One year old from the us. All right, discussing next whether the confrontation of ukraine may have given birth, a new phenomenon of instrumental ice, uncultivated hatred in the region who that might serve its worlds apart next day. Ah, [000 00 00;00] with me only welcome to oil to part, regardless of its outcome, the conflict between russia and your brain built for years remain an open. The one between peoples, once considered themselves, brothers and wild fratricidal strife is as old as history. The confrontation over you bring may have given rise to a totally new phenomenon of instrumental eyes and cultivated hatred. Who doesnt serve . To discuss it, im now joined by thomas cross, professor of russian history, ab torso, lower Ranking University of sciences in budapest, professor coast as a chrysler. Thank you very much for your time. I appreciate the opportunity to talk to you. Hello. You have been researching russian and soviet history for a long time, and youve also analyzed it from the perspective of russias relations with the west. Why was this perception of russians as bloodthirsty barbarians isnt a new idea . Is it h i thought you started, this is an old idea. Yes. If you want to pinpoint the historical roots of fruits of phobia, full b x because i dont know how to go back to the 16th century. Just not just not the movie and stuff. Oh, good in that was the time when brush the came in a way arrival to britain died. That was back than the british empire. Dental yoga seed up by scenes that period. We have seen what risks of phobia emerged time and again, taking new forms and serving new goals seek at the by, invariably it have to do with the competition in the global arena, says great powers confronted his shoulder and thoughtful, all sorts of advantageous positions. Some the global scene. Ready by his other professor, crash as far as i understand any, anthropologists will tell you that this kind of fear and immunization of the other tribe is a natural phenomenon. It, historically, humans have always thought over, so says, territories and power. Dont you think that given russia size and influence . Yeah, its essentially inevitable for somebody to find a better match what you may, i, me and the same goes for cynthia america, for the et cetera. I mean, hes be as good as the it, you know, of course sold is different. So best have existed and will continue to exist. But we must always look for the powers that promote phase phobias. Did you for god course celia, we must see how much i hate the people of a cuban country or region experience, how fearlessly they are attacked bushes because most of these spelled s b are not at all like grassroots phenomena, not pre made. For example, i was in berlin a few days ago, and i did not see any anti russian sentiment when i talked to the people, yet nobody harass trash and speakers, but the valley. Oh though we know from German DefenseMinistry Reports again that there have been several 100 incidents or, or she including attacks and monuments and statues, etc. Well, this isnt a popular movement. News. Yeah. Or a no call crimson. Its nothing like what happened during the anti semitic pogroms because i understand what you mean. So this is a kind of have that have different true king. So will be a chris, a phobia is an organized top down phenomena. And it has always been that way. I know you used to do who yeah. So what youre saying is that from a natural prejudice which is inherent in all nations. So for me to just mr. So be as now being deliberately and purposefully transform into a tool for shaming specific goals. You come up with yes, this new type of principle bestbuy is part of the war and ukraine. You might, you know, but its a means to insure cohesion within the collective wes, to influence the population. Gladly more. But the role of the media is critical. You know me, you cut, you get channels like see in then bbc, it sat right on. Want to name all of them. Its all in there for to demonize russia. We can see every minute of every day this easy i was planning. So if i understand you correctly and your argument is that some of the best progress, if mindfully i say, i have decided to exploit humanities massey primitive instinct, i should be a good at why, what is there and game . He thought i would say comcast, i need to see a bit emma, who used to be you lap me, gave an example for the audience. And i did get the lizzie that be made. Yes, you will. In the e. U, there is a top official in charge of Foreign Affairs by the name of joseph burrell. Meely bought it o m o m o, he is anti russian to the corps and doesnt even deny it. And he said that russia must be defeated on the battlefield. No, boy, if need to be on horse, what is his agenda . It wont go. Why does he talk such nonsense . He somebody is a man of tremendous responsibility. Appro its go. What are we even talking about if you dates out for i heard him say that it dawn on me why . I was determined woman in her forties or fifties. Speak to shell on z d f and major sherman t, the channel david bro, grandma, i was yes, she was from the younger generation. Not the hitler youth generation. Ah, julia gun know what she sad was so baffling. I even remember her last name. It was gal go your amelia. I was amazed that a sentiment like that could be expressed in the very heart of europe. You have roku. Im not going to be. She spoke in favor of pumping ukraine with heavy weaponry. And her argument was that we should find the russians because they are a talking or a liberal and post modern way of life. You know, rosky is you. So this woman, another way in german citizen, once germany to fight russia in the name of european valley is national leap. It was nice. We will have a professor kress, my understanding is that this special has more than just a political dimension. It has also expanded into the realm of culture only nobody wants or yes, this is don, an order to serve cultural supremacy over russia. Thats why i gave you the example about german women. This line of argument is simply baffling for intellectuals to revert to some sort of racist or nap sci fi, or rising to cultural racism. It is, im think about, there is a massive risk for russia here as well. If it fails to handle these developments appropriately, just not that im very worried about rushes response. We must not go back to the 940 or 950 s back to the soviet anti cuss my politan campaign. Which was me, me got some, i mean, i think its an important thing to understand that under the banner fighting pagan, russia, recall of russias cultural heritage, including the heritage of the 19th or early 20th century is getting essentially cancelled or not thought. But let tell us that there are plenty of examples of this kind of it is happening. What could you tell us . Which one shot to the most of the data lead solely. But it was the 3rd tab in the base of liberalism. It charged me to see that it exists, but its got to say, i have a position and its not the official position of the youth. For example, natalie word though i expressed that position. The brewster. Not any fear the it was advanced somewhere on the fringes. If by one to say, i want the truth, i send for diplomacy in peace. This is a very simple position, but where can i make my boys heard you . Say you didnt have access to the media . You wasnt young boys to you one, find this sort of athenians expressed anywhere in the media, notting, germany, not in calling us, letting him know, you know, but i know what people actually think. Ive been to many European Countries lately. People dont want war. They believe in pace. They are against pumping ukraine with arms because these cannot be achieved that way. Miss the miss the meta mask. But instead of payson negotiations, weve got chris, a phobia or ukraine, a phobia. But it works almost the same way on the other side. Yeah, hes on his act, less noisy. Ill have to disagree with you here. Because i do not see this anti ukraine sentiment in russia, in part because we all have family in ukraine. Any god needs us. No. There is no ukraine of phobia in russia every night, no matter what the media says, we call our relatives to check how theyre doing. So they jesus, we worry about them all the time. So someone says this was easy on the russian people that to lie when we realized this is a heavy bad and i would even say great sin in some day we will have to pay for it starting up and get the blood to ignore us. Dont thought, but the thing is, the way i see it is that the west left russia no other choice booked book. Thats the trap to do it. There youre at least 4 actors involved rocha. Ive already talked about the authoritarian phase of liberalism. They claim that crush alone is responsible for the war that the conflict again and sample rate, 24. 00. And then you didnt double the war started way before that time, a historian. So i analyze phenomena from a historical perspective. They give you most of these more began, it made it, we operate the collapse of the soviet union. The idea of breaking russia park was a concept in the 3 merged in the early 990 s in the world, so speak me up, but its in schema. It was a security adviser to several us president s. I know i just since dan native has been expanding eastwards all the way seats worked with us, now we are witnessing the backlash. What never. I think there is something to this conflict we havent seen before. And that was the confrontation between russia and the west. Had indeed begun a long time ago that way before the 24th of february 2022 or that we have never seen any attempt to ban sikowski with o. C. S. He until now he of go. That was literally, you may have had the story about a 200 year old oak tree in to again, if museum, which was banned from participating in the european tree of the year contest in order to exclude russia, organic tree. That was any other way that i see, you know, i mean this is marana. Evade and wanted their avoid, or is there some kind of deeper meaning here . Is there an underlying papist, or are people just losing their minds . Went to law is, cant really, the goal is to control the population, the public opinion, many and to ready cade all other years. See years mostly through games. Oak has no right to exist in the west. Will. People will want to know why you, me, bravo, will be it over or under. Explain this, that you are a told russians are evil people. I said they should be punished. My li, are you, are you still not . Im not sure what it means. They keep appealing to the sounds self public conscience to the ideal punishment. So this is glen, keep trying to implant and to peoples minds. The idea that russians are some kind of barbarians in lucy, therefore, European Values must be abandoned in ukraine. Thats why they pretend that ukraine is a democracy. They keep using these concepts as tools with us. You see, while there are a number of democratic countries in eastern europe, just the majority, are authoritarian regimes. When hes done the, it is, she was holland, for example, or the Baltic States national a been my own country. Might you know what it is very important that is offered the collapse of the ussr pow. Suffice our ideology, little saying that we follow with the same Development Path as europe. Yeah, grow base, keep butchered as weak. Base is simply impossible. You cannot build a board, you. I democracy without a pro democracy middle class will just do this. Who is going to build democracy . Then . I thought it would be all the guards said without any culture from scratch. Dorthy, what they did was concentrate all economic power in their hands through privatization. Nothing more yet. We hear old is nonsense about european culture. Well, professor cross, we have to take a very short break right now, but we will be back in just a few moments. The june. Ah, shes got to do is identify the threats that we have. Its tracy confrontation, let it be an arms. Race is often very dramatic, development only personally and getting to this. I dont see how that strategy will be successful, very critical time time to sit down and talk with me one, come back to well support with the mass. Krauss, professor of russian history at the, at portion around the university of scientists. In budapest, a has a profession, i. Li, you mentioned the idea of the p linked to peoples consciences. Yes, it seems to me that the hallmark of russian culture is its complexity and absolute walk. I forgot on that as it appeals directly to the human. So it is not the only coach to do that, but that i said me, its this thing to feature in this one because the thought would you agree to these attempts to cancel . Tchaikovsky to kenneth and dostoevsky are intended to keep boisterous away men from russian culture. A good idea of the g, i thought, was the middle school good and easy like that the choice so that it can not touch their souls and let them see through. They have not only the rest, the phobia, the also the anti catholic systems, this is Tamika Barbara that basically squeezes the live out of people. Come see us in some would save money to humanize. Is us not with it that like im not going to, i mean theyre not be a good day for example, as that the germans woman was talking old. That nonsense saw the prism for olsen made a point is just the sad that one cannot ignore their deep and breach russian culture. Tony got dora, which represents the pentacle of human achievement, a bridge old dude. Yeah, dog. You have to admit that because every one knows that store and that so the harm is not as great as we might hear. People want, they filled their cecily, they didnt blame the west as over doing it. My som in the west are being over zealous in the way. They carry out the orders from washington and brussels. Yeah, you have it among the intellectually lead side and see any one trying to directly target for russian culture grow man, where you get to her. Some may not wish to have context with the russian scholars to find you might, you know to my i me, nick. I just saw me refused to chris palmed with russian and black shoals id sat for a dozen you there, but didnt need the hatred. Asthma dodson goes so deep as to warrant a ban on cheek coughs. Org tolstoy a low and then i dont feel that kind of sentiment just yet, but i called the number, but stoba does. Yes. But you might add us to the, you know, the package. Yeah. Jewel. So, you mean, it seems to me theres something home, a superstitious or richer lift. Think about this movement to cancel russia. That means you may remember the incident in sweden, when a concept in support of ukraine was cancelled after the swedish musicians found out when the bell alike, as they were supposed to pray, were made in russia bell alike as good counsel. How crazy is that . This is magical thinking in its purest form. They think they are somehow helping the ukrainians by doing whole is with old. Is russo phobia said can a russian, bela like, had the ukrainians in anyway bullshit. We get a bit of a hope that these superstitious approach will help generate more support. More emotional solidarity with the ukranian refugees. Guys give me bonds. Thats not true on your brow. We have been helping the ukrainian refugees since day one. We are helping them take russians are helping misaki people of all political views, old sorts of people are helping yeah. Those yes, yes. My da needed some money too. So all the hate against russians comes from the top. I used to that more, but maybe its just the way i see it, but there has been a lot of mystical messaging in the dialogue between the kremlin and the white house. When you go to the moment, for example, the 1st putin and biden bring up god, and that also biden said some time ago, the poodle had no soul, which was quite a strong statement because we really do think that this conflict when russia and the west is defined merely by the struggle for geopolitical influence resources is the right to decide for the nation. So probably the sides of the game will be or is it also a spiritual battle of some sort as well . Yes. On the teachers these things do not exist separately. But its very chilled the political envy, konami aspects all work together. But yeah, there is a global conflict going on in the us and the collective west one to restore there had gemini in the world even these up, but which is less than, i mean, give you a new do these, they need to demonize each enemy that poses a real trap, like china, india, etc. Got past most. Is there a new factor in some of the global saying, and nobody really understands them . Well. This is all about and new world order. Well, you see, nobody understands them, but i think in russia at least, i think i do understand them when you get to who can watch the motions, you know, have a certain inclination for mysticism you can certainly but so do the American Sports with them was sure we are really close in this regard. Well believe were the chosen people. So ill give an example. Clever than biden often denounces president. Putin to narrative speaks bad by the way, and biden is on a mission to fight russian only got you got deborah, he isnt fighting against capitalism. Like, i do know hes targeting russian oligarchs. Why isnt he fighting american . All the guards . Whats the difference . A budget or washing oligarch started bad american. The oligarchs are good. Koski only got hes got us. She and please as mr. C. As in its purest form. Miss me, how can one believe this is your right . One can tip one as a racial person. I usually go, its a matter of faith. You bring your mind letting me up, but i, i was struck by russian soldiers paintings that under the coastal sky, if its an ancient slattich latin meaning the us here at the ocean is that a 5 ounce can look like i thought i had my chad z m lucas place other meanings were a land nation and people die that im not, not a what eat by that it even denoted the human body in its entirety. I was able, nice here i had them would say for russians sits and next essential spiritual battle. And what about the west, when you might think, does it understand its not just about cream, that is much more than that. As a boy, it will walk aviation. I thought i suggest, but for a show going to ship, its delayed. You not all the, you see the people at large, havent to internalize this yet. Only some might understand the meaning called this letter. Go dog bud bilson, power. Hey, this latter is he in the day they are trying to ban it. Can you believe this low die . Beast banning a ladder, a place shine. How is it possible . Is that going to show this is the civilized world, so to say the west campaigning against the latter . Lazar bull was a issue. There is a joke saying its not a z landscape but your landscape crazy. So mostly you asked why does that that has shocked me the most grassy these has. Yeah. But as the look it up. But as you know, i guess professor crass there might be some deep meaning to this yell at him to pilot the romanian philosophy and historian of religion. Mere charlie, i take it to me. I thought of his study, the connection between geography and spirituality. Youre one of his most famous wax, is the sacred and the profane name of when the ongoing. He argues there that when a home or a land loses his cosmological meaning to person, that the persons body and entire existence also lose their spiritual and religious dimension wasnt his lynette boards. And the shy absurdity of yours in the way beholden us new sla. But dont you think that youve, bryant agonizing, the west of russia is fighting globalization lee. And the idea that a passage should be detached from the land from the history of his. And he says, well, the idea of being free and separated from the historical, cultural and spiritual processes are processing. Its not, im, im dia, globalization is the idea that you can be anywhere or saw in was with you if you put it this way is essentially against human spiritual nature, whose voice in an upper, its about ancient. The warmest give us no one, you know, you had, you brought it, you know, im a historian, so i speak from battle historical perspective. In recent decades, globalization has brought about some tremendously negative consequences for all of mankind or challenges ether from william. I think everyone agrees on that to day look again, but what was the response to these neal liberal globally as challenges e. Still moores love jack. The response seems to be that they decided they can bride a humanist and religious billings and use them as a pretext to wage a war that actually has completely different real reasons. Obviously jane was the subset this debbie there is this, is she of National Self expression in Eastern Ukraine . This is the real issue jane. Yeah. Not, not love us daughter. A start a new grade. And daddy, i live up grossi in as up and make for this is also true for western ukraine that i think russia never said it didnt want an independent process in ukraine with it was, it did not want the country to become a grand to launch. And offensive, but it does when you annisa my, they are and hushing up all of ukraines problems. Move up shows up on the group. I got over old. There isnt a single mansion of negative aspect, slight ukrainian that says in western propaganda morley. I have one last question about propaganda coincidentally about in his speech announcing the start of the special operation in ukraine. President putin called the west the empire of life, e y e o. Yet imperial, agree with them as i see it. That was a reference to preston rake and cooling the soviet union and even Empire Community to say that because i also want them to ring. And what i want to ask he personally, not as a historian, owner, academic, but as a passing guy we do you believe that truth is power reviewed that the truth always comes out sooner or later than would bring it back . Yeah, yeah. It yes the gala is lee. Yea, be honest. Theres like a king. If i were to lose faith and human kind 10 the truth my, my life would be meaningless as i did candidly without it. You model coastal, you model it by it that we on your domain still turkey. Thats why i dont think generalize concepts like the weston, the east star, my legitimate political. My are too broad a local but as he is up at the local. But as you must talk, when applied, they raised the diversity of the west, east and russia. They give rise to cultural braces, naziism, and rissa phobia anomalies. Instead, we need to analyze the existing global and regional systems. And if you want to, you eat your mas was not business. You also, you have to have a critical approach to capitalism. But i wish the best way to reach you, youve otherwise, its impossible to. So many crisis is a, whether today or tomorrow. Yes, the board is zaki or professor. I think we had a very spirited conversation. Thank you very much for that. Thank you. Goodbye. And thank you for watching focus here again on the wells apart. Ah ah ah brushes, Foreign Ministry safe key. Ive wilbur full responsibility if its found to be behind the killing of doria, duke and the daughter of russian philosopher alexander to moscow. Says if proven, it would have much to state for a journalist killing as being picked out by western media resulting in rather cynical headlines. Choosing to focus on mr. Dugeon himself trying him out of the driving force behind Russian Foreign policy also in the headlines got