A hash and professor of human rights and peace studies at a soccer job, a Queen University and japan. Professor took a how . Sure. Thank you very much for your time. Thank you. Thank you very much for having. Now in mind deduction, i use this worth procrastination, which in the case of gaza has been the prevailing attitude in denying the palestinians the long promised staying. But over the last 6 months, its also been a way of stripping down over the most basic human rights of all the the right to leave. And i want to start by asking, what do you think makes it possible for israel to carry out as policies and for the rest of us to be sick and alteration, but to little or no avail . Well, uh, i mean, the problem of course is the decades and decades of impunity that the state of israel has been enjoyed. I mean from really, from the beginning, the early scientist, they sold a bridge and then later on the United States on the idea of creating the jewish states. Um, you know, in the line to palestine basically uh saying that they were going to act as an outpost of western imperialism. And so the britain did the british. And then later on we see the United States, of course, you know, they basically they, they bought it, they basically agreed to act as the protector and, and, uh, you know, to, basically, to, to, um, facilitate and allow and to be complicit and anything. And everything is real good. So, so thats basically what were seeing. I mean that its, you know, this is where we are. I mean, its been going on really for, really, for over a 100 years in actual fact. Absolutely. But the, in one of your articles here also suggests that this carnage and gaza may mark the end of this western allowed world order western imperialism based on the rules that are compulsory uh for the most but known binding for the west itself. Now this is not the 1st time weve encountered the natalie consequences. So west in policy of western patronage, as in the case with israel, what makes the Current Situation and gaza so much different from what we saw before. And ive got this done in iraq in this area and lived in many other places. Well, i mean like, you say west or who bought receives, hardly knew. And these kind of double standards have been really, really blatant. But i mean, certainly, you know, ever since, since in ukraine as well, i mean, its been so so blatant then. So in your face that it really has been getting a, you know, a, its been getting intolerable. I think to the, to the people of the world. But i think whats happened now is really just, you know, the scales have tipped basically. I mean its a cumulative effect. But whats happening now in gaza is so outrages. And so clearly a genocide, its a textbook case of genocide is one of my former colleagues and many scholars and called it and yet we see, you know, full throttle support by the United States. And by many of the European Countries, for israel its only, its only very, very recently and uh, and then after shoes amounts of public outreach. And after the killing of a, of a few european aid workers, its only now is that finally were getting to see just a little bit tiny bit of maybe theres a little bit of pushback from the United States and thank you for your opinions. But most people in the world have basically had enough, and thats what weve been seeing. Weve been seeing this huge outpouring of support for the posting and people solidarity. And of course in response to clamped or an attempted clamp down on the part of a lot of European Countries to try to prohibit uh, showing the solidarity for palestine to, you know, outlaw band these protests. I mean, its been really outrages, but its just the thing is its impossible to hide these kind of thing to anybody with the phone know, can see, it can see whats going on. They can, you know, theyre, theyre, theyre been faced with these video clips of, you know, of this genocide of the knowing about abuses and being able to do something about those and pieces are 2 very different things. I heard you say that the western attitude has truly been rules for the north for me, and i think youre truly speaking here, invalid the entrenched western, the leads who been standing died populations fables about how glorious and democratic systems are. Yes, without actually giving the people any ability to influence Foreign Policy decisions. And yet we are in a major electro here in both in the United States. I mean, the european union. Do you think this time around ordinary europeans will be able to affect the situation in any way through the votes . Well, i think they already are, i mean the europeans and if you know, in particular, the americans, you know, we look and see whats the, basically, the main reason the biden is slowly and slightly he had been changing his tunes is because hes seen that, that you know his full throttle support of his rarely genocide is losing him. Votes it could potentially, it could potentially means that he could potentially, i mean, i would, i would argue that its pretty clear that hes going to lose the presidency. And thats the, thats the reason that hes been changing his doing just a little bit and saying, you know, same thing, we see, and youre like, you very right. And you say its the politically is the elite in these countries. That is, you know, has been supporting is real and is, you know, full loose or lock stock and barrel with whats been going on. But really the people are sick of it. The people have had it and theyve, you know, theyre sitting there, theyve been, theyve been sending this message to the political lead that theyve had enough. And i think it really is going to change. But professor took a hash it again to blame the devils advocate. Here were seeing over the last couple of years in the United States and to some extent in europe that people may elect a candidate and that the leads to despise. But then billy to have that candidate to actually change the policy is very, very limited, and there was a lease of support. These are the largest, rhetorically. There huge vested interest involved. I mean, we are talking about and many, many billions of dollars and huge for how are you know that people do not a department. Its likely to be cynical about it, regardless of the south region. Regardless of the sort of subtle rhetorical changes in the american policy, why would the powers that be in the west change anything about their behavior when they still have the largest World Military under their control, as well as the library sofa. Its a National Financial system, wasnt the output to us here. Whats the motivation for here for them to do anything about it . Yeah, look, theres no question that the political system of, you know, pretty much all of these countries that im including my own japan. The political system does not allow for the voice of the people really to be reflected. I mean, we seen this time and time again, but um, you know, i am, uh, is it, it is the Glass Half Full or is it glass of empty . I tend to look at his have full and im a human rights guy and i, i think, you know, just as well when indeed i do believe that. But, and you know, its to say that things can never change is not really true either. I mean, things can change, things do change and they can change very, very suddenly in particular, in a place like the United States. So, you know, whether its gonna take 20 years, whether its going to take 10 years, whether it could even happen next year. And you know, i dont know, but um, for sure the writing is on the wall. I mean things are changing for sure. Now its not just this latest assault on uh, government. But i think the entire historical situation around the enclave that serves as the play to me all 5 of the Current International system which for decades lets face it institutionalized. And ill just impunity. But supremacy of uh, yeah. Might override. And i think to be fair, its not just the west and the leads who have maintained and benefited from it. Its also the rest of the world that pretty much a one to along with it. For whatever reasons i ask you before about the western voters, but i also want to ask you about people in other North Western countries. Do you think they may stop sitting on the wall and you know, demand or a fax, some change it is not for the people and thousands of them, at least for them, for their own sake or . Well, i mean, i think many of them already have, i mean, weve seen, you know, great outpourings of solidarity with palestine. You know, clean slew of countries and not just predominantly muslim countries either. So, you know, people have been, you know, in, in this just didnt most of the countries which we live in, you know, its very, very difficult for the voice of the people to be reflected in actual policy. And certainly it doesnt happen immediately either. But definitely, you know, the thing is, you know, we look at even, you know, even the worst sort of dictates are ships, you know, around the world. And the factors of the matter is, you know, even the most, the tutorial leader cannot call the shots without, you know, completely over the they did. They can completely override the will of the people, you know, they do know that, you know, the people have to have a say and when you have everybody with pitchforks outside, you know, trying to over the roof was trying to, you know, overthrow the government or at least, you know, sort of expressing their displeasure with whats going on. You know, they do actually have to you, they do actually have to have to change, they have to change their tune. And weve seen that over and over to assess it to have the caution. You mentioned the most outrageous dictators, and i think thats the tricky part of this whole situation because its easy to sort of, uh, uh, put all the blame on the so called a 3rd terran governments. As many western leaders have been on to sort of pro jack the negative behavior that they themselves practice on to somebody else. But the, in this particular case we have uh, you know, supposedly, uh, one of the strongest democracy is in the middle east supported by one of the strongest democracies in the west. And the other produces a very also project, if not to tell a tiring outcome. Do you think it may actually or has changed the way we think about those matters . And because, i mean, i have, you know, my own agenda here, but im personally sick and dont you know, this cliche and use of democracy and versus the top percent. Because i think those kinds have lost how lost the original meaning. They do not actually reflect the political realities rather than being used as a split of labels for joe political manipulation. I completely agree with you and i think the way, the whole way that we look at governance and the whole way. I mean, and obviously im an International Lawyer. So in particular, im looking at international governments, but the whole way we look at governance and how the will of the people is reflected in the way things are run. You know, this really has to change and you know, im very confident well change in what way you know, we have to see and we have to, you know, we have to be vigilant and have to make sure that its, its changed in a way which really you know, which really forwards true democracy and not you know, democracy that is for sale, which is really what we see in most of the so called democracy. And i would have that the will, the people are in a true democracy, needs to be not only reflect in, but actually followed because i think especially in the western system, you see people are people, peoples concerns. Im being heard in the pre electro contained and being exploited sometimes, but taking them and transforming them or putting them into an actual policies. Thats a whole new endeavor altogether. And im not sure its actually even feasible within the current, you know, western governing systems. Well, lets talk about it some of the time for the time being. We have to take a very short break. We will be back in just a few moments, stay tuned. The release of russian states never is as tight as one of the most sense communities in most all sense and up the must be the one else holes. Question about this, even though we will then in the european union, the kremlin machine, the state on russia to day and split the ortiz full neck, even our video agency, roughly all the band, the on youtube, the Payment Services for which question did you say, even closer to the, the, the, [000 00 00;00] the welcome back to the part with sol took a how shape professor of human rights and peace studies at a soccer. Joe la quinta university in japan. Now professor took a how she, i, youve been writing a lot about the Current International system, which despite all is rhetorical um, plat planned just to equality and International Law grew out of the explicitly on a quote on the predatory colonial system. And i think we both agree that the creation of israel as a zine est with the 7 to floss a year. Splitting denial of the promise state to the palestinians is a, you know, it is very typical outcome of that system. Its not an exception. Its actually being tended outcomes, and i know its a, its a question for i know both pissed by the price laurie and, but im going to ask you to anyway, how do you think this institutionalized injustice could not be if not the resolve done . At least reformed, practically reformed in many ways. Palestine is really the, the is really the mirror. I mean, it is really the embodiment of all the injustices of the international system. I mean, uh, you know, you, sir, you have a situation where you had, you know, you had People Living in a land in their country. And uh, you know, the interest of the so called International Community at the time. And keep in mind, of course, this is 1948 when you know, the United Nations are still very new and still very dominated by the western countries because most of the economies are not yet become independent. They havent get one their independence, but yeah, the, so you have the, so you have the situation and, and the so called International Community and you have the time they to they, they, they walk over and, and basically order the policies people to give over half of their country to these european columnists and its the steering problem is that they will get down on state. And i think at the time when this was being done, most nations actually, well, if at least including the soviet union, most of the nations believe that the International Community is going to follow on the promise rather than, you know, procrastinating for several decades. Well, almost a century now. Yeah. Well, i mean, presumably, presumably thats what the, the thought but, you know, look at it from the, from the get go. I mean, certainly i would argue that the whole mantra of the 2 state solution is based on the, you know, this is based on the partition resolution. The 1947, and basically this is, you know, a fund, this is the fundamental injustice still so called International Community trots over and says, well, we got a great idea. Why dont you give over half of your country to these european colonizers just just because we said so, you know, the whole sort of 2 state solution mantra that you hear over and over and over repeated ad nauseum by international. You know, our so called leaders, you know, all of this is based on a fundamental injustice a and you know, and, and thats above and beyond the point the, the, the point, the fact that these really government has basically refused to, to, you know, contemplate any kind of sort of solution and just kind of to say solution. And in any case, you know, the fact that its impossible. Anyway, the whole of the westbank is colonized with these real cause really, colonies calling colonies died over all of the land. So is impossible, any way, i mean, i really dont, i certainly dont, you know, i dont see that happen. Anything above and beyond the fact that its a completely unjust solution anyway. And israel is no longer suggesting that is going off to the, to stay in solution. What do you seeing israels primary motive at this time . I mean, i understand that you can get a sort of a to see through the online, but that looking at di policy is from the outside. What do you think theyre trying to achieve . Well, what israel has been trying to achieve what design is to have been trying to achieve since 1947 has always been clear. I mean, theres never been any doubt about this. Its been, its been, you know, we want all still said we want to drive out all the palestinians failing that. Were going to kill them all until we manage to do that. Were going to maintain in apartheid system which maintains the dominance of the jewish people over the palestinian. And thats always been the case. And you know, some scholars have called this a slow moving genocide. You know that the objective has always been genocide. The objective has always been to drive the palestinians out. You see all this kind of talk about, you know, this is the most the right wing is really government is in history and, you know, nothing yahoo and all the sort of political shenanigans and surrounding himself with sasha. So yeah, all of this is true, but you know, the fact of the matter is that is really leaders. Ive been doing this since 1948. Nothing has changed. And if the, you know, were the international, the system of International Criminal justice, you know, were this working in any way, shape or form then is really political leading. Theres not just nothing yahoo and not, you know, these fascist now, but is really political leaders. You know, since at the very least since 1967 would all be in the dock because they have paul further war crimes and crimes against humanity. None of this is none of this is you know, a secret all of this is out of the open. Absolutely. I and im sure we both agreed that this level of impunity and the empowerment on the part of israel, of what would have been impossible without the use military aid and its diplomatic fielding. But at the same time, you mentioned that uh earlier washington at this point of time loses more than a gains or from uh israel, because uh, back in the uh, forties into 8. His israel could afford to do that because the United States needed it as a, as an outpost in the region. Nowadays the jo, politics has shifted and i wonder if you see any potentiality or for washington, either living israel to its own devices or perhaps turning against that. Well, certainly i see that possibility. I mean, i think thats a very real possibility. And you know, its hard to imagine now when you like you say, when you look and see whats, whats happening in washington. But the fact of the matter is, you know, israel and, and another 1st person to say this, you know, israel is not a strategic asset. To the United States, im not even sure it ever was, you know, but right now israel is a strategic liability and thats, you know, thats very, very clear. You know, people say, oh yeah, uh, you know, is real is are only the americans pro is really american. So i always realize are only ally in the least. Well, the United States didnt have any enemies in them, at least until, until is real d as rallies and designing this organizations approaches really, organizations and it supports and it has, you know, it has this network with in the United States. And then a lot of the European Countries, the things they see the writing on the wall. Thats why they are reacting in such a violent way. They will not argue, im not even talking about the violence of massacres and gosh, im talking about, you know, within these western countries. You know, if you look at this, this furthering of the, of, of this, of this notion that, you know, any kind of criticism or the state of israel is anti semitic and therefore must be stamped out. Must be prohibited and outlawed that. Any kind of, you know, joining of the boy cod of this, of israel is anti semitic and should be, you know, against the law. You know, theres a, theyve been going crazy with this, you know, over the past years and they do this because they see the writing on the wall. You know, i, i, i was when i was a young when i was younger, i lived in the United States as, as, of course, obvious from my assets. And you know, when i was growing up the notion that in American University there would be anti, you know, is really a parted week and there with the, the easy demonstrations against ignited cit, the american ally of is, are doing just inconceivable. And now they have this, you know, they have these demonstrations that have these, they have these events, you know, all throughout the United States. And thats why these relays had been reacting so violently. Thats why the zionist organizations have been, you know, threatening to cut the funding to these universities and all these kind of things. So they see, you know, thats why they, thats why theyve been reacting in this way because they see that theyre losing the. Now i dont want to do railer and discussion too much. So i, im going to both only one question about it, but uh, you mentioned few cream before. And when we look at how the ukrainian problem sort of was created, i think there are lots of similarities with israel, the patronage system and the ukraine. Sort of reaching out for military aid. You know the far right or fascist attitudes, the idea that the United States would have an outpost that it can fully control in, in a strategic part of the world as well as this outcome of the strategic alice post. Now trying to sort of rack the dog. If you understand what i mean, do you see any similarities here . Do you think in strategy terms, its a similar scenario or reaching out for, you know, for the patronage off of the greatest power of the greatest policeman in the world and then trying to manipulate it to its own aims . Well, i think, you know, i think pretty much all governments try to manipulate the stronger the stronger governments. And of course, the americans are the ones that are most open to manipulation. But certainly theres a lot of imperial overreach on the part of the United States. And certainly thats, you know, thats part and parcel of all these problems. I knew that includes the ukraine. Of course that includes whats going on in palestine and all throughout, you know, all throughout the world. Basically, you know, we have this country which has military bases, military presences. And last, i checked this and with a 160 countries, something really a range of stay on the same time, not providing its own. Uh, women with Maternity Leave, state paid Maternity Leave it say yeah. Or you or your health care. I mean, you know, in the fact of the matter is, you know, most americans use the vast majority of americans and people who are not, you know, independently wealthy. Were not 1000000000. Heres the fact of the matters americans live in, or they live in fear of losing their job because the workers have no rights whatsoever. And you can be fired at the, you know, the, the wisdom of your boss. Um and uh they, they live in fear of losing their health care when the 2 are connected. Of course, because if you lose your job, you lose your healthcare. This is a disaster and theyre afraid of being, you know, were going shopping and being shot at by some crushes, im crazy. Lunatic with a gun. So, you know, this is, this is, you know, this is the situation in United States and the thing is, many, Many Americans see this now they see, you know, they see that their tax dollars are going to the military industrial complex. Theyre going to, you know, their, their proxy states like israel, at the expense of the american people, they can not only see what actually still is in their own lives. The few you brought on this issue of necessities, of ordinary life and respecting those necessities because it was preparing for this interview. I discovered to my big surprise to, of the being a human rights lawyer is actually a very practical profession that its not just about, you know, condemning some are still retiring the readings. Its actually about thinking through and advocating, negotiating dignified lives for the people who cannot do that on the, on their behalf. If you were representing the palestinians before, i dont know what some high authority, what kind of questions would your race, what kind of, you know, origin or real life issues that needs to be addressed for the palestinians to get there. And you to have that basic human rights to be respected and also for peace to have a lasting chance. Because i think these 2 are also very insignificant related. Sure, sure. No, they are. They are, theyre basically 2 sides of the same coin. You know, despite the fact that all these, you know, all the International Policy makers tried to disconnect the fact of his really apartheid and the fact that was really oppression. And then the constance relations policy and writes with the prospect of the political solution and just shows how, how, how bankrupting the whole system is. And fortunately, i mean, look, you know, i mean, shoot me a nice lawyer and every pretty much, every single internationally recognized human right is, is of the past and people are violated. You know, a systematic basis every single day impulse thats, thats, thats what it is. Thats the situation, but 1st and foremost, you know, we have to look, i think, got the right of Self Determination. This is the 1st, the 1st right, the right it, thats the way did in the 1st article of the 2 International Company and sent human rights. It is the, whats called sort of a platform, right . It is the right of all right, just the right to have rights to sort of, you know, paraphrase are. And its, its, you know, without Self Determination, without the ability of a people to decide on their own political system and their own political future and to manage their own resources. Then you know that any other kind of discussion of human rights is, this is going to be futile because theres just no way before and occupier for and colonizer is going to respect any human. Right . This is not going to happen. So, you know, really, the main point here i think is the right of Self Determination. And, you know, from, you know, like i mentioned from 1947 at least, you know, many, most of the injured so called International Community, or at least the ones in power have acted like theres an exception to Self Determination of palestinian exception. Self determination, if theres any kind of good to ever going to be any kind of lasting piece, you know, this really, you know, shoot me a human rights protection and potentially protection of Self Determination. This really has to be at the core because otherwise, you know, were just going to see the same thing over and over. Professor, take a hash or we have to live in there and spend amazing talking to you. Thank you very much for this conversation. I thank you very much. Thank you very much for sending off for those who cannot send up for themselves. Well, thank you. Thank you very much for holding. And thank you for watching cold sarah. Yeah, honey, was a part of the, [000 00 00;00] the when the Worlds Largest democracy votes the rest of the planet watches in emerging multi polar world. Indias voice matters. But who will be the power behind watches, almost 1000000000. 00 people decide and billions more, react the we started out with the breaking news. You runs dancing his lowest, the retaliatory attack against diesel ply, firing drones, a mess, all of our targets in the country. The people on the streets of israel, ive seen desperately wanting in such