Put the finishing touches to nuclear bomb. Fast forward some 40 years and the same actors, the same powers are at loggerheads yet again, this time in the ukraine whos president earlier this year. And now hes countries intention to develop again, its nuclear military capability. What the americans look away yet again, if its worth to undermine moscow . Well, to discuss that, im now in joined by a sub dirani, former director general of pakistans Inter Services intelligence. Mister dirani, thank you very much for your time. Its a great honor for me to talk to you. Welcome, welcome. So now you were in charge of pakistans Intelligent Services in the early 1991, the soviet union collapsed and a few years before that, im sure youre witness that followed the so we pull out from afghanistan when he now here western analyst compared the current operation to current russian operation, ukraine to you know, the previous one in of gas done, and some of them, i think, predicting the consequences will be the same that russia will be buried as a state in ukraine. What are your thoughts . Do you think those are accurate . Predictions are many bedrooms between various situations. But to find a sun anyhoo cream, i can think of a couple. Anyone coming through a fun sun wednesday so we shall the americans, our neighborhood. We used to colored shooter euclid lakes ted ford, one score ukraine, the strategic depth of russia. You called the near abroad because you know, the satellite nation who fell abroad, but all of us are concerned with what happens in your neighborhood. So we took a great risk the supporting the resistance agrees to super bus tolbert unit that america 20 years in case of you could and there was absolutely no doubt for the last 10 years. We have seen 2014. The 1st crisis that this has been declared as the red lane, understandably, if witnessed, nettle the note was. Next doors, it was bad enough that it does come that far. But this is now the work. Now if it happened, suddenly you couldnt, didnt become a member of nettle. Then i contradict the guide because because then it is a member of the alliance. And this inter, any, as far as moscows consent, there is no difference between them. Being officially a member of nato or not being a member of neither as long as the western weaponry is being provided into you korean. Now, pakistan, if i remember a bag and i, you know, back in the eightys, it was not a member of nato, but you know, the americans use it quite extensively for now. This particular case is just one difference. One could go in ukraine and other notebook entries have, as we have seen, cannot physically interview. But if they are, if it was, im a member, then i dont think i trisha could have related. But all the differences and similarities can we talked about. But that seems to be, to me, concern about your security parameters, independent of no concern commonwealth independent stage for cs. 2 of these things are creature so that you should go in. Ill tell you about as to well, can i actually ask about that . Because there are western and friends, perhaps only publicly, but thats the view that they are articulate to them. This idea of buffer zones on neutral stage is almost in a fraud. They always claim that smaller countries i entitled to their own ride in deciding, you know, how theyre going to provide for their security, or whether theyre going to outsource it to somebody else. Isnt that simple . It is because in their case they can afford to talk about it. For example, if you have a portfolio lunch leg now to invest in europe, this seems good. They dont need, lets see, the so called securities on or keeping the enemy or it. But there are countries or busses on their dos, then they have reasons for good control. Nowadays, the biggest worry about the refugees, about humanity. Grace is about is not because the water is broken out, was broken, our children years ish, water next door, sir. And sure if that is the reason they are panicking, one can understand relief songs. No man learns buffers. What do they mean . If you dont to you . Sure. If you think that you dont need it, you will say that you dont need it. But countries like i think i can tell, dont tell you about buying stuff. We need it very badly in the neighborhood, or least, and sage cash with, with the problem. Amongst many things, there is one element engaged mirror. That is, it is really heavy. It is not only because of people in the territory, but it also provides a little bore security to anyone who controls it. I think it was in fact, moscows in sensitivity to pakistan, security concerns and its, im about need to have ghana, stan as its own buffer his own against india. That latter your predecessors, to, you know, support the more jacket in against the soviets in afghanistan. In hindsight, do you think that was a wise decision given that everything that followed from that bush, i dont think the ocean or do, frankly you she, hudson, before that it was considered by the british as a buffer against the soviet empire. In our case, it became, you know, a buffer against the northern shed, but it also, so the other books and that is whenever we were given who was with india, 6571. And i remember to no book you in a junior or so we knew that gobble once every focus suddenly sure. Go on the east because we, we didnt have to keep any one of the rest because theres interest in boca, Social Security was about. And so to look after it now, the same border that used to be looked after by illiberal or the furnace 3rd. So cavalier would become, you know, the so called black borders, because there is a horse trade countries. So the said like america liked to ship that so that flag protection is also gone. I remember when this happened, when the service came in, i to 79 of us, not yet an intelligence, but the thing that was heard about that then was focused on now has fallen in the jaws of a nut crick indian, they use told row. And now the soviet and india for a little bit about the risk for that event that come because the scenario you will do whatever you can. But in order to get yourself out of the jaws of the net, correct, or is you put it, or you made a pact with an americans which later led to your participation pakistans participation in the american lead warren terror, which claimed if im not mistaken, some 80000. 00 lives and over a 100000000000. 00 in damage to the economy. And do you think that was worthwhile shoot, this is know the point to some people i own going to look and always us than what was the option at that time and said in the 79. 00 and whatever place wouldnt be it. Yes. And are 3 mainly that border become sick, or at least from a forum, fallen military, in this particular case, 20 years. Oh. So if we continue to do that, if the rivers are price will be to take to pay it, because in this particular with the rest of the world will at all say, in this particular case, virtually via fun, valuable. And the distance and bug is done virtually. We were all or neural hardly any one or said well come and see it. Now here is the money here, the rep as well. Some people may have, but why did something covertly so 20 years. If you have who have withstood their t, n a in the process now and can see a finest, then as again independent america diminished. Went away. We all considered that is to be a great success. You can tell them people, i mean countries be much more for their freedom. Dont tell me that people do not know how many people russia lost in the 2nd world war. 20000000. Theyre still type of price. Countries paying for freedom. If they dont want debate, fish, of course you can be of no colony. You can be an uncle boat, but is that choice really . So start either your are a free self sufficient country, or you are under somebodys or food because i mean the station in ukraine as difficult as it is, is also presented in those terms. Either ukrainians are under pressure or dictatorship of russia or their free in the west, but i think this station is far more complex than this. Yes, i agree, issue all was more complex. You snorted. The scene offered the people there to be able to resist that room to go, that we will not to become record of understand, for example, usually the so gordon lation, william firnbach lation, they have all of this collaborated with the so were stand that the british at that time and now with the american they have and they are very on their beat that the of back because in the process they were doing well, were getting money. No, the developer dear. These people are in trouble. So they will curse. The americans brought us more than the work that anyone is. But this is a paradox that exists everywhere. No, we do get a complete national consensus. This is what you should do. Can i ask you this question in the view of situation in ukraine . Im in the question of pakistans cooperation with americans because i think the ukranian president is now pretty open and vocal about not getting what he expected from the americans. It seems that ukraine outsourced it security to neither or thought it out source that security janitta in the americans. They expected the west to come to their defenses, and now they are being left one on one with the might of the of the russian army. Do you see any parallels between green and pakistan . This is a mystery. Cooperated with the americans . Yes. When the service will there do cooperated with us. They came 2 years later. The list and started with baggage the any i say my british shuttle. Similarly, in case of the sun, we may have given you some sort of a verbal insurance about certain things deep, dont revert, not cooperating with the medical people and then you work it and they should double game and front work. Well, it was a compulsion. We had to do something so that the italian mand remain viable, that the but they will throw them out to that is how these games are played. No country plays a single game, but because the game coming to the comparison her, if no good president of few korean thinks that hes been left, i ian ray, one can talk about, you know, along over the bad strategy that during this period he had the opportunity he knew what was going to happen, and now you can only get that type of sport and nothing else that the americans did not. You will tell them in dang, if they did, it took place. If the moscow tech, you remember, we will not be able to do it late, they could not delicious. When the cook, you better leave because were living, otherwise you will be late. So youre saying that this is a pattern on the part of the American Security arrangement that they use you as much as they can. And then they abandon you when you said it, anyone who h o choices look at some of the gulf states. So theres some exceptions to this role when the americans were true to that word, for example, that with israel, israel did not set away without american support. That we should know. Its a very powerful but ultimately the same strategic debt, dc in the united states. But is that the only country that there is a lucky except those people who are going to depend that they will go, we have learned it or not run after the other than the 71. 00 war structured with the nor 65 or, and 71 war at that day, the so called a sport back and they said we could not, not against it. So you have to look up frisco to go. Sure. Is there any we have to take a very short break or about well be back in just a few moments stationed. A hes got to do is identify the threats that we have. Its crazy, even foundation, let it be an arms race is on often very dramatic development. Only personally, im going to resist. I dont see how that strategy will be successful, very difficult time to sit down and talk ah with ah welcome back to where the for is with aside to run a former director general of pakistan, Inter Services intelligence, mr. Dirani. And you wrote recently that cant, that any country or any big country would react to their security parameters out her or in their being breached or being threatened. And i think security as well as in securities like beauty in the eye of the beholder. Its always relative, depending on many conditions. Do you believe in any sort of broader principles or in any broader arrangements that can provide not absolute security, but relative security . If not for all done, at least for lets say, some configuration, some group of, of countries in the region, youre sure youre right. Thank you. Were saying that there is no switch to the absolute quality this submit. But depending upon your environment, who are you friends . World your neighbors, you do try to workshop. For example, marcus, during this last 20 years, the effort was, if the idea is for get the americans out because therapy considered to be the mental it, not the ambiance reached out to youre on mending fences with them because there are some problem stuck in the journey theyre always good problems. I am a beneficiary of, you know, our people at that time g, creating bridges with moscow. I was there too. So trace, because we all believe that these 45 countries i used to you and call them again were 4 or 5. That very interesting common. The commonality of interest will take you somewhere. As long as those common interest will be at america, will there be work on that particular thing for the cooperative . We 1st got my still got no, there is another configuration in which no renewal. I mean again, theres no mystery. For example, for the last, for many years, the men rivalry was going to be between china and right sheesh and church i and i is getting friends from all over the place, especially the most important from the chinese. Now question. We are all friends, but we can also be helpful to in some extent, but not to that extent. If the owner student centrally share yoshika celia turkey, what they did in syria, the russians did so that vince, them also a certain space turkey human after it a shot on the election plane. If that thing was mentioned, that meant that your security concerns with the we the so called new great game is so important that we are prepared to forego or look, but of others mailer, irritant. Maybe so that on that point you can do mental well, so this is the only way that anal allowances on made some thanks the meal work. Very often they will lot because one will say no because of that we have a lot of new take on rashana report full were just small little sheet cream. Yeah. They are taken away. So that what, what is it because of that, that we must bought this whole piece new strategies, shalumi take place, some people call it means little work, little certain things happen and theres no one rich because they actually is so costly, so hazardous. Well, let me ask you about that because america and made a strategy are for a long time, has been based on their principle of deterrence that any country would be, even if theyre frustrated, would be too scared by the american. Our response that they will essentially put up with their frustrations and i think russia follow that strategy for quite some time, but until it was pushed into the wall, i guess. What do you think this russian operation with me until the power of american deterrence in terms of other countries defending their National Interests . Bitterness is unless it is so called full spectrum at all levels. Dick, girl, strategic the nuclear, the non conventional, even sub convention we received all guerrillas and so on, so forth. We also can talk about, you know, the financial immediately that, well, unless you have that type of lieutenant you vulnerable country like canada shoes may have plenty of our but everyone knows where the actually seizes read it as well. But we only have to say no more dollars, it will all be done and you on the rules are your then get better. So all those people are vulnerable. So there is no such thing as an absolute earliest like no option. But yes, there are certain cities, the nuclear data, for example, in archies can only see was from nuclear brachman. It was not reuse, but mere fact that we have it. That does not mean that we have achieved some sort of a security. No, it can protect it. Sometimes takes that because of this thing to me when become more insecure because of the money that was burdened, go to the server because of some people you know, said countries a layer the lane up against you. So that is the answer that are so it will be no come, lead the absolute ultimate day to let you just keep working in this direction. You try to cover your radius legs. Now listen to running. You just mentioned Nuclear Deterrent and deterrence. And if you go back to the ukranian conflict, ive heard some analyst in moscow suggest that one of the reasons Vladimir Putin committed to russia to this operation in ukraine was due to his unwillingness to allow the russian ukrainian strife. And theres been a stray for a number of years already to rise to the proportions 2 of the indian pakistani conflict, and specifically not to allow our ukraine to develop Nuclear Weapons which the intentions of which were announced that the Munich Security Conference earlier this year. And to the surprise of many in russia, no one said a thing about it, even though it is internationally accepted, that Nuclear Proliferation is a taboo. Is that a stranger, do you think, are this comparison bit when you know americans looking away when they needed pakistan is to the americans possibly looking away when they need the ukrainians to, to be used against the russians . Do you think the new career should offer you, chris . Yeah. Took place because of there will be a search for it or the controller was with moscow. So this will probably the condition on their wish board. One of the condition under which you can and became free to give a push Nuclear Weapons under the tudor tickle consumption, that bit of water where both of course, i suppose they would have a little more confidence in the to really to, to defer are there to so that was sure that was what didnt clear a bunch can do. In this particular case. Workers may have wished that they could not do anything. No. They cannot send Nuclear Weapons because that hasnt delivered they mention no one even in the united sheesh will agree with that. But the big factor they do not have to use. That means that that part of that is gone. If they look at the other way, you can develop nuclear puts they grew used to do that. In our case, we had a level of about 10 years at that day. In fact, when the unit shoots, you know, the person amendment came liverpool, 3 years, the old program was already completed. They start know, the bill. I mean, they dont start from scratch. They do have some expertise from the soviet union. The scientists, the facilities are the knowledge and as well as the, the americans who, well we in, nobody knows for sure the, the full story of these really nuclear bomb. But the, you know, we can make some assumptions. They are true true. I agree on that. If they already have it, that means that brute time that they would meet to complete their program may be less if it is going to be relevant in the ongoing crisis, the ongoing crisis now for 5 weeks and then a few weeks. And i suppose some sort of a will take my assessment to that it cannot go on like of other districts. There are 2 i, i want to ask you about the style of war fighting. Because if youre switch on cnn you, you will get an impression that the russians are just doing the carpet, bombing and exterminating everyone wears, we in rush and i as a worker respondent than siri can attest to that. We actually take pride for the fact that we brought a new style of war to the middle east that recall it swiss cheese style when you have opposition areas next to government control layer. Specifically, because the russians were objecting to use the use of heavy artillery in heavily Populated Areas which prolong, defied, and its prolonging the fight right now, the military operation. But you do that specifically to, you know, protect the civilians. And as i dont want you to take sides, but i wanna sort of ask for your advice as a military as an intelligence. And there also assume a person who dealt with military matters a lot. How would people, how should lay audience process this information . Because obviously from i think from the side of the west, we do see an emotional offensive and a clear effort to turn the brush again into a pariah and make putting into senseless murder, murder. But i think he is more calculated than that, at least in russia. As a country to is more considered of human life than usually its given the credit for this is the most potent or your ribbon that any country hash and out israel americus your superiority. That means you could call them the control the media. You were involved 20 years, you cant go out and they may have suffered badly enough. Understand this to media there that the seat has get in certain, but prowess and credibility and they can drum circles around to others. People they can influence in military. We call a psychological warfare. So if, because of that, if the turn around and the people there in the western europe in america become sympathetic to the ukrainian course, i can understand that because this is one tool that is available to them, the most potent will did with the best no one else we heard very, very good. We cant even compare with so so, so some of the, you know, campaigns launched against buggy started from a neighboring country, smaller countries. We dont, we cant do that because of that is a big, very big weakness. But the real stance were at the have, im talking about that, talked about the other strains which can be breached. But this one is very difficult because it is enclosed in peoples minds. So in that case they have done, it is only people like me, you know, i dont want to, you know, bad myself in the back. But having experience that once you find an accosted, a very full intensity, think going in one direction, you know, it is, are considered not automatic. People, not robert reporting objectively. In tracy journalism was the american way. There are entrenched ways of getting it done. So i could see that this is being a darker student. There are some other people who might come to that place, but mostly people will simply buy it off the ship from the mag. This was not like americans like to say that perception is reality. Understand what they say, but sometimes, you know, reality will manifest itself. I mean, its inevitable that sooner or later, whatever narrative me concoct is broken by history itself because its always stronger than any, you know, brilliant mind. I can understand that because we suffered from that as the best of our 1st. We cannot put that right. It is right. But just before you conclude, because i think the subject was more about to those strategic dept and the buffers and the ukraines it is such a bowler good meant that he went somewhere lake and cassandra is not a sympathetic for directions or for us or now where do you and he said, under the circumstances the best solution was to make you can in the bridge between east and west. Theres what we have thought of. And some very often, lately, people in by Noon Pakistan who do believe we do think that somebody has to read chartered for beast. Weve come to the conclusion if kashmir can be made into our model of cooperation, a final project that will be the best thing. So thats the value of looking after those very critical areas which new site can afford to lose. And that is where you start doing it is considered a formula. There are a couple of other things also that he saw a, lets call it the wrong formula. We have to live in there, but i am greatly appreciative of your wisdom and of your time today. Thank you, maam. Thank you very much. So it was nice to read and thank you for watching hope to start again next week on was apart. Ah mm. Mm. Mm ah ah ah, ah ah, we raised a corn and soybeans here. So some issues that are different this year than in years past is that i was all the things going on the world a day. Our input costs have almost doubled. Mm. Its going to be really hard for everybody to keep going and some will make a solemn world our current are laid. Doug treasures it is william a russia for that to your gas company is,