Dont get me wrong. I dont think that russia would want to go in this direction, but its obviously, its obviously a huge well, this part of the escalation its, its not racing the bar and us as to just point out that the interesting artist how will the west react . Because we have to keep in mind after this offensive wish was, well, its complicated, but obviously it can be defined as a great success. There was a claim territory for the payment. So in the west we kind of build up the champagne bottle. So almost declaring victory in the war, and suddenly to go from there until the 4th territory is becoming part of russia and russia and russia racing the bar. It makes the question or how will the rest respond . The it puts the dilemma on them. How they respond militarily. Ok. Now its a response. So let me go to the me here. Now, im basically the same question here because its when they talk about the negotiated and the conflict when once these referendums are completed. And i think its fair to say that they, they will pass. They will make a request to the Russian Federation to join russia. Were going to assume thats going to happen. So theres a difference if there is going to be negotiated and its going to be a different ukraine that will be negotiating. Well, i think there are 2 points of view positions from which you can view this, which one is most important for me and that is a purely human like people leaving, you know, these therapist, these are 8000000 people. What do they feel . What really fear, you know, i have friends relatives and theyre all the same, same thing. We dont want to from going to move out if russia and im sure that were secure. Let us be part of russia just dont go away. You know, dont let you know if you know, all the stuff that you are to blame or sound terrible. Then you should have started this because you make us offer, you know, either do it to them or dont start the same story wasnt changed. I dont have to change now, but i remember that that was exactly the issue that during the 2nd, you know, when the song was for finally. So basically the wes barry decides actually i can sum up like this. They dont want peace in your great, they want to defeat rush, you know, well call the western media come up, they sold a so so many square wild russian territory regains they dont speak of all 1000, so green and sometimes russian. So just kill then on talk about the suffering of the population you, which was in control. The russians came in and ukrainian, came back and started arresting culture and people who collaborated with us. So the way it is very politicized. They dont feel the different people. And from this point of view, i think everything on the side of the west is very basically asking the question is in boston, but he said, well, i should use all the means necessary. I like the next 5 media basically said this is irresponsible, irresponsible, to check. If someone is blocking the situation. The stakes are too high. You want to try it again. Like to try it. Try. You try to get it. You want to try this, maybe not. Right . So not only your for the whole, if you make it so that the position of the west, which is why in, im sorry, united way again all day on site. On to the point where i said this is the 1st time, 1st time since 900 century. When all European Press united in covering this of all the media except a few independent was, is on one side. And theyre like ration was going to in soccer ball was going to suggest something more. And this is a very dangerous situation, because indeed, the situation on the girl dont go to school. I mean, im sure that i would you with the russia was road . Yeah, a lot more resources for and i mean rush it to look at the actual garage and down to make it while we were invited by the q 1000. That when they had riots in a rush and i wasnt right. And we do go in there even though that way by that. Why . Because we dont want to create a response. Its not about territorial gains, its about the, the will of the people on the ground. Let me switch back to back here that day. And so this is what, what is in play here. Its already been said on a himself. This is not a bluff. Ok. Do you think the west takes that seriously . Because i mean you can be more emphatic than saying it right out loud. Well, i think the very important question, because this is a so called questioning whether or not to this is a Nuclear Bluff on behalf of russia. I think the reason behind the questioning at all is because the west and russia, from my perspective, appeared to escalate differently. If you see the way the west escalates, it tends to embrace this in a salami tactics. It takes very low thin slices gradually, and this is how its escalated while russia tends to take a hold on and take this big leaks if you will. So for example, if right, if you want to take it from 2014 after the western or something, you know, College Person going to coach in kid. And then we saw in russia took a big step back crimea, and also supported dont boss. But then when we saw nato play this incremental, a gradual escalation in which they refused to implement means that they didnt say, we then said openly that just a anything. And also they kind of in the language that played it down like it is the spirit of it. And, and at the same time, they were pumping in gradually more and more weapons. And as slowly according shutting down the obsession media, shutting down a position, Political Parties arresting that opposition later, gradually suppressing russian language and culture. You know, were building up troops in boss, you know, there was a very gradual escalation. And then suddenly, with the rush, i get a warning, dont do this, otherwise we will escalate. But is there a smallest collision done . You know, you know, russia recognizing on bus and then invading and who say there was, this was doing the same thing gradually. So slowly and more and more heavier and heavier weapons at the beginning, remember that if you want to send fighter planes now and everything is on the table, so this graduate escalation. And then of course, we would take for granted them, but theyve been, you know, the americans took credit for helping sink the most go and worship they dont killing of Russian Military leaders offensive the american. So just this was almost directed by them and the british. So now you gradually up to this, nate, the russian war, and again, is russias time escalate. This will graduate with the sheer just collision where the now partially mobilizes. 300000 troops. Troops has referendum in this 4 regions. And set this Nuclear Threat though. So i think part of the reason why we dont take the bluff seriously enough in the way above the statement in the way. Theres no way we think it might be a bluff is because it seems like we are a big step that weve come for expecting the slow incremental escalation. But i think its some extent were escalating for someone, someone different certainly. And let me, let me get it going to the break here. This is all part of the process and it goes back to them both in the early part of the conflict where they were seemingly, there was some kind there and it was the west that rejected. This is what were told here. Ok. And so it would be that gives a recent to continue the escalation, because if, if one side is offered a negotiated, then its, im not interested in, you have to ask why you have no other choice beam a 32nd, right . Oh yes, that was a compromise based on meeting and that there is a fact you know, that you bring your side store and now is it ask is saying were not interested in further negotiation until were when a hold that thought were going to go to a quick break, and after that break, well can, you know, our discussion on ukraine staying with our i was just a guy, but i want to with world, with you, with you. Im with with full credit. Its going to be out of wood, from beach to still easy for this patient, but in the board, what did their, what the, what they need a welcome back to cross back were all things are considered. I get it. This is the home addition to remind you, were discussing some real moves. Lets go back to moscow, right, before we went to the break, youre trying to finish point go right ahead, my friend. Well, basically this is the problem. Who wants me to rush . It was, this is suffering, you know, we dont want us to die until recently when there were made a difference between the queens. I think what was better. Sincere was said that was the same people. It was the bringing side that still it was the west, the banish brush, all International Institutes from international dial, barely managed for me just down there, United Nations get or so. So russia credit choice wouldnt kind of choice to make rules based order. In general, you know, International Security on the people people leaving and because were pretty good. So is almost because the internet is not for us. Its for someone else. And we can insure security. There is a very important that fact that is all why people are in fact i mean that Police Record strong. Great. Please. When you walk with the shops where assessment on the damage is controlled by iraq. Since february 24, the site does not woman. Maybe it was all just people cleaning no problems. No. These were assassination teams. Right. And people died. Car attacks, people are sure, you know, that prosecutor general region that will kind of the actual condition. Now will you be inside delivery targeting that go to where people go to that they switch around. So a, if the state that it can will maintain it is claim of legitimacy theres, its killing its own citizens. Ok, this is what i mean. I cant think of another reason to vote to leave. Exactly, i mean, this is awful. I mean, it was the same story as with best latino, until these School Children were taken by people who claim that we are going to support changes and you will talk about it. But they give such a huge crime that a door, a set of these for more of us, more people at home when children, but they can, theyre supposed to just in the same way. Now, if you dont like the sure for adults, or if you can see why i didnt know people go with why i want you. Hi, mark precisely. You know that places where people walk where people go all over the station or, you know, in house on time, are you start this patient personal . Precisely a so, i mean, was this kind of a, did your, how can we talk about International Law . What kind of rules is this would be based on. So basically when even a nasty show when the west sounds rush these meetings. Yes, because you way the Legal Framework an empty shout. Yeah. In a claim, you know, ive, ive kind of had a c change over the last few weeks and thinking about the timing or the duration of this conflict. Because i think everyone on the russian side, at least, wanted to see this wrapped up as soon as possible. Saving lives, obviously, but im considering russia is facing the entire industrialized wes, them, i call it nato worlds. Ok, so this is the russia is at war with nato in ukraine. Im. But in the, the question of timing is really important because the longer the conflict goes on, the suffering of course continues. But the unraveling of the so called unity and solidarity of, of the west is becoming more and more apparent because its time passes. The real pain, not the sanctions against russia, but the sanction ers are the ones that are feeling the pain as it gets cooler and cooler with every passing day here. Thoughts one . Well, this is sir, all this how, why we have this escalations to begin with because we are in a position now almost no, no, no total or about the exhausting completely the other side and the, and the, and the especially claiming full mixture. Thats why theres also no room for a diplomacy or thats why this calls like this so frightening now. Well, you know, one could say that no one can ever see how this is escalated over this over the past 6 months, because when the war began, keep in mind that russia, in a storm after q and the capital and with a lot of pressure on, on so landscape to accept or what they couldnt get before the 24th february, which was a settlement of final settlement on this, on this conflict. And, and as the democratic the point out this year, a lot of reports from both ukraine and america. And this is when boys johnson came to cave and said, listen, dont, dont make any deals with the russians. We can instead exhaust them. We can believe in dr. Effectively with less, less of deal with them. And this is also something that corresponds to said later on like it. And we, we should avoid any bad piece with russia. We should take a piece, which means we have to defeat the rashness, which is all the americans to some extent said that they have to be defeated on, on the battlefield then. And this is the problem. Now you enter more on the exhausting the opponent and this is why are they . This is why it also implies a lot of escalation. Because before that, keep in mind, rush and avoid that. A lot of civilian infrastructure. It didnt even that tackle of the barracks where it knew that to create a soldiers or its main message was, you know, not in conflict with you in conflict with government so. So gradually this continuous increase made a question more and more weapons, russia escalades on this side, and you have this mutual escalation going on. And because if the goal is to exhaust the enemy and theres no austin, i mean theres no diplomacy anymore on the table. Then if its all the full victory, or if this is when this is when you have this mutual escalation. So i think about the timing that this is probably something that the kremlin is, but this is a calculating because if you look at the weapon storage is across nato. I mean they, they say that across Eastern Europe there. So hes working on the germans, say we have anything that they were, im her course in america. Not only that a lot of the storage, what the stores have been to play them, but theyre taking weapons out on active service to ship to ukraine. And i havent been able to see him in his report to verify but, but undoubtedly they went and something exhausted and also european economies. I mean, things are going great in europe now. Its difficult to keep the homes industries. Cons, obviously survive a lot of the Energy Intensive industries counselor. So and then again dennis ross exhausting us. And then of course we are trying to explore the russians through by a johnson. So just to we have to believe the rush was dry slowly. This is also something rand corporation, by the way, as other catered for many years, that even the excess excited, the escalating the conflict in the bus. They had a long record of this in 2019. This could helped to get russian more involved in the region, believe more russians in terms of blog and research. And this is a way of destroying russia. So we are to some extent in it all in an existential conflict. I mean, thats the word exist. So yes, so, so this is a crazy escalation on both sides and no diplomacy. And this is why its very frightening situation. I went demon went to go back to the referendums. I think its very important to point out to our viewers that this will have a demonstration effect. We have 4 regions that are voting on leaving ukraine and obviously joining russia. And then we have the military campaign. We can add like odessa, coff eventually. Because once this process of leaving ukraine joining russia will set is a precedent for other regions of ukraine and, and b, obviously ultimately, im most important that the russians are there to protect the people that they recognize as being part of the country. What kind of demonstration effect will it have . Well, let me 1st explain something brought us your brain was that you more see until and when you bring one of these regions credit basically a harp is not what you dont have to cancel the always voltage for the pro ration candidate. They voted for which my, against the graph to the phone with that for each or that the more than bush against their will was or the promotion. Or if they say that, so basically since for 1000, what can these people had no choice. They would not elect people into government, they were doing that. And the last one you created, which was the idea, you know, lead out russia. It reminds me over that german and french strategy during the 1st one which was invented, then, you know, the germans wanted to bleed out the franchise. The result was that they bled out themselves to each other. And 1st of all, what became the tragedy that we know . So in the same way, i mean this, the pattern was the last. Now there was a smoke on the west give, you know, okey in syria. There were a few children pena, something by the star. So, the last day and, you know, making it a huge program, you know, basically inviting fighters from the artist game. And then it became a community which continues to reason in the same way. If russia said its way election in 2014, maybe in the beginning of 15, mr. Young. Of course you will get the like that or he would get out of the president ial palace by legal needs and everything will be fine. But the one that they wanted to change it in the same way now. I mean, i love watching government that isnt that hit me about this partial voice issue. Why there i just put in is under pressure because it doesnt matter for them. You know that people are dying that ukraine is suffering. What, what matter is that under pressure and what is there right on their side, which is under pressure not only from the anti or the approval, but also from the alternation. How can you to be an instructional authoritarian that there are people, you know, who put the president on the bresh, theres a box public to be a barrier or story system. We have why i can explain to you because rush was not being authoritarian states since 1987 a we have to end on this point here. Fascinating discussion. I think my guess and are slow and in mosque. I want to thank you for watching us here. See you next time. Remember i with nobody see that the was the, were jesus you didnt . Yes it was he just up and we know all new young me in the middle. Mm hm. I mean, yes. Leslie door . Nashville no. Puerto dumped a. Thatll go up. Dont cheat is must. So must all must. It always has thermos only hot. Go on that much enough. Please conceal must up on a thumb candle vehicle. I just wanted to follow up to the shell spot, hold on. Would lose a quote to move decides im lash sale is that only the city so alto, still willing, given enough bustle, eels, williams, weve got a new to you and you put on the really what you took a symbol and you talk all the local to participate in the massage as well. By mister wheeler, the nicest. Yeah. Boy you still hold with a note of them. Will those on almost lost . I was going to the bus. Not as must all can you get on was im phones will chill. Yes. My through under the, when you got those town, this will it about to get all the when you either from of ship issues just most welcome to now huh. Moon nation. I am. Will not on the meet all. Should the giddy emilio on more than for the, on the, not all of the all to get an idea of progressively canadian, if they have not been with the thumbs obviously interested. You must forms your monkey mean what you the e process that you always asked is more than they live at. Now when you look at the blood up like a new book like, ah, i dont know. I dont know if if you didnt, you might have been much in it. Oh, wonder if i told her this mustang. But i still calmly. But as in your lease there was a stomach already and neither penny too big. I moved austin. If i decided to bring you the boy, you know i shall stay low as it is. I saw that money will because also what is lucy blair take a look still as was i had stepped chimney, which i think you placed a middle of better which had been you must you to have to work. Well, well start with the dish yet. Weve got a dish, the dish dish out the what . The wallet in the culture as youll like. Additionally, why not glad youre not sure the world. So you can say was malott says when you look, grandma miss cautious is a white girl, occlusal guard. The finishes usually shall be what the on of the way so but if you will in yet. Oh, but in theory and feature to one that i mean good us now to music what you will get a you guy will show this just go over all model bucklin yet we face with enough. When you look, when you are naturally, scott, i was little falls off. Let us alone wasnt gonna sit on incomplete innovation with shalom. So be letting me, lucy, to let it be longer that she did believe from what a slip of the month about on which was a mock about with the when you look at what all this is just like must paulina mean you came in the machine doesnt bit, i wish la, near the rhetorical daughter of angela wished, emotional information as i put almost a w, sold out on political when you mores with them, or they will close up with mr. On the was in a, with a conflict the much more. But he was in your friends by with with ah, day for the voting in the dont boss. I dont see it on regions it on to way you know, special coverage International Observe a shed. There was a referendum to join russian. Ok, honestly i expected to see a different situation. People panicking being scared to vote, but i see voters calmly coming to express their will. Its clear to me that people have been waiting for this for a long time. Thousands of protesters in germany demands the governments recognition over the decline states with many coating to open the node stream to pipeline. I made rising energy