To settle the situation with. Let me pull to i think your yellow. I think your yellow card analogies is a very good one off. My thanks for throwing that out there. Im karen. I wanted to ask you quickly in the wake of the lord stream pipeline or sabotage, malicious called it, what it, what it is. As we understand putin said today that he has been blocked. Russia has been blocked from the investigation into the blast to the notion pipelines. These pipelines belong to russia, and yet russia has been locked. Why is russia being blocked from investigating damage to its own pipelines . Because they dont want to reveal the who is responsible for it. And this actually could be extremely interesting because it may be an act of several nato members against other nato members. And that is that, thats very exciting, historically speaking. So well see what happens. But im sure they do not want any exposure. They want to be able to control the narrative very closely on not on this situation, or a current crit house, v retired us air force attendant car on the right screen there. In the middle of mr. Scott ritter, former Us Marine Corps intel offer. So and of course off med mustafah from the, from that of the director of the age of Center Studies and translation to all 3 of you. How i enjoy our chats. Thank you for joining us. There were naughty international have a very good evening. Thank you. Hello. And thank you for joining us or an archie international. Plenty of things you may have missed waiting for you right now when i was he telegram and archie dont ah, [000 00 00;00] ah. Hello and welcome to cross stock where all things are considered on funeral. About 1st it was the north stream pipelines. Now the bridge connecting crimea to the russian mainland both have been sabotaged. Both can be considered terrorist attacks on infrastructure. There can be no doubt moscow will react, but how and against whom ah discuss these issues and more im joined by my guest here in moscow. Maxine susco, hes the director of the center of advanced american studies at Moscow State Institute of international relations. And we have to meet your bob, which he is a political analyst editor, and you know me, internet Media Projects are generally across top roles. In fact, that means you can jump anytime you want. And i would appreciate. Ok matt. So kind of put this all together because, you know, we have 2 major sabotage. We have the north screen pipelines and then we have the bridge connecting crimea to the russian mainland. These are infrastructure projects, civilian infrastructure. Though, obviously everything can be dual purpose. These days, we still havent seen a major direct reaction from moscow. I think theres a tendency here in moscow is for a strong reaction. But you know, theres, theres a big difference between scoring points and achieving goals. And i think that the, the dilemma that the russian side is looking at all of this, obviously to one degree another at the behest of the United States, tony blink and saying this is a tremendous opportunity when it comes to the pipelines. And then we had ranks, of course, the minutes after it was reported that the bridge been attacked. Thank you usa so we can connect those stops. So none of us are going to make any a bit of decisions because were not in a position to do so. So your thoughts on how this is going mass with, i think on both of the attacks are important in 3 ways. One is see symbolic attack in the sense that, you know, especially the of the attack on the crimean bridge is supposed to happen. I think was it was, it was a plot it to happen on hootons birthday and then we, weve seen reports to something went wrong and it took place the day after. But, you know, the case of the north tree, of course its, its a, its a symbolic attack on, you know, to stop as american officials put it depends european dependency on the russian guess. Its also the 2nd thing, its an attack on the symbol. Both the crimean bridge and the north trim have been a symbol of russian power, energy, power, geopolitical power. And the, you know, bombing them was an important act of sabotage or act of terrorism. I wouldnt, you know, perhaps go as far as suggesting thats exactly what it looks like. And finally its, its, its a 3rd way its, its a, an attack on an important security chord. You know, this, you can try me on bridge. Is an important logistics route for the Russian Troops defending crimea care song, and that is important in the wake of the plan, the premium counter offensive on that region. And, you know, the north stream is an important element in the russian energy, security and most important perhaps for reviewers, European Energy security. And not the software is that mostly in europe will end up in the ultimate losers here. So, you know, as they used to say back in the day we protest who is, whos gaining from all of that, whos getting from all set it up perfectly for you . Well, i think that basically we should use abroad. I mean, the damage from the beach is mostly psychological. The railroad connection, reestablish the oss after the explosion that the smoke had been parkinsons evening evening, such a date or k truck to be carried by ferry for the genuine state of these reach for a long time. So that damage is more to say, i want to look at the role that i was in for and why stephen walk minded, rush, defeat would be america program, and there is a monster in this article who would profit. Let me quote. Stephen wrote, the ukrainian victory was strapped on the same political course. United states could use the counterproductive excesses of the unit for iraq. Im a conservative and then b liberal procedures will grow. I mean, finally, in order to success, 30 years or favor and the quote that i think is not because youre going to, people are not going to write a, you know, be technically technically unable to get the amount of rush and guess that the could get you know in case it no, seem to and austin of on stayed intact. Right. So these find this one is i go and the ultimate benefit are people i want to profit from it. I dont know. Could you send me broke receipt . Is they, i use ingredients in the same way they use Syrian Rebels in 2011, 2000. Well, this is not my thought, i read it the review and i agree with it. So we know that these forces are destructive and when americans and europeans are asking the question, why is it that china india, lots of african countries, the middle east . Why are they so reluctant to russia . Well, precisely because the big just in case of this, so you bring in big st, will be in the know conservative and the broker see this will destroy them. You destroy my career. And theres, theres a particularly when it comes to the bridge max, we have to say the obvious in this is what made a lot of people here very angry at russian territory. I mean, its happened once, is a going to happen again. I mean, and i think all of us are in agreement that you know, we will never know what happened in nor stream it usually happens. Ok, we think because that would be the investigation of the powers that be the noun will never be held accountable. But i mean, this is begging a reaction and it seems to me, this is my own only opinion. Is it, this is like, particularly with the attack on the bridge, its a fundraising event to show you know, the ukrainians are taking the initiative the, the, that the russians are on the back foot. Its a way to keep ukraine top of mind. Ok, because i have no illusions about the outcome of this conflict. Ukraine will be destroyed. Ok, the utterly destroyed it. Just how that happens. So im sorry to be so cynical, but you know, it, you know, ukraine was top of the headlines again because the attack on the ridge is already been pointed on this program. Its already operating hours afterwards. Your thoughts mass . Well, i think. Busy you know, as, as isnt important or whatever youre training an official, some policy makers think and take action or stance. A secondary here. And i think for more rational policy makers is also kind of secondary in the sense that was important as to see the signals and the reaction from coming from washington. And i think weve seen some change in that position over the over the several months here. As we remember back in the day when the americans for suppliers ukrainians with high mars the state department, try to, you know, highlighted that the do not endorse attacks on the russian territory for say, you know, and only those weaponry would be used against the russian positions on your training territory and things like this. Now now well see some actors behind ukraine are either openly cherishing those attacks as the ones coming from the baltics or making pretty dubious. But pretty clear signal is coming from washington that they actually appreciate an approval attacks. Now what will make of that is an attempt to and at the same time, the same people speak about the dangers of the russian escalator rhetoric on the use of nuclear arms and stuff. But the same people are actually in my view, pushing the conflict to a new level where, you know, the attack open attack on civil and infrastructure is no longer a taboo. And actually are inviting russia to launch these attacks. And, and that, i think something, you know, if you read a couple of weeks ago that we havent actually started, i think, i think she actually meant that not the use of nuclear, dr. Jackson. But exactly the things that russia can do, the damage, the russia can do, conventional weapons disrupting the logistics and disrupting the civilian infrastructure that would disrupt the communication of your printing intelligence, all kinds of things. And i think those attacks are actually inviting a mosque to do that, whether it will follow the passage. Of course, the big question mark that every policy maker in a low cost is not american is you know, this is pure cynicism here. Uh huh. Im going to ask you a question that a lot of people are asking me after the attack on the bridge. Why are around, are you kidding . Bridge is Still Standing then . Well, theyre already coasted. Russia was suggesting to destroy the radical position to retaliate. Well, i would say that since the russian army, since president would have not yet agreed to use such methods, i think its a radical position because again, this is something that americans belong, understand, you know, the view this war. So what between american ford evidence for us ukrainians in distinguish across, i mean, in 90 percent of the cases, if you agree in person came to worst was russian to me. Hes russia, hes a russian would be so i would be able to tell maybe this would be someone from the south of some of them. Most of people speak with the corrections that then people come from to year from different control. So for us, this is not an issue. These are not eats, you know, these people are exactly like us. They have been just separated from us for 30 years by 4 star media. I will pick up on what the max is just said, you know the problem with the moral, with the moral side, all these actions. I mean, this isnt right now. How did you react to this explosion on the gray me reach during which 2 civilians die . Absolutely, innocent civilians. Ok, we still dont know. The truck driver was a comic garza was just used by the great special services but to people and it was mr for the next reaction. Crimea preach. This is the stop, isnt illegal, has to be destroyed. Everything your grading crashed. And so the moral of these people there ethics is exactly why that gary raynichol morals over there. 2020th century. I know just, you know, explain and said a, you know what, you the same, wait for the current american shipment for the leadership of the u. S. In the house. Could you see you tomorrow . Even if you defeat the breed, even if you explode the breed, just if you just rob the appliance, if you kill a lot of people, lot, c b s. Were nothing to do with the what. This is all more or, you know, if you have to humiliate, you know, to a russian needs, they say, you know, road good. You, the american can. So just want to play. Well, will these people ever since this is the sign with andersons political sports. Okay. And that point were going to jump in here gentlemen, were going to go to a short break. And after that short break will continue our discussion on some really stay with our team. Ah a ah. Well to make the cross stock, were all things considered. I peter, well this is the home addition to remind you. Were discussing some real news. Ah lets go back to max here in moscow. Were all in moscow on this edition of the program. You sent it earlier in the 1st part of the program. These are, i dont see the attacks on the, the, the pipeline as and the in the bridges are some kind of strategic defeat. I think its more of a, of a media storia, as i said earlier, to keep ukraine in the news. But you know that the, it, theres a certain point when a foreign country back by a very strong country, the United States in this country, in this situation. I mean, this is an attack on your territory. I mean, this doesnt that call for a declaration of war. I mean, weve gone from the special military operation to something else. I mean, is that going too far . Is that being in patient . Well, i understand those who are calling for the declaration of war and you know, talking about the need to, you know, full mobilization, all kinds of suggestions at the same time. I think since this is a clear publication and says since this, the methods for this probably cation were picked in pretty radical way. You know, its clear that the crimean bridge has been defended by a strong and here defense system. So they chose this quite specific to put it mildly way of attacking it to, to, to make a damage. So this clearly, as i said before, invites a russian to, to immediate, kind of need your reaction in a similar fashion, which i think is not going to happen. I see there is a difference between the same similar attacks on the Russian Military base and syria by i sisters back in the day, one russians immediately a launch. You know how a fire on their positions here is a more strategic and more kind of smart dance here. And obviously before the investigation is over and the russian one forestman under knows what exactly happens and whos behind that. I think the retaliation will be picked in a more cold blooded manner and not necessarily amendment need to press the issue here because with great fanfare here in russia, they induction or new regions republic into the russian federation. Ok. And then, well, crimea, is it not russian soil . Thats when message is mosque. Im sending to these new republics. I mean, the deal was you both were going to protect, you know, not why the devils advocate here. But i think that part of the calculus on the western side is to intimidate because i strongly believe it. Ive been saying it per month. And thats one reason it explains the special military operation. Its its pace. You liberate areas and you convince people. Yeah, were going to protect you. Were going to stay here. You dont, you know, were not gonna run away. Ok. This is a tax on the bridge is sending a very strong message and i think thats what a lot of people are saying. Are you going to react to this . Im sorry to be so hard core as they say, but i think its part of the discussion. Thats actually no, i dont disagree with that. None of that, i totally think this is jason. I totally think that its important for the people who voted to rejoin join with russia is to, to send a clear message that v r a defendant and theyre not going to be banned into or, you know, so in the 100 the bus of the Ukrainian Military absolutely, so in this sense. Busy there is a need to as well, not switch back, but i would say its important to not pretend as if nothing has really happened. You know, i agree with my, with my colleague, mitre here in terms of going to Strategic Communications that havent been much disruption. Its more symbolic of the same time, you know, because this is now being picked up by cranium propaganda and the western Mainstream Media. Theyre trying to spin it and you know, double down on the cleaning contra offensive and the rushes and retreat. And that message has stayed there for over a month. Now i think that that is dangerous in terms of shaping perception and you know, its feeling cold for fear in the people. So the need for action on the russian side is definitely there. And i believe some changes are being made right this minute, including in the direction of the Russian Military operations in the, in the defense ministry. So it a, me, we, weve had reports on endless number of reports over the last few weeks. I mean, i max and again, gave it a good introduction. The 1st part of the program, you know, its a certain weapon systems they wouldnt send to ukraine by no troops on no boots on the ground. You know, we heard this in, weve seen how we, this is a progression. Its Mission Creep here. Now you have the, the main broad sheets in the United States, gleefully talking about the cia footprint in ukraine. I mean, this is kind of again, this is kind of flaunting it in front of a, in front of the russians and were involved in this me, this is what really worries me and all this ridiculous talk about russia using Nuclear Weapons. There has been no talk of it here. Its only been an invention in western media, but nato, in particular, United States, or a co belligerent no matter how you come here and with these high profile attacks. I mean, at one point in time, rush is going to say youre, youre, youre a co belligerent here, and the, and this is the escalation that all of us worry about. Go ahead. Well, i am indeed warrant by the american reaction. I dont believe our president would use Nuclear Weapons or i think hes being miscoded. I mean read, hes called, well, we will use all weapons, a search committee. Apparently he didnt even say the want nuclear. Im worried about the american reaction because look, well the United States wants to it there. So there are always certain stages. You know, 1st a small war is for all the one between iraq and wait or something, then the least demonized like, oh hes so dangerous. Hes absolutely crazy, can get inside his mind. He can destroy the wall. So the American Public is convinced that these person needs to be taken out of the se, and then they stops. So we have almost all them here and im very concerned. Im very concerned my general trust you already on a b, c, you know, on the prospective what would happen if there were nice these things . Would you use us Nuclear Weapons . He said that we will take out the game is terrible. What take out all the Russian Forces are here and, you know, to review their writing more terrible things. There will be a cyber attack when russia paralyzed them, they will find some conventional lisa, you know, the right need, dont they show their cards . Are they showing their cards general portray is, i mean, his reaction destroy the black sea fleet. I mean, i dont know what he was talking about. I mean, a complete lot of them. So certainly a reflection of the caliber of thinking that is in washington. But this is all you can do, right . Also re, ukraine, drums out of the year. I mean, its really, they really show with what this is all about. This is about force reaching change in russia because when they talk, thats why they introduce the element of Nuclear Weapons because your brain doesnt have them. So this is again, pivoting to a, russia is the, the phone of, of the United States and nato, when theyre not officially belligerent in this conflict. Go ahead mass. I think at this, at this point in time, all of the parties involved in this conflict are facing pretty hard dilemmas are choices. Weve discussed the choices that the russian leadership is spatial right on the one hand to respond to the other hand and still maintain some level of adequacy as opposed to as opposed to counterparts. Ukrainians are on the on. There are also, you know, so you have zalinski resuming, hes talking, coming in venting a dirty nuclear bomb, something that perhaps partner food and back in january to, to launch the attack. But also you have, you know, massive counter offensive on several fronts and the casualties, Ukrainian Military suffering, which is never going to be discussed in the, in the western Mainstream Media are huge. Theyre only talking about the russian casualties. And you have certain interesting things happening. I think in the american political lead, where on the one hand, there is a need in the run up to the new terms to show that fighting has at least one issue on control. That is, you know, rationally printing conflicts. Whereas its bipartisan bipartisan. Absolutely right. And the agenda he came with office is now under, you know, is not there where there is no Foreign Policy for the middle class that, that is because there is no control of the migration issue. There is no control of the installation, things like that. So they need to show that at least one thing, the most important issue for american Foreign Policy. Now, this crisis is under control and you know, the Administration Knows what to do with it, but the way they are also quite restrained in the way they want to, you know, approach this conflict to not track us directly there, even though they will read drac to the United States in the nato allies to that conflict. And theyre showing their support by sending even more dubious signal, says the ones that secretary blinking made in relation to the bombing of the crimea bridge and more stream. Things like this, that all of that doesnt really sit well in moscow and creates the impression that the west is absolutely. They are not just coming for food, but common for the destruction of russia. And that in a way is conflict. 2 or more, you know, dangerous extremes in a very, very, very way, quickly. I mean, obviously even rapidly running out of time, but i mean them, i was barely alive that i was alive during the cuban missile crisis. Neither one of you were. But we are in, if you know the history of that conflict, which is there are similarities and theres some differences. And, but this isnt cuban missile crisis kind of in slow motion. Ok, except for its on rushes. Your step in before and q that was on americas doorstep. Theyre in there consciously aware of this in kind of detailing, uh, what max i to say here. There says, you know, you want to make, you want to inflame the conflict as much as possible without being drawn into it. But we see how Mission Creep is worked and every single conflict in recent history. So thats why im very, very concerned, because i hear theres really loose rhetoric from the United States and its official them. But this is the cuban missile crisis in reverse. 30 seconds team go ahead. Well, i think it so it wasnt that you will be so crisis because during the cuban missile crisis become march or adequate leadership in washington and the communist and i go and you will already already know staff, you know, people who are involved in that crisis told me that she was out with 2 years later by the 20 bureau. They blame him for almost a well, you know, the state now is all in danger because they didnt want you to promise not to join nato in the near future. So it was not even regime change in ukraine. Yes, it was the case in your you know, what character, i mean, we have run out of time. Want to thank my guest here in moscow when i think our viewers from watching us here to see you next time, remember across cycles, ah, a kid and engagement. It was the trail. When so many find themselves well support. We choose to look for common ground. Ah ah, we will take serious step to provide an adequate response, can measure it with the levels of threats to what russian federation. No one should have any doubts about that because i am a person compares ukraines actions primarily in crimea and the bowl, the regions to that of terrorism against russia, warns they will evoke a pass response. And the remarks combat structure conducted and enormous missiles strike operational ukrainian tockets, including military command centers and Energy Facilities and from the white house