you probably don't want to watch it because it might just change the way things the the hello and welcome to cross stock where all things are considered on peter lavelle as a sign the west ukraine proxy war on russia is not going as planned, a new narrative is making the rounds. it's called the korea solution, the end of active hostilities and an armistice. keep in mind the side considering enormous seeks to avoid complete defeat. we all know which side that is the cross sucking ukraine. i'm joined by my guess, ray mcgovern in raleigh. he is a former c. i a analyst and camper. we have larry johnson, he's a managing partner for burg associates and a former cia analyst and us state department counterterrorism official and in brussels. we have gilbert doug, tara, he's an independent, political analyst and author of memoirs of an ex pat manager in moscow during the 1990 s gentleman cross type roles and effect. that means you can jump anytime you want. and i always appreciate, i want to ask all 3 of you before we go into the, the main part of the program, your reaction to see more hirsch's article on the united states planning, executing and destroying the north stream pipelines rate. you 1st in raleigh. i'm shocked. i'm shocked to go ahead with john brennan said i was the russians but he said it was the russians. it was kind of hard. it was a stretch to think they would blow up their own pipeline. but i thought was the rush is not turned about. i'm just shock peter. i can't say anymore. now. ok, i have very jump in. what can you add to what? ray is already so i can maybe there isn't much more to add. go ahead larry. i would i train to the very top secret. see, i cite in the united states and believe it or not, they actually had a gift shop and they sold items in there that carried the slogan to admit nothing. deny everything, make counter accusations. and that's exactly what the, the by the administration is doing with sy hersh his revelations. they're admitting nothing they're denying it. and then the q cy, of being an adult, the old man who gets everything wrong, ignoring the fact that the man is, he's a ledger in the, on the legend. going back to me like ob, grabbed to the revelations about ca, spine on americans and assassination plots the go mar, explore it just goes on and on. so i always gets his figures right. and i actually sent him yesterday further confirmation. turns out that, that dive center down there in panama city is also the headquarters for a certain 3 letter outfit that ran, i used to work for that there maritime branches base there. so the story is true and it is an act of war by the united states and europe as i understand it is completely shut down the story, but no, no, well, that's where i wanted to go gilbert, you know, it, you know, the europeans are mom on it ok, they got a got a blip. ok. you, you know you. hershey stuff is, you know, he's a legend. what he asked to say people pay attention to with good reason, but it's already fading away very, very quickly. go over your thoughts. go ahead. well i read versus article i was the best journalist. busy and remarkable retail. and my question to myself was how did you get this? where did he come? there's no traces for obvious reasons. however, i can say this morning i received from who is the o sir translator, my 6 my. my wife takes him to german, has his own neck and his whole countries, for one of his friends friendly, who told him that he was thinking of making a report. similar to what hersh has done last course, there were this is where the substantial element they're using to do this based conversation. yes. where the german who took part in the same lecture cited in the summer. and you over listen to one or 2 of the divers who explained you framed from making this public because he had no basis. and he didn't want to just flow as a source for obvious reasons for harmony could come to his friends. however, the overall story. bully corroborates one person. so i'm satisfied, i'm source, i'm, i'm satisfied to, and anyone that has any curiosity should be satisfied as well. but of course they will be complete denial and no investigation of this. that's what we expect are now to the main course here. right. i mean, i seen through some of the mainstream media, so a little bit, some independent stuff, you know, they, they're, the solution is korea, we need an arm and says, we need to freeze the, the battlefield here. considering to find out that the americans were lying about blowing up the pipeline here. why would the russians even consider and any kind of negotiate negotiable that would include a sci fi or an armistice? your thoughts go ahead? well, they won't, they won't consider that for the nonce. but let me just add a footnote to the seymour hersh story. the real story now will be where this really can be kept secret in european circles, and particularly in german circles. germany is the k. there stood all our choice. well, president biden threatened to destroy the pipeline and he did like, you know, like bird rabbit. he didn't say nothing. right. so this is a battered wife syndrome. now. yeah. and there are, there are no germans. i think that i have have enough information and discernment to say, well, wait a 2nd, now our industries are fall apart. we get real call here at our apartments. if this is true, how are we to look at the u. s? so i'm saying simply that germany will be to k, it will be really interesting where they can hack any more courageously the ok but, but you know, right, you know, right. we've always have to deal with the germans are too strong and too threatening, or they're too feeble. and they're not eve. and now we have a new category. they're just plain stupid. ok if they just continue to go along with this. sorry to be so blunt here. larry, i want i want to talk, i want to talk about this korean thing. ok. you what do you think the chances of that happening? because, you know, have history serves me well. i mean, the side that is losing once an army is not the winning side, but go ahead larry out another. if the side of the desperation, they're starting to take hold and washington. because i realize that they've they, they've made a bet that they can't deliver on the, i'm sure that burns the ca director didn't propose that. and i think that probably put in a lot of fraud had to look at each other and go, is this guy on drugs, you know, you can't be serious of russia has finally, i think, awakened to the fact that they can no longer trust anything that washington or the rest of europe says any deals any proposals in negotiations are, are not to be trusted. they can't be relied upon at all. so i think russia wisely will reject it, refuse to accept that will press on with the smell of terry campaign. and which is ultimately going to lead to the defeat of nato. that's so that's what's at stake here. gilbert way in on that you heard that with larry just said there. i mean, consider we had merkel alon now we have this article by seymour hersh. you know, i mean, this is, these people are maniacal, i mean, why would anyone entertain any kind of fire or negotiations at this point? i mean, you, the only way you can get your way is creating political facts on the ground with european said that last year. yeah. this is going to happen on the battlefield wall . yeah. it's going to happen on the battlefield. gilbert go ahead. like introduce something i'm doing on my own. i'm taking it up from some programs very respectable to progress on washington in which people who are experts was sincere pages. our technology finding his position were right now and raised the question. who knows exactly how this new war is war and you can see it with absolute certainty, any outcomes under the circumstances. i don't see any such a game the coming pairs. i don't believe it was the fact that or is on the list. i'd like to like something this your goals proxy, where it is not proxy war between the hours that we have proxy, we're getting the korean war. we have the approximate work in syria. however, there is a significant difference in what we now see in the russian frame. and that is, this is a war on russia's territory exactly where by the russian legislature. therefore, it is unlike any proceeded for russia, it is an ex essential fight. whereas a previous proxy worse, we're not okay, well, re weigh in on that there because the, the, the way things stand right now. if there was, let's just entertainment that there was an armistice here. that means the data would turn the rum state of ukraine into some kind of fortress to continue the complex. i mean, no one in the right mine because i would agree to that because it, nothing is settled, nothing will be settled. if there is a cease fire, go ahead re. i love the rough us 1st and foreign minister of rough shed before 5 months ago. that geography has changed the russian calculus tripe, y bars, and other rather long range. missiles, the intention to pacify, occupy, and incorporate done, boss has now widened. now they have to go farther, and now go, father and father. i think that pu chain would prudish prefer to stop other nipper and deal or will say, and they'll be have to be somebody to deal with and somebody that realizes that coaching he go all away is the time to make the deal. it will be 2 months from now in my view, but will be real at o, be up to the, the benighted souls in washington, jake sullivan and blake, and then the others who will have to realize that they're smoking their own hashish, for god's sake, they actually believe they can well when they can. and secretary austin is just doing what he always did. he what he did when he was chief of said come haste, falsifying the intelligence. it's blatant and it's stupid, but all is fair and love in war. yeah. well, and in and out why, why should the directory of american foreign policy change all of a sudden ok, a road record of, of catastrophe. gentlemen, i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on ukraine state without it ah, ah, ah, the jagger's archipelago home and the chickens giggle. garcia, the largest island in the archipelago, is now the location of a very large u. s. military base. you can call them mad a u. s. government to make a military base and just defaulted or juggle some people from their country. so they call it returned back on the island. no, but we are fighting. that's what i'm fight real fasting for the right. so i, we do not consider that the right to self determination actually applies to the trickle. since i don't the question of self determination, the legal advice we have received is actually the trickle. since we're not and are not a people for me, it's done to move on and see what we can do for the child said community to return back home. there is no us to support from the nomination. i commission african united nish. i don't care about chug or send people lou needs to come to the russian state will never be as tight as on the northland scheme. devastation american goals house on meek, within the 55. with keys on that is 2000 speedy, one else with of ban in the european union. the kremlin media machine, the state on crush up to date and split our t spoke neck, even our video agency, roughly all band to on youtube and pinterest. and with this museums are important for preserving our history so that it is at last to future generations. but our fiscal museum spaces themselves a relic of the past. this is one of the best museums in the world that from a touch and st. petersburg, how prophy is the director here and i bet he has met. welcome back to cross sack where all things are considered on peter belgium and you were discussing ukraine. ah. okay, it's go back to larry in tampa. you know, one of the larry, the, one of the problems i have in looking at reporting on the conflict and, you know, a whole, the whole spectrum of opinions and all that. one of the things it's dismissed all the time. is that why this happened in the 1st place and rushes, the security demand? see, we can talk about a cease fire got arm, it says we can talk about geography and we can talk about all these kinds of things . but at the end of the day, russia got into is because it's because of its security demands, and it will only stop when it has met those demands. it's, it's pretty simple here. yeah. but gilmer made an important point with respect to the proxy wars. but what makes this one so different is the outer complete demon, the zation of all things russian. you know, in the past, during the cold war. now, during the cuban missile crisis during vietnam, the united states could still find a way to talk to uri and drop off or to land the garage in it. and there was still, there is no complete rupture of dialogue between the 2 countries are still recognition. we needed to talk, ah, that is gone at the, the, the, the presentation of russia as this, the demonic authoritarian dictator designed to take over the world. it's psychological projection on the part of the united states. because if you look at the history of the last 70 years, the only country that has been consistently involved with expeditionary military adventures overseas and killing foreigners is the united states is not russia is not china. and so that's what makes this difference. and this is, this is a, the ultimate existential threat for russia because of the west has its way. it's going to. busy carve up russian to least 5 pieces and rape its resources. yep. and gilbert, one of them greatest mismatches. and all of this here is that is i've stressed earlier that russia's ultimate goal is to secure it security. but the west, it's messianic. it's ideological. ok, i, i'm glad larry brought this up. i mean, it's a huge, broad brush russians, russian culture, russian history, the works, everything it but it must be annihilated. ok. and that's the mismatch. because the russians are saying it was something completely different. we have security demands . you ignored them, this is what have we warned you over and over again. now this is what's happened and we're not going to stop in to we meet our goals, but the west doesn't think in those terms. there's thinking in terms of ideology, go ahead. gilbert. well, the, the russian issue here where there's this camping had a 2nd dimension to that i told by our security is a national switch. and that is the russian identity of the non boss in the population . there were 2 ends in this korean style cease fire. what do you have to say on the side is that they achieve one of their 2 goals . they said was on bus. they captured 20 or 25 percent of what was formerly the ukraine ends the most. busy economically valuable part of the ukraine. they same space on their co nationals in a way, $990.00 cuz they were unable to save their co nationals in the baltic space simply for low military and economic string. they have that well, then they will have it any case they will have achieved one of the 2 goals. the greater goal is your identified. it is a purely pure security. and that is in terms of halting nato, turning nature back and rendering the job. but gilbert, let me go to re right now, stopping nato halting nato for now. so that's why i said, that's not going to compute. that's not the result. the russians will accept because we all know that if the ratio lensky gang stays in power, it will be continued to be supported by the west and the continued nato infiltration of their farms of forces. here, i don't see that's a tenable outcome. re, peter, i think i need to inject the most important tectonic shift that has occurred over the past year. and that is that china is in full support of russia here. that when poetry was ash on october 27th at battle died. why do you think the americans are taking on china cho, he said, you know, i thought there was some subtle reason behind this, but no, i'm convinced that they're crazy. his word. he said this is a function of arrogance and feeling of impunity. yeah. but that, but that's because of the i agree with you, but it's because it's idea logical for them. ok. i mean that goes into a different realm of, of logic. ok. i mean this is, this is a messy on the adventure on their part. keep going re, well, i don't like the word illogical. it's straight power. it's, it's, it's a leech thinking that the us is still exceptional. we haven't learned that lesson yet. what my point is simply the reason poochie can be so secure and so confident and moving west as he is about to do is because he's got china at his back. he's solidified that exactly a year ago. people don't get it. least of all the people running our foreign policy . larry way anyway, re just said there, because the there is a huge shift going on right now. we could talk about di dollarization. supply chains are changing. the relationship that india has with rushes is getting better and better. i mean, this is the, the west is closing itself off from the world. ok, and it's last the last straw. it's military. i mean, if the u. s. was what is allowed the dollar to be. so compromise, i mean, that's the death of a super power. larry the washington in particular. but they are there, as well as the rest of europe, had painted themselves into a corner and then tied a plastic bag over their head. and believe that somehow that this is going to result in victory. what, what, what the war in ukraine has exposed, and i think frankly, it has surprised russia that never anticipated that the west was so hollowed out in terms of its ability to replace replenish, military stores, particularly artillery shells and other weapons of a bit there. i think there was an underlying assumption that the west actually had a pretty robust industrial base. yep. and what's been exposed as that's gone, that is, that's history. this is, this is not world war 2, where the united states factories roared into production. they are struggling to produce it in one year. what, you know, ukraine is shooting and one week in terms of artillery shells, so that it's been a terrible miscalculation. and yet, despite that, nobody is coming to grips with the reality that from a military standpoint, the only thing the united states has left in its quiver are nuclear weapons. and even then the prospect of using those nuclear weapons successfully is, is, is problematic. so it is the united states is getting got to come to grips with the fact that it is not the power that it once was. yeah. they just jumping the go ahead, playing the roster. the question of industrial capacity is really a function of thinking of his notes, or whether it's much worse they would enter. and the war is now growing up in ukraine, has been the course of that war, has been decided by the russians not by the made it not. and it's the back area where the western industrial capacity is woefully behind because that was not the kind of war, but they tend to be fighting whether that shows really. and as a question, the russians have this little bearing on the potential. gretchen, risks us when one considers where we go. if we, if there's an escalation line, us nato versus russia. the assumption in our newspapers is that the russians will go. and that is because the whole west underestimate what russia has done in the last decade to build a very powerful conventional exactly system that is extremely important. also, in the case of the hyper sonic missions only we hear about the think any the existing and aircraft systems. there's another dimension to that, which is more important as we go forward and consider the russian, can the russian boss about response to an attack on premier named naming. they were down for us basis in europe and how the assumption years with nuclear draw. the dentistry of one of their hypersonic missiles on a silo underground, silos, soaring munitions in your brain that the, the fire, the devastation power of one of these i percent missiles is best within that warhead because of the laws of physics. nash, hey, i were rapidly run out of time. now you re, you are nodding your head. what it when you jump in there, go ahead. i just wanted to support what gill is. shane agree completely with him. that's the dangerous thing. nuclear aspect. as for the conventional nato generals don't usually agree with gilbert, dr. all. but just this past week, the top general said, you know, we, we've missed, we should explicitly, we may say misunderstood. estimated who we've got this wrong. it's scale, scale scale, and we and got it. and the russians do hello, that's what's good on when in ukraine, and the only question is when the us and nato's back is up because the wall while well biting. b. com. good. i got, i agree very. we gotta wait, we got 30 seconds. larry is caught read or like to say do the military math. 30 seconds, my friend. go ahead. yeah, the, the united states is exhausted militarily. right now. doesn't have any good options . and or the russian offensive, i believe, is actually already begun. this is not going to come. it's under why it will expand from what it was. all we're looking at the defeat of nate and that some to be in the west has not come to grips with. yeah. okay. well that's a really good way to end the program. thank you. my friend, that's all the time we have. i want to thank my guest in brussels, tampa, and in raleigh. and i want to thank our viewers for watching us here in our tea. see you next time. remember, cross knuckles ah, with water was to be thought on. i mean, our hatamio was how your ship with a hair dresser, a bus driver, sales person, anyone could become a victim that sail private negotiators 1st appeared with a woman who can speak with us with a, a september. the reason why you're bored yet, but that is my mind that on the global dilemma is we won't be feasible mentioned on from the yet to be yet studies pointy. took over the said re me cooper this. yeah, this is him with little that this quest was it would go this week was to say good a ah ah, who's south african president is marked by the political opposition as he delivers his date of the nation address. that those, he declared a state of disaster in the country over its crippling energy shortage it un peacekeeping forces kill 8 civilians and wound almost 30 others in the democratic republic of the congo after protest. or spend it outright about a lack of progress in combating terrorism. in the region and powerful explosions from a parent, drones drugs are reported in major ukrainian cities destroying electrical power