its a very dangerous prospect to trying to talk about all our deceit and things like that. Because that may raise the stakes and other areas. But it also raises the prospect about what happens in russia. And i think that that is also very problematic with several levels. The fact that the matter is that, you know, people are not coming to this in good faith. And i know its very hard to come to good faith in terms of one battle and whatnot that theres so many people from various countries investing in attacking russia now that it becomes difficult to ness, you know, the idea is not to seek you know, a consensus and understanding about peace between your plan and russia. But the idea is essentially weve got brush on the run and this is what were going to do. And this is where things become very james. But professor you said a moment ago that its hard to sort of approach war in good faith, but im in the military science is a science. And i mean, at least in russia, and i hope when the west is approached from a strategic and tactical point of view, you have to consider your goals. You have to consider your means. You have to consider possible consequences. I mean, and there is a long list of literature by american writers and how you actually operate war, how you tried to achieve the results. And i sometimes get a get a sense that the american Decision Makers are what Decision Makers dont even bother about, you know, 2nd order consequences. Let alone something that may come. I dont know, 5 or 10 years down the line. Do you share that impression . Well, the, the few things you mentioned one of them is the science. Well, im afraid to say as yes, true, that had spin elevator, this notion of military doctrine to science. But suddenly it, instead of to make it more symbols are kind of a solid platform. You know, when it comes to military adoption and what i mean by that is that you just need to look at the writings of the trash and general stuff. So the old german stuff before so before germany was unified as defense unification. And there was a famous 1st martial, as famous general helmet, one motor actually said that. So you can of course, always plan you know, assigned typically as you want to say scientifically, you didnt quite use those words, but he said you can plan for every scenario. Wanted the best you can plan for any plans or as rigorously as you want your attempts scenarios, but on battle and in circumstances. The 11th happens. The same thing and in terms of strategy here, broadly speaking, the issue is to be wise enough to anticipate that there has to be leg group. Thats the point. And the, the issue here is yes. You know, i think its, you know, if you look at every historical strategy in history, these are usually strategies of all dictates. So the documents, when you talk about referring documents, they already data or to have the musty smell of the library of the archives. They dont apply for the circumstances that, i mean, i mean theres a consensus i knew, but then the very least that one has to consider. He can analyze an appointment and the rush at this point of time, is it at its strongest point militarily . Economically i was the claims socially than it has ever been. If the goal is to, lets say, we can rush out, or as weve been hearing lately, change the regime in russia. Why would the west wage for so long and then allow russia to accumulate that strength . And the 2nd question to that does, there was actually have the resources, its own capabilities, military military capabilities, strategic capabilities, political capabilities, to take on the country, the size of russia. Well, 1st and foremost, i dont think, and this is the general consensus. So, you know, very sadly when i say, i mean, broadly in the west and complex, the Strategic Community is that there is a perception that russia is actually not that school. And then rush raising typing week. I mean, thats all that the generals surely know. All the, you know, and put in is very good at signaling. He, he showed them what russia possesses in terms of hydro, sonic hypersonic weapons. And what have you, i mean people who are in the no, no, its the general public that may be led astray. But people who make decisions, they actually know about that. And my understanding of history generally, you know, there was the not in the context of the festival wolf example. It was said rather well by those who started to write about the dots too. Its thats the example the british army were led by you know, you know, they were led by donkeys, the lions, bring the donkeys so you know, in terms of strategic sense, i think you to understand your audience, understand this, the thing. Its important to realize that the general approach and thus this is the media cycle here, whether whether the thing private in august and i think what theyre doing here in terms of signaling you mention. But let me witness during segment that the singling is the opposite. Its the mirror opposite. Its russia is weakened. Russia does not have enough in terms of its weaponry. It does not have targeted weapon range running out of it. Its using now indiscriminately weapons that it has from service era. So thats, thats the context. Its happening. Yes. So beyond that context, and i think this is the thing, and i think that gets back to the question that you mentioned, which is very important. What is the ultimate goal . The also go is a weak and russia, and that raises all sorts of deep problems, of course. Well, but of course im sure you would agree with me. One cannot, we can rush by pretending that its weak. I mean, if you actually want to win over a powerful adversary, you need to be fully aware of the strengths and weaknesses. Ok, you mentioning something about a country that is, of course, very power. I mean food for going to say the largest on the planet, straddling the ration line mass, of course, from europe a to the borders with japan. I mean, theres no question about it. Theres not, its not that it can be taken that has to be taken seriously. But i think this is one of the reasons why it troubles me a lot. Is that a lot of the tactical and strategic approach to this is not realizing the fact that one rush or something to russia has genuine considerations in the context of the grand street. Yes, whatever. One describes in the context of aggression, the reality also remains that there was serious issues that were linked to the conflict. Originally, these have been ignored. Nato wants expansion, and they to wants to be globalized. And its role was just extraordinary and very dangerous to this. This is a fascinating point that let me have to explore in more detail. So lets take a very short break right now, but we will be back in just a few moments station, a for who is the aggressor today . Im authorizing the additional strong sanctions. Today, russia is the country with the most sanctions imposed against it. A number thats constantly growing with him when were were banding all imports of russian oil and gas, new g i. G with joe biden was in the sanctions on russia has destroyed the american economy. So theres your boomerang. Ah, ah, welcome back to wells appoint smith benoit compliment senior, lecturer in the school of mobile, urban and social studies at r m. I t university in melbourne, professor, come tomorrow before the break. We touched upon the prevailing attitudes. Im a western elite and it is my perception that when it comes to russia, they roughly fall within the 2 camps. Both want rushes, capitulation, but one camp is mindful. All am concerned about limiting the costs of achieving that goal to themselves, while the other camp are represented by, for example, your secretary said anthony blink. And believe that this is something that has to be accomplished at any cost. So the distinction between the dogs and the, the hawks is not really about what they are aiming at, but rather about the cost of that policy. What am i right here or do you perhaps see a 3rd . Campbell was somewhat saner and Decision Makers. Many years ago in the context of your questions. So just this is to give a background that even throughout, throughout the ninetys when there was this kind of sort of the euphoria but sort of the sense that things had changed. That the coal, as it was a sense of worrying about things in the world at all to they were very sharper madison observations made by various individuals throughout smith. Some of them, for example, like professor mir shineman whos made this point very clearly that in russia has its strategic interest that need to be respected. We even have, of course, the person, former state department official, George Kennan there is no longer with us. But he famously said hes the author as some of your view as might be to minute he was famously the all of the telegram in the 1940s that led to the adoption of containment of the soviet union. And he said in the aftermath of the, of the cold war and with the mutterings of the advance of nature that this was falling. This is very dangerous. And this, you know, added to the fact that the Bush Administration business bush, senior administration, of course, and many of the presided over the reification of germany and arrange of other things in negotiations with gorbachev. The promise is double made, then these fun, not binary things. Many individuals were parts of promises and assurances given to the russian delegation than soviet delegation constantly. If you accept these propositions and it was extra name by the way to go, but trump didnt have to do what is it that the late of course, he did out of the good will. And i think 11 of the factors that is not the way appreciative in the west is that russia actually support the de reification of, of germany. I mean, russia allow this to happen and it felt deceived afterwards. And now it feels that if it has to protect some of the lines that were formerly be the soviet lance or the ukrainian, unless it can do that. I mean, if you remember after the reunification with crimea specifically address the germination saying that we supported you back, then we count on the same historic justice from your side. But obviously its not coming you make that plan. This is exactly what i was getting out. The fact is that there were various gestures made on the stroke rate and that sounds good. Well from then theyre going to trust me when, when it came to the issue, the phone with the berlin wall and not sending and tanks and so on. I mean, these kinds of things, the and the issue of reading instigation was extraordinary. There was a lot of opposition, even in some european quarters. But the fact of the mattress it came from the kremlin and that particular point said that this could happen and so reassurances or undertakings were given. And then what happened subsequently, was that actually, you know, president bush seen actually just made the remarks specifically, oh god, there was a throwaway line. So the archives actually have that. They actually have these remarks made by individuals who gave those undertakings. And then in the scheme, and thats the danger of who press you know, that old greek being so confident in having a week in russia, the dissolution of the soviet union. That okay, we give undertakings but the circumstances have changed now. So, you know, youre absolutely right to acknowledge the historical role here and the fact that its, you know, and, you know, back to what you was saying with these 2 comes about, well, you know, we accept elements of the russian issue. But also there are those who want dental diction, but they have been those, you know, actually suggesting that this is absolute madness and very dangerous to keep assisting along the line. And its worth noting that many of those who do say that have been subjected to call its a black labeling libeling you name its, its very hard to get a debate about this in any career and context in the strategic communities, militarily and politically and west and circles, you mentioned nathan before, and i think we need to transition to that subject. I think there is a belief here in moscow thats made to doesnt actually want ukraine in because i think stands right now. Theyre already getting everything they one from ukraine without having any obligations without having they need to come to the defenses. They can just use it without any consequences. And i wonder if that makes this conflict even more dangerous because of all the a symmetry between what is sad and what is being done because russia, after all, you know, its subscribed to a really point of view and it doesnt look at the speeches of paula western leadership, but looks at what is being done on the ground, and if your crane is being militarized, if western infrastructure moves there without any formal association with made or its still a threat for russia said, dont you think that this way of sort of a proxy taking over in your crane is even more dangerous than that. You know, youre being part of nato, the treatment in line of what you are saying the treatment of ukraine is not. It reminds me of the way that other proxies, other allies in the context, for example, the United States of pakistan. The way the pakistan has been treated in the u. S. Constellation of power and stages. There was a pakistani general that explains also why the relationship is so tense between those 2 powers. The pakistani general in question said that were essentially americas condom and the dispose of us when they want to reviews this. So the you sauce prop season use this notion that ukraine will be slaughtered in and of course festival, any sort of slotting in theres not going to be a sponsoring. And its going to say yes, not even after, not even during this conflict. Weve seen individuals from nato and the general in a european and u. S. Strategic communities say, well come on. Thank you very much. Well welcome you in your i to say that this is becoming a kind of this, this proxy war where it so testing ground, its a means where its been used to try to get to russia. But it doesnt necessarily mean that theyre going to go full and full, ukrainian, you know, for the use of ukraine as part of the nature of the i actually dont necessarily see that a toll. And i think, you know, reminds me again, of the, the terrible tragedies happen when allies or individuals to that. But then at a certain moment, a band and its not, you know, do not look away from the fact that when it comes to set. And as you say, a real pow reality is realism and so on. It may well be that ukraine finds itself in the middle again, thats sensors. Now, you said also a moment ago that this warring spirit is fueled in part by natos. Strive to become global and on the psychological level, i think we can hope understanding, nipple and fantasy. But i wonder if if that is even possible. I mean, when we look at the americas own capabilities, right now, its ability to shower money on to other countries. Is it really realistic, given that many of americas own, alice look for example, and saudi arabia. Im going that all the way does need to have the power of the resources to become global at this point of time, regardless of russia, not as it know, it doesnt any box. Its a bit like, you know, and i cant say i missed the man, but i have to say that always find a very comical. But of course, the recently deposit boris johnson, the u. K. Prime minister, who at this idea of global britain, well, no, is not local anymore. I did say it was at one point, but certainly not. This is the kind of ambition for those sort of, you know, having hubs here and then having some kind of ambition beyond its limited borders. But because ultimately lets face of what was its kind to do. Its ultimately the north atlantic treaty organization. But what has happened is that theyve been trying to use the ukraine, russia conflict to expand its relevance. And youve got even, you know, bizarrely individuals such as the current is trailyn prime and stance. Beneath it rule of course wants to be added to the list. Some are, feels important, you know, wanting to add a bit to the ukraine, russia conflict and so what do you do you start jumping up on these particular things and not quite understanding the implications. Its the same thing with the the all cas agreement, the security arrangement that straight to the United States and the u. K. Signed declared in september. Okay, we know whos running it. We know that the u. S. Essentially is running the of it is essentially just, you know, the butlers trying to make sure that the drinks are served. Well, let me actually, let us finish this fun because we began with charlie weekend and with us, charlie as well. These countries in a very interesting position because it is far away from all the war theaters. It is safe, it wouldnt be the safest place to be in, in, in the event of a Nuclear Apocalypse. And yet, on the other hand, it seems to be very eager to do the us as bidding, not only with ours, but also with other formats, even though it comes at a cost of very profitable, very lucrative corporation of china and perhaps some others as well. What the rational they are, the practical rational law would the Decision Makers, but for, for the people of the continent not much reflection has been given about this issue astray has had a strange habit over the years of doing the fighting of the countries. Its one of these strange things, you know, the, the british have this net police lead unit the girl because, and i like to always upset that before i written about it and sent that straight to attend, to be the good sense of the United States. So their sense and these trends and government claims or tries to get some kind of added advantage from the United States by providing forces. But its never really clear also and should be added the fact that with this new agreement, we dont know when i say we know in the strain. We dont know in terms of how what the use of Nuclear Submarines what is deployment issue and so on. Its coming to huge costs to the chinese spreading relationship and a more independent thinking approach would, would change this. Its also worth noting, just on that point as a straight, its encouraged by us analysis essentially tends to sort of see the ukraine, russia conflict by looking at the way china behave. So its quite intriguing. So to me its, its quite designed some point the been trying to see the way russia behaves in ukraine to the way china might behave towards ty one. And again, thats dangerous because thats a potential conflict. Wedding to happen. Where a country that has no interest in dealing with that will probably get involved because of fairly adopt auditions. Well, maybe that will lead to migration of those multimillionaire somewhere closer to siberia. We would not mind that on this new professor. We have to move in there, but i agree with me. I appreciate your expertise today. Thank you very much for your time. So its a pleasure being with you. I really enjoyed it. Thank you. Out of think of watching this here again, walter part a ah ah, at least 3 people are wounded as a result of explosions in the russian belgrade regions. Missile Defense Systems have been activated to repel reports of things from across the Ukrainian Border thing in belgrade. The 11 people that killed and another 15 wounded a terrorist attack as a Russian Military base. It was during a life i exercised the volunteers training to find place. Also ahead i will never promise to renounce the use of poles