R t dot com and well be back in 30 minutes. I ah ah. Hello and welcome to cross stock. Were all things are considered. Im Peter Lavelle. Nato faces a dilemma. Member countries are divided on how to proceed regarding ukraine. 9 countries want membership for ukraine immediately. 21 member countries disagree. Then there is the issue of what exactly ukraine is today. Is nato willing to liberate the regions that are joining russia . Ah cross sucking natos dilemma. Im joined by my guest, jo, laurie in washington. Hes the editor in chief of consortium. Nustar. Come in new york. We have margaret kimberly. She is executive editor of black agenda report and in lake jackson, we have daniel mcadams. Hes the executive director of the Ron Paul Institute for peace and prosperity. Right . Cross sack rules and effect votes. That means you can jump any time he want, and i always appreciate, daniel, let me go to you 1st in lake jackson with the of, if you agree or disagree of the 4 regions of ukraine or are about to officially be brought into the russian federation. Now considering that nato is at war with russia, but it was a, with the session of these regions. The script has been flipped, so theyre not depending ukraines borders. Theyre trying to change rushes now. And then i want to talk about all of this very dangerous hawk about nuclear weapons. Go ahead, daniel. Yeah, i think what were putting, practicing here is, is maneuver warfare. And obviously there are plenty of people who think there and said, i dont, i dont, nobodys thinking i can only observe what ive seen. But it seems to me as if the reason this was supposed to military operation, the beginning is that president did not realize that this would be a nato versus russia war as you correctly point out in your introduction, peter. So hes been able to scale up his response to natos increasing involvement. The introduction of heavy weaponry, the introduction of direct targeting by nato. And i think that forced him to go to the next level, which is to agree to something that he had disagreed with 1st quite some time. Remember these republics . Certainly. Some of them that don best wanted to join russia back in 2014 and put in with not interested in doing it that time is forced him. I would say its lead him to make this conclusion that to establish facts on the ground is the only way to respond to the fact that nato itself is a war with russia. Hence, the sort of the beginning of partial mobilization and the end of any pretense that this is a Russia Ukraine war. Any longer. Jo, essentially the same question to you. And on top of that, we have a president and lensky, almost like a child juvenile folding. His arms and saying, im not going to talk to putin. Ok. I have to believe that that was whispered in his ear, considering all of the loose rhetoric and we have heard considering what the background of the, of the pipelines being destroyed here, theyre upping their rhetoric here. But russias changing the political facts on the ground. Joe, go ahead. I think its not an overstatement, that were in the most dangerous i period, maybe in all of history, and im to get the cuban missile crisis. This is a hot war going on and weve got, we had jeff k and office not present to us president if need note decides to move on these New Territories that russia is absorbing. You know, i think the time for arguing over whos right or wrong in this war on ive done that in articles in on other shows and does show is over. Weve got to get both sides together to end this. And that would be giving up territory by, by ukraine, them. Thats whats going to have to happen because this has got to end before world in serious about that, you know, we werent directions put up with this for 30 years, being pushed into this resource. Cohens, anger flashing at the 2007 munich security conference. And now in this last speech, i mean, he laid it all out. Of course, the west can not understand a word hes talking about some of them. They cannot see themselves the way others see them. Now im sure theres some cynics within the u. S. Establishment and leadership, and they know whats going on and what the dangerous. They know that the so called mission to spread their exceptionalism is rubbish. And that theyre actually pushing their own interest. So maybe the cynics that are going to have to save us, theyre gonna have to realize that they cant push this any further. And both sides have to sit down and talk and end this thing now. Yeah, well margaret, i absolutely agree with what joe is said. With daniel is that, but if you, if you follow the advice of joe, then youre an apologist. Youre of the peas or a all of the worse things you could possibly quisling all you know, its pull out everything. Ok. And that is why we got ourselves into this situation. Im sorry to be a nerd about this here. But i did recall over and over again in my program until it was banned on youtube that on december 17th, that gauntlet was dropped. We have to negotiate before it gets hot, and this is where we are right now. Ok . So, you know, negotiations theres, you know, then people think there has to be a diplomatic solution. Well, it takes to, to talk and what doesnt want to talk because what is being told not to talk margaret. Yes. And there was a time when they were talking. So its very clear they were told not to. And as for zalinski is little performance less. We forget, he is an after a, if the United States told him to talk he would, ukraine has been a de facto us colony since 2014. So anything they say or do is what washington is telling them, washington and their allies, particularly in the u. K. But this, i agree completely with joe, this is a very, very dangerous moment. Not only do you have a government, joe biden, a week president , not very smart with the not very smart team of people who have this fantasy that they hope to make a reality. So not only does you crave blow up in their faces, but they will add to that by antagonizing china. This is the worst group of people that i can remember in my life, running Foreign Policy in this country and that, and they had that here helping them in that say, and that saying something, margaret, considering this, it is decades of strings of failure and destruction. And death and wasted treasury. Daniel, for me that rubicon was finally finally finally crossed with the destruction of the north stream pipelines. Because you cant pick them quickly. Why would russia fix them . Theyre going to be, they would be up for sabotage again. I mean, they have drawn the line, the europeans are going to suffer for this. Germany has germany even protested, who in europe is even protested. And then you have tony blinking. So its a tremendous opportunity here. I mean, when people tell you who they are, believe them, daniel, it is very obvious, you know, and colonel mcgregor was on fox. I think the other day saying, what cant you said out loud . Which isnt its obvious that either the u. S. U. K. Poland or some combination of the 3, which is probably the case is responsible for this and it is remarkable. As you point out, the germans are saying anything, salt and berg, nato said, well, clearly this looks like some kind of sabotage. You know, the elephant in the room is, is this, i mean, it reminds me of the m 817 on the plane that just happened to get blown up and was blamed on russia. The idea that theres anything in it for russia to blow up their own pipeline of multi 1000000000. 00 to lose 500. 00 a 1000000. 00 worth of gas and thin air. It makes no sense. Obviously its, its, its feels like a desperation move, but not against russia. And this is the important point, i think peter, which is this was that attack . No, no rush this property only. But mostly in the tack on germany. Yep. Germany has no chance. And there is, there have been some indication that there were some discussions going on between russia and germany. Theres unrest in germany. People take into the streets and hasnt gotten cold yet. The last, the last hour for them to use to space. If we saved themselves this winter is to restart nordstrom wanting to start in less than 2. Thats now off the table for the most part. So this was an attack on germany to make sure that germany does not find any kind of refreshment with russia. Well, again, daniel are said in a different way, but agreeing with you is to maintain american hegemony over europe. Thats the point here. Okay, and joe, so i guess nato, you know, its, its, its very foundation was the russians out, the germans down in the americans, then i think it didnt read. You didnt need to cold war for that. Ok, because thats the way the u. S. Wants to maintain its control over europe. Go ahead, joe. You know, this term cumber door when the dizziness leaders are selling out on people to serve a foreign power. O was always associated with developing countries. And this now occurred to me really clearly that european leaders, western european leaders are the same thing. These are colonies get for australia in there, and they are doing whatever the u. S. Wants at the expense of their own people has never been clearer than whats going on right now. Were not only risking their own economies, their own political futures, if the people do get out of the street and they have begun to do that. And of course, a Nuclear Confrontation as we were discussing. So the u. S. Has shown total control over their vassals, really in europe. And its really just disheartening to see this. Yeah, yeah, it is. I mean, you, why dont they to say no, because no, all of their leads have been co opted. They co opted all of their leads that serve not the interests of their people. As the German Foreign minister said, you know, he doesnt care what he wrote or say, ok, he doesnt get. He said that literally said that i dont care what my voters say america. One of the things that ive noticed, and ive been saying this ever since 2014 and said, the more the west backs, whatever government there is in care of the smaller the country gets having to have you noticed that yes. What a Great Success i and you know, everyone acts as though this was a new unprovoked attack. This has been going on for years. And yes, ukraine has not benefited at all from this basso status. It was already the poorest country in europe, the most corrupt country in europe, although the media dont say that anymore. What a surprise in february, suddenly it wasnt. But we see the ukrainian people suffering as zalinski, outlaw and Political Parties denying people the right to bargain collectively, basically turning over the country to foreign investment. So the u. S. Interference in this country has been an absolute disaster for their people. Now weve had war since february, many people dead disruption displacement. So theres nothing good about ukraine having hitched its wagon to the us and its allies. Its been an absolute disaster. Well, margaret, you know, were going to quickly go to a break here, but i think there are, there are elements. I mean, we have that like b hunter, bidens that have done very, very well. And, and of course, ukraines oligarchy are doing extremely well. Because as far as i can tell margaret, there is no audit to where those weapons are going, where all that money is going and theyll never be an audit. Ok. And so the, theres no accountability here is a matter of fact the u. S. That no longer tracks um, where its arms go, that that whole division was of the pentagon was shut down to suddenly they dont want people to know art, wanna jump in here. Were going to go to a short break it up to that short break. Well continue our discussion of natos dilemma state. Ah ah. Oh, well, never be a victory for russia. Wait, we shall see what youre still waiting. I truly need not unless you look at a meal. Crane war is a proxy war. This is a war between russia and the United States. As oman are made, it comes to not should get done in carbon dioxide. America forces are and youre not in europe to gauge in conflict with russian forces. The American Forces are here and defend nato allies. What happens that nato escalates even more indiscretion, military operations become a war when you but does have some rules that demonstrate that belgium is my thought. I see it that i see you at the us. Thank you. Plus list of me live. So you sleep issue, you can you stuff to with most of them. Lets see. We live at home is still foolish. The venue sewage near. I see the girl with just look up from literally a muscle around noon. She kitty doesnt being in the green shield on a nurse to me as possible. Mamma, cats gosh, stiff get somebody to look at that. I put his ashley of a dc one. It was a duplicate piece. It goes down to one to look please. Of course, jason did not put the key for the chain of ions to network for phones or Something Like that. And then we got that with that. The welcome back to cross talk where all things are considered. Im Peter Lavelle to remind you we are discussing natos dilemma in ah okay, lets go back to daniel and lake jackson. I think all of us would agree that this is the biggest propaganda psych up operation of all time. And weve seen a lot of them in our lifetime here, daniel would be the its been said accidentally said biden, set it by mistake, you know, regime change. And, but this is really what its all about. I mean, ukraine assist the proxy, the they dont leave these people, victoria knew, and people like they didnt care about ukraine. They care about humiliating russia and defeating russia here. And this is with the pipelines you need any more proof, been that go ahead. Daniel. Whats interesting is that the big near brzezinski, son is now the Us Ambassador in warsaw. Yeah, that does make you wonder a little bit the person his father is responsible for the creation of the militia dean with the idea of using them to overthrow the soviet union in russia backs. And its the same group of people that have been in power for decades now. Finally, getting their opportunity to do what they plan to do forever. They thought that, that the 2014 qx would do it, but of course, and they thought the orange revolution before they would do it completely oblivious to the realities of the fact that ukraine has been a divided country of those sections. If youve trained that are now rejoining russia, were part of russia up until 1922, when lenin pilled them away and give them to ukraine. Of course, we know that crimea was peeled away later than that in the 50s by crew chef. This would have been a natural process anywhere else where you had people voting, 90 percent for this, for the, for the candidate, it was considered to be the most pro russia in those regions. Its a natural, natural feature of Self Determination that they would decide to join this. Its only the u. S. As you say, peter, with its fantasy of over throwing the russian government and again, subjugating russia as it did during yeltsin to the, to, to its own will to the u. S. Washington on will, thats driving this and this is, joe is absolutely right. Absolutely dead. The world ending policy . Yeah, joe, i want to go back to that the, all through the mainstream legacy media is that the worry that is going to use nukes, ok. I dont know where this came from. The 1st person that was a French Foreign minister from 1st mentioned nukes during all of this, not russia and rushes reiterated. Its new killer doctrine, its not changed whatsoever. So, joe, my proposition is this, this is a form of projection. We, you know, ive talked to a lot of military real people, not the losers on tv. Ok, but people that actually know what theyre talking about. And is that the nato doesnt have the conventional forces to fight a war against russia. But it does have one weapon in its arsenal. It is very deadly for all of us. And this is what im really worried about. Theyre saying the russians are going to do it, but theyre projecting because thats their only line of defense jo. Look at twisting in the western media and when western leaders, what exactly russia saying on this, theyre changing a warning into a threat. Theres a big difference between a warning and a threat. If you go to a power station, it says, warning, high voltage, it doesnt say threat, high voltage, that means you actually have to do something in order to be harmed. Where is it . Thats a warning. Whereas in a threat, you could be completely innocent and be attacked, and just a person could, i could kill someone say im going to kill you out of a fit of rage. Whereas if someone says, if you pick up that gun, im going to shoot you that self defense a different train, aggression and self defense, right . You, russia is laid out. Yes, there nuclear doctrine, which is not changed if you attack russian territory, even with non conventional means. If its existentially a threat to rush survival, russia, then they could use nuclear weapons. But i dont know exactly what the secret messages were that we read about in the Washington Post that has been going on for weeks, if not months now from, from the us side to russian regarding nuclear weapons, i fear that you might be right. And i hope that youre wrong, peter, that the, the actually, its the western side that is making a threat rather than just a warning, because weve reached the end of the road here in the long period of a battle between unilateral us dominance and the rest of the world resisting that . Weve come to the head right now, so we can be talking about this in such a, a blight way nuclear weapons. And i dont think that theres the public consciousness them than there was in october crisis 60 years ago in cuba. So as i said before, its time to put all this talk aside and make a deal and end this war now. And for the russian side, this is existential. It is to be or not to be, but for the west, this is a craving choice, and its ideologically driven. And thats what makes this so dangerous. Because i, you know, i read, you know, i read tough, you know, the, the, the Government News agency, what are the most boring for things you can read and its terribly terribly ranks. But it is, its one fact after another this was what was said. Thats it. No editorializing, i read it all the time and they say all the time, what theyre going to do it, you know, what is important . Heard, what is the big . Its not hard to figure out, go there, go to the kremlin website. Its all there in black and white. Go ahead market. Well, well, when we get is war propaganda. We see outlets like the New York TimesNew York Times is just as a mouthpiece for the biden administration. And thats part of the danger. We dont get real news. We have war propaganda, New York Times, Washington Post n, p r, et cetera. Its nothing but us propaganda. No information, no fax, nothing that is of any benefit to people. As joe said, projection in order to normalize the idea of hot war to normalize the idea of nuclear war. And by the way, the u. S. A does not a rule out of 1st strike, so that we know that thats u. S. Policy. The u. S. Gives itself permission to use nukes 1st, and were dealing with people who are not very smart. Every act of desperation makes their situation worse. They didnt destroy russias economy, theyve destroyed the economies all over the world. Theyve blown up this pipeline. And in effect, attacked an ally, a terrorist attack. So were dealing with people who dont know what theyre doing, who are, as you say, idiot, logically driven, who have some crazy band to see about being able to get rid of putin or have regime change. So were in a very, very difficult situation with these people in charge at this moment. Inter daniel, i think all of us are, you know, were kind of close in nature. All of us, as i st generation was put it that way. I how in the world as the Mainstream Media and the current political lead normalized nucular war because they have nothing seems real. I mean, everything is invented out of whole cloth its, its incredible to think about, you know, it, talk about propaganda. You know, we talked about, there was a tweet from the Associated Press this week that said there is a kremlin. 6 back, conspiracy theory, going around saying that the United States blew up these pipes. I mean, master will propaganda because if you happen to question that russia did it well, then youre obviously a dupe of the kremlin. Its just so blatant now. And i think this is, this is also the way that this is escalated, the u. S. Continues to throw things that it would not seeing a reaction, theyll continue do more and more. But what the service me the most is, yes, the people in power are incompetent, but we dont have an Opposition Party and United States, the republicans, if they had any brains and they dont, they would be running at the pro peace party right now. Biden has jumped the entire military budget of russia into ukraine over the past 7 months, and its gone down a black hole. Its done nothing. You know, the republicans have this on a platter, but they are also so enamored with war. So caught up in the military industrial complex, so caught up in war rhetoric that they would literally rather not win house and senate in november, then to turn and adopt a more sensible Foreign Policy that would have a broader repeal. Yeah, i find most liberal, stupid, but republicans are scary. Thats how i look at them. Ok. A plague on both them. Ok. You know, joe, joe, you know, when i was, you know, when i was in graduate school, we used to read the new york review books. Okay. And the section i really liked was history, eastern european, or soviet Union Russian all about. There was an enormous amount of debate and it was really riveting. Theres no debate anywhere anymore. And to the proof that point they banned me from you to. They banned me for twitter. Ok, theres no debate. No, they dont even give me the chance to be insulted. Anymore, joe, thats what makes this a much more dangerous crude at any time. Perhaps in recent history, certainly because there is no argument in the u. S. Or in the west. He used to be in the seventys, a real argument about whether we should pursue the americans should pursue detente or not with the soviet union. That is gone. There is no argument. You cannot say anything that goes against official narrative. This is what so frightening us needed this war. They needed russia to intervene, so that they could launch their economic war and their proxy were on the ground. And especially their information was in the context were talking about right now, and they are winning that part of it was in the economic war. Clearly sanction to backfire. Ruble is stronger than ever, but theyre winning the information war. And this is extremely part of the danger that were living to right now, because you can even argue these points. You cant raise any questions. Weve been shut down on a Power Consortium news. News guard is given us the red mark. We and so many people and kicked off twitter, youtube for simply raising questions. This cannot go on because if it does, its part of the reason were leading ourselves down this extremely dangerous path. Because we cant even have a discussion about whats going on in, you know, margaret, you know, i have said repeatedly, you know, that this is existential, of the fate of ukraine is very important to russia, security. And that is ban speech. But you know what . Brock obama said exactly the same thing when he was leaving office. Just imagine the short amount of time. I mean if hed said that today, i guess technically he would be banned margaret . Well yes he would be, but, but you know, this is why they had this crazy idea. The disinformation board that was all about ukraine to make, to shut down any discussion all together. So you have people who are the more they read, the more misinformed they are, and this is a bipartisan project. Democrats and republicans all too often are on board and there are on the same side more often i believe, than actually they are different. So we need the left to step up. We are arguing about what you feel about Vladimir Putin and speak up and the left in europe apparently disappeared. I find it shocking that the u. S. Has, in effect attacked, the e u. A people are literally starting to breathe and theres no movement. Of course they blew up the pipeline to try to shut that down. But the left needs to step up. My only my great, they let me finish. Let me finish on this point because what they also do and do very well if they keep all of us apart from each other, they make us hate each other. Okay . And i refuse to do that on this program. I have progressives on all the time. Libertarians all the time, very few liberals come on, but i do my best at all the time we have, we need more debate. Maybe thats what well save, is here. Many thanks to my gets in washington, new york and lake jackson. And thanks to our viewers for watching us here at archy, so you next time, remember prostate rules ah with ah hello, welcome, that we interrupt this episode of paul stokes take you live at to vienna, where some top officials from the okay plus international group. And i was speaking following those sundays last listen in life, which could come our way. Its a brewing cloud. And that we hope with our cohesion, with our commitment to the various approaches that we have a built in within our means and ways of conducting ourselves. I have to keep reminding our friends here at the q 4. Okay. Plus success is 1st and foremost is our cohesion. And you can see it in front of you. The operative model is very simple and we urge other International Organization to copy and paste because at least we have a record to show that we have been successful. We always opted for making sure that we are a tentative and to be a tentative, youll have to be a cert and prevent preemptive and certainly ahead of the curve, which means you have to be proactive. It is a simple principle that we found ourselves deploying and that deployment had enabled us to maintain a sustainable own market