Transcripts For MSNBCW Why 20240705

,. Good to go, all right. Hello, new york. Thank you for joining us, live at in new york city for this very, very Special Edition of why is this happening . He is insightful, he is big hearted, very, very very smart. Admit it, hes taller than you expected. Please give a warm welcome to my friend, my beloved colleague, and msnbcs chris hayes. [applause] hello, everybody. Hello thank you. Oh, stop. [applause] stop it [applause] how are you . Good . Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. Sit down, sit down, sit down. Thank you, thats extremely kind. I hate attention and positive feedback. Really, really hard 20 seconds for me. Thank you for cutting it short. Its amazing to be here in my hometown of new york city, ive got some family here. Tonight, were gonna talk about democracy. In that word, weve probably talked more about democracy in the last four or five years that i had in all of my time before than i would say. Even that as a topic seems weird, we know americas democracy. Theres certain kind of history that youre taught that i think is part of american civic culture. Deeply. Almost kind of Civic Religion. Which roughly goes to the following. The founders rebelled against the tyranny of the crown. And the injustice of monarchy. And they conceived in liberty a new nation, founded on the government buy of and for the people. Thats the Lincoln Gettysburg Address version of it. And theyve rejected basically the idea that there is some authority above all of us that has dominion over us. That each of us are imbued with the ability to determine our own faith, collectively as a we. Thats a very difficult, messy process. Fundamentally, in the eyes of some of the founders, god given. In the others, its a natural truth. But thats the idea. We all decide together what we all are going to do. And that simple, fundamental, and at the time radical idea is what separates us here in the Western Hemisphere from the old world of europe, where you had monarchies and Kings And Queens and tyrants. And then as time went on, various forms of blood and soil authoritarianism, ultimately fascism, culminating in the second world war. And you dont really get democracies in that part of the world in the way we think about them until afterwards. There are some, obviously, like theres democratic forms of government that exist before. Than a bunch of failed revolutions. These compromises that work in the uk and in poland and in different parts of the continent. Basically, we are the model for the world. Right . Yes, where the first ones. We figured it out. We slot off the yoke of tyranny. And we seize our faith. The other part of the question that we all know, a very complicated story. As one british critic at the time said, the loudest cries of liberty come from the americans as they whip their slaves. Which is, by the way, an important point that they saw at the time. Right . People understood at the time, there was incredible, ridiculous tension in american rhetoric about Self Determination and democracy. But the general story, i think we have, we start with an imperfect democracy and then we work towards a more more perfect democracy. The more Perfect Union that in the preamble. And i think theres something to that story. I dont think its a crazy story. But its basically the Civic Religion we have. I think theres another way of thinking about the story of american democracy. Which is that america is kind of the ongoing dynamic site of a Perpetual Contestation over democracy. That its the sight of a constant pitched battle between forces on the side of democracy versus against them. And the forces against them are not fringe characters, and sometimes, the forces against them or the most celebrated people in the country. Andrew jackson, who is viewed as a small d democrat, because he sort of railed against the elites, right . And he founded the modern Democratic Party with his sort of populism, he invited the people into the white house on the day of integration where they all got drunk. He was not, in any recognizable sense, really a democrat in the way we think of it today. I mean, he thought there was a cast of people who should rule over another cast of people. He was one of the major pursuers of the Ethnic Cleansing that made the continent what it is. Right . He didnt think that everyone had some universal, inalienable rights. That all of us collectively should rule all of us collectively. He thought that the white man should rule over slaves and over the Indigenous People that populated the planet. Im not saying this in Andrew Jacksons canceled way. He should be. To be clear. Im actually talking in a very specific way about how would you characterize the ideological Belief System of Andrew Jackson. Is it accurate to call Andrew Jackson a small the democrat . Is it accurate to college into jackson, like, a believer in democracy . Right . I think its a little tough to say it is. At least in our modern sense. Which is the best sense. Theodore roosevelt, on mount rushmore. What does theater roosevelt believed . He, writes in, says often, that the white race is there to rule over the other races. He found what becomes essentially the american empire. In the pacific, where we will rule over these people. Theyre not gonna get the vote. Theyre not gonna be citizens. Theyre not full equal. They are subject to authority, from on high, and they are forced to be under that authority, not that different way than the remote king back at the time. Again, with all the examples im giving, theres people at the time who recognize this. One of the most pitched debate that happened in American History on the floor of the congress is about the Trail Of Tears. Where people come to the well to say, this is, they dont have the term of the time, Ethnic Cleansing. This is totally unjust. We cant do this. These people have inalienable rights. At the same time, when we started fighting our wars under the Theodore Roosevelt and pursuing american empire, there were people at the time, mark twain being very prominent among them, saying were doing the thing that we hated the crown for doing. And each moment in American History, where you have these fights in frictions over what the meaning of democracy actually is, there are contemporaries on each side of the debate. Its not this neat arc where we start confused and benighted, and dont really understand that slavery is wrong, but then we sort of walk into the late. No, they knew. They knew. They knew the Trail Of Tears was wrong. They knew that the wars in the pacific and the philippines, what we were doing, they knew it was wrong. There were people who really clearly saw what it was. And thats true at every point. And its true up until the period in the run up to will vote to. That story, we learned, is basically the fall. Because of the trauma of world war i, the u. S. Is very reticent to get involved in another war on european shores. Fair. And we kind of dither. Fdr comes up with land lease, this is the basic version, because hes trying to straddle, he really somethings gonna have to be done. But its very hard to get americans into this idea of a second war in europe. In just several decades later. And then pearl harbor happens, and run. And we defeat fascism. Right . [laughter] go us. [laughter] thats basically the story. And that story also masks exactly the same thing. That is masked in those other moments, from countries founding, to the Trail Of Tears with jackson, to the creation of u. S. Empire in the pacific under Theodore Roosevelt. Which is contemporaneous debates in the society of what democracy is and whether its good. Whether what we actually do want is for all of us collectively, as individuals with sovereign rights over ourselves. Collectively, to come together to transfer that sovereignty into a collective we. That the sides as a democracy how we will mark our faith. How we will go forward. Or whether we want is something else. Dominion. Ruled by some group or person. That is an eternal debate in american politics. Were now realizing this, i think, in a way that we didnt appreciate until we found ourselves in this moment now, where were debating it again every day. And it feels weird, it feels alien, and it feels like it landed from mars. How did we all come to a consensus on this. Didnt we all agree that where a democracy . Wasnt it the fact that in the old days, we would fight along the 40 yard lines . This was a cliche. Right . We didnt have extremes. We were actually debating. No, the debate has been there the entire time. And one of the most useful interventions in understanding the debate being there the whole time, it comes by way of this up and coming talent that ive spotted. [laughter] ive got a pretty good eye. In this really remarkable Podcast Cold Ultra that it came a year ago. [applause] totally, if you have not listen to it, go download it. Subscribe to my podcast to what youre doing it. Download ultra. It is the story of an basically, fascist sympathizers in the u. S. Prior to the war. In their efforts. An incredible lengthy went to, and im not gonna spoil, were gonna talk about in a second. Now that subsequently has been turned part of it. I want to urge people, because i read the book this week, i have been under the gun of deadline wise. I want to urge people listen to ultra to read the book. Because this book, precool. See it . [applause] it is not just the podcast in the book. It goes so much further. Its an incredible read. And its kind, of i think, a skeleton key for this particular moment. So, without further ado, id like to introduce the author of precool. My dear, dear, dear friend. My beloved colleague, rachel maddow. [applause] [applause] [applause] a lot of people in this room. A lot of. People for those listening on the podcast, 20,000 people in this room. Never seen anything like it in my life. Im wearing my reading glasses, youre all just little blobs. Cant see you at all, which is helpful. Yes. Can we, i want to start in your way into this material. I have to say, it is an incredible talent that you have. And this has been through a new Television Show for years, of finding these sort of unexplored nuggets in American History. The stories that people dont know and then you tell them, and youre, like what . Really . That actually happened . And ultra was an incredible example of that. Where i literally, i mean, i knew who Father Coughlin was. A rightwing antisemitic populist preacher. I knew that. I knew that there was, you know, this American First Movement that lindbergh, read the philippe novel, which is great. Its great. That was kind of my cannon for those things. I know those things. Nothing else that appeared that puck asked. I want you to start by just saying, what was your way into this material . It really is not on the surface. So, i never set out to tell a history story. Im always looking for something thats going on in current life. Its always something that sprung from things that are going on in the news. And the thing i get dinged for rightly, i think, in terms of the way ive done my work. That if i want to tell you about something happening in the world today, everything has to start with first, a meteor hit the earth. And then the dinosaurs died. And when their bodies dissolved. [laughter] thats, good thats a good bit. If that is not your way of thinking about the world, i can understand why that is alienating. Im not everybodys cup of tea. That, thank you. I love you too. [applause] thats the way my brain works. I was as a nerve does anybody. But also by kind of confused and interested that we were seeing all this altright, neonazi, antisemitic, and holocaust and ill stuff around the rise of trumpism. So, trumpism is happening in the Electoral College space. And for a minute, we call it the altright. I dont think we call them that anymore. But it was, seeing them rise alongside trump and seeing them chilling for trump, and seeing them as parallel movements. I didnt understand why that was. So, i wanted to figure out how will, not just antisemitism, but specifically hala talk holocaust or no has function in the united states. Before. That was the starting point . That was the starting point. How do, because if you go back far enough in terms of the origins of american holocaust denial, which i did, you get back to like 1948. Hostomel is a lot of terrible things. One of the things it is is weird. Just with so much evidence that it happened, how can it be that we say it didnt happen . Well, thats especially true in 1948. When there are lots of people in the world who are witnesses to what happened. So, how can it be that it is a source of denial for political movement. It is not that they honestly believe it didnt happen. They are using holocaust now for a reason, as part of a political project. That is what i got into in the 40s, and that is how i found my defendants. That is how i learned that they all got put on trial and they all got off when the judge died. And i thought, you know what . I was gonna tell a different story, i think immunity all this one. I dont know any of it. You trace in the book different strands of pro fascist, antisemitic, not see aligned thought and actors in the u. S. How would you describe, in some ways, its a little bit of a misfit toys situation. Theres some real odd ones in their. Yeah situat theyre also Operatina Discursive Environment that is not closed off to what theyre saying. Correct. Tell me about Public Opinion around the question of fascism in the rise of it in 1930, 31, 32 . When some of the people that you document in the book are trying to, and sometimes at the behest of the german government, cultivate sympathy. Fascism was the movement of the future. Fascism did not have the cast that we associate it now retrospectively with notti germany. The number one selling book in america in 1941 was written by Charles Lindberghs wife, and morrow lindberg. About how fascism is coming to america, when that be fantastic . We could finally get some stuff done. And it was, in fact, a lot of people who have looked into it, i cant say this definitively, a lot of people believe it was Ghost Written By A Guy Named Lawrence Dennis, the leading intellectual fascist of his time. He wrote a book called the coming american fascism. He went on one of the things that we found was told Nbc Radio Archives from town meeting of the year, which was a great debate show that they used to host along the nbc radio networks. And one of the very first ones that they did, they brought Lawrence Dennis on to argue for fascism against other people who are arguing against fascism. He went the floor with him. Fascism cross fire. Fascism cross fire. Totally, exactly. [laughter] i mean, it was a popular thing. By the time we get to 1940, 80 of the American Public is against us joining world war ii. 83 . Thats what fdr was up against. Some of that was just, we dont want to fight another war. Some of that was the people who want to fight against, we actually think have the better idea. How did they go about cultivating, we talk about dennis for a little bit, whos a worthwhile just to spend a little time on. Im such a good twist when it comes to him. Anyway. Talk about him a little bit. Lawrence denys had been a state department official, he had been, gone to harvard. A very aerial date, particular guy. He had kind of a Substack Contrary next to him. You couldnt complement him without him insulting you for complimenting him. Theyre kind of guy. He also, in his gruffness in is contrary, nice made everybody fall in love with him. That he was seen, men, women, old, young, didnt matter. Everybody had a crush on lawrence tennis. He slipped his way through the 1930s. In a way that he didnt understand where his wife minded. A lot of interesting stuff about him. He was Writing Speeches and books for the isolationists. And the isolationists werent calling themselves fascists overtly. But they had a leading intellectual selfdescribed Fascist In America writing their stuff. And dennis was a favorite of the not see government in berlin. They brought him over from nuremberg rallies. They brought him over to germany and gave him access to everybody up to an including hitler. And he used it to essentially become a very well networked, very influential person. He interviewed mussolini, it viewed hillary. Spent time with all the most important diplomats in four leaders of the time. And then he came home and he wrote speeches for isolationist senators and books for isolationist wives and heroes. And he was one of the Sedition Trial Defendants and he was so arrogant he not only defended himself in court. But he insisted that there should be mental examinations of his codefendants. Was there was the theres actually a way out of. They agree, theyll want metal examinations. He is, hes the leading, i mean, he said theres a leading fascist American Intellectual the document. Also the seed is being planted intimate fertile soil for a bunch of. Reasons i want if you could talk a little bit about why thats the case. There is the fact that world war i was brutal. And awful. And theres an interesting thing that happens in both this book and ultra, which is that people who totally understandably and reasonably were like, that was a disaster. Being kind of prepared to be like, were never doing that again. In that posture, which is not at all or crazy posture, but totally rational posture. Being the kind of Slippery Slope by which they end up in first isolationism, and then a red fascism. You have, that you have the depression, and then you have this sense of like the brokenness of the american system. Slash, the messiness of democracy. All three of those things are running themes in the people that are pushing for, proposing for in the case of hualong, embodying an alternate to that. Yes. I think its easiest to see it when you look at what the germans were secretly telling us. So, one of the things we now know, and this is an ultra, it in the book to. There was a really big, really aggressive, really well funded secret german propaganda effort targeting the american people. And what were they trying to do . Theyre basically trying to do three things. I guess you could narrow down to. One, to support isolationism. However they could. However you wanted to hear, they would help you hurt. Any argument against the americans joining the war. Theyre all for that. They also wanted to turn us against our allies by making us see fascism as preferable to every other former government. They are arguing that we shouldnt go to war to defend our ally britain, in what sense are they really are ally . Theyre corrupt. Theyre an empire. Theyre cruel. Their week. The germans, you have a much better idea are going to run over them in a matter of weeks. Why would we side with the Failing Empire that we should present. And now with the german to have a better idea idea. Theyre trying to make us believe that we are inherently weak. That we should change our own form of government. And that by having a democracy, we are opening ourselves up to be controlled by the jews. To be controlled by international forces. To be controlled by those who would send us into the meat grinder of these wars. Really, we should just let germany went inside with them. Theyre trying to articulate all of those things through any american voices they could put their words in the mouth of. So, it members of congress. If u. S. Senators. Its people like lawrence tennis who are their funding up there was a. George sylvester vera, an American Army agent whos running like 12 different publications. Its Publishing Houses that theyve bought. Its magazines. The messages that they were trying to sell us, to me, its just unnerving and clarifying to see them. Because so much the story that we are still being sold by those who would prefer that we became a strongman former government instead of a democracy today. The exact same message. Marlo thomas my father founded Saint Jude Childrens Research Hospital because he believed no child should die in the dawn of life. In 1984, a patient named stacy arrived, and it began her familys touching story that is still going on today. Vicki Childhood Cancer, its just hard. Stacey passed on Christmas Day of 1986. There is no pain like losing a child, but saint jude gave us more years to love on her each day. Marlo thomas you can join the battle to save lives. For just 19 a month, youll help us continue the lifesaving research and treatment these kids need now and in the future. Jessica i remember as a child, walking the halls of saint jude, and watching my sister fight for her life. We never imagined that we would come back. And then my son charlie was diagnosed with ewings sarcoma. Vicki im thinking, we already had a catastrophic disease in our family. Not my grandson too. Marlo thomas st. Jude has helped push the overall Childhood Cancer survival rate from 20 when it opened to 80 today. Join with your credit or debit card for only 19 a month, and well send you this saint jude tshirt that you can proudly wear to show your support. Jessica for anybody that would give, the money is going towards research, and you are the reason my child is here today. Charlie i was declared this will be two years cancer free. But theres thousands and thousands of kids who need help. Saint jude, how many lives they do save is just so many. Marlo thomas charlies progress warms my heart, but memories of Little Angels like stacy are why we need your help. Please become a saint jude partner in hope right now. [music playing] sniffing i know my old spice longlasting scents anywhere. Thats me, mr. Cole. Oh. The messages that, its not sniffing mmm lets talk about a raise. just there are minority groups that if you, out these minority groups are secretly powerful. They are the hidden power behind the scenes. And you think youre controlling the government. You think youre voting for people. Your vote doesnt really matter. Because theres a secret cabal. Because the secret kabul. It means we can all participate in a democracy, why would we give the secret cabal of vote, what the government is to be able to do is protect us from those people . We need a government that is strong, that has authority. That can protect us from those people, to vote is cute, but its week. And this is the only way that we can officially compete with the real countries on earth, the real strong countries, you would say today, china, russia, hungary. Right . That message is the same. To turn us against each other. To make us believe that democracy doesnt work. To align us with a strongman countries in other parts of the world. The other piece of it is that there is no noble truth. Really important. I can tell right now that this sounds woo woo. Its not new. Its very specific. Its one of the things that they tell you is, dont believe journalism. Dont believe science. Dont believe experts. Dont believe history. Its all fake. Its all designed to bamboozle you. None of these expertise. None of the socalled sources of expertise or real. They only knowable truth is something that you feel in your gut. And let me tell you what to feel in your gut. Separating us from the idea of noble truth means we dont recognize real, practical problems in the world. We dont recognize real Practical Solutions to those problems, which we should put our government into. It means that youre very susceptible to both Conspiracy Theories and perceptible to suggestion. From the leader who want you to do things that you probably would not do on your own team if your wits about you. And that dislocation from the truth, dont trust the media, dont trust science, dont trust experts. Dont trust any political opposition dont trust journalism. That is part of the authoritarian project, and it always has been. Heres one of the things that is so fastening to me in reading the book. Everything you just described, when they happen now. When versions of them happened now. There is this very, i think, somewhat a historical, but also understandable tendency, to put them on the technology of the time. All of the same traits that i think we try to see as an outgrowth of some technological moment here. Platform moment. Its just all there. Its like analog versions of it. As far as i can tell, almost as effective. Yeah, the thing that has changed, i think is the iterative nature of the media. Your ability to talk back in a social environment. What that does, i think it can work as an accelerant. Somebody says a lighter, you repeat the lie back to them, okay, heres a bigger lie. Okay. Hit the back that amygdala. It helps those messages be targeted better. Yeah, there is a very very famous Celebrity Pilot in her day. Pilots used to be like the kardashians. In the travis kelces. They were everything. Everything altogether. Who doesnt want to be a pilot. Exactly. They were the celebrities of the. You cannot believe. After a millionaire heart, amelia air hearted. The most famous female e. V. A. Tricks in the country was laura angles. Little house on the prairie . No. Her eighth cousin. Laura angles eight cousin. Dont get it twisted. Youre about to hear how this ingalls rolled. She flew an airplane over the white house and drop pamphlets over the white house out of an airplane, that were very impressive. Also you want to see those pamphlets. She was actually working for the gestapo. She was an american who was on the payroll of the knots. She was answering to the top gestapo agent in the united states. She was fully getting paid, had a monthly stipend. There is this great moment, have you ever, you know how you do Times Machine for old New York Times articles . If you have a New York Times subscription, you can use the time machine. Turns, out theres a limit to how much you can use the time machine. You found it . I found. By spending a lot of time with laura angles. Getting kicked in the barn for him. Thats it. Sorry. [laughter] you are over served on stories about laura angles. Not the ava tricks. I got cut off. They called me. I was like, i dont think you had my number. [laughter] she was so famous there was an article in the newspaper, in the New York Times, in 1934 when she got a speeding ticket, article in the New York Times. By 1935 she was so famous there was an article in the New York Times, what you got a parking ticket. It was crazy famously was. And then shes working for the gestapo and dropping flyers over the white house. Theres this amazing story from when she goes on trial, one of the witnesses against her in her trial was a surgeon who operated on her, who said that after she was under the laughing gas, all she wanted to talk about was her swastika necklace. One of the most influential and popular celebrities in the entire country. Her a spell losing the views that she had and being such a daredevil in the way she was espousing them. We dont have anything like that today. Thats a different kind of power in terms of that level of mass fame. Harder to achieve now. Because of a fracture to this. There is this people in the book, laura angles a great example, look youve never heard of and theyre massively famous at the time. Theres a bunch of those that you can tell the story of. And then this henry for. And, you know, its so funny, because i know, again, the Broad Strokes of henry ford, brilliant industrialist. For voters. Basically created the modern means, the modern Factory Method of assembling production. Brought costs down in doing so. Paid his workers a higher wage than others. Also arriving antisemite. Thats like may two sentences on forward. The last part of, that last sentence, i knew it. But when you read it in your book when you reencounter henry ford on the subject of the jews, in the links that he went to, i really dont think that we, i think that you need to kind of like reverse the order of that bio. Yeah. In the two sentences. This guy was wildly, dangerous and bad. And aligned with the worst forces basically in human history. I knew about fords antisemitism, i think, as if it were a private vice. He was a different thing. It was one of the things he contributed to this book. You want to read that part . I would like you to read that. Because my if i read that part . [applause] rgent to fight deep odors 3 times better than detergent alone. I love that. Try new tide fabric rinse. A force to be reckon with. No, not you saquon. Hm . You your Business Bank account with quickbooks money, now earns 5 apy. 5 apy . Thats new yup, thats how you business differently. There is a lot of information out there. Hamas slaughtered more than 1200 innocent people, holds innocent hostages, and raped countless innocent women. And now hamas is trying to hide Sexual Violence against women. They dont want those women to be able to talk about what happened to them stand with palestinians and israelis for basic human rights. Stand for all women. He was one of the most successful and celebrated industrialists on the planet. His antisemitism was rank. And it was unchecked. He spewed it freely in private tirades among friends, family, close business cohorts, newspaper reporters, pretty much anybody within earshot. In the office and in private chats, and interviews at dinners, even on camping trips. A close friend wrote in his diary after witnessing one late night around the campfire diatribe. Ford attributes all evil to jews. Ford even ordered his engineers to forego the use of any brass in his model t automobile he called brass, a quote, jew metal. Force that whatever theres anything wrong with the country youll find the jews on the job there. He blamed a vast jewish conspiracy for inciting his workers and stockholders to demand that he share a sliver more of the expensive ford Company Profits with them. He blamed jews for the Gold Standard and advent of the Federal Reserve bank. He blamed jews for ruining Motion Pictures in america. He blamed jews for ruining popular music, he blamed jews for ruining baseball. Ford was hardly the only radical antisemite circa 1920, but it addition to his fortune in famous name in his iconic company, he had a megaphone your average crazy uncle lacked. He had twitter. Im getting. Its x, im sources pay x. He had a newspaper. It was called the Dearborn Independent. Which he had purchased for a song in 1918. The paper was a big money loser in the beginning, poor to middling circulation. Fords editorial harangues did little to draw new readers. How many attacks on the men who had beaten ford in the Michigan Senate race to the public really want . Oh, but Truman Newberry had stolen that election. One of the Dearborn Independent editorial staffers was a veteran of the new york newspaper wars. He had an idea. He wrote to fords righthand man, find an evil to attack. Lets find some sensationalism. And lo the answer landed on not long after. A newly translated english language edition of a book titled the protocols of the meetings of the learned elders of zion. The pamphlet was the work of rabidly antisemitic russian fabulous who were furious at the bolsheviks toppling of the old czarist it aristocracy. Theres artists put portrayed the Russian Revolution was not just a local affair, but as the early innings of a plot by a cabal of allpowerful jewish schemers to take over the world. The protocols was billed as the product of a Surreptitious Notetaker At A top secret meeting. Wherein these jewish Puppet Masters had drawn up their strategy. There was no secret meeting, obviously, there is no secret plot. There is no surreptitious notetaker, the whole thing was a work of fiction. A very considered, very deliberately. And a very dangerous piece of propaganda. Ford and his newspaper bore down on it with alacrity. They started a new weekly series in the Dearborn Independent based on their protocols. It would end up being a 92 part weekly series. Every week, for 92 weeks, headlines like these. The International Jew the worlds problem. And jewish jazz, moron music becomes our national music. This one, the perils of baseball. Too much to. These headlines were splashed on the pages of fords paper, which was distributed in ford dealerships across the country. Ford also saw to the publication of a series in book form, it was titled the International Jew. It rained four volumes. Never mind that the protocols was exposed as makebelieve in 1921, right in the middle of henry fords 92 week series. His weekly International Jew essays continued without pause, and ford motor dealers kept tossing the latest addition of the Dearborn Independent onto the seat of newlypurchased model ts. All of the country. Ford saw to it that the four volumes of the International Jew were translated and published worldwide in 12 international editions, including one in germany. And put a pin in that. Of all the contributions henry ford made to this world, but one of them was this. The most prolific, most sustained published attack on jews the world had ever known. The german edition of fords book had landed in the hands of one particularly gifted propagandist. One adolf hitlers book, mein kampf was published in 1925, the author appeared to lift not just ideas but whole passages from fords own publications. Mein kampfs First Addition exceeds bowled four by name, hit the road, it is jews who govern the Stock Exchange forces of the american union. Every year makes them more and more the controlling masters of the producers in a nation of 120 million, only a single great man, ford, to their fury still maintains full independence. By this point, hitler had already mulled sending german shock troops to major American Cities to aid in when you hoped would be henry fords run for president in 1924. When a reporter from the detroit news showed up at 19 Party Headquarters in munich on december 1931, to interview hitler, she had a series that was called five minutes with men in public eye. And she had her five minutes with hitler. She went to hitlers office, she was surprised to find hanging on the wall behind others desk, a large framed portrait of a very famous american. Hitler explained to the newspaper woman, i regard henry ford as my inspiration. The detroit reporter asked hitler that day, point blank, why he was antisemitic . He said without hesitation, somebody has to be blamed for a troubles. I feel like you go back in time to that, you go back to then the, the worst thing that you can find, if you could time a sheen yourself back to the futurestyle and see your family or people you are interested in that time, the worst thing that you can imagine is that they have a portrait of hitler at that time. I think hitler having a portrait of you i did know that was an option. Thats worse. [applause] orse [applause] hi, im steve. Here is why, i think, that im lea. And we live in north pole, alaska. As i got older, my hearing was not so good so i got hearing aids. My vision was not as good as it used to be, got a change in prescription. But the thing missing was my memory. I saw a prevagen commercial and i thought, that makes sense. I observed the changes in steves memory and i thought i should try that too. After taking prevage, i just didnt have to work so hard to remember things. Prevagen. At stores everywhere without a prescription. Passage is so important, and you can hear the breath in the room go out. Which is that to return to what i was saying earlier, i think we have a sense of lake, fascism is a european production. But that passage is like, did we explore this . How much is it actually coming from us . This is not the only place thats the case. But talk a little bit about like, that notion that antisemitism, which i think everyone understands is ubiquitous and universal in some senses. Its existed in many different places in many different forms. Its not particular to one area or one place. But i do think theres a sense that its this endemic european problem. And that the u. S. Was maybe like a little bit more immune from it. And that just is not the case. Yeah. One of the things that is so unsettling about the henry for dynamic is the idea that it was a west to east convince. You also saw that at the university of arkansas law school. Theyre not seize sent a young, important, rising star, not see lawyer to spend a year at the university of arkansas lawyers doing a study of american race law because they wanted to learn about how america could be seen as a paragon of democracy in a good year country in the world well oppressing African Americans to the degree that we were. Well oppressing indigenous americans, native americans, to the degree that we were. And well conquering countries around the world and subjugating the people in those countries, as subject and not citizens. Looks good, and their constitution says none of this is possible. But theyre still doing it. They thought that was an excellent idea. And then so they sent an azzi lawyer, Heinrich Creager to the university of arkansas to be to do a deep study of american, racist law. And the way that you can have the 14th Amendment and also jim crow. And also lynching. And they brought that, it was an Anti Government production, they brought his report back to munich in berlin, they used it as the basis for the basis for writing the nuremberg laws. To strip their juice of citizenship in germany. They learn some of that from us. And if you think that its something in the german character that makes you susceptible to fascism, i invite you to spend time thinking about that anecdote. Its very disturbing. But. He wasnt. Gain flings with oxi boost and febreze. Narrator time is running out to give a yearend gift like no other, a gift that can help st. Jude Childrens Research Hospital save lives. Ava it is my first time having cancer, and its the very worst. Woman you just have to give. You have to give someone that hope. Because of st. Jude, she has a chance at life. Narrator every gift counts, and whatever you can give will make a difference for children like ava. Make your donation today to help st. Jude save lives. Clarity right now around the question of exactly how many women and children hostages are left inside of gaza. The expectation right now here in israel, and frankly inside gaza is there is going to be more fighting before there is going to be more talking you can see some smoke rising in gaza behind me from israeli air strikes. Are you allowing yourself to be hopeful [ applause ] there has been headlines the last few days about the sort of vision being put together around people around donald trump. About what a second term would look like, and particularly staffing it and particularly who the lawyers would be and what the lawyers would do and how the lawyers would approach their job. One of the things that i recognized in the last days particularly of the Trump Administration is that the rule of law, which is like a grandiose and abstract term is just as a kind of sociological fact what the sort of the sort of acultcheration of what a class of lawyers will or wont go for at a certain moment. Yeah. In reality, when its time to do the coup, which lawyers will be like yes and which will be no . And thats like a sociological fact as opposed to an abstract of law because the law is no, you cant. Yes. But if you get people with bad enough faith and bad enough intentions and sort of morally dubious enough and smart enough. Smart enough is important. They can come up with ways to make a colorable argument that yes. And we got lucky in so far as there was really not there were a few, but there were many more who didnt. Yes. But that didnt idea that, like, it comes down to that, which it sort of shows up in that fayetteville chapter, that everyone who is operating the system of jim crow in the south who are lawyers knows what theyre doing, that really haunts me. Yeah. Because its what i think about the most when i read the stories about the 2025 project about trumps plans, and about what ultimately the guardrail is that keeps liberal democracy and the rule of law and not Something Like a dictatorship. Right. And to be clear, i should just say this. The book is called prequel not because of the bad guys but because of The Good Guys. Yes. From is no only hitler is hitler. Only nazis are nazis. There is no modern analogy to Germany Under Hitler and the nazis from 1933 to 1945. There isnt one. Dont try to make one. The prequel to people to sort of learn from here, the story that went before that feels like the antecedent to what were in now were the americans who were fighting against the ultra right in this previous time. Both in the government, but also mostly outside of the Government People who were trying to outflank and expose them and hold them to account. And thats so i always feel like i know its obvious to everybody here. Its important to say. But in terms of whats going on in contemporary terms, ive been thinking about this project 2025 stuff, and i realize im having another one of those moments which you know me well enough to know that happens all the time that everybody sees it within way, and im really stuck on a piece of it that i see differently, and i cant let it go, and thats the Insurrection Act part of it. So this reporting in the Washington Post last sunday that trump, the project 2025 plan involves invoking the Insurrection Act on the first day that he is sworn in for his next term. And it keeps getting discussed how crazy is it that trump wants to use the military against peaceful protesters. First off, the protesters are hypothetical. We dont know that they exist. Also, there is nothing in them invoking the Inside Correction Act that has anything to do with protests. If you on your first day in office give yourself the power to use the u. S. Military against u. S. Civilians on u. S. Soil, do you think it matters whether or not there is a Protest Anywhere in the country that day or any subsequent day . [ applause ] it is the Chekovian Bloated Gun Sitting On The Table in the first act of the play that will be used by the end of the play. And it is accruing power to himself in a way that its not like theyll do it for 12 hours and then give it back, right. The idea of the authoritarian project is to gather all power to the leader, both inside the government and outside the government. So youre not allowed to be a political opponent. Youre also not allowed to be a media critic, and youre not really allowed to be Civic Society if that entail nice criticism or opposition of the leader. This is how fascism works there may be other sources of authority when the leader takes over, but those other sources of authority within the government will be either neuter order closed down. So the congress will not function. The Fourth Estate will no longer be free. Civil society will not be allowed to do anything that is critical or in opposition. Political opponents will not be tolerated. Ultimately disfavored minorities will be scapegoated, and you head down an eliminationist path. This is how these things go. And to know that the i will accrue all power to myself, i will unify civilian and military authority on day one, and have that be the announced plan, it just means that were there. Right . This is it. This is its not a were not in a hypothetical confrontation with a leader who promises authoritarian rule. We are in an explicit choice. The choice part is the part i think a lot of people have hard time with it. And its something that appears in the book which is that fascism in both its italian and german forms and differently in spain actually because it functions a little differently there. Yeah. But it is a popular movement. Its not the trope this is the era hitler was elected. There is Mass Mobilization and tons of people and millions of people who are yes, we want this. And there is sort of a fascinating irony to it, which it is a Mass Movement of actual grassroot supporters mobilizing in favor of what will ultimately be an authoritarian project that makes the Civil Society that allows for Mass Movements basically to go away. Yeah. And i think a lot of people probably in this room probably listen to this podcast or watching this have a hard time being like how is this popular . Right. How is this popular and why is this popular . And im curious if you feel like youve got insights that youve drawn from this period of historical study. Again, its not like a precise apples to apple. Yeah. But people wanting a charismatic leader who is going to fight for them and sort of defend their purity or place. Embody the nation. Embody the nation against its enemies foreign and domestic, that is a very that has been a very popular recipe. And there is different kinds of authoritarianism. Fascism is a Mass Mobilization movement. And thats also complex, right, because one of the things that happens in fascist society is it becomes impossible not to be part of the movement. So you may be an enthusiast, but even if youre not, youre probably going to be throughout wearing the badge and doing the thing because there is no choice. Thats you create the illusion of unitary nation who is all subject to and a fan of the great leader about whom there is a cult of personality and who youre not allowed to oppose. There is an amazing huey long line. I dont think he was a fascist, but he was an authoritarian who says you can get to a point where it looks like its a democracy. Its not a democracy anymore because people are just so happy with the leader. Yeah. Yeah. No one is complaining anymore because you just solved everything. Yes. This is his line about louisiana. Why bother voting . We all agree. That was kind of his line. It is amazing too that louisiana under huey long was routinely described as a dictatorship. And not like people were throwing that as an epithet. In court it was described as a dictatorship. It was a defense actually used by people who were put on trial in Federal Court for having been part of his immensely corrupt Graft Schemes in louisiana. The judge the judges would say, well, you werent huey long, so you didnt have a choice in the matter. This was a dictatorship. You actually didnt have a free will, so yes, you took the bribes, but you were kicking them up to him. I was accepted that he was a dictator. And thats why native fascists loved the idea of huey long. And thats confusing if you look at authoritarianism as a conservative arrests have liberal things, because lots of thing about huey long kind of look liberal. Very leftcoated, yes. Policy does not matter. Its about accruing all power to the leader. Thats all that matters. And theyll say and do anything in order to get all the power. But once theyve got it, thats the point. There is a certain kind of specific grant visual grammer and sort of language syntax and cadence to fascism or to broadly authoritarian movements to popular leadership cults. There is a picture in the book of huey longs portrait over a rally. You see it immediately and youre like i know exactly what this is. Yeah. Like there is The Big Picture of the guy over it. And i feel that way about to bring it back to contemporary, i feel that about the use of the word vermin. By trump this week. By trump this weekend in a speech to describe his political domestic enemies. There is something in the same way when you see that photo, i know what im looking at. When i hear a Populist Leader describe the other people in the political spectrum as vermin, who have infested the nation, i just know what that is. Yeah. Immediately. Everybody knows what that is. And i think he knows what that is. Yes. Yes. There is also something there is a little a little bit of i dont know what we should call it, as a Playground Thing that he does in terms of his politics. Do you remember where the idea of fake news came from, that phrase . That phrase was not Donald Trumps phrase. No. That was used to describe what was happening in Russian Information Spaces where they were writing legitimately fake madeup news stories and then siloing them into the u. S. News ecosystem through prorussian sort of covert sources. And it was a legitimate thing. This thing didnt happen in montenegro, but russian Propaganda Sources wrote this happened in montenegro, and now weirdly, there are rightwing news sources in america who are describing this thing that happened in montenegro that never happened in montenegro. Like it was real thing, and it was part of what was going on with the russian disinformation and election interference efforts in 2016, and people were starting to figure it out that that was one of the weird things that was happening in our Information Universe in the election and trump adopted it and said all news is fake news. So then you couldnt use that term anymore to describe this one technical thing which we had been previously describing. Right. And without a term to describe it, we then lost track of it. Because then it became a thing that had a meaning less name. So then you cant talk than thing happening. There is some of that. And i think that with what . With what . With the use of the word vermin. Okay. And with the way he is now calling his enemies fascist. Yes, he has started doing, they he has started calling you and me and everybody who is not team trump is a fascist, that he has to save the country from the fascists. And he is using this terminology, which is overtly and obviously fascist callback language, things like, you know, enemy of the people, yes, okay. But calling the internal enemy vermin that needs to be exterminated, he knows what he is doing. And that will make everybody go wow, thats the most fascist thing ive ever heard. No, youre the fascist. And then all of his enemies are fascist. And then the word fascist doesnt mean anything anymore. Its just an epithet that flies around in politics and we dont have a word anymore what this thing is that he is trying goat us to do. [ applause ] so as he starts to advance what i think is a more overtly authoritarian project, watch for him to call everybody else an authoritarian and a tyrant and fascist, and all these things. Its to rob the words of their function. There is lots of there are people in your book who are want to be the next, you know, american hitler and dont have it in them. And i dont mean morally. I just mean whatever the stuff is, the charisma, whatever it is. And i guess something i was thinking about reading your book what is the thing . What is the thing that makes huey long successful in becoming hughley long . What is the thing that makes trump successful . A particular kind of type, authoritarian populist demagogue. Different people have tried it in different ways. It has a lot of commonalities in the rhetoric. And some succeed and some dont. Yes. And if feels alchemical to me at some level. I cant tell you what it is because i can describe. I understand the basic dynamics of it. I understand blaming some small disfavored minority for the nations ills and thus invigorating a Feeling Of Community knowsolidarity that comes with the nations blood coursing through the rally and being directed in one place like a bunch of solar panels aimed at a water tower, boiled and i can look at rhetoric and had presence and charisma which is 100 true about him. But in the end, if you ask me to if i had the nba draft of fascist autocrat, and i was running them through the paces, i dont know in the end what makes someone work for someone and not for someone else. I i totally this is a very unpopular opinion, but i do not believe that the leader matters. This is what i sort of think too. The movement matters. Its prior. He backs into it at some level. You need a country that is looking for an authoritarian solution. And you need people who are willing to submit themselves to the authority of the person who says they deserve it. And so youve got franco was nap napoleon sized. Hitler was a jerk. Mussolini was a journalist. They arent the worst things in the world, but not a great linkedin setup for then i want to be ill duce. That transformed those countries against their will. Those countries were subject to an antidemocratic proauthoritarian movement that had skills. And the people were ready to do it. And so you end up with a huey long being very successful in the project he was part of. The person who fdr most feared running against in 1936 was huey long. And in 1935, as huey long was gearing up to start his president ial campaign where he was going to run against fdr, and fdr believed if anybody could beat him, it would be huey, that in 1935, fdr was at the summer white house in hyde park, new york, and he had summoned Father Coughlin to come talk to him about the fact that coughlin was clearly supporting huey long. He believed that coughlin and long together would absolutely bring america to a fascist dictatorship within two years. He thought it was an unstoppable force, the two of them, and he was there to try to talk coughlin out of it. As coughlin was driving to fdrs house that day for that talk, huey long was assassinated. That is 1935, and that is the way things went that way. What huey longs power was, i think what was magic about him was his unbridled appetite for power. Right. The thing that he did was, yes, he had he paved roads and he gave away free School Textbooks and he was a spell binding orator, and he wore silk outfits. There are lots of things you could say about him. But really what he was a myself maestro of was power. He never met a source of power that he could not accrue to himself. That is the thing you need to be able to do to lead a society in that direction while telling a country, telling people that they need do it, that they can only trust you, that their enemies are out to get you and youre the only one that can protect them from those enemies. Thats how it works. boy youre not gonna believe this girl. girl mom dad mom, dad, have you seen this . boy . I did it. vo wells fargo helps thousands of students go to college. girl he got in. vo . By funding 107 Million Dollars in scholarships and programming for diverse communities. boy dont worry, ill be back. vo when a bank does what it says. mom i knew you could do it. vo . 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So dont wait, call the number on your screen. Or donate at mercyships. Org. The power goes out and we still have wifi to do our homework. And thats a good thing . Great in my book who are you . No power . No problem. Introducing stormready wifi. Now you can stay reliably connected through Power Outages with unlimited cellular data and up to 4 hours of battery backup to keep you online. Only from xfinity. Home of the xfinity 10g network. We want to say a big thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you. We couldnt do it without you. Thank you for the privilege of your time. Can i ask you a personal question . Yes. So i make this joke when i talk about my job where i Say Something along the lines of my staff here has heard this, its now going on eight years of my one precious life dealing with, thinking about this dude. Huey long . Huey long. [ laughter ] and like, obviously like worlds smallest violin, im extremely lucky to do what i do, and i love what i do, but there is an Exhaustion Factor to it. You guys feel that way too . [ applause ] but there is also like there is exhaustion, but there is also you got to be indefatigable because the movement on the other side seems indefatigable. And how do you are you exhausted too . Seriously, how do you . Because people ask me all the time. And i feel for myself, i feel very missiondriven. I feel like the stakes are incredibly high, when you just said what you said before when were looking at someone talk about doing this day one, were in it. And i felt that way for much of this. That is animating. It gives me a sense of zeal and mission and energy. But also its like sometimes look like i cannot. You know. And i just balance those two. But im curious how you do. I think one thing that you and i have talked about this over beers. But one of the things that is the privilege and a pleasure of our job, maybe not a pleasure. A privilege, is that if youre here and if you watch msnbc, and if you know us, youre thinking about this stuff all the time, right . Youre consuming the news all the time, and you are thinking about our country, and you are worrying about the worst people in america and what they might do next all the time. We all are. You then have to do all of that, and then go do your jobs. Right. Chris and i are doing all of that, but then our job is processing. So its therapy. Were all being put through the same ringer, but chris and i get to do our day jobs talking about this stuff. And that is a great privilege. And i feel that way. Yes. And to that end, part of my day job has also been writing this book and doing ultra and other projects like that. Im working on ultra season 2 right now, which is very exciting. [ applause ] and what is energizing about that is The Good Guys. You think the bad guys in this are obscure. Most of them are, other than coughlin and lindbergh and ford and those guys. Most of the bad guys are obscure. But the really obscure people are The Good Guys are, the americans who you know, the beleaguered secretary who is working for this minnesota senator who is such a fricking creep, every time she gets paid by the senate, she has to hand back half of her salary to him in cash. Thats how much power she had in the workplace. And yet she went to the fbi and she told the fbi what her senator boss was doing with that wellknown nazi agent. That is a woman who did not sign up for the marines and plan to paratroop, plan to be a paratrooper somewhere, but she is somebody who was not in a powerful position at all, and she did something that was really important for her country. I am very enthused to learn her story. Im very enthused to learn about the guy who was like this really milquetoast normal Middle Of The Road guy whos field of expertise was direct mail advertising, and yet when his son came home from his first semester at college and said dad, im getting all this propaganda, this antisemitic progerman, profascism propaganda at school, its really freaking me out, i dont know what to do with it, he was well, i do happen to have an area of expertise that relates to stuff being sent in the mail. And he applied his random area of expertise to becoming a oneman expository journalist and investigator to find out and to literally document for the god of the country a multimilliondollar covert Propaganda Campaign that the germans were running through 24 congressional offices and multiple front organizations all over the country. And he exposed it. And hes was an ad man. He was a random civilian who did this. Im so energized by stories likes that because who is going to be that secretary . Who is going tobythat ad man, who is going to be working Running A Spy Ring because they noticed german groups in los angeles were starting to have hitler youth summer camps and they were worried about that. Who ra the heroes among us today who didnt sign up to be heroes, but heroism coming to their door. Cassidy hutchinson, right . I am energized by that. But i also feel like for all of us, being a 250yearold democracy is hard. There arent very many. And the seeds of antidemocratic projects and authoritarian projects are within the heart of every person who lives in a democracy. Because democracy like you were saying at the outset is about us all deciding something together, us as equals with our rights and our sacred lives given to us by almighty god and equal before one another can decide together how will be be governed. And that is a beautiful thing unless you think some of the people in your polity with you shouldnt get a say because their creeps . And who among us has not felt that way. Right. Its not an evil thing to think actually, ive got a better idea than you, you shouldnt get a say. Its a natural thing. Buff as small d democrats, we have to be committed to the idea that this is a better system of government than all the others for all of its flock. The great tactical disadvantage for those of us who will fight for democracy is that fighting for democracy, you have one tool to do it. Its democracy. You must use democratic means to defeat antidemocratic forces. And that can feel Like Fighting with one hand tied behind your back. But youre either a democrat or youre not. And that makes it its its hard. Weve got to do it. There is a lot of information out there. Hamas is a Terrorist Group oppressing the Palestinian People. Hamas refused a continued ceasefire, a continued pause in fighting and more aid from israelis in exchange for just freeing more hostages. Instead, hamas resumed attacks. 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For just 19 a month you can help Planned Parenthood ensure access to care, no matter what. limu emu doug [bell ringing] and doug says, you can customize and save hundreds on Car Insurance with liberty mutual. he hits his mark center stage and is crushed by a baby grand piano. Are you replacing me . With this guy . Customize and save with liberty bibberty. He doesnt even have a mustache oh, look a bibu. [limu emu squawks. ] only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. I have a few questions from folks in the audience. This is from angela in stanford, connecticut, and she says, and like this question, i dont know if you have people like this in your life, but how do you handle Close Friends or family or others that you know who have extreme or different political views . Asking for a friend. I live in Rural Western massachusetts. And living in Rural Western new england like dirt road new england has a lot of great things about it. Now we have the internet, which is new, which has really made things a lot better. But one of the things that i think as a kid who grew up in the suburbs and who lived in cities which michigan whole life, to now have lived in the country for the past 28 years, one of the things it has taught me is that politics is only one thing in any one persons life. Yes. And even for people who are committed news junkies and political activists or work for a Political Party or theyre even an elected official themselves, they also have bears getting into their trash. And they also have a lot of heartbreak about whats happened to the patriots, and they also have a lot of a lot of heartbreak. And they are taking care of their elderly parent who they didnt expect to be taking care of at this point in their life. And theyve got both kids and parent, and theyre the responsible Family Member, and theyve got another Family Member who is in recovery who theyre so hopeful for, but also so scared for. And there is i believe something really important that you can do in your nonpolitical life that will improve your political life, which is have personal relationships with people facetoface that are about everything besides politics too. And its hard to do. I think postcovid its even harder to do, but do you have a book club . Do you want to maybe start a book club . It can be on zoom. Do you have a neighbor who lives alone who wants to come to thanksgiving . Do you have, you know, want to be part of a civic group thats working on a local pipeline thats going to come through your town . Do you want to volunteer at the Vets Hospital . Something that connects you to the people in your life immediate area that isnt about finding consensus about whats going to happen in the 2024 election is good for your community. It is good for your soul, and when things get very hard, being able to look at other people in the eye, recognize each other as humans can save your life. Yeah, agreed. [ applause ] ive got another one. This is from pat s. In warwick, pennsylvania. This is completely out of the blue, and i dont think a Single Person in this audience has given this any thought. But im going ask it any way. Okay. Nice leadin. Good. What do you think of the latest polls [ laughter ] why do they show biden and trump neck and neck. Anyone . I dont know. Ask president romney. I dont know. I mean, youre actually much better at reading polls than i am. No, you are. You do a better job. Youre more supple with them and everything. I just look at them and go bah i feel like polls in my adult lifetime are garbage. [ applause ] except occasionally theyre right. Yes. Except when theyre not. Except when theyre not. So yes, you can spend all your time worrying about the polls, or you can work as hard as possible for the candidate you want to win. And, you know, sometimes there is interesting cross tabs in information about like a specific group of people who used to think this about your chosen candidate now thinks this about that person. Okay that might be helpful in terms of the way you want to go work for your candidate. Right. But the point of them, especially for us as a public, for people who are not, you know, political professionals is that they tell you what work needs to be done. So if youre worried about the polls, calibrate your level of political involvement to match exactly your anxiety about the polls. If youre freaked out about it, just do something. Do something with other humans. Youll be better for it and youll be more resilient, again, in difficult times ahead. All right. This one is from debbie p. In chapel hill, north korea. I think i might have met debbie before the show who came here from chapel hill to see us here today. Wow. I think thats you. And this is a tradecraft question that i also have, having watched you up close for years. How do you come up with such amazing topics that start out seeming totally random but drive a stake through the heart of a relevant event . It is its that meteor thing. I think i have but how, how . I want you to get real brass tacks. Process . Where does the seed come of the random anecdote that is the start of the thing . Youre reading all the time or you follow some set . Well, in general, its good to read all the time. I the one thing i always tells telepeople in our business, if will is one piece of advice coy impart to you, well, if youre a female person who is coming into this, first of all, never show your emotions. No one will understand. Otherwise, male or female. Good talk, good talk. Still true, hello. But in general, for everybody, read beyond the assigned reading. Whatever the assigned reading whats going on in the news cycle, read beyond that. You never know whats going to be relevant. Read stuff that interests you that is nonfiction and that is journalism and that is history and Academic Work that interests you. You never know when its going to be relevant and when its going to be a helpful contribution. So just in general. But the way that it works on a daytoday basis is that there is something going on in the news that im interested in or confused by or want to understand better, and i keep looking stuff up about it until i find something that interests me. And then i teach myself that thing and then i teach other people that think. But it depends. Your mileage may vary. My storytelling may not work for everybody. But if you dont mind coming along on the journey i am on, i really believe over the course of one conversation, you can get to a Graduate School Level of complexity with anybody as long as youre willing to start together in kindergarten. And thats why i [ applause ] thats why i like some people dont like that i repeat things, that ill restate and loop back and restate and loop back and restate. And some people find that very frustrating. I heard you the seventh time. I didnt need it the 17th. But thats because were starting here and were going here. And i need to make sure were all there, every step of the way. And the weirder the topic, or the more unfamiliar the proper nouns are, i think the more you have to just really Pay Attention to way you tell the story so that by the time you get to the point of it, there is an oh, it all comes together, i got it. And the way i always like my shorthand for myself is by the time we get to the end of the story, i want you to understand well enough that you can tell somebody else. Not just like send the clip of rachel doing it, but youve got it so you can tell that story. Thats what im always trying to do. Have you have you tweaked what are changes that youve made to your method, both like in process and in final versions over the course of the long career youve now had doing this . The a block keeps getting longer, which is, sorry, if you are represent one of our advertisers, im particularly sorry. A real consequence in that regard. I dont know. Like i said, i do have this kind of one gear brain. And so i dont think that ive changed very much in terms of the way i think about the news. I tried for a while to Pay Attention to the visual elements that are on the screen while i am talking, but that didnt work. So i gave up on that. That was my big try, my big effort to try to notice whats i feel like youre very involved in the production elements. Yes. But i dont look at them while im talking. Oh, you cant look at them while youre talking. No. Youre looking at them while youre talking . Im not aware of i will choose what almosts i want to be there, but i dont know when theyre on the screen, and i dont speak to them, and i dont know what youre looking at. Research hospital save lives. Woman cancer doesnt care how old you are, and its devastatingly scary. If youre donating to st. Jude, youre supporting finding a cure, because the fight never stops. Narrator every gift counts, and whatever you can give will make a difference for children like gideon. Make your donation today to help st. Jude save lives. Were traveling all across america talking to people about their hearts. Who wants to talk about their heart . [honking] hows the heart . Hows your heart . Hows your heart . Its good. Is it . I dont know. Its okay. Its okay. Yeah. Good. You sure . I think so. How do you know . It doesnt come with a manual and youre like oh, i got the 20,000 day check up, right . Let me show you something. Put two fingers right on those pads. Look at that. Thats your heart. 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Lowering bad cholesterol can be hard, even with a statin. Diets and exercise add to the struggle. Today, its possible to go from struggle to Cholesterol Success with leqvio. With a statin, leqvio is proven to lower bad cholesterol by 50 and keep it low with 2 doses a year. Common side effects were injection site reaction, joint pain, and chest cold. Ask your doctor about twiceyearly leqvio. Lower. Longer. Leqvio® im going to ask you this one, and i think this will probably be a our final one. Okay. Ill ask you two. Like a democratic moment. See . This is good. Thats exactly right. Sorry, gnome. I think i know part of the answer to this, and i think part of this is a little public record. But im curious to see. How do you decompress given the critical nature of your job . There is a little bit of fishing. I since i switched to mondays instead of being on five days a week, i know. [ booing ] more, more, more, more, more. Thank you. Heres the thing. I couldnt keep doing i was dying. And so im sorry that im only there on mondays, but i am alive. [ applause ] i really cant overemphasize how sustainable her entire workflow is. Like truly great. But the one thing that like now im one day a week, so im not dying, which is good. Except i did used to count for Compartmentalization Purposes on the schedule of the daily live show. And so what that meant is no matter how long i worked during the course of the day, i am live at 9 00 p. M. Eastern, and no longer live at 10 01, sorry, lawrence and then 10 01 i am done. And i will not work the rest of the evening unless there some breaking news thing and then i will do what i need to do in the morning before i start working. And there was an off switch and an on switch. A switch. And the switch is only there on mondays. And so whats happening is that im just working seven days a week, and im working until midnight every day. Because im doing all these other things which are fantastic. And it is actually its bad. I have to fix it. All right. Last question from millerton, new york, what keeps you up at night . Wine. I used to do friday night cocktail moments. If im in the same room with something that is over 80 proof right now, im awake for five days. A glass of wine, and i am up at 3 in the morning being 50 years old. So that is the true story about whats keeping me up at night. I just outgrew the ability to make cocktails. But in terms of this work, i do one of the reasons that i said that thing about trying to have some inperson connections with other people who live near you in your life right now, one of the reasons that i said that, and ive been trying to tell people that when ive been speaking at audiences for this book tour and stuff is because i do think that were going have a really hard year. And i think its going to be a really weird year. And if it goes very badly, its going to be more weird bad years after that. But regardless of how it goes a year from now, its going to be a really tough year. And therefore, i want us all to make ourselves resilient as we can. And that means not having baggage trailing behind you that you dont want to be trailing behind you. It means making up with your estranged Family Members. It means getting to know your neighbors. It means if you have very serious concerns about politics, it means working in a political campaign. It means having something to do with the civic life of where you are so that you are not alone while we have a tough year in this country. This is come for us in this generation in this country in this lifetime. And it the us not come for every generation. It has come for us, and we need to be up to it. And it means you cannot live in your phone. And you cannot you cant build from a position of despair and feeling powerless, and you need to have people who you can call. Not just because theyre on your side, but because you know them and they know you and you are americans together in a difficult moment. And i just i want with that kind of resilience for us all. And so start a book club. Yeah. Rachel maddow, ladies and gentlemen. [ applause ] are you still struggling with your bra . Its time for you to try knix. Makers of the worlds comfiest wireless bras. For revolutionary support without underwires, and sizes up to a gcup, find your new favorite bra today at knix. Com and si[quiet music]cup, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome americas mayor, Rudy Giuliani [crowd response] hello, everyone. It seems to me. We dont wanna find out three weeks from now even more proof that this election was stolen, do we