Transcripts For MSNBCW Weekends With Alex Witt 20191123

Wbur and msnbc contributor. Kimberly, youve seen the documents and all of the reporting about it. What do you see as being significant about them . Well, what it does is it creates a clear connection between this effort to remove the ukrainian ambassador, to recall her, and secretary of state mike pompeo and Rudy Giuliani. It just adds more factual basis to the two weeks of testimony that we just saw in the impeachment hearings, which shows an effort to remove yovanovitch from her post because giuliani and others who were a part of this parallel tract focused on this investigation, getting an investigation by ukrainian officials of joe biden. They saw her as an impediment to that, and this is a key part of this entire narrative that the democrats were laying out this week. And these documents show exactly how that took place, with the phone calls leading up to her recall. Okay. So, you have the state department denying congressional investigators access to the documents. And the way they got it now was this Oversight Organization sued to have them released. But youve touched on whats in them. Can you point to something specific as to why mike pompeo wants to keep this from congress . Well, i mean, i think its to the fact that this is pretty damning. If the state department was actively participating in a process with someone rudolph giuliani, who is not a state department official, who is not a white house official, who is the personal attorney for the president , who was running what was called during these hearings a domestic political earned, not part of regular statecraft, state diplomacy thats a pretty damning indictment of the state department if they were taking part in this, so i think thats part of the problem. We saw several people, even Gordon Sondland, who was appointed by the Trump Administration, a trump inaugural donor, saying that he, himself, was frustrated that the state department was not releasing documents and information to help him give his investigation. At this point, whatever the justification the state department has in not releasing these documents, it at least appears at this point that they are trying to withhold some of this information to protect themselves, and that in itself is a problem. Okay. Kimberly atkins, i appreciate you very much joining me earlier than scheduled. Were going to talk about adam schiffs closing arguments together in a few minutes. Lets go here now, though. The house now heading towards the next phase of the impeachment inquiry as the public portion of the Intelligence Committees investigation appears to have wrapped up. The house Judiciary Committee, which is responsible for drafting articles of impeachment that is now waiting for the probe to be handed over to them. Joining me now, california representative ted lieu, a democratic member of the Judiciary Committee. Always a pleasure to have you on, sir. Lets get right into this. Of everything that you heard in this weeks hearings, what was the most explosive and alarming to you . Thank you, alex, for your question. Let me first say that impeachment is one of the gravest powers of congress, second only to our power to declare war. It must always be our last option. Now, at the same time, the last two weeks, a lot of very damning evidence came out regarding the president of the United States. Ambassador sondlands testimony was particularly compelling. He identified the quid pro quo, basically, the bribery scheme between the Trump White House and Trump Administration and pressuring ukraine to launch two bogus investigations, and he was trumps person. He was a trump supporter. He donated 1 million to trumps inauguration. For him to come in and basically tell the truth like he did i thought was very damning for the president of the United States. Okay. Damning and compelling, two words you have just used, but im curious what has been proven in these hearings, what more needs to be proven to bring the republican colleagues to support impeaching this president , or has the argument that, yeah, what he did was wrong, but it just doesnt rise to the level of impeachment has that given them cover . So, what these two weeks of hearings showed is that not only do we have the call record that everybody can read, but it was a monthslong Pressure Campaign to get the ukrainians to launch two investigations, one into the dncs server, the other into the bidens, and that everybody was in the loop, according to ambassador sondland, and we had u. S. Diplomats essentially knowing what was happening. Some of them were trying to stop what was happening. Some were executing the white houses orders. But it was very clear that this Pressure Campaign was happening. The facts are not really in dispute. The only issue is are the republicans going to basically put country over party . How about what went through your mind when you heard Gordon Sondland say everyone was in the loop . And he named them. He did name names. And we have this new additional batch of documents, as you just reported, from american oversight, that further confirms what sondland said, that everybody knew what we were doing and why we were doing it, and these documents show that giuliani was not freelancing, that he was essentially talking to secretary pompeo. And if you look at the demands that trump made of the ukrainian leader, he asked for an investigation into the bidens as well as the dnc server. Giuliani didnt then go and say, hey, go and investigate amazon and Elizabeth Warren. The demands, these bribery demands were exactly the same. They were identical. Everybody was on the same page. Im sure you didnt miss this the president tweeting during the public hearings this week, writing in part, republicans, you are dealing with human scum who have taken due process and all of the republican partys rights away from us during the most unfair hearings in american history. That is the president of the United States, sir, referring to House Democrats as human scum. What goes through your mind when you read a tweet like that . First is that the children are watching. This is not acceptable behavior for any elected official, especially the president of the United States. And it also shows that the president doesnt have much defense. Hes basically trying to trash witnesses. Hes trying to attack democrats. Hes trying to attack the process. But not even his strongest defenders really are trying to defend his actual misconduct. They keep talking about the process and about other unrelated items, such as, for example, the steele dossier. Im not sure why devin nunes keeps bringing that up. But the actual misconduct of the president , very few republicans are trying to defend what he did. Look, when you talk about him attacking democrats, do you think hes also signaling to any republicans who might dare to challenge him . I mean, in a form of intimidation . You come after me . This is the kind of language im going to use, and im going to hurt your chances for reelection. Are they intimidated by him . They absolutely are, and hes not just doing that to republicans. He was in real time intimidating ambassador Marie Yovanovitch while she was testifying. And so, this has simply been the modus operandi of this president. He previously intimidated Michael Cohen by threatening action against his fatherinlaw, and the behavior of this president s simply unacceptable. I do note that not all republicans think the same. So, republicans who are not elected members of the congress, they have very different views. So, peggy noonan, the former speechwriter to president reagan, wrote an op ed, basically saying the president and his enablers really have no defense for his conduct. Judiciary, your committee, expected to hold its own public hearings. When might that happen, and what can we expect . Will there be any other witnesses . No decisions have been made as to whether or not we go down the road to formal impeachment. Whats going to happen is the Intelligence Committee will write a report. Other committees of jurisdiction, such as Foreign Affairs and oversight, could also do a report. They will send them to Judiciary Committee and then in consultation with their caucus and Speaker Pelosi will make a decision as to where we go from there. At the same time, the house is also legislating. We passed over 275 bipartisan bills to the u. S. Senate. We are working on a very significant bill to reduce drug costs. Were going to continue to work on behalf of the American People. How about witnesses . Are there witnesses that you would like to have in front of your committee . I would love if ambassador bolton chooses to come and testify, like many of other folks in the state department, instead of trying to sell his book. I think there is a lot of information you know, he has hes intimated, or hes you cant quite tell what he means by the communiques that hes given in the last 24 hours. Do you think hes legit . Do you think hes going to want to testify . He certainly has information, i think, that will be relevant to this impeachment investigation. I hope he acts as a patriotic american, as Many State Department officials have, and come and testify before congress. Yeah, well, we should say that his tweet said, stay tuned. So i guess were staying tuned. Ted lieu, sir, its always an honor to talk with you. Thank you so much, and well look forward to speaking with you again. Thank you. Thank you, alex. Lets bring in the former counsel to the Judiciary Committee during the impeachment trial of president nixon, michael conway. Michael, welcome to you, sir. Lets get to the next steps in this impeachment inquiry. Thank you, alex. Theyre now shifting to the Judiciary Committee, the committee that will ultimately draft and vote on articles of impeachment before sending them to the house floor. Given what youve heard, what is the scope of these articles . How many might there be . Well, i think watergate offers us a good template for that. At that time, there were three articles of impeachment, that were approved, two articles of impeachment voted down by the Judiciary Committee. Those that were approved really have the same application today. One was an abuse of power article. And the abuse of power covered a number of things the president did. Hear youve just talked about intimidating witnesses, but the obstruction issues that came through the Mueller Report would fit under that category, and others. There obviously will be an article about bribery in ukraine or extortion, however its phrased. Obviously, briberys in the constitution. And the third one, and one thats very important, is in 1974, an article was passed that said the president had obstructed congress and interfered with the impeachment prerogative. The constitution says the house has the sole power of impeachment. The word sole power only appears in the constitution there, and that the senate has the sole power to try it. And they said that this was a frustrating the congressional prerogative . Thats exactly what President Trumps done here. He did worse than nixon. Nixon at least had some of his witnesses testify, not some of them lie. And he didnt produce the tapes until the Supreme Court said he had to. But here, President Trump has told not only current employees, but former employees like ambassador bolton that they werent supposed to testify, or don mcgahn. Im going to get to something more, the comparison between nixon and trump at this point and which one was worse. Sure. But with regard to enough evidence now to impeach the president , is it there . And strategically speaking, is it better to have more articles of impeachment . In other words, throw as much as you can out there to see what sticks . Or is it better to put fewer out there that are more focused . Im going to take a center lane on that, alex. I think you should have more than one. I dont think the ukraine even though the evidence is very powerful the ukraine episode itself. Youre going to get an argument back, are you going to impeach the president over one telephone call or when you dont have details from his inner circle . In order, throwing everything against the wall doesnt make sense. A trial lawyer will say, if you have one argument, you make it. If you dont have one good argument, you make ten arguments. I think thats what republicans would say to this. The other thing is, it allows the members to balance what they think is an impeachable defense. Thats one of the republican arguments. You might have members, democrats and even possibly republicans, that say im not going to impeach the president over this or that, but i am over the ukraine incident or i am over obstruction. And a key point on thats going to be, were expecting a ruling monday from the federal judge as to whether don mcgahn has to obey the house Judiciary Committees subpoena. And if he comes and testifies, then that really opens, again, the Mueller Report, which has taken a back burner the last two weeks. May i ask specifically, is there a category for impeachment to just be sort of a giant umbrella, abuse of power . Yeah could that be something . And would that be, as i said, an umbrella impeachment article . Absolutely. And it really fits very much into the concept the framers had, which was, we dont want the executive really abusing the power of office for personal gain. In the nixon situation, there was an abuse of power. As a matter of fact, it got the most votes. Eight republicans im sorry, seven republicans on the committee out of 17 voted for the abuse of power. It covered the fact that Richard Nixon tried to get the irs to audit his political enemies, that he wiretapped journalists and other officials, that he set up the plumbers unit, which was an extra legal unit in the white house that burglarized, and as well as the obstruction of watergate. And that actually garnered the most votes. Theres an interesting historical precedent. Just one moment. There was a federal judge who was impeached in the 1930s. There were seven articles of impeachment, six specific acts and one overall umbrella argument. The senate acquitted him on the first six and removed him from office on the seventh. Hmm. And it only takes one, right . Thats the way it is. All right, michael conway, thank you so much. Thats the way it is. Youre more than welcome. A new report about President Trump turning camp david into an impeachment perk for members of congress. Also, democrats grading the impeachment hearings. Youre going to hear the early takeaways. And were going to talk about this headline the trumpification of Elise Stefanik. Why this matters, ahead. E f Elis Stefanik why this matters, ahead. Ive always loved seeing whats next. And im still going for my best, even though i live with a higher risk of stroke due to afib not caused by a heart valve problem. So if theres a better treatment than warfarin, ill go for that. Eliquis. Eliquis is proven to reduce stroke risk better than warfarin. Plus has significantly less major bleeding than warfarin. Eliquis is fdaapproved and has both. Whats next . 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Awarded the best professionally installed system by cnet. Simple. Easy. Awesome. Call, click or visit a store today. We are back with this breaking news at 18 past the hour. The Vice President is now in iraq for an unannounced thanksgiving trip, just as congress escalates its impeachment inquiry. He went to erbil for a meeting with the kurdish president for reassurance after the withdrawal from syria. Before that, pence landed at Al Assad Air Force base, where he served turkey to the u. S. Troops and indirectly addressed the administrations impeachment crisis. Congress should have finished their work on defense appropriations months ago, but you all know that partisan politics and investigations have slowed things down a bit in washington, d. C. Also new today, the Washington Post reporting the president has opened up camp david as an adult playground of sorts, according to that headline, to woo gop lawmakers during impeachment. Nbcs hans nichols is at the white house with more on that. Okay, lets figure out what this is. What is the adult playground at camp david all about . Reporter well, the white house is inviting lawmakers they are clearly going to need either for direct political reasons like impeachment or just longer strategies that the white house and the president has for policy purposes. Theyre going to need republican support. What you see is the office of legislative affairs and mick mulvaney, a former member of congress, inviting republican lawmakers to camp david, including spouses, for a little r r. There is some conversation, sometimes the president will call in, but its a way to keep the republican allies close to, at least in this case, the chief of staff. Now, there are a couple interesting aspects to this story. Number one, the president doesnt go himself. Now, its been reported that the president isnt overly found of camp david. Its rustic. There are separate cabins, some restrictions of cell phone use because its basically treated as a classified scif. But whats interesting is the president s just calling in. So its not as though hes really wining and dining and being full part of this. But to me, alex we talked about this earlier there are a whole lot of things that the white house has, goodie bags, they can hand out as favors, whether thats a round of golf with the president , inviting people over to white house movies or to watch a sporting event. The president has done some of that. Other president s have done some of that. Its always interesting to me to see how different president s spend this sort of political coin in different ways. Remember, bill clinton was big on inviting lawmakers out on the golf course. President barack obama loved golf, didnt love golfing with members of congress. President trump taking a lot of people to sporting events, always putting people not always, but frequently bringing members of congress down on the plane to wherever hes going so they can go back and say, look, we flew on air force one. There are, through, clear limits, i think, within the washington ecosystem of going too far, and well see to what extent this reporting about camp david actually if anyone does say it goes too far. Alex . Okay, hans nichols at the white house. Thank you for that debrief on all that. Lets go back now to the latest on impeachment inquiry. House democrats are moving closer to impeaching the president , following the twoweek marathon of public testimonies. In a closing statement on thursday, congressman adam schiff delivered a stern message to republicans. The difference between then and now is not the difference between nixon and trump, its the difference between that congress and this one. And so, we are asking, where is howard baker . Where is howard baker . Where are the people who are willing to go beyond their party, to look to their duty. Kimberly atkins is back with us, steph kite also, reporter with axios, also with us. Ladies, with a welcome. Body language. That was great watching that. Did you see that . Devin nunes wouldnt even look up. You had the house lawyer there for the republicans sort of looking down and jim jordan just looking anywhere but over at adam schiff. Give me your assessment, kimberly, of the message of adam schiff throughout the hearings. And do you think its resonating . Yeah, the message of chairman schiff and all other democrats that i speak to on the house has been very unified, that this is about an abuse of power, this is about a president who stepped beyond his bounds, and that it is not only the right of members of congress, that it is the duty of members of congress to serve as a check upon them. One thing that these hearings have done is unite the democrats. You havent heard for quite some time about all of the differences between the democrats that we talked about at the beginning of the year. Thats really gone, and theyre united. And there are also some democratic lawmakers who have expressed disappointment and sometimes anger over their republican counterpart for not seeing this as a constitutional duty and for their almost equally uniform defense of the president , and it seems unlikely at this point that theyve won over a single republican to this cause. Steph, weigh in on this. What do you think the weeks testimonies amount to for republicans and democrats . I think weve seen, as was pointed out, democrats and republicans both u nighted when it comes to impeachment. We have seen democrats unite and present the facts and a strong narrative, everything that many of us were watching for to see if democrats really could create this narrative and push this narrative towards impeachment. But also, we have seen republicans really be unwavering in their support for the president , despite witness after witness coming become the Intelligence Committee and corroborating lots of these stories that weve been hearing that is telling their concerns with the way that the administration was approaching ukraine. Still, republicans, even more moderate republicans, are still saying that they would vote no on impeachment. Theyre not showing any signs of cracking as of right now. And it really points to the partisanship weve seen and also the loyalty that President Trump demands from republicans and also that theres really no political incentive for anyone to break from their party on this. And so, well have to see whether there is anything more that comes out, whether someone like john bolton ends upcoming forward and testifying and whether that changes anything. But so far, there really has been very little change when it comes to republicans stance toward impeachment. Yeah. Kimberly, i know that youve written about the democrats reactions following the hearings. What all did they hope to accomplish going into these testimonies . And did they do it . Yeah, what they wanted was a clear narrative being made, not just to congress, but to members of the public. If you recall with the mueller investigation, a lot of times, the democrats told me that they were frustrated at different inflection points, that congress didnt move swiftly enough to really explain this story to the public and to galvanize that support. Its been very different with the investigation into this ukrainian matter. Support has shifted. Weve seen in polls people who at the very least wanted this probe to go forward, if not also wanting the president to be removed over this. Theyre hoping that over the break that that case has been made, that the American People will ponder this, and that the support for moving forward will be Even Stronger to put additional pressure on at least some republicans, perhaps those in moderate states, perhaps those that have been willing to speak out publicly against President Trump, people like mitt romney it might be able to move the lever with them and get some movement there. But you know, as weve been saying, so far, its really divided by party lines, and its pretty locked in. Yeah. And stef, kimberly does write that there is some concern that americans may be a bit more overloaded than informed over this. What about republican sentiment . Is there a sense that their frenzied countermessaging has been effective . Well, i think if you look at the polls, there has been very little change so far with the American Publics view of impeachment. Its about split down the middle with some shifting towards impeachment and then kind of away from impeachment. Weve seen some recent polls showing that independents have actually moved away from supporting impeachment. And i think for a lot of republicans, theyre not seeing the dramatic shift that they would need to see in favor of impeachment for any of them to be willing to back it. Its a big, risky political move, and i think they are watching the polls, they are watching public sentiment. And so far, they havent seen that dramatic shift that would incentivize them to get behind impeachment at this point. All right, Kimberly Atkins and stef kight, thank you so much. The moment a member of congress stepped in to help senator Elizabeth Warren on the campaign trail. Elizabeth Warren Campaign trail as a struggling actor, i need all the breaks that i can get. At liberty butchumal cut. Liberty biberty cut. Well dub it. 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Do you see how much there is highlighted everywhere . They are amazing. They are so good with your takeaways from these hearings. Thank you. I want to look at your latest piece, which looks at the president s approach to releasing emails, in which you write, donald trump successfully made the state departments and Hillary Clintons failure to turn over all emails demanded by congress a centerpiece of his 2016 campaign. And now, how Many State Department emails has the Trump Administration released as required by congressional subpoena . Hold on, let me tally it up. Zero. How significant is the white houses stonewalling . And is it utterly hypocritical . Well, its certainly utterly hypocritical. We dont know how significant it is because we dont know what would be in those documents, but we do know so, take for example, the benghazi hearings, which were not an impeachment proceeding. 125,000 documents turned over. Now, admittedly, democrats didnt want to turn all those over, but they did, whether either voluntary or through compulsion, they did turn those over. So, i think what youre seeing, those few documents that are out right now are not have not been given to congress. Those are out because a private group had sued under the foia laws. So, thats one way to get it, but thats not the way to get the bulk of them. So, when you look back to all of the investigations the republicans did over the years the solyndra, the irs, targeting, the fast and furious gunrunning, on and on and on, received hundreds of pages of documents and thats how you find out whats going on. They may be able to get away with this, if the courts dont rule in time for these impeachment proceedings, but do you know what that means . What administration is ever going turn over a single document to any congress in the future . Right, republican or democratic, right . I mean, it goes both ways. So, you also write about the republicans and their approach to this weeks hearings, in which you write, at its core, President Trumps defense in these impeachment proceedings is not a dispute over the facts of the case, the credibility of the witnesses, or the motives of democrats. It is a bid to discredit the truth itself ive got to say, that sent chills down my spine. Explain what you mean here. Well, of course, it is about all of those other things i mentioned as well, but i was writing about the hearing this week in which you had fiona hill trying to say, hey, look, guys, stop this nonsense of letting russia off the hook and trying to blame ukraine for interfering in our 2016 elections. That is Vladimir Putins talking point spread by the Russian Security service. Youre essentially doing russias bidding by doing that. And thats what i mean by sort of taking aim at truth itself. In order to say that what President Trump did is reasonable, because he was pursuing an investigation into that Conspiracy Theory, in order to say what hes doing was reasonable, you essentially have to say that that Conspiracy Theory was valid. So, you have people like devin nunes, the Top Republican on the Intelligence Committee, making this case. He says, on the one hand, it was a russia hoax, and then he suggests there are all kinds of legitimate reasons to think that ukraine, in fact, was the one interfering in the election, which is just false. So, thats why its not so much about the nitty gritty of who did what when, its really are we going to accept russian propaganda, or are we going to accept the facts as established by our own Intelligence Committee . Given everything youve witnessed and written, what do you think the chances are any republicans will turn on the president and vote to impeach him . I think if there were a number less than zero, i would go with that. And i think the reason is, you know, you and i are looking at whats being said there. However, if you and i were not listening to whats being said there and instead were listening to sean hannity saying, it could not have gone better the president s entirely off the hook well, youd have a different view. So, unfortunately in this siloed media environment, youve got 35 , 40 of the country, the vast majority of republicans, not getting a bit of news out of these hearings. So, i do not see republicans even you saw even congressman hurd, a moderate, just not moving in that direction. Yeah. It doesnt seem to matter what they come up with. All right, well, dana milbank, keep up the good work. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Coming up next, the battle between joe biden and Elizabeth Warren for a Coveted Group of voters who could be the deciding vote for the democrats. E the deg vote for theem docrats burke at farmers insurance, we know a thing or two because weve seen a thing or two. 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As part of her effort to court the black vote, warren was at Clark Atlanta university on thursday, this to make a speech on the legacy of africanamerican women involved in the 1881 washa womens strike, but things did not go exactly as planned. Lets watch this. As a white woman, i will never fully understand the discrimination, the pain, the harm that black americans have experienced just because of the color of their skin. [ crowd chanting ] we are grateful for your activism and your voice, and you are welcome here, but when these women have been ignored this long, this is their moment, and we are going to hear the stories. Well, joining me now, ben jealous, former president and ceo of the naacp and also former candidate for governor of maryland. Also, amy alison. Amy is the founder of she the people. With a welcome to you both, ladies first here, given what were talking about. Amy, what really is going on here . How do you interpret the way that it played out for Elizabeth Warren. Elizabeth warren has made no bones about it through her policies, and really surrounding herself with trusted ambassadors, is making inroads amongst black women as the core of the black vote. That Atlanta Clark event was amazing, because although it wasnt widely reported, a network of a couple of hundred, mostly millennial organizers and activists called black women for, endorsed Elizabeth Warren just a few days ago and pulled together a very raucous, enthusiastic group. The thing is, that because she has a trusted ambassador, the very well respected congresswoman ayanna pressley, to both center the event on the stories of black women and to honor both the protesters and the people in the room, she was able to Elizabeth Warren was able to as a white candidate go through that process, show her respect and make inroads. I think it was a very powerful moment. So, ben, do you see this as being a symptom of a larger challenge in general for white candidates trying to connect with black voters . And im just going to say, im not looking at black voters as being some monolithic group, of course, but is there a key in your mind that you think needs to be addressed . I think its actually bigger than that. We are a country that was born of revolution. And how you handle protesters is key. If you go back to 2016, mrs. Clinton was confronted by a black protester, a young, black woman. She did not handle it well, and it haunted her campaign. And you see here with ms. Warren, whos confronted with a very raucous crowd of black protesters, she handles it very well, all things considered. And it wasnt just ms. Presley there. It was everything about how even ms. Warrens face, how she handled it. These are populist times in our country and in our party. And every candidate has to be prepared to deal with protesters with respect and with an open heart. And people see your heart right away. And i thought it was a good moment for warren. Okay. Can you give an explanation, ben, as to joe bidens popularity, why its as high as it is . Its name recognition. You know, hes been out there for a long time, before obama. He stumbled with obama. And then obama embraced him and he came back and was obamas, you know, greatest bulldog, quite frankly, for eight years in the white house. When youre this early in the Campaign Cycle and were still early. I know weve been talking about it for a long time, but its still early. Right. People are just getting to know all of the other candidates. But you know, if obama was mom, then joe biden was apple pie for eight years. So, people know apple pie and they like apple pie, but i think theyre going to see all of the other candidates and theyre going to realize again, whether its warren, whether its bernie i mean, the fact that bernie is second in that poll is a big deal that there are candidates out there, whether its booker, whether its harris, who either come from the black community or are speaking to the issues that are most important right now to them. To amys point, Kamala Harris has got to get credit for raising this issue at the debate on wednesday. In one exchange, she took on Pete Buttigieg, who is struggling with black voters, and she said many candidates show up in black churches only when they want votes, even though black women were credited with delivering democrats big victories in alabama and in the 2018 midterms. Lets take a watch at this. At some point, folks get tired of just saying, oh, you know, thank me for showing up and say, well, show up for me, because when black women when black women are three to four times more likely to die in connection with childbirth in america, when the sons of black women will die because of gun violence more than any other cause of death, when black women make 61 cents on the dollar as compared to all women who tragically make 80 cents on the dollar, the question has to be, where have you been and what are you going to do . And do you understand who the people are . My response is i completely agree. And i welcome the challenge of connecting with black voters in america who dont yet know me. Whats your reaction to that exchange, amy . Well, i was there in the debate hall in atlanta, and i can tell you myself as a black woman and the black women who were there recognize that Kamala Harris is leaning deeply into and speaking to the base. Im going to say that thats the way shes going to gain momentum, and she calls into view something that most of us recognize, which is that black women have been taken for granted by the party and candidates. And there were candidates on stage that have to be accountable. If you think about it, a candidate who fails to resonate with black voters, particularly black women, will not win the primary and wont win the white house, because black voters are one of four democrats and such an important center of a coalition that they need in order to be victorious at the polls. I think what Kamala Harris is doing is like she did in the miami debate, the first debate, leaning deeply into and identifying and speaking to black women, and she got a bump in the polls that first debate. And i believe that thats going to fuel a momentum. You know, the question is, is it in enough time . I think, ben, youre right, weve got about 100 days until voters begin voting. But buttigieg has something very serious going on with his campaign. If we look at the latest polls in South Carolina, he has yet to resonate with black voters. There just isnt a path to victory. Exactly. I was waiting for Pete Buttigieg to build trust on that National Stage and continue to voice his connection and concern, maybe even lift up the names of black folks on the transdam remembers, he keeps missing out on that and as a result is not Building Trust in the country. And there is a popular south bend activist who just endorsed joe biden. Thank you very much. I look forward to seeing you both again soon. Who is benefiting from washingtons impeachment fight . This guy. How republicans might be playing right into Vladimir Putins hands. Thats next. Ladimir putins hands. Thats next. Its tough to quit smoking cold turkey. So chantix can help you quit slow turkey. Along with support, chantix is proven to help you quit. 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Are you sure they gave it to ukraine . Well, thats what the word is, and thats what i asked actually in my phone call. This is a fictional narrative being perpetrated and propagated by the Russian Security services themselves. President trumps alternative narrative contradicted by one of the witnesses who appeared at this weeks public hearings, and its not the only instance during this probe. But just what exactly does all the testimony mean for the gops defense . Joining me now, msnbc political analyst zerlina maxwell, former director of progressive media for the clinton campaign, and msnbc contributor Charlie Sykes, editor at large of the bull work. Welcome to both of you. Hey, alex. Zerlina, you first here. Look, the president is still pushing this debunked Conspiracy Theory on ukraine and the 2016 election. How long can he keep doing this . And do democrats need to push back harder on republicans who are echoing this narrative . I mean, because we rarely hear accusations of lying, as if thats too strong or something. Right, and we really should call out these lies for what they are, which are putin propaganda. And i think the republicans have a choice right now. They can either be accomplices to donald trump and his merry band of criminals selling out america to cheat in the next election, or they can stand up and be patriots. I think the question is actually a simple one, because the facts are not in dispute, and it is so alarming as an american citizen to hear from the expert on Vladimir Putin under oath saying that republicans in realtime are repeating putin propaganda on television during what should be a sober and serious moment as we investigate whether or not the president abused his power. And the republicans have to go to bed at night thinking about whether or not they want to be accomplices to this crime or whether or not they want to stand up and abide by their oath and be patriots. You know, charlie, Vladimir Putin himself was this week boasting. No ones accusing russia of interfering in the u. S. Elections anymore, saying theyre accusing ukraine. So, are republicans just simply playing into russias hands again ahead of 2020 . Oh, well, absolutely. And i dont think this could be stressed to strongly. Most of the attention i think has legitimately been placed on President Trumps efforts to extort the ukrainians to dig up dirt on joe biden, but also, think about the consequences of the fact that the president of the United States and people like devin nunes are willing dupes to Vladimir Putins propaganda, his misinformation campaign. That not only sells out the country, it makes us vulnerable to something that is ongoing. Look, Vladimir Putins return on investment in his interference in the 2016 election is extraordinary. And now that he has the president of the United States pushing these crazy debunked, discredited conspiracy theories to let him off the hook is probably beyond his wildest dreams. But again, we are going into an election in which the russians will continue to attack the electoral process. And what donald trump and devin nunes are doing as a willing accomplice, as zerlina says, to all of this, is to weaken and make it less likely that we are going to have this government defend the integrity of the election process, and that is an extraordinary story, and republicans really need to look themselves in the mirror. Theyve gone beyond defenders and enablers to actively aiding and abetting what we now know is this russian misinformation campaign. But look, as donald trump keeps pushing these false narratives look, the Washington Post points this out. Trump is making it tougher for his gop impeachment defenders. Lets listen to some of the key contradictions here. This guy, sobbedlandland, he really the european ambassador, then all of a sudden hes working on this. I worked with mr. Rudy giuliani on ukraine matters at the express direction of the president of the United States. The ambassador, the woman, she wouldnt even put up shes an obama person i joined the Foreign Service during the Reagan Administration and subsequently served three other republican president s. And i will tell you this about joe biden, i never said it specifically on him you heard the president of the United States ask the president of ukraine to investigate the bidens, is that correct . Yes, sir, he made a request. And he did so time after time. And by the way, that womans name is ambassador Marie Yovanovitch. But zerlina, have you seen any erosion of the gop defenses as these hearings are going on . And if so, can you describe what youre seeing . I think weve eliminated most of their defenses. And now were at, yes, we did it, but is that worth impeaching and removing the president . Essentially, theyre copping to the fact that he did the conduct that is alleged. He did try to extort ukraine in order to cheat in the election. He did that. Theyre not even defending that point. Theyre just saying, its not bad enough to impeach and remove the president , even though bribery, and certainly, high crimes and misdemeanors, and the understanding that abusing your office and using official acts and funding that was approved by congress in order to get dirt on your political opponent i mean, if the founders what were they talking about if they werent talking about this exact scenario . And so, i just i want to say that after Robert Muellers investigation, the American People understood that you cant ask a foreign country to interfere in the election. And the day after that, donald trump went and tried to do it again. And if our elections are not going to be fair , we dont liv in a democratic society. Im curious, charlie, real quick. When the president says, hey, they should never impeach, but i want a trial, what does he mean . Well, i think he is looking to see whether or not he can muddy up the waters even more by going in with his very, very aggressive, i did nothing wrong, its the other guy that has committed all these crimes. But i think theres high risk for him in doing that, because as zerlina points out, it is an intellectually defensible position, i suppose, to say yes, i did it, but it doesnt rise to the level of impeachment and removal. But thats not what Donald Trumps defense will be. Hes going to try to say i did absolutely nothing wrong. So, she is really going to be testing republican willingness to go along with this. All right, guys. Look forward to seeing you both again. Charlie, zerlina, thank you. Its potentially new evidence, pretty explosive evidence, in fact, of the ukraine Pressure Campaign, but will it be used against the president . Plus, the witness the white house may fear most, a top Judiciary Committee member explains why, next. Explains why, next a wealth of information. A wealth of perspective. A wealth of opportunities. Thats the clarity you get from fidelity wealth management. Straightforward advice, tailored recommendations, taxefficient investing strategies, and a dedicated advisor to help you grow and protect your wealth. Fidelity wealth management. Thouwhich is Breast Cancer metastthat has spreadcer,. To other parts of the body, are living in the moment and taking ibrance. Ibrance with an aromatase inhibitor is for postmenopausal women or for men with hr her2 metastatic Breast Cancer, as the first hormonal based therapy. Ibrance plus letrozole significantly delayed disease progression versus letrozole, and shrank tumors in over half of patients. 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I was so effective that i discovered a pattern of corruption that the Washington Press has been covering up for three or four years. We are now going to go over all the latest developments on the impeachment inquiry and on the battle for the white house with our team of reporters and analysts, and we start with nbc White House Correspondent kelly odonnell. Kelly, happy saturday to you. I know that giuliani was there once again, signaling something in that interview. Theres probably a little more room for interpretation, but what more did he say . Reporter well, good to be with you, alex. Rudy giuliani as the president s personal lawyer has been a key figure, and this is an opportunity to hear from him after a couple of weeks of public hearings in the impeachment inquiry, where ja giulianis name has been invoked time and time again, in particular by the former ambassador to ukraine, marie jovan vich, who talked about giuliani leading a Smear Campaign, to dr. Fiona hill, who had been the russia expert inside the white house and a longtime Intelligence Community expert on russia and europe, talking about how giuliani and other officials like Gordon Sondland were involved in a separate track of trying to get information about what role, if any, ukraine played in the 2016 election, information that she says is simply the product of russian propaganda. So, Rudy Giulianis been in the mix of all of this quite a bit. And now new documents coming out of the state department, the result of an Advocacy Group suing for access, show that giuliani was reaching out personally to secretary of state mike pompeo. Now, over time, giuliani has talked about that publicly, that he was seeking help from pompeo to share some of the information that he says he gathered about these issues, and that is important because, of course, the secretary of states one of the highest figures in the government, and there have been squeeze about what did he know, how much was he involved, and pompeo has been reluctant to let witnesses testify and has locked down documents, keeping them from congress, even though theyve been requested through subpoena. So, heres a bit more of what giuliani had to say in his interview in the last few minutes about his role in all of this. Have you talked to President Trump in the last week or two . Have you met with him . Are you still his counsel . I do not discuss speaking with my client. You can count on that i talk to him often and comments that are totally insulting. Ive heard things written like hes going to throw me under the bus. When they say that, i say he isnt, but i have insurance. Ridiculous we are very good friends. He knows what i did was in order to defend him, not to dig up dirt on biden. Reporter and so, mayor giuliani is, of course, talking about his ongoing relationship with the president. We have at times asked the president if giuliani is still his lawyer, and he has acknowledged that is the case. Part of the reason that question comes up are the reports that giuliani is himself involved in an investigation, the subject of an investigation with the Southern District of new york dealing with some of his interactions that relate to an aspect of this and a couple of his associates have been indicted on Campaign Finance violations, again, related to all of this. There are many tentacles in all of this, and much of it includes Rudy Giuliani in some form or fashion, because of his proximity to the president and because of his sort of separate Foreign Policy work that he was carrying out without being an employee of the government. Alex . Yeah, proximity when he says he carries out with the president early and often. Kelly odonnell, thank you for that. I want to bring in john harwood, cnbcs editor at large. John, youre here to talk about a couple of things, but can you comment on Rudy Giulianis claim that he has insurance . What does he mean by that . I have no idea what hes talking about, but Rudy Giuliani, when he says the president s not going to throw him under the bus, it might work out that way, but it is plain that this president will throw anyone under the bus who harms his own interests or who he thinks harms his own interests. And i can tell you from talking to republican members of congress and aides, after the hearings, they are prepared to throw Rudy Giuliani under the bus, because for the reasons that you were discussing with zerlina and Charlie Sykes before, theyve acknowledged or they have no defense for the facts of what happened. The question is whos responsible for it . And some of those republican members want to ascribe that responsibility to giuliani more than the president. We just heard in the fox interview the president in effect throwing sondland under the bus, saying, well, all of a sudden he got involved in ukraine and i dont know him that well and that sort of thing. So, i think in addition to the legal jeopardy, which relates to whether Rudy Giuliani was pursuing financial gain intermingled with his efforts on behalf of trump, that is financial gain in ukraine, he is political politically highly vulnerable to either republicans in congress or the president or both. Okay. So, i know you cant comment on what the insurance is, but lets talk about the tenor of the messaging of making a Statement Like that. Who and what is Rudy Giuliani signaling . Well, i imagine he is signaling that i have receipts, too, like my insurance is that i can demonstrate that i was working on behalf of the president , rather than acting on behalf of myself. So, another big headline to get to this hour, and that is the house, which is certainly heading towards the next phase of the impeachment inquiry as the public portion of the Intelligence Committees investigation appears to have wrapped up. The house Judiciary Committee, which is responsible for drafting articles of impeachment, is now waiting for that probe to be handed to them. Democratic Committee Member ted lieu told me last hour, a key witness he still wants to hear from as the process moves forward. I would love if ambassador bolton chooses to come and testify, like many of other folks in the state department, instead of trying to sell his book. He certainly has information that i think would be relevant to this impeachment investigation. I hope he acts as a patriotic american, as Many State Department officials have, and come and testify before congress. Joining me now, britney shepard, National Political correspondent at yahoo news. I welcome you to the conversation. One more question for john, before i get to you. What do you think is expected once the Judiciary Committee begins the process toward drawing up impeachment articles . Theyre going to draw up articles. Theyre going to pass them out of the committee, and the house is going to pass them and send them over to the senate, prepare for a senate trial. I think there are a couple of loose ends that they may still try to tie up. Well see whether theres any reason to expect john bolton to come forward. Hes indicated hes not going to unless a Court Directs him to, and the democrats in the congress are not going to wait for that to happen. John bolton is a lot more political than the people serving under him, who testified and described his reaction to these events. So, i dont know how much he would willingly add to that. He is obviously, as ted lieu, the congressman, is indicating is teasing his book. But i think theyre going full speed ahead and i would expect a vote before the end of the year on those impeachment articles on the house of the floor. Do we, britney, know the scope of the articles of impeachment, whether its limited to just the ukraine affair, or do you think it might include muellers findings and beyond . Well, alex, were actually not entirely sure what the broad scope of these impeachment inquiries could be. I mean, there is definitely a prevailing message from the democrats that the ukraine scandal will be something thats easy to sell to voters on the trail and to americans so they can push the Approval Ratings from half and half to, hopefully for them, 60 , 70 , et cetera. However, there is a big ruling happening this monday that could force the white house, don mcgahn, who used to be an attorney for the president and the white house to appear in front of congress, and that would be crucial in seeing kind of the folks who trump has previously thrown under the bus, to begin to speak, and of course, include the Mueller Report and a possible obstruction of justice into that impeachment inquiry. So, its very fluid and its moving, and its kind of hard to sell certain narratives to the American Public. And i think right now democrats are scrambling to figure out what is the most clear. Right. Well, we have the president his approach to all this is just deny and attack. Lets listen. Heres an example. These were their witnesses. This was the best theyve got. Adam schiff is a sick puppy. Look, the ambassador, the woman, she wouldnt even put up shes an obama person, you know, but i said, why are you being so kind . Well, sir, shes a woman. We have to be nice. Shes very tough. I heard bad things. All of those witnesses, theyre all shifty shifts. Dont forget, there was no due process. You couldnt have lawyers. We couldnt have any witnesses. Right. We want to call the whistleblower. But you know what i want as the first witness, because frankly, i want to try number one, this should never be an impeachment. This is not an impeachment. That phone call was totally appropriate. I dont know where we begin trying to dissect that statement. But how long, brittany, can the president keep up this kind of defense in the face of so many people corroborating one anothers story . Well, i cant read whats in the president s mind, but if the past is any indication, i believe the president will be beating this drum to the last day of his presidency, whenever that will be. I mean, he is steadfast in his belief that he did nothing wrong. If you remember that photograph of his notes just from a couple days ago, said he asked for no quid pro quo with ukraine. Like, hes sticking to his own talking points, whether or not the people around him will continue to say that message is a whole other question entirely. Yeah, absolutely. Last word to you, john. How long can he keep this up . I think he can keep it up as long as hes drawing breath. Look, i think the point is that its not just deny and attack, it is confess, deny and attack. He did what he was accused of doing, he just says it wasnt wrong. Were going to keep hearing that from him. Okay, john, brittany, thank you. Good to see you guys. We have more breaking news as Vice President mike pence is indirectly addressing the impeachment inquiry today during an unannounced visit with iraq. He met with the president of Iraqi Kurdistan and served a thanksgiving meal to troops on the al Assad Air Base where he indirectly addressed the impeachment crisis while updating troops on pay raise. Congress should have finished their work on defense appropriations months ago, but you all know that partisan politics and endless investigations have slowed things down a bit in washington, d. C. All this in the week that Jennifer Williams russia adviser testified that the president s ukraine phone call was inappropriate and unusual. Joining us now, white house director of Global Engagement in the obama administration. With a welcome to you, i know that you know Jennifer Williams and youve communicated with her this past week. So, give me a sense how close she is to Vice President pence. Well, lets also start from the standpoint she was selected, personally selected for the job. So, she is someone who comes with a requisite experience, was prior to serving in the Vice President s office, was spokesperson to the ambassador to the uk. So, she is someone who has the responsibility of keeping the Vice President in the loop on europe when he is traveling, preparing him for those companies and accompanying him. And if i could also just say, i think weve really seen from jennifer and from the other state Department Officers in the last two weeks just how cool diplomats are. Not only that they keep their cool under pressure, but theyre really able to have this smart, searing intelligence and strength in the face of such extraordinary circumstances, and thats what they do every day around the world. Look, its my observation when people are telling the truth, its a lot easier to speak freely and clearly. But what is her sense of the hearings . Whats her takeaway . Well, i think both for jennifer as well as for the other state Department Officers, they didnt ask to go up to capitol hill, and its notable that none of them spoke out, despite their concerns throughout this process. Instead, they went to their superiors, they went to the legal adviser. They try to work through the system, and thats the way it should be, and it really undermines this argument that any of them have a political agenda, that theyre part of a deep state. Theyre deeply committed to the mission. And to that extent, brett, the president attacked jennifer in a tweet, calling her a never trumper. She responded in an exchange with connecticut congressman jim himes. Take a look at this. Ms. Williams, are you engaged in a president ial attack . No, sir. Ms. Williams, are you a never trumper . Im not sure i know an official definition of a never trumper would you describe yourself that way . I would not, no. Are you at all surprised by the way she testified herself and conducted herself during these hearings . No. I think she conducted herself honorably and represented the diplomatic core in the way that we would expect, showing that theyre not going to take partisan sides. One side or the other. And in all of these cases, whether it was ambassador taylor, ambassador yovanovitch, each of them tried to stick to the facts, not to go too far out on the ledge. Because remember, jennifer, Lieutenant Colonel vindman have to return to the white house, have to return to the National Security council, and continue to protect our country. And the challenge of these threats from the president , from republican members of congress, is that it makes it that much more difficult to defend our nation. Got to also wonder what Jennifer Williams is returning to in her position there in the Vice President s office. You have Gordon Sondland who said that he told pence that aid to ukraine appeared to be tied to the president s push for political investigations. Williams herself said her supervisor listened in on that ukraine call, knew all the details. But you have the House Committee which doesnt seem all that interested in mike pence. Where do you see the Vice President . What role does he have in all this . Well, you know, pence went out to iraq and served turkey to the troops today. What i think the real question is, wheres the beef . He has said silently smiling on the sidelines when his own adviser is under attack, when our nations National Security infrastructure is under attack. And you know, perhaps the role of the Vice President in prior administrations has been somewhat auxiliary, but it is now essential in the Trump Administration that we have a Vice President who is fulfilling the role of speaking truth to trump. He is the last line of defense, and i think he is sorely abdicating those duties. All right, breathe bruen, thank you for joining me. Come see me again. Thank you. Joe biden unloads on Lindsey Graham. The story behind this, next. On y graham the story behind this, next. Liberty mutual customizes your Car Insurance, so you only pay for what you need. I wish i could shake your hand. Granted. Only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Were oscar mayer deli fresh your very first sandwich,m. Your mammoth masterpiece. And. Whatever this was. Because we make our meat with the good of the deli and no artificial preservatives. Make every sandwich count with oscar mayer deli fresh. The best of pressure cooking and air frying now in one pot, and with tendercrisp technology, you can cook foods that are crispy on the outside and juicy on the inside. The ninja foodi Pressure Cooker, the Pressure Cooker that crisps. Im a regular in my neighborhood. Im a regular at my local coffee shop and my local barber shop. When you shop small you help support your community from after School Programs to the arts so become a regular, more regularly. Because for every dollar you spend at a Small Business, an average of 67 cents stays in the community. Join me and American Express on Small Business saturday, november 30th, and see how shopping small adds up. 2020 democratic president ial candidates spread out today. Bernie sanders talking at a town hall in franklin, New Hampshire. Elizabeth warren in New Hampshire kicking off her canvassing campaign. Amy klobuchar also in New Hampshire at a town hall in new london. And earlier, cory booker appearing at a town hall with a local labor union in concord, New Hampshire. Kamala harris is in washington, iowa. Thats where she met with voters. And joe biden attended a Community Event with his wife, jill, in des moines, while andrew yang officially opened his office in council bluffs, iowa. A lot of the other candidates also out today. You can see them there on your screen. But joining us from the campaign trail right now, nbcs ali vitali with Elizabeth Warren in New Hampshire and marianna sotomay sotomayor, following joe bidens team. Ladies, with a good morning to you both, ali, give me a sense of whats going on out there where you are. Reporter alex, you know things happen really fast out here on the campaign trail. Five minutes ago there was a s battalion of Elizabeth Warren volunteers here kicking off a day of canvassing. They were in the coffee shop behind me picking up their pamphlets and walk booklets and this is how the ground game happens in places like New Hampshire and iowa. When we talk about the campaigns with volunteers and staff on the ground, its things like this that were talking about, where the candidate came in this morning, gave a little bit of a speech to pep people up and sent them on their way. There were a few people going out with their scripts, going to go door knock, talk to voters and try to win people to Elizabeth Warrens cause. And i talked to one woman this morning who said she actually came down from massachusetts because she thought that it was important because New Hampshire is first in the nation. She wanted to be out here making sure that warrens message was reaching the people and that she was able to do her part to the get senator elected. Okay. Ali vitali, i thank you for that wrapup and also for having spoken to that woman. Lets move over to the Joe Biden Campaign in des moines. Thats where nbcs Marianna Sotomayor has been following that trail. So, tell me about his town hall today. Reporter so, joe biden actually made his 15th visit here in iowa just moments ago. He was in des moines, where he tried to cheer up a very actually animated crowd for him, one of his largest in the hawkeye state, with the new endorsement of former governor tom vilsack and his wife, christie. The Biden Campaign is hoping a big endorsement like that can actually propel iowans to caucus and have joe biden finish first here. Biden himself today even said, i know that with this endorsement, i will be able to not only win the nomination, but also win here in the state. But something that he argued and also his wife, dr. Jill biden, argued, is something that the campaign is also amplifying in recent weeks, which is that he is the most electable. And remember, if voters want to get progressive legislation done, they need someone who can beat donald trump first to be able to do that and also have the relationships in congress and internationally to be able to unite the country again. Just very quickly wanted to point out what a Campaign Aide said in terms of the slip in polls, especially here in iowa. They say, listen, voters here are still in the dating phase. They are dating these candidates, trying to flirt and see who could be the most interesting one. However, biden at the end of the day, when it comes to a marriage, is the one specific candidate who can actually get things done. All right. Cute analogy there. Marianna sotomayor and ali vitali, both of you, thank you so much. Brittany shepherd and john harwood have stuck around, because i want to ask you about a new interview in which joe biden lashed out at senator Lindsey Graham, who is launching the investigation into the bidens and briz ma. Take a listen to this. He knows me. He knows my son. He knows theres nothing to this. Trump is now essentially Holding Power over him that even the ukrainians wouldnt yield to. The ukrainians would not yield to, quote, investigate biden. Theres nothing to investigate about biden or his son. And lindsey is about to go down in a way that i think hes going to regret his whole life. Brittany, what do you make of his response there . Because theres always been a sense that those two men were friendly. Well, it certainly seems theyre not going to have thanksgiving dinner together. Yeah. I mean, its clear that their relationship has severed. For me, it feels beyond repair. Of course, i dont know the two personally. But association continued association with the president , especially as the president continues to put forward a theory that biden believes has been litigated and settled several times before, is irreparable for many of the people, and the republicans especially, in trumps personal circle. And i cant see a reality in which Lindsey Graham kind of bounces back from this as far as the personal politics and bipartisan politics with democrats and joe biden. Hey, john, i do want to play a quick sound bite here, and this is of a reaction from more of the 2020 contenders on the issue of impeachment. Heres that. Sadly, we have a president who is not only a pathological liar, he is likely the most corrupt president in the modern history of america. I learned something about these impeachment trials. I learned, number one, that donald trump doesnt want me to be the nominee. Thats pretty clear. We have to establish the principle no one is above the law. We have a constitutional responsibility, and we need to meet it. John, how much does impeachment play into everything come 2020 . Well, i think were going to see in the general election, assuming the president survives office, at the moment its kind of blotting out the democratic campaign. And i was talking yesterday to a democratic pollster who said thats a good thing, that is to say, instead of arguing about medicare for all and tax increases to pay for it and other, you know, wealth taxes and other proposals that are controversial, the focus is entirely on the president , his conduct, and his propose defenders. If the president s removed, obviously, that will turn the campaign upside down because democrats will be running against mike pence. I dont expect that to happen. But for now, you know, both sides are in hardened partisan camps. And as for what joe biden was saying about Lindsey Graham, its obviously true. Lindsey graham has made plain that his words dont mean any more than Donald Trumps do. He was incredibly harsh on donald trump before donald trump was elected president. Now hes completely subservient to trump. He talked about joe biden god has never made somebody as good a person as joe biden. So flattering, mmhmm. In 20152016. Now hes launching this investigation. His behavior is not flattering to the idea that he has any principles. Okay. John harwood and brittany shepherd. Now you guys are out of the hot seat. Thank you very much for sticking around. Coming up next, damage assessment. Determining the most damaging impeachment witness testimony to the president , but will it really matter . President , but wit reallyat mter . Frustrated that clean clothes you want to wear always seem to need an iron . Try bounce wrinkle guard dryer sheets. The bounce wrinkle guard shorts have fewer wrinkles and static, and more softness. Its the worlds first mega sheet that does the job of three dryer sheets bounce out wrinkles. After two weeks of at times explosive and revealing impeachment hearings, new legal concerns for some of those implicated in all of the testimony. Joining me now, former assistant Watergate Special prosecutor and msnbc legal contributor Jill Winebanks and Vice President for the National Security program third way and msnbc contributor mika oyang. Ladies, welcome to you both. I want to ask this question of both of you. You were able to digest all of the weeks testimony, so i want to go through some of the things that are being argued as the most damaging moments for donald trump, and that would include ambassador Gordon Sondlands claim that he was taking orders directly from the president to coordinate with Rudy Giuliani regarding ukraine. Lets take a listen to this. As a president ial appointee, i followed the directions of the president. We worked with mr. Giuliani because the president directed us to do so. President trump directed us to, quote, talk with rudy. Mr. Giulianis requests were a quid pro quo for arranging a white house visit for president zelensky. So, ill start with you, jill, on this. Tell me why this is so damaging, because ambassador sondlands credibility itself has been questioned after changing his testimony three times. You are right. And the only reason its so damaging is because its in corroborating with Everything Else we heard. What was so damaging this week was how all of the pieces of puzzle fit together, how everyone testified to the same facts. And the republicans did not do even one attempt at challenging the facts, and the facts make it very clear that the president asked a favor of a foreign power, something that would only help his campaign, had nothing to do with us, that would hurt our National Security. And one of many of the witnesses actually laid out how damaging it was to National Security and how damaging to ukraine as well as to our own National Security. So, it was sort of the whole pattern that made it so damaging. There were many damaging moments, but that was certainly one of them. In terms of damage, how damaging was it to the president . I mean, did you find sondlands testimony credible . I did. And he gave very important testimony that gave us context to that call record that the president himself released. Weve known since the president released that call record the basic outlines of the story, that he brought pressure to bear against a Foreign Government for, as jill says, this personal political benefit. That is the essence of corruption, using your official office for your own personal gain. What sondland did was say, look, the president directed us to do this. The directions came from rudy. Hes giving us this context that explains, behind that call record, there were all these other side conversations to amp up the pressure on the ukrainians to make very clear to them that this was, in fact, the quid pro quo. And mieke, speaking of call records, you have david holmes, counselor to the embassy in ukraine, described what he overheard in that kiev cafe in ukraine, now an infamous phone call between the president and ambassador sondland. Heres that moment. So, you heard President Trump ask ambassador sondland, is he going to do the investigation . Yes, sir. What was ambassador sondlands response . He said, oh, yeah, hes going to do it, hell do anything you ask. Even though i did not take notes of these statements, i have a clear recollection that these statements were made. I believe that my colleagues who were sitting at the table also knew that ambassador sondland was speaking with the president. But he doesnt have notes. So, mieke, why is holmes testimony so critical . David holmes was able to put the words directly in the mouth of the president. He is a firsthand witness to what the president was saying in terms of directing sondland to get this investigation. Sondland is confirming to the president that the ukrainians are interested in consummating this deal. And when sondland gets off the phone with holmes, hes very clear that the president does not have a legitimate interest in ukraine, in our National Security, that he is only interested in the bidens. He says that explicitly. Holmes, who is a career professional, is very good at remembering these things and taking notes, and he talks about how he reported this to his supervisor during that day. Mmhmm. Jill, many could argue that while most of the testimonies were damning to the president or to his allies, one thing that didnt play too well was dr. Fiona hills confirmation that people involved, including herself, knew what burisma really meant. Listen to this. Dr. Hill, was it apparent to you that when President Trump, Rudy Giuliani, or anyone else was pushing for an investigation into burisma that the reason why they wanted that investigation related to what President Trump said here, the bidens . It was very aparneparent to that thats what Rudy Giuliani intended to convey, that burisma was linked to the bidens and he said this publicly repeatedly. It was obvious to you that burisma meant bidens. Yes, it was. Is it credible that mr. Sondland was completely in the dark about this also . You had an argument its not clear to me at all that he was oblivious to this excuse me. It was not credible to me that he was oblivious. Talk about why you think this is significant, who might be implicated now and do you think anyone is, in fact, facing legal jeopardy . Oh, i think there are a lot of people facing legal jeopardy, and i think sondland named them all when he said everyone was in the loop, from Vice President pence to bolton to mulvaney to pompeo. And now, of course, we also have freedom of information act documents that have been released that make it very clear that pompeo was in this chain and knew everything. And you had morrison who said, it took me only a few minutes on google to find out that burisma equalled the bidens. So, it is totally incredible that anyone, including sondland, didnt realize that that was a code word in the same way that we had adoption as a code word for lifting sanctions. People talk in code. They know exactly what they mean. And i know that sondland did. He is a flawed witness. He is not john deane, who has come 100 clean. He has given more than enough to make the case, but he is trying to protect himself, too, and possibly to even protect the president a little bit, because he backed off every time he was asked about the bidens. And we know that the bidens were the heart of it. But let me just point out that even if it was only crowd strike, if it was only the dnc server and the fraudulent accusations that ukraine, instead of russia, which we now know from fiona hill, is a russian narrative that they are perpetrating even if that was the only investigation that was being talked about, its still asking for a favor from a foreign power, and it is corrupt, it is bribery, it is extortion, it is illegal, and it is clearly an impeachable offense. Mieke, do you think its possible sondland was unable to connect burisma to biden . I think its very difficult for him to make that case with a straight face. He, himself, said during that conversation in the cafe that the president was concerned about the bidens. Its very hard. Everyone else who is working ukraine knew about it. Rudy giuliani was repeatedly tweeting about it. There were articles in the hill that livnked those two things. I think for sondland and volker, it is difficult to believe that they didnt know the linkage, or else why would the president care and why would this be the Sticking Point in their negotiations with the ukrainians about this meeting and about the aid . Well, thankfully, both of you ladies are very critical, mieke, jill. Thank you so much. Next, big lie or big mistake . Either way, tim cook is letting the president get away with it. Why it matters, next. T away witt why it matters, next for the holidays. For the holidays you cant beat home sweet home. We go the extra mile to bring your holidays home. Do your asthma symptoms ever hold you back . About 50 of people with severe asthma have too many cells called eosinophils in their lungs. Eosinophils are a key cause of severe asthma. 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Were seeing the beginning of a very powerful and important plan, and anybody that followed my campaign, i would always talk about apple. And i want to see apple building plants in the United States. And thats whats happening. Its happening. Tim cook is somebody that i greatly respect, a great leader, a great businessman, and its a very special day. For me, this is a very special day. Well, that was the president who falsely insinuated that he opened an apple manufacturing plant in texas this week, when in fact, that facility that he toured has been making mack Pro Computers since 2013. Apple ceo tim cook, who accompanied the president , did not correct him. Joining me now, emily stewart, reporter at vox media, with a welcome to you, emily. I know you wrote about this in a story. Yes. Why do you see this as being significant . Well, its sort of an ongoing back and forth between tim cook and donald trump. At times theyre enemies, at times they are friends. And tim cook and trump have seemed to realize that they have sort of a mutually beneficial relationship. And so, in this case, tim cook is lending the apple brand to trump and allowing him to pretend as though this plant just opened because tim cook would like some things from the Trump Administration in terms of tariffs. You know, they just got this big tax cut that they benefited from enormously. So, this is sort of an ongoing dynamic between them. So, do you think that the reason he didnt, while standing right next to the president , correct him i mean, to be factually correct was because he was worried the president might blow up over it, as if he did public embarrassed him or something . Well, we cant get inside of his head. And in the moment, it seems like maybe trump was talking about a campus that apple is planning on opening that will be offices, but then hours later, trump tweeted out that apple had just opened this manufacturing plant. And apple has just been silent about this. They really have not said anything. Ive reached out to them multiple times and i have not heard back. What about something weve learned this week, which is that the president hosted a previously undisclosed dinner with Facebook Ceo Mark Zuckerberg and peter thiel at the white house last month . What do you make of that . Well, to a certain extent and this is what facebook has said it is normal for a ceo to meet with politicians, including with the president. Obviously, why would they not say that he had done this i think is sort of a big question. They met twice this fall, once in september, now in october. And especially amid questions about facebooks policies around political advertising and things like that, you know, we it is a little bit odd, i think more in just the sense that they wouldnt say, maybe. But again, this is somewhat normal for politicians to talk to ceos and ceos who want nice things from, you know, policy to speak with politicians. Yeah, well, as you said, we cant get inside their heads, but im glad youre illuminating whats going on, emily stewart. Thank you very much. Thank you. The highs and lows of the impeachment hearings, from moments of courage to cringeworthy, next. Courage to ingeworthy, next woman 1 oc this is my body of proof. Man 1 vo proof of less joint pain and clearer skin. Man 2 vo proof that i can fight Psoriatic Arthritis. Woman 2 vo . With humira. Woman 3 vo humira targets and blocks a specific source of inflammation that contributes to both joint and skin symptoms. Its proven to help relieve pain, stop further irreversible joint damage, and clear skin in many adults. Humira is the number one prescribed biologic for Psoriatic Arthritis. Avo humira can lower your ability to fight infections. 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Ambassador sondland responded that President Trump cares more about the investigations of biden, which giuliani was pressing for. Shes going to go through some things. It didnt sound good. When i reported my concerns relating to ambassador sondland and then on the president , i did so out of a sense of duty. Was there a quid pro quo . The answer is yes. I did say to him, ambassador sondland, gordon, i think this is all going to blow up, and here we are. I heard President Trump ask, so hes going to do the investigation . Ambassador sondland replied that hes going to do it. The evidence is now out there after a dozen witnesses took part in public hearings over the past two weeks, but which moments were the most impactful for the American Public when it comes to the impeachment inquiry . Joining me now to discuss it, michelle bernard, president and ceo of the Bernard Center for women, politics, and public policy, and Political Columnist amy holmes, former speechwriter for Senate Majority leader bill frist. Ladies, lets get into it here. Michelle, you first, because you heard a handful of the big moments from the hours of testimony. That includes both witnesses and lawmakers. As youve looked back on all this, who would you say stood out as the best and even the worst throughout the hearings in your mind . I mean, resoundingly for me, the best was absolutely dr. Fiona hill. Quite frankly, i thought all of the best people that testified this week were, quite frankly, women. But fiona hill was above and beyond anything anyone could have ever, ever expected. From the beginning she spoke saying that she was an american citizen by choice. She sort of grabbed the nations imagination because youre thinking that this is a woman who came to the United States because of everything that we stood for and that we stand for, or at least are supposed to stand for. And the way she schooled the members of congress, both democratic and republican, and demonstrated her clear knowledge about what russia did, has been doing, the divisiveness that it has brought to the country. And then that statement that she made about, you know, sondland engaging in a political task, rather than engaging in National Security, is something no one will ever forget. Yeah, she was fierce, absolutely. Barry, our director, can you throw back up that full screen . Because i want to look specifically at michelles, the bottomcenter best there, Elise Stefanik. So, to you on this, amy. As weve said, shes being dubbed the star defender of the president. Thats been out there in the last week or so. But she was not always a defender. So, what do you make of her shift . I think its really fascinating that she is actually considered a moderate republican and shes, you know, one of the breakout stars of these hearings. But getting back to some of the lowest points of the hearing, im afraid to say to a lot of our viewers, day four will be the lowest because its the day that you had 1. 5 Million Viewers who had tuned out since day one. Ratings have gone down. Support for impeachment has gone down. Opposition to impeachment has gone up. And this might surprise a lot of our viewers after, you know, what theyve heard all week long, but in fact, gallup finds that President Trumps approval disapproval rating has stayed completely flat. None of this has changed a thing. Interesting. Give me that headline, if we can have that again, the trumpification of Elise Stefanik . Whats that mean . I think that means a partisan attack on the republican congresswoman who didnt like that she was asking questions the aid to ukraine actually delivered. Ukraine got the 400 million. What are we talking about . Also have the transcript. All can read it. You dont have to be a National Security sdpoert gecurity exper. Weve known a long time. The bombshells here were finding from public rating, tv and everything, a big snooze. Michelle, do you want to comment on that . I think you do. Absolutely i cannot disagree more. Number one polling and rating facts is saul im sharing. And i get that. I think its quite sad that we are at a point in our democracy where ratings are what they were but i think its because its trump fatigue. I believe the American Public is absolutely discussed by the fact that our democracy is being ripped apart right in front of us. It was quite interesting. Msnbc aired yesterday i think alex, might have been your program, aired a clip of a town hall meeting held here in virginia with members of the public talking about the impeachment hearings and what i saw was absolutely raw emotion with the American Public saying that it is, even, whether the president is impeached or not, it is the appearance of impropriety that is ripping the nation apart. This is something resounding with the American Public, whether watching on television or not. I believe that if people are tuning out it wouldnt be fair id like to finish my statement, please. Hang on. We cant hear two people at once. Cant figure it out. I need to finish the statement because i think it is very, very important. Peel are watching and if theyre tuning out they are tuning out because of a belief that no matter what we watch, no matter how horrible the evidence is about the fact that the president has put our National Security in jeopardy and made our nation the laughingstock of the world, there are a great number of people who believe that once we get to the senate, Mitch Mcconnell and the people who follow him will do absolutely nothing, because having trump as their president is more important than defending the nations democracy. If that is a reason people would tune out. In point of fact, vanity fair just published a piece two days ago about reasons why people are tuning out. Independents in particular. Over 60 believe impeachment is far more important to politicians and the media than it is to them. Its not actually addressing the Kitchen Table issues they think washington should be focused on. The New York Times had a piece out this week interviewing people who dont like trump probably wont be voting for him but think democrats are overreaching when it comes to impeachment. I said on this show more than once that i think if democrats have gone down the censure route they probably could have gotten a lot of republicans onboard. You dont remove a president because you hate him. Look, the truth is weve not talked a lot about the situation with Health Insurance in this company for sure the last couple of weeks. Seemed to be top of mind for mother american citizens. Sondland, guys, heard this earlier. I want to play again a piece of his testimony. Take as listen. Was there a quid pro quo . As i testified previously with regard to the requested white house call and the white house meeting, the answer is, yes. How crucial, michelle, was this moment for the impeachment ib cho inquiry . Believing in fundamental fair inside and beliefs in democracy, absolutely crucial. Secondly, very important and critical to the impeachment hearings because sondland was appointed as ambassador to the European Union by donald trump. He doesnt hate donald trump. He simply told the truth. Just from that perspective alone. The question, should there be articles of impeachment . Did the president engage in a quid pro quo . Was there a bribery scheme . Was there a scheme that said if you do such and such, for example, if you, investigate joe biden my political opponent or the person that the president believes will be his opponent in 2020, then you will get a meeting in the white house and then we will lee rerelease aid very important. It youre a republican, Mitch Mcconnell, in the senate, no big deal because we are no longer a nation of laws in their eyes. So, amy, with regard to Gordon Sondlandy, i mean, this is a man the president he gave 1 million to his inauguration. The president appointed him apparently on the phone. That phone call in ukraine he has the president on speed dial or something. The president pivoting, yeah, i hardly movie t lly know the guy. What are you reading into this . Weve heard that from President Trump several times. When not helping him politically, not the first time the president said that. Youve said earlier on your show, one of the problems with sondland he has changed his testimony, not a reliable witness and in a court of law the defense would point that out. What can you believe from this guy since he keeps changing his story . Again, impeachment is political. Ladies, thank you both for weighing in. Look forward to seeing you again. Thank you. Rudy giuliani is speaking out a short time ago why he thinks President Trump wont throw him under the bus. More on him at the top of the hour. Of the hour. Th of perspective. A wealth of opportunities. Thats the clarity you get from fidelity wealth management. 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Following new questions what role secretary of state mike pompeo may have played in the Smear Campaign to remove u. S. Ambassador Marie Yovanovitch in ukraine. A russian redo. The u. S. Intelligence community sounding the alarm about russian meddling again. So why are so many republicans including President Trump still promoting putins false narrative . After a whirlwind two weeks of public testimony from 12 different witnesses, 35plus hours, where do voters stand on impeachment . The new polling that tells us just how closely americans have been watching all of this and whether theyve already made up their minds. W