Transcripts For MSNBCW Weekends With Alex Witt 20191116

Minutes. Okay. Meantime, good day to all of you from msnbc World Headquarters in new york. High noon in the east, 9 00 a. M. Out west. Welcome, everyone, to weekends with alex witt. Closeddoor testimony now under way. How a senior white house budget official could hold an important piece of the impeachment puzzle. Also, the first direct account of an overheard phone call where the president allegedly asks about ukraine investigations. Forget about everything else, why this could be the real bombshell moment. The testimony you might have missed. The biggest takeaways from the first public hearings. Plus the point of order is will the chairman continue to prohibit witnesses from answering republican questions as youve done in closed hearings and as you did gentlewoman will suspend. This week when you interrupted our questions. Not a proper point of order. Jeanetgentle woman will suspend what was that about . A member of congress explains. But top of the hour, breaking news as right now, a rare saturday closeddoor deposition is under way on capitol hill as the impeachment inquiry to President Trump reaches day 54. Mark sandy, a longtime career employee at the White House Office of management and budget breaking ranks to become the first omb official to testify in the investigation. Now, his deposition taking place as we speak, and it could fill in important details on the holdup of military aid to ukraine. Weve got Live Team Coverage in washington, d. C. , as this all unfolds. Nbcs Garrett Haake is on capitol hill. Nbcs Kelly Odonnell is at the white house. With a welcome to you both. First, lets go to you, garrett. Is there any word on the deposition yet . And if not, what are the expectations from mark sandy . Reporter well, sandy just got under way about 10 00 this morning. Hes expected to go late into the afternoon. We have not heard a word out of him. And in fact, we were told by his attorney that he did not prepare an Opening Statement. So, it may be a little while before we get into the meat of what sandy is able to tell investigators, but we know why they want him here. You know, its washington scandal 101 to try to follow the money. And sandy is the first witness who could potentially let democrats do that. He is a top official at the office of management and budget. It would be across his desk that the paperwork would have to move to get that military aid to ukraine or to hold it up, and he represents the first person from that office who has agreed to come testify. Hes here pursuant to a subpoena. Several other officials from omb have refused to come and talk. So, hes an important missing piece for democrats as theyve tried to circle this entire impeachment inquiry. He, you know, could help them close the loop on one piece of this that they have not yet been able to obtain. Okay. So, we have that. And once again, i just want to clarify, garrett, that hes the one who says green light, lets put this money through, but he would also be the person through whom a stop light would be issued, right . Reporter thats our understanding here, absolutely. You know, congress appropriated this money. It was set to go. Its really the action of stopping it that becomes news worthy here. We know from other depositions that there were discussions at Different Levels of the government, was it even legal to stop the spending of this money once it had been sort of moved along in the process. Sandy can tell these lawmakers much more about what happened behind the scenes in the real machinery of government to make this happen. All right. Clearly important testimony going on behind those closed doors, garrett. Thank you for that. Lets go to kelly at the white house, as kelly, we are getting some word of the president s most ardent supporters in the house, their defense. Is it changing at all . Reporter so far, the republicans are keying on to a couple of basic principles where they say the facts havent changed. And youll hear that from congressman jim jordan of ohio, who was added to the Intelligence Committee in order to bring his voice to these public hearings. And so, thats important for the president. And also, were hearing from the president himself, who is tweeting today, as he does so regularly. The president s here at the white house, has not gone golfing on a nice saturday, although its cold here in d. C. , and otherwise has no public events, where he has been critical of the impeachment inquiry. In part, he has misspelled the name of the chairman of the house Intelligence Committee, adam schiff. Instead of two fs at the end of his name, two ts. I wont say that out loud. You can determine whether that was an intentional misspelling to undercut and sort of make fun of the chairman or if that was, you know, kind of bumpy thumbs when the president is tweeting. Both can be true where hes concerned. So, the president has been talking about the other attempts to go after, investigate, and so forth, his administration, including the mueller investigation, have not produced the effect that perhaps democrats had wanted. Here is how republicans on the hill are talking about the defense so far, and it really is focused on the timeline and what is evident or not evident based on how you review the evidence. Heres jim jordan explaining that earlier today. I think, frankly, things are going well for the president. You know, theyve had three hearings, three witnesses with no firsthand knowledge. I say this all the time, but you know, thats the thing about facts, they dont change. We have the call transcript. We have the two individuals on the call, President Trump, president zelensky, who said there was no linkage, no pressure, no pushing whatsoever, no linkage between any Security Assistance dollars and an investigation. We have the fact that the ukrainians didnt even know that the aid was held at the time of the call. And most importantly, of course, we have the fact that they didnt do anything to get the aid released. Reporter that is the bottom line, that the aid eventually flowed and that no investigation into the bidens was done by ukraine. And so, republicans have keyed on that as being important and have focused most directly on the president s words and his conduct that have been revealed through the call memos of the two phone calls involved. Now, of course, what democrats are finding is there is a lot more story to tell, and thats how theyre using some of these other witnesses, expanding the timeline, taking it back a few months before the nowfamous call to give a sense of what the replaced ukrainian ambassador, Marie Yovanovitch, was experiencing, what she has described as a smear campaign. Today hearing from mark sandy, who may be able to tell us more about the timeline of how the aid was held up and then ultimately released, what did he know about that . And then the ear witness who testified late yesterday, actually hearing, he says, the president s voice coming through a phone call with Eu Ambassador Gordon Sondland, who was directly involved in these negotiations. So, democrats are saying theres a lot more evidence to look at. Republicans are taking a narrower focus and saying that is good for the president. All of this, however, is something the president has said repeatedly, he doesnt like the word impeachment, calls it a dirty word, and has said this week that its hard on his family as well. Yeah. Alex . Can i go back to the tweet that the president put out there relative to adam schiff . Just, youll remember this, kelly, he did misspell in the exact same way the congressmans last name once before, and i remember laughing out loud to congressman schiffs response to the president , which was, wow, thats a good one, mr. President. It is what it is. Just saying, a little humor back and forth. Reporter it could be corrected if he so chose. Bingo. There you go. Thank you, kelly. Gabby orr is White House Reporter at politico and joy reid, host of msnbcs a. M. Joy, who stuck around as i begged her to do. Of course. Thank you, ladies. How do you assess the words of the president as articulated by jim jordan there . Its interesting. Its clear that they cant defend donald trump on the substance, and so, they did theatrics during the debate. But what ive also heard from republican sources is that that was not good enough for the president , that donald trump actually wants to be defended on the substance. And jim jordan is nothing, if not obedient. And so, you know, what i think jordan et al. Are trying to do is to shift from, they want to do the process arguments because that just is disruptive and can sort of try to bring the hearing to a halt, but theyre trying to find a way to defend on the substance. And so, what theyre saying is, okay, if donald trump plotted to do this, it didnt get done, and therefore, theres nothing wrong with it. And even if hes on a phone call saying he wants dirt on the bidens, theres nothing wrong with it because he didnt get dirt on the bidens. Well, try to tell somebody accused of bank robbery that if they fail to get into the vault but still broke into the bank, theyre not going to be indicted for attempting to rob the bank or that attempted murder is not a crime, or you know. The fact that you couldnt pull it off or that you couldnt induce the government of ukraine to do the deed, that doesnt make him innocent of the deed. Right. The problem that republicans have is that donald trump we now have an ear witness, i think it was rightly called, that heard him say he wanted the dirt on biden. Its a big problem for him. Yeah. What about mark sandy, joy . Give me a sense of the significance of this testimony in terms of what democrats want to hear from him. Well, i think its important, because if youll recall, Donald Trumps current chief of staff, Mick Mulvaney, was the director of omb. Thats what he was before he, you know, let that go in order to just be chief of staff i think he still oversees that job, too, right . Hes still overseeing it, right. Exactly. And sandys sort of acting in lieu of him because hes also chief of staff. So, you have Mick Mulvaney giving the order, were not giving this aid over remember, it wasnt theirs to hold back. This was aid that congress had already appropriated for ukraine. They had approved ukraine even on the corruption issues in may of this year and said theyre clean on that, give them the money. And so, then you have the order going from the real omb director, which is the chief of staff mulvaney, going to mr. Sandy and its sandy who executes the order. So, he is a direct witness to what happen because hes the one who had to make it happen. The problem that the Trump Defense is going to have here is that it wasnt discretionary money. It was the money that had been appropriated, so theyre defying a congressional order, essentially. Congress said give them the money. So thats a problem theyre not dweg to be able to wriggle out of, and he provides direct evidence of that. Okay. A couple questions for you now, gabby. First of all, whos most at risk of being implicated in mark sandys testimony . Thats a good question. I think Mick Mulvaney is one of the characters that we havent heard much about lately, in both closeddoor testimony and in public testimony as well, and mark sandy is, of course, extremely close to Mick Mulvaney, having that position at omb. Mick mulvaney was involved in the decisionmaking in terms of halting this aid to ukraine. And while mark sandy wasnt necessarily involved in what went into deciding to withhold that aid, he was involved in the mechanics of actually halting it. And so, i do think that he can speak directly to the key players in that decision and what their motivation was, and certainly, Mick Mulvaney is somebody who were all keeping a close eye on as we follow this investigation. And gabby, what is the white house stance on all of this . Because i cannot imagine that they wanted him to appear today, right . Well, they dont want anybody inside the administration to testify because the white house counsels office, as you recall, put out a lengthy letter last month, essentially saying that this entire impeachment inquiry is a sham, is a charade, that it shouldnt be taken seriously, its illegitimate, so no official should legitimize it by appearing before the house Intelligence Committee. So, the fact that mark sandy will be appearing behind closed doors is significant. The fact that Mick Mulvaney was even considering it by joining that lawsuit that he has since withdrawn from, but you know, exploring the possibility of sitting before the house Intelligence Committee also upset the president , according to white house officials who have relayed that to me. Yeah, well, well make the point that mark sandy was issued a subpoena to appear, so there is that to discuss. Of course. More, of course, here. I want to get to the other major headline, ladies. This is today in the impeachment inquiry. New details from yesterdays closeddoor testimony by david holmes. Hes the Embassy Staffer in ukraine who says that he overheard the president s phone call of ambassador Gordon Sondland. According to his Opening Statement obtained by nbc news, holmes said, i then heard President Trump ask, so hes going to do the investigation . Ambassador sondland relied that hes going to do it, adding that president zelensky will do anything you ask him to. Heres representative swalwell describing the impact of holmes testimony. In that statement that was released, there is a lot to be concerned about, particularly that more witnesses describe the president s obsession with investigating his political opponents. So now were going to evaluate whether that warrants bringing him in, in a public hearing. Republican house intel money jim jordan also responding to the testimony today, appearing to brush it all off. Youve got some guy overheard a phone call. Im sure hes going to be in a witness next week. Well have him in an open hearing and we will get a chance to question him there. Gabby, to you first here. Do you think that line of defense stays fresh for republicans, or does it have not that much time left in terms of shelf life, expiring when Gordon Sondland testifies this week . Yeah, its something thats worked for them so far. If you talk to republicans on the hill and officials within the trump campaign, they feel like that messaging, that most of the people who have appeared publicly so far have been second or thirdhand sources. They feel like thats resonating with voters. But of course, david holmes is somebody who could make that defense a lot more difficult. He was there. He was present. He overheard this phone call. He can speak directly to what the president said in a way that makes that entire defense very difficult for republicans moving forward. And so, i do think that this could be one of the most potentially detrimental testimonies that well hear publicly, if he does appear before the house Intelligence Committee in public and not behind closed doors. Yeah, so joy, heres what jeremy bash of course, one of our Msnbc National Security analysts and former chief of staff at the cia and the department of defense heres what he told me earlier today on the significance of holmes testimony. Take a listen. The president s defenders have repeatedly said that this is all hearsay, this is all secondhand information, that none of the witnesses have actually heard the president s own voice say that he was demanding an investigation of joe biden. Now along comes this Career Foreign Service officer, a professional, david holmes, and he says, no, i did hear the president s own voice. So, gabby touched on this, but how much do you think it changes the dynamic of the impeachment inquiry overall . I think well, look, its im sorry, this is to joy. Sorry. Well, i think its a huge problem for the president , because you know, alex, what this does is it puts the deed in the mouth of the president of the United States. Thats important, because this is now not someone interpreting what donald trump wanted done. This is someone hearing donald trump say in his own voice what he wanted done, investigations of his political rival. And heres the other important thing and im sitting here looking at the testimony, too, as we all have been since we got it at nbc news. Its whats not in here thats also a problem for donald trump, because what he did not say on that overheard phone call is that i want ukraine to stop corruption, to limit corruption, to deal with corruption. That has been part of the trump teams defense, that all he really cared about was beating that corruption in ukraine. Well, thats not what he said. What he said was when am i going to get the investigations . And you now have holmes overhearing that thats all he cared about, that he didnt care at all about ukraine. That he didnt care at all about corruption. He only cared about getting those investigations into that Conspiracy Theory that clears russia and into the bidens. Thats important because its as if nixon was caught doing the watergate breakin it puts it in his own voice and it demolishing Donald Trumps defense. So, sondland either comes forward this week and confirms that which the others have said or risks potential perjury, if he decides not to. Yes. Joy, if you put all this together, does it have a smoking gun element to it . It absolutely does, because the problem is, is that sondland, as you just rightly said, alex, risks perjury if he then denies it. You now have at least one witness. Nbc news has not corroborated if theres a second person, but there are stories swirling around that there might be more than one person that heard it. They said that they did the discussion in a restaurant anybody sitting near them having a bagel could have heard them. So, the problem is that they werent careful and that donald trump was so adamant that he just kept asking for the investigations. And if you have an ear witness that heard it, sondland is going to have a really hard time wriggling out of what weve had, very trusted, very credible witnesses say that he said and that he heard donald trump say back to him. Yep. Ive got congressman Gerry Connolly coming up. Im going to ask him all about this, about this rumor that there may be a second person forthcoming who overheard things as well. So its not hearsay any longer. Meantime, gabby and joy, ladies, thank you very much. Always great to talk to you. Thank you. At times it got ugly, the bickering between republicans and democrats. Why did the hearing suddenly devolve into a rollicking, raucous, gavelbacking affair . 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And now get 250 off when you buy a new Samsung Phone during Xfinity Mobile beyond black friday. Plus, you can save up to 400 a year. Click, call or visit a store today. Another day of breaking developments on capitol hill. A closeddoor deposition under way right now with mark sandy, first office of management and budget official to testify in defiance of the white house. We are monitoring that. We are going to bring you any news as we get it. Meantime, we bring in congressman Gerry Connolly, democrat from virginia, member of the oversight and Foreign Affairs committees. Welcome, congressman. Always good to see you, sir. Great to be with you, alex. Thank you, sir. I know you were not at todays deposition of mark sandy, again, that senior official at the White House Office of management and budget. But what are the expectations . What would you want to hear from him specifically . Obviously, he can inform the committee of inquiry about the details of the decision, who made it, and why, to suspend military aid to ukraine. And there was an earlier suspension, remember, on the javelin missiles, separate from the full package that had been approved by four levels, intelligence, defense, state department, but was held up by omb, and nobody knew why. And the javelin missiles were important, and there were reports that mulvaney held it up because he was worried about the russian reaction to the provision of javelin missiles, which are a very effective antitank weapons that are very important to ukraines defense. So, wed want to know about both of those things. And i think he can, sandy can shed a lot of light on them. Its so interesting. Its as if the United States is talking out of both sides of its mouth there. Yeah. Providing the weaponry, and yet, very concerned that this might offend russia, by your account there. Let me ask you about the room yesterday in which you were when david holmes testified in that closed session. The Washington Post is calling his testimony a friday night surprise. Can you give us a sense of the reaction in the room to what all holmes had to say . Well, i think the description thats been made public of the phone conversation in the restaurant was very gripping, very compelling. And you know, ambassador sondland made the phone call in a public place, in a restaurant in kiev, ukraine. The president s voice was quite recognizable but was so loud that ambassador sondland had to take the phone and move it away from his ear because it was almost deafening. The problem from ambassador sondland was that by doing that, others could hear the conversation and could distinctly hear the president. And as you indicated earlier and joy indicated, in that conversation, theres no evidence of President Trump having any interest whatsoever in ending corruption or abating corruption in ukraine. He, in fact, wanted to foster corruption by making sure that the investigations were being pursued and pursued aggressively by the new president of ukraine and that sondland was pressing their case. Do you think sondland do you expect him to testify in corroboration, if you will, with that testimony when he speaks on wednesday . Well, i think ambassador sondland has a problem. Hes already amended his earlier testimony before the committee of inquiry in closed deposition, because subsequent witnesses, you know, frankly, contradicted parts of his testimony. In this case, it would be very difficult for ambassador sondland to deny what happened in a public place that was, you know, witnessed. And so, hes going to have some explaining to do, no question about it. Are you chasing down a second witness to that conversation . You know, i do not have firsthand knowledge of that. I have read the reports that there is at least one other person who also heard that conversation. That wouldnt surprise me, given what mr. Holmes described in the restaurant. Mmhmm, that it was that loud. That it was out loud. What about yovanovitchs testimony . What did you think about the hearings overall, her testimony . What stood out for you . First of all, what stood out to me about her this is a patriot. This is someone who has sacrificed a great deal for her country. This is a consummate professional. And she was the subject of a deliberate campaign of smear and slander to take her out. And why . Because she was pursuing an agenda, an anticorruption agenda in ukraine that was unpopular with the then government and unpopular with giulianis contact in the Ukrainian Government. And furthermore, i think the three amigos and President Trump understood that yovanovitch would never cooperate with this shadow parallel effort at trying to get ukraines cooperation to get dirt on a prospective political opponent. I want to take a look at a few of the exchanges between the chairman and gop representatives in the hearing. Take a listen. The beginning of the story is an effort to get you out of the way, because they felt you were an impediment to these political investigations the president so desperately wanted, and you were viewed as an obstacle that had to go, not just by giuliani, but by the president of the United States. And if people had any doubt about it, they should will the chairman continue to prohibit witnesses from answering republican questions as youve done in closed hearings and as you did gentlewoman will suspend. When you interrupted our questions that is not a proper point of order. Gentleman is not recognized. Chairman, there are four transcripts that have not been released. Gentleman is not recognized i want you to release the four transcripts of depositions gentleman is not recognized. Thats my point of order. Gentleman will suspend. Schiff appears to be playing really by the book here. Assess his fairness in handling the hearings so far. My experience of adam schiff chairing both closed depositions and now the public hearings weve had is that he is a professional chairman who is keeping order. He is allowing fairness and balance. The republicans have equal time to question witnesses in depositions. I think its important to note that its not adam schiff whos behaved in an untoward manner in the course of this set of proceedings, its the republicans. Its one thing to question procedure. Its another to deliberately try to disrupt. They resorted to a physical assault on the room of depositions, which happens to be a scif, a special, compartmentalized intelligence, that is highly secure, into which one must never bring your electronics, because they can compromise the facility itself. And that facility is used by congress for receiving intelligence and secure information. So, that was really a low point. But think about what that represented. They had to resort to a physical assault to try to prevent these proceedings from going forward. Thats their defense. Yeah, i think what youve said, the point that hes trying to keep order in a place where things could very quickly develop into a raucous side show. Anyway, i think you said that very well. Gerry connolly, always good to see you, sir. Thank you so much. Thank you, alex. My pleasure. Prince andrew answers questions about his links to Jeffrey Epstein for the first time in a tv interview. His own words, next. And former star nfl quarterback Colin Kaepernick has a chance to get back into the game, but is todays tryout really giving him a fair shot . Really giving him a fair shot . As a struggling actor, i need all the breaks that i can get. At liberty butchemel. Cut. Liberty mu. Line . Cut. Liberty mutual customizes your Car Insurance so you only pay for what you need. Cut. Liberty m. Am i allowed to riff . What if i come out of the water . Liberty biberty. Cut. Well dub it. Liberty mutual customizes your Car Insurance so you only pay for what you need. Only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Man 1 vo proof of less joint pain woman 1 oc this is my body of proof. And clearer skin. Man 2 vo proof that i can fight psoriatic arthritis. Woman 2 vo . With humira. Woman 3 vo humira targets and blocks a specific source of inflammation that contributes to both joint and skin symptoms. 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Reporter quite a lot, alex. Its important to point out the anticipation behind the interview, right inside buckingham palace, had been building for some time. One of the reasons is because the prince had only been communicating via carefully worded statements, which is why today for the first time, a lot of the public took notice when the prince finally spoke out in his own words. I have no recollection of ever meeting this lady. None whatsoever. Reporter this morning, the duke of york firing back, facing tough questions over his ties to disgraced financier Jeffrey Epstein. This video capturing what appears to be andrew saying goodbye to a young woman at the door of epsteins new york mansion. Sometime after epstein was designated a sex offender. The fact that once he had been convicted you stayed with him . I stayed with him. And thats the bit that, as it were, i kick myself for on a daily basis, because it was not something that was becoming of a member of the royal family, and we try and uphold the highest standards and practices. Simple as that. Reporter back in august, he said, at no stage during the limited time that i spent with him did i see, witness, or suspect any behavior of the sort that subsequently led to his arrest and conviction. The duke of york also denied he was hooked up with virginia roberts, pictured here at just 17. In an exclusive interview, roberts described the encounter with the prince after a night out at a london club. I hop in the car with gelin and jeffrey, and gelin said, hes coming back to the house and i want you to do for him what you do for epstein. I couldnt believe it. Prince andrew, of course, denies that this ever happened. He denies that it ever happened, and hes going to keep denying that it ever happened, but he knows the truth and i know the truth. You dont remember meeting her . No. Reporter so, you heard the prince there denying he had ever met that woman. And despite those claims, royal commentators are already saying that by doing this very interview, the prince is only opening himself up to more scrutiny, to not only himself but also the entire royal family. In the meantime, the estate of Jeffrey Epstein has announced that they are looking to create a fund that would benefit those victims that, if in fact signed off by a judge, could give monetary damages to the victims in these cases. Alex . Okay. Morgan chesky in london. Thank you for that. Back stateside in just about two hours, former San Francisco 49ers qb Colin Kaepernick will take part in a private workout organized by the nfl just outside of atlanta. Some people have shown up outside of that facility to send him a message. Blayne alexander is live from flowery branch, georgia, once again. Give me a sense with a welcome to you what the feeling is out there today. Reporter well, alex, you know, whats really interesting about this is that were expecting this to be completely closed, completely private, closed to the press. But what weve been seeing over the past couple hours is a stream of people coming out here behind me because they simply want to send a message to Colin Kaepernick. In fact, the number of people has been growing over the past two hours or so. I talked with one guy who says he drove from two hours away. Hes wearing kaepernicks number 7 jersey and has a sign that simply says im with kaep. But on the other side, kaepernick is called unpatriotic and one man says he wants him out of his town. So, alex, its clear that even some three years after he played his last game in the nfl, theres still a lot of passion on both sides. Take a look. Im not here to disparage anybody or any organization or anything like that. Im simply here to lift up the flag of the United States. I just want to let him see a face that theres at least a couple people in this world that stands behind him and supports him in rooting him on. His message has not been lost. Reporter so, certainly a lot of people coming out here with messages. What is really important about this, alex, is the substance of today. Remember, this is very unprecedented for the nfl to organize a private workout, invite all 32 teams in the league, bring Colin Kaepernick out here and just organize this entire thing. Again, its going to be completely private. We do understand, however, that 25 teams are going to have some sort of representation here today, be it scouts or people who are just here to watch and essentially see what he has on the field. And for the other teams that are not going to be here, the nfl has made it clear that theyre going to send the video out to all of those teams for review, alex. Extraordinary day in so many ways. Thank you, blayne alexander. Next, calls for white house adviser Stephen Miller to resign for pushing a White Nationalist agenda. Why is the president keeping him . Im going to ask omarosa that question next. M . Im going to ask omarosa that question next. Lack of impulse , is about to become your problem. Ahh no, come on. I saw you eating poop earlier. Hey my focus is on the road, and thats saving me cash with drivewise. Whos the dummy now . Whoof whoof so get allstate where good drivers save 40 for avoiding mayhem, like me. Sorry hes a baby thouwhich is Breast Cancer metastthat has spreadcer, to other parts of the body, are living in the moment and taking ibrance. Ibrance with an aromatase inhibitor is for postmenopausal women or for men with hr her2 metastatic Breast Cancer, as the first hormonal based therapy. Ibrance plus letrozole significantly delayed disease progression versus letrozole, and shrank tumors in over half of patients. 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Quickbooks. Backing you. Im a verizon engineer, and im part of the Team Building the most powerful 5g experience for america. Its 5g ultra wideband for massive capacity and ultrafast speeds. Almost 2 gigs here in minneapolis. Thats 25 times faster than todays network in new york city. So people from midtown manhattan to downtown denver can experience what our 5g can deliver. woman and if verizon 5g can deliver performance like this in these places. Its pretty crazy. Just imagine what it can do for you. Twelving this hour, several democratic lawmakers are calling on white house Senior Adviser Stephen Miller to design, in response to newly uncovered emails which show he pushed the website breitbart to cover White Nationalist content between 2015 and 2016. In emails linked to hatewatch, a branch of the southern poverty law center, a report showed more than 80 of the 900 emails obtained related to race or immigration. Hatewatch characterized miller as being obsessed with white genocide. He now plays a direct role in forming the immigration policy. The white house has denounced that report. But joining me now, someone who worked with miller in the white house, Omarosa Manigault newman, former Senior Adviser to President Trump and the bestselling author of unhinged an insiders account of the trump white house. Welcome back to the broadcast. Nice to talk with you, omarosa. Hey, alex. What is your reaction to this report and these emails . Is there anything here that surprises you . You know, in any other administration, alex, this would be shocking. It would be a headline in every newspaper across the country, but not in the trump administration, not where donald trump brought in steve bannon to help shape and mold his immigration policy. Revolution miller is a white supremacist and racist and has advanced these notions is not shocking because this is an extension of who donald trump is. Do you think Stephen Miller should resign as a result of this . We absolutely know that he should resign, but will he . Absolutely not. Stephen miller is the chief architect of Donald Trumps most dark and divisive immigration policies, and hes carrying out the wishes and whims of donald trump. He is living his dream. This is his dream since he was in the office of jeff sessions. And so, i dont believe that he will resign, nor will donald trump have the courage or the decency to ask him to resign. But you know, omarosa, theres an article in the daily beast which suggests exactly what youre saying, but also that there are white house insiders who are saying the guy should go, but it is the president who has his back. Well, remember when everyone was crying foul when steve bannon was in the white house, and everyone was saying he has to go, he has to go. The only reason that steve bannon was pushed out was because of what happened in charlottesville. So, only short of Something Like that happening would donald trump even consider getting rid of his righthand man. Steve miller. All right, lets go to the impeachment inquiry now and talk about that, with the president tweeting out attacks against former Ukraine Ambassador Marie Yovanovitch while she was testifying wow. In that public hearing. Yeah, that was a big wow by a lot of peoples estimations. Democrats were accusing the president of witness intimidation. Lets listen to the president s response to that. I have the right to speak. Ivan freedom of speech, just as other people do. But theyve taken away the republicans rights. Do you believe your tweets and your words db. Yes, go ahead. Sir, do you believe quiet, quiet, quiet. Sir, do you believe your tweets and words can be intimida intimidating . I dont think so at all. I dont know, that quiet, quiet, quiet is a little intimidating. But look, you just heard what the president thinks. How do you view this, omarosa . Do you think it was witness intimidation . There is no question that this is witness intimidation, and its par for the course for donald trump. It also shows that he has a very special disdain for women in powerful positions. I thought it was very, very telling when the ambassador said, yes, this is very, very intimidating, and you could see that she was shook by the fact that the most powerful man on the face of the earth was tweeting while she was trying to tell her truth. It also served the purpose to try to silence anyone else who would have the courage to come forward and tell their side of the story. So donald trump knew exactly what he was doing, he knew it was wrong, and he did it anyway because he believes that there are no consequences for his bad behavior. So, it is the second impeachment which youve had a tangential relationship to, as Deputy Assistant director of deputy personnel in the Clinton White house during the impeachment. Im curious to ask you, do you think this investigation into this president will result in, a, an impeachment by the house, or b, removal by the senate . You know, first and foremost, what donald trump did was, in fact, wrong. Bribery is wrong. It is outlined in the constitution as very, very clear. And so, yes, donald trump should be impeached and will be impeached in the house. Now, it gets a little tricky in the senate. I think that as more people come forward, as we saw today with people revealing that they heard firsthand that donald trump was the mastermind behind this scheme as people come forward, i believe that the senate will have to reckon with whats right for this country and not just for their political agenda. So, i think its a long stretch that a longshot that he would, in fact, be removed in the senate. But senators will have to come to terms with their decision once that trial starts. In the senate. And youre right, this is the second time ive lived through it. I think about the staffers who are in the white house and what it was like as a junior staffer when i was in Clinton White house, going to work every single day knowing that this could, in fact, be the end of the president s reign and needs to be the end of Donald Trumps reign. So i actually think about the staffers that i served with in the white house and what it must be like for them to go in every single day and try to carry out the work of the American People. Yeah. I do want to get you to weigh in on the book a warning by anonymous. As you know, its set to hit the book shelves on tuesday. You were here on my show back when the anonymous the New York Times op ed was published over a year ago and i want to take a listen to something you told me. We had a little hashtag, tfa, which you know, now that i think about, im a little embarrassed to tell you how often when i went through my text change from the white house, i saw tfa, 25th amendment. Whenever he did something insane and crazy and unhinged, when he would flip positions from one hour to the next, wed just tfa and wed keep moving. So, according to the Washington Post, omarosa, this new book claims that senior officials believe that Vice President mike pence would have supported use of the 25th amendment, you know, tfa. Yes. The Vice President certainly denied all these claims that were made in the book, but do you think this all connects to what youd told us last year about the hashtag . Yeah. And you know, nikki haley, in fact, talks about being recruited by kelly and tillerson to, in fact, try to start the movement for tfa. We were all living in this nightmare. Every time donald trump did something that we thought was dangerous, that would actually impact the American People in a negative way, we had to find a way to kind of cope. And like i said, wed just hashtag it and keep going. But now we see that the levels of this idea of removing him because he could not carry out the duties that he was called to do was much more extensive. Im curious to see how this person who calls them self a senior official will actually be able to effectively tell the story because theres been so many books written at this point and so many anecdotes about President Trumps bizarre behavior. Id like to see how it impacts peoples opinions of donald trump. Well, weve got a lot of things to thank you for on your recipe for appearing, but lets thank you for being the bestselling author at this point. Thank you, omarosa. Thank you, alex. A smoking gun. How testimony from a staffer who heard the president s phone call firsthand is poking holes in the republicans main defense. Ue ps, every day can begin with flakes. Its a reminder of your struggles with psoriasis. But what if your psoriasis symptoms didnt follow you around . Thats why theres ilumya. With just 2 doses, a majority of people were clear or almost clear. And over time, even more people were clear or almost clear. All with dosing 4 times a year. After 2 initial doses. Plus, ilumya was shown to have similar risks of infections compared to placebo. Dont use if you are allergic to ilumya or any of its ingredients. Before starting treatment, your doctor should check for tuberculosis and infections. After checking there is no need for routine Lab Monitoring unless your doctor advises it. Ilumya may increase your risk of infections and lower your ability to fight them. Tell your doctor if you have an infection or have symptoms, or if you plan to or have recently received a vaccine. This could be your chance to leave your psoriasis symptoms behind. Ask your doctor for ilumya today, for a clearer tomorrow. I think ambassador sondland has a problem. Hes already amended his earlier testimony before the committee of inquiry in closed deposition, because subsequent witnesses, you know, frankly, contradicted parts of his testimony. In this case, it would be very difficult for ambassador sondland to deny what happened in a public place that was, you know, witnessed. And so, hes going to have some explaining to do. House Oversight Committee member Gerry Connolly just a few minutes ago on new revelations in yesterdays closeddoor testimony by david holmes, who described that phone call he overheard between the president and Eu Ambassador Gordon Sondland. Joining me, Danielle Moody mills, cohost of the democracyish podcast, bill press, host of the bill press pod and republican strategist rick tyler and msnbc analyst. Rick, where are you, jerusalem . Is that where you are . Im in jerusalem today, yes, maam. Okay. Long distance. May have a little bit of a delay. Thank you. Im coming to you from the future. Its all right. All right. Danielle, question to you first here. How big a gamechanger is this for democrats . I mean, i think that its a huge game changer. Look, all of the pushback that the republicans have been saying is that we dont have any firsthand information. Everything that democrats have put up has been hearsay. And the reason why it has been secondhand information is because the white house and this president has decided to block everyone who was on that call from being able to testify. So, this, having heard this having heard Donald Trumps own words say, you know, are things all set, will zelensky, you know, play ball, i think that this matters. Weigh the gravity, rick, for me, of these revelations for both sondland and the president. Well, look, i think it makes the republicans look most foolish, as we just heard, because since the campaign, President Trump says things, he goes out and says things, and then they turn out not to be true and they have all these surrogates going out and defe defending him and the argument keeps changing. Now, no one is denying the president clearly wanted an investigation of the bidens. What is less clear, but what i think common sense or wisdom will dictate, is that they wanted it in exchange for a meeting and aid that we normally would provide to the ukrainians. The real problem, though, is for our allies, it sends a horrible signal that we are not a dependable ally, and for our enemies, its worse. It basically gives them the recipe of how to manipulate donald trump. If donald trump is willing to play ball for his political purposes and hes willing to compromise u. S. National security if hell get it. So, david holmes private testimony, bill, that followed the open hearing with Marie Yovanovitch, of course, former ambassador to the ukraine. What stood out to you from her testimony . I think there are two things that have stood out from both days, alex. One is how simple this is. This isnt complicated like the mueller investigation. Rick tyler, our good friend, said it best a couple weeks ago on this show when we were together aid for dirt. Simple as that. As simple and as terrible as that. Number two, how donald trump is at the very core of this, and that came out in ambassador yovanovitchs testimony through the tweet that donald trump made at that time, has come out from david holmes last night about this phone call from donald trump himself. It will come out today with mark sandy talking about how omb was given the orders through Mick Mulvaney from donald trump not to release the money. And then we learned this morning that donald trump himself had a meeting with Rudy Giuliani and those two henchmen, fruman and parents, on hein ka at the white house and told them their mission was to go get ukraine to investigate the bidens. I think that is really damning all the way across, and more and more stuff comes out every day. You know, it makes me think when you say its simple did you guys hear the daily podcast on a wednesday with a third grader who had this thing all outlined . And i was like, okay, the kids 8. Its not that hard. Aid for dirt. House Intel Committee chair adam schiff, of course, slamming the president for his tweets attacking Marie Yovanovitch, calling it witness intimidation. He did so in realtime. And then talking about how seriously they take obstruction of inquiry. Is this kind of talk, is it an implicit threat of an obstruction impeachment article . Is that becoming somewhat toothless now, given how much evidence democrats seem to already have available . No, i dont think that its toothless at all. I think that that realtime intimidation was mindboggling. You know, and his attorney, even ken starr said, wow, that was not a good look. Fox news came out and said, this was a bad idea on behalf of the president. The idea here is that the president cannot stand powerful, smart women. They are the most intimidating group to him. And he cannot help himself but to Say Something that is nasty and derogatory because he is that fragile and that weak. We know that the walls are closing in on donald trump when he starts to talk about how this is really hurting his family. He never mentions his family, ever. So, the idea that now all of a sudden we should feel so bad for them. Im like, really . But heres the thing, is that Marie Yovanovitch, she was a beautiful, beautiful witness this past week. The fact that she walked out to applause just goes to show you just how well she played this week. Yeah. Okay. Real quick, rick, any word from republicans on the hearing and yovanovitchs testimony that youre hearing about . You know, i keep hearing, unfortunately, sadly, i keep hearing, you know, excuses in defense. And i keep saying, this just doesnt take a lot of common sense. The whole idea of giving Foreign Policy portfolio to Rudy Giuliani and the two clowns over those of the professionals is just striking. And you know, our ukrainian professional has a reputation around the world. Everybody sees this. Yeah. Well, and her testimony was remarkable backing that up as well. Rick tyler, bill press, Danielle Moodie mills, thank you thanks, alex. Testifying on capitol hill, a key white house insider. Up next, why his testimony may be so crucial to investigators about that military aid for ukraine. Estigators about that military aid for ukraine. Great riches will find you when Liberty Mutual customizes your Car Insurance, so you only pay for what you need. Wow. Thanks, zoltar. How can i ever repay you . Maybe you could free zoltar . Thanks, lady. Taxi only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. That could allow hackers devices into your home. Ys and like all doors, theyre safer when locked. Thats why you need xfinity xfi. With the xfi gateway, devices connected to your homes wifi are protected. Which helps keep people outside from accessing your passwords, credit cards and cameras. And people inside from accidentally visiting sites that arent secure. And if someone trys well let you know. Xfi advanced security. If its connected, its protected. Call, click, or visit a store today. Good day, everyone, from msnbc World Headquarters here in new york. Welcome to weekends with alex witt. Well bring you a live look at the capitol where a rare, saturday closeddoor deposition is under way right now. Office of budget and management official mark sandy breaking ranks to testify against investigators, all part of the impeachment inquiry into President Trump, which has now reached day 54, and the 24 hours leading up to right now have been filled with rapid and critical dwemtevelopments. Heres a snapshot of the latest. President trump is clearly rattled by both the credible and compelling testimony in todays impeachment hearing and the critical conviction of longtime associate roger stone, who was found guilty on all seven counts today of lying to congress and witness tampering in the mueller investigation. And we have breaking news tonight from the Embassy Staffer in ukraine who overheard the president s phone call with ambassador Gordon Sondland, and thats david holmes, who testified behind closed doors late today. That closeddoor deposition of david holmes that started this afternoon just ended about six hours after it started, going late into the night tonight. David holmes Opening Statement has been obtained by nbc news, and it has rocked washington. Just what exactly did mr. Holmes see, what did he hear, and what did he do . You know, that was the reason we called him in today. The president s defenders have repeatedly said that this is all hearsay, that none of the witnesses have actually heard the president s own voice. Now along comes this Career Foreign Service officer, a professional, david holmes, and he says, no, i did hear the president s own voice. Breaking news here, capitol hill moments ago. Thats mark sandy, he works at office of management and budget at the white house, making his way to a secure facility within the capitol for his testimony hes going to deliver to lawmakers behind closed doors today. Lets go now to the very latest developments of the day with our team of reporters and analysts, and well start with nbcs Garrett Haake whos at the capitol. Garrett, a couple questions about not only todays deposition and what we can expect, but i want to look back to yesterday, because you have some new reporting about those that were in attendance, staffers in attendance at that ukrainian cafe. How many were there in addition to holmes who testified yesterday behind closed doors . Reporter alex, according to holmes prepared Opening Statement, it was a table of four sitting in an outdoor restaurant in kyiv after Gordon Sondland had met with ukraines president , who then sat around and listened in on this phone call that sondland had with President Trump. So we knew about holmes already. He was the first witness who had spoken to ambassador taylor about this. He was deposed last night. But at least two other staffers were along for this lunch and were able to listen in on this phone call. Now, theres no word yet on if those additional staffers will be called to testify to back up the story that holmes told investigators, but its a pretty safe bet, given how thorough these committees have tried to be, calling in everyone who they think knows everything, that if indeed the details of the conversation he overheard are as damning as they were and remember, holmes told investigators that he heard sondland tell the president that, yes, the president of ukraine had agreed to do basically whatever he wanted in terms of investigations and reported back using an expletive that the president just really didnt give a you know what about ukraine at all, he was mostly focused on the investigation into the bidens those are explosive allegations. So yes, you would think that the other two people who sat at that table at an outdoor restaurant in a former soviet republic while somebody was talking on the phone with the president , will surely be called. Okay. We will wait to see what happens on that front. What are we expecting from mark sandy today sglirks getting a little bit of deal now out of the room in terms of sandys deposition. Im told that so far and remember, he started around 10 00 this morning this has been a fairly technical discussion about how this money, which is approved by congress, is actually moved through the federal bureaucracy and gets where its supposed to go, or in this case, how it didnt. You know, youd think that when Congress Votes to approve, in this case, 400 million, that Somebody Just writes a check. Well, its a little bit more complicated than that, and sandy is a career expert in the Budget Office and can explain to these lawmakers exactly how that money is supposed to move or what happens when its not. Some who heard it was held up questioned whether it was legal to have money that was set aside by congress for this purpose not be doled out. Sandy can speak in detail to that and help inform their conversation with the rest of the witnesses going forward. All right, garrett. Let us know about when you specifically hear something from that closeddoor testimony under way right now. We are also getting reaction from the president s defenders. Lets go to Mike Viqueira at the white house with that. Whats the latest, mike . Reporter alex, i think we can break down the republican defense of the president into a couple of different baskets. One is the process argument, that this has been unfair. Weve heard that all along when they were in those secret meetings down in the basement, at least those closed meetings. And even after they emerged and seemingly gave the republicans what they wanted in terms of public hearings, they still are talking about the process and their inability to question the witnesses and raise some of the points that they want to raise and bring some of the witnesses that they want to raise. Thats the first thing. The second thing is, they point out, hey, look, the military aid ended up going through and there was never an announcement by president zelensky that President Trump supposedly wanted for that investigation into briz urisma, into hunter b and into joe biden, so there was no crime, you cant be talking about bribery. And the president is taking another tack this morning, talking about something different, how great the economy is. Hes not known for subtlety in his tweets, so he got right to it this morning, saying dow hits 28,000, first time ever, highest ever, gee, pelosi and schiff even though he didnt spell it that way have a good idea. Lets impeach the president. If Something Like that happened, it will be the biggest depression and not recession. So again, the president hitting that hard, painting a gloomanddoom picture if congress impeaches him. Meanwhile, another staunch defender, hes become familiar to americans since last wednesday when the public hearings started the jacketless one, jim jordan from ohio had this to say about whats going on. I think, frankly, things are going well for the president. Theyve had three hearings, three witnesses with no firsthand knowledge. I say this all the time, but thats the thing about facts, they dont change. We have the call transcript. We have the two individuals on the call, President Trump, president zelensky, who said there was no linkage, no pressure, no pushing whatsoever, no linkage between any type of Security Assistance dollars and an investigation. We have the fact that the ukrainians didnt even know that the aid was held at the time of the call. And most importantly, of course, we have the fact that they didnt do anything to get the aid released. Reporter so, there is it is, another aspect of the republican defense, the hearsay argument, even though david holmes, that official that testified yesterday, that Foreign Service official, would seem to flatly contradict and rebut the hearsay argument. Alex . Ive just got to say that i laugh there at the president s tweet not because of the president s humor but the rather elementary, if not less than that nature of it. Anyway, thank you very much. Appreciate it, Mike Viqueira. The other big headline this hour, new details from the closeddoor testimony of david home ames, who says he overheard the president on a phone call asking the u. S. Ambassador to the eu, Gordon Sondland, about ukraine investigations. According to his Opening Statement obtained by nbc news, holmes said, i then heard President Trump ask, so hes going to do the investigation . Ambassador sondland replied that hes going to do it, adding that president zelensky will do, quote, anything you ask him to. Lawmakers on both sides of the aisle now weighing in on the impact of this testimony, what it may have on the impeachment inquiry going forward. In the statement that was released, there is a lot to be concerned about, particularly that more witnesses describe the president s obsession with investigating his political opponents. So now were going to evaluate whether that warrants bringing him in, in a public hearing. You have some guy who overheard a phone call. Im sure hell be a witness next week, well have him in an open hearing and get the chance to question him there. That testimony from david holmes could now be a central focus during next weeks public hearings, following what could be pivotal testimony from Gordon Sondland, who will likely be questioned on it. Peter baker is chief White House Correspondent with the New York Times and msnbc political analyst, sarah farris from politico and natasha bertrand, National Security correspondent at politico and an msnbc contributor. Lets start right now with mark sandys closeddoor testimony under way right now, natasha. What kind of information would sandy be able to provide that other witnesses could not . Yeah, so, this is really a blind spot for democrats that theyve been wanting to get to the bottom of, which is, how is the directive to withhold the military aid to ukraine delivered to omb officials . How involved, for example, was acting chief of staff Mick Mulvaney, who is the former head of omb . And what justification were they given for this hold on military aid . One of the biggest things, obviously, that the democrats want to find out over the course of this impeachment inquiry is a direct link between the president s desire to get ukraine to investigate the bidens in 2016 interference and the hold on military aid, which, of course, ukraine finds very important to fending off russia, with whom its in a war with right now in the eastern part of ukraine. So, thats really been kind of an ongoing mystery for democrats. They want to know exactly how this hold on aid came about, Mick Mulvaneys role, and of course, they want that smoking gun of the president having direct involvement in ordering this hold on aid. So, the white house, peter, did not want mark sandy there today. Of course, hes not the First Official to defy their request, but is there any unique concern about him testifying, given his position in omb and his boss . Yeah, it is interesting. He is, as you point out, there are three other budget officials, including acting director of the omb, who refused to come talk to congress. This is the one guy who has defied the wishes of the president , defied the wishes of the white house, to come down and give the testimony that the subpoena has ordered him to give. So, theyre obviously going to be concerned about anybody whos independent enough basically to go against the white house wishes. Its also interesting that his is the signature on the piece of paper that, in fact, suspended the aid, and it was signed on july 25th. Thats the exact same day, of course, that President Trump talked with president zelensky of ukraine and asked him to do us a favor. At the same time that president zelensky was mentioning his need for more aid. Now, we know that the order for the suspension of aid actually came at least a week earlier, july 18th. It was mentioned at a conference of officials. But the fact that his signatures on the document on the same day as the call, of course, will no doubt raise questions. And it may just be that, you know, theyre going to ask him, you know, other people have said that they didnt get an explanation for why this money was suspended, if hes able to shed any light on what was said as an explanation, that would be, of course, new information for the congress. But even if nothing else, he simply you know, he dots the is, crosses the ts, and brings together the whole story and fills in that space that they need to fill in. Im curious, peter, natasha mentioned Mick Mulvaney. And Mick Mulvaney acting chief of staff, but he came as director he came to that position as being the director of the omb and still oversees it. Is there a direct line, then, between mark sandy to Mick Mulvaney . Yeah, in fact, i mean, Mick Mulvaney technically is still the director of the office of management and budget. So in fact, mark sandy, in theory, works for him. He would work for him even as white house chief of staff, but theres a more direct connection, as you point out. And Mick Mulvaney is at the center of this. As natasha said, we really would like to understand his role in this better. Hes the one who conveyed the order from the president to suspend the aid. Hes the one who came out and told us in a Briefing Room News Conference that, in fact, the aid suspension was tied directly to whether or not ukraine investigated this Conspiracy Theory about 2016, then later tried to take it back. Hes still defying a subpoena from the house. He went to court trying to get out of testifying and then had to back off. But so far, hes not giving his testimony in the house, is sort of looking for other ways of getting at that information. What are you hearing, sarah, in terms of the expectations, what democrats want to hear from him . What theyre looking for from mark sandy is, as natasha said, this blind spot, that this is really the only part of this monthslong saga between President Trump and the ukrainian president that they dont have completely figured out. Democrats feel that they have so many links, they have direct evidence, they have all of these documents that prove that the president was looking for these investigations, that he was looking to hold up this aid. What they dont have is how and when the aid was held up. And i think democrats are looking for this testimony to help scramble a republican defense of trump. The republicans have been saying that the president was not directly involved in this decision. Theyve been trying to say he was more hands off. But if they can get the link between what the office of management and budget was doing and the president himself or his inner circle, this could be a really, really key moment. And republicans, weve already seen them really struggle to put forward a defense, a substantive defense. Theyve been focused much more on process. So, if mark sandy can, indeed, deliver the testimony that democrats want, especially if he is willing to go in open session, its just going to be so much harder for the republicans to try to push back against that. Well, add to that david holmes testimony, and it was a pretty dramatic turn of events this week with his testimony yesterday. How might his account of the conversation between Gordon Sondland and the president change the dynamic of the impeachment probe . Do you see a smoking gun element to it . Yeah, so, the argument that republicans have been making that all of the witnesses so far have been hearsay witnesses, that they never heard anything that the president said firsthand, in the first instance never really seems sustainable, because next week were going to hear from a whole host of white house officials and diplomats who had direct contact with the president within this context of the ukraine scandal. So for example, Gordon Sondland, fiona hill, former nsc official tim morrison, all of these people who were directly involved in speaking to the president and his aides about ukraine policy. But this, obviously, adds a new layer, because david holmes actually heard the president speaking on the phone with Gordon Sondland, saying that he wanted these investigations to be delivered. That, obviously, is going to be bolstered, if the democrats can get these other people that were at the table, two other officials, embassy officials, who were at the table listening to this call, to come in and testify. But just the fact that you have lets put aside for a second also the massive Security Breach that this was for Gordon Sondland to just be talking on a cell phone to the president of the United States in a kiev cafe. That is going to add, obviously, a significant, new layer to the democrats case here. Yeah, yeah. Sondland testifies wednesday, if he indeed shows up. But im curious, peter, as you take a listen to democratic congressman Gerry Connolly and what he told me last hour, lets talk afterwards about why sondland may be in a bit of a pinch here. Well, i think ambassador sondland has a problem. Hes already amended his earlier testimony before the committee of inquiry in closed deposition because subsequent witnesses, you know, frankly, contradicted parts of his testimony. In this case, it would be very difficult for ambassador sondland to deny what happened in a public place that was, you know, witnessed. And so, hes going to have some explaining to do. And im sure, peter, you heard Garrett Haake reporting that nbc news is reporting that there was a table of four. One of them was Gordon Sondland. One of them was david holmes. And there were two other staffers there. So, what does this mean for this testimony and this particular story line . Yeah, i think Gordon Sondland received a pretty stark warning yesterday, and that happened actually just a few hundred yards from the capitol in a courthouse just across the street, in effect, where roger stone was convicted on seven counts of lying and obstructing the very same house Intelligence Committee that now Gordon Sondland will be testifying to next week. The consequences of not telling the full truth, the consequences of being caught out in an inaccuracy or in fact, deception, are steep and they are real. And i think anybody who is testifying in these days to come got a real reminder of that on friday, because in fact, roger stone now faces potentially decades in prison under these seven counts, and that could happen to anybody whos caught out. So, Gordon Sondlands got a chance on wednesday to affix his testimony, to amend his testimony, to bring it up to speed and reconcile it with those of other witnesses and try to get himself out of trouble. And if he doesnt, then theres a real consequence to be paid. Sarah, do you think sondlands testimony will be a smoking gun, or at least have that element to it . Well, whats notable about sondland coming in and hes one of the only political appointees that we will hear from. And democrats are hoping that they can bring him in and someone who was once extremely loyal to the president he was, of course, a large donor to the campaign. But when he released his revised testimony last week, there was speculation that perhaps he is questioning his loyalty to the president. Perhaps he is willing to go beyond what the president has said. Thats going to be really crucial if they are able to get him to change his mind publicly, if theyre able to get him to say that he made a mistake, that he, you know, now hes saying he remembers this new conversation he hadnt remembered before. But democrats are really hoping that this could be the moment where he abandons the president. I mean, if he is able to do that in a hearing room, you know, back to back theres diplomats on either side of that, on tuesday and on thursday i mean, this could just be a really, really powerful moment, and it could have the moment that the public actually tunes in, because right now democrats are a little worried that theyre not quite breaking through, that people see two weeks of testimony and they might not be tuning in for every one of these key moments. I dont know. I think its a buckleup situation this coming week. Anyway, peter and sarah and natasha, thank you guys all so much. Appreciate it. So, the lengths that House Republicans are going to defend the president. What are democrats doing to counter act the gop attacks . Thats next. Ter act the gop att . Thats next. Its tough to quit smoking cold turkey. So chantix can help you quit slow turkey. Along with support, chantix is proven to help you quit. With chantix you can keep smoking at first and ease into quitting. 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Current eligible nongm owners and lessees get 20 below msrp on most of these 2019 buick models. Breaking news this hour, with a live look at capitol hill, where a rare saturday closeddoor deposition is under way right now. Office of management and budget mark sandy is testifying for lawmakers as part of the impeachment into the president , the first omb official to break ranks and testify for investigators in the inquiry. Joining me now, pennsylvania representative madeleine dean, democratic member of the judiciary and Financial Services committee. Welcome back, maam, to the broadcast. Thank you. Im curious what your colleagues are looking for in this closeddoor testimony under way right now from mark sandy. What are the blanks do you think he can help fill in about the trump ukraine situation . Well, i would assume it has to do with the withholding of aid. You know that it was, we believe Mick Mulvaney who was part of the blocking of the aid. He comes from the office of management and budget. And so, i have not heard the line of questions, nor any of the testimony. It is a closeddoor deposition, but i believe that mr. Sandy will be able to perhaps fill in the blanks on who ordered the withholding of aid and how that was done. Mmhmm. As we look at yesterdays closeddoor testimony from the Embassy Staffer david holmes, who overheard the president s phone call with ambassador Gordon Sondland. And according to his Opening Statement obtained by nbc news, holmes said, i then heard President Trump ask, so hes going to do the investigation . Ambassador sondland replied that hes going to do it, adding that president zelensky will do anything that you ask him to do. How damaging overall was holmes testimony . And we keep asking this question, but does it have the potential, at least, to be a smoking gun coming from a firsthand source . Well, as you know, one of the feckless arguments that the minority party, the republicans, have put forward is there is no firsthand witness of this. Well, now we have that. And of course, it was ambassador taylor who on wednesday revealed the story of the staffer, mr. Holmes. It is extraordinarily damning evidence that is piling up that indicates, that points directly to the president , that the president wanted, demanded the extortion of investigations over his political opponent for his own personal political gain fro democracy under constant occupation by russia, our foe. What the president has done by the record of the call and then all of this mounting, damning evidence from career diplomats, is he put himself above the law, he put himself above our National Security and above global security, because of course, by weakening ukraine, you are strengthening russia, and that puts the world at risk. That puts europe at risk. The republicans, as you know, have pretty much stuck to the narrative that the witnesses this week are giving information thats just hearsay. Lets take a listen to some republican lawmakers during wednesdays hearing. Heres that. Officials alarm at the president s actions was typically based on secondhand, thirdhand, and even fourthhand rumors and innuendo. Weve got six people having four conversations in one sentence, and you just told me this is where you got your clear understanding. Well, were not in a court, gentlemen. And if we were, the sixth amendment would apply, and so would rules on hearsay and opinion. And most of your two testimonies would not be admissible whatsoever. However, were talking about david holmes testimony. That is not hearsay. It is first person. Does that wipe out that defense, not to mention that there may be two others that investigators are going to go after who were sitting at that table as well, according to nbc news reporting . It certainly wipes out that defense, but we didnt even need mr. Holmes. The other thing that i think this reveals is that the republicans have nothing to offer to exculpate this president. The president has no evidence to put forward to say no, this never happened, i never demanded investigations, i never withheld the money, i never wanted to get dirt on joe biden. His own record of the call shows that. It reveals the extraordinary weakness of the hand of the republicans. Remember, this is about upholding the rule of law, upholding the constitution. And so, you saw part of the cross examination of ambassador taylor by the attorney for the Republican Party. And when he was digging into the fact that he said theres a really irregular backchannel diplomacy going on here led by giuliani, he tried to the counsel went with not that it was irregular, he said, well, it wasnt outlandish, was it . Trying to put a farout modifier on it. That is a desperate set of questions and a desperate, feckless cross examination of these incredibly credible witnesses like mr. Taylor, mr. Kent, and ambassador yovanovitch. Yep, indeed. And it is extraordinary what david holmes said in his opening testimony again, which nbc news is poring over with all of the details. I want to ask you about your position on the judiciary committee, which would be responsible for drawing up articles of impeachment. How does that process work . Well, you did see that we passed resolution, House Resolution 660, laying out process. So, what i fully expect is whats laid out in there. The Intelligence Committee will complete its work. It will draft and transmit a report of that work, giving us the evidence that they have found. They transmit it to judiciary. It is our job to put that evidence up with the law in terms of determining what, if any, articles of impeachment to draft. The other committees of oversight had the exact same opportunity to report to us anything that they believe we should know as we deliberate and draft proposed articles of impeachment. So, i have to tell you, i couldnt be prouder of adam schiff and every member of that committee. You know that they are in hearing testimony today. When we were back in district doing work for our communities, they stayed back and have been tirelessly hearing extraordinary, mounting, damning testimony against the president who is in violation of his oath of office. Pennsylvania democratic representative madeleine dean. Always good to see you. Thank you so much for joining me. Thank you, alex. A warning for democrats. President obamas words of caution for the 2020 progressives and why he says the large field of candidates might be a good thing. Rge field of ca be a good thing. Tmobiles newest most powerful signal is here. Experience it with the amazing, new iphone 11. 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A location to destress. An activity to enjoy. Or the name of someone to talk to. To create a plan that works for you, visit cigna. Com mystressplan. Cigna. Together, all the way. New insight into gop defense after week one of open impeachment hearings. House intel Committee Member jim jordan telling reporters this just a short time ago. We have the call transcript. We have the two individuals on the call, President Trump, president zelensky, who said there was no linkage, no pressure, no pushing whatsoever, no linkage between any type of Security Assistance dollars and an investigation. We have the fact that the ukrainians didnt even know that the aid was held at the time of the call. And most importantly, of course, we have the fact that they didnt do anything to get the aid released. Joining me now, Political Columnist amy holmes, former speechwriter for bill frist and michelle bernard, president and ceo of the Bernard Center for women, politics, and public policy. Ladies, welcome to you both. Amy, you first here. Havent democrats dismantled all of those defenses that congressman jordan listed . Well, i wouldnt agree with that, since in point of fact, ukraine did not engage in an investigation of former Vice President joe biden or his son hunter biden and the military aid was released, which is sort of the crux of the accusations against President Trump at the moment. And we saw that coming out in the hearings this week. I think the bottom line here is that democrats have overreached when it comes to the impeachment process, which you know, presumably, they hope would lead to the removal of President Trump from office. Had they instead gone down the censure path, i think, alex, they would have gotten a lot of republican buyin, actually, and this wouldnt be such a partisan process. Im curious, michelle, what do you think it says that republicans are still, after all of the testimony weve heard so far, theyre still trying to prop up the fact that aid was released as that being the most important fact in their favor . Yeah, i think its a red herring, and quite frankly, it looks pretty ridiculous and asinine, quite frankly, i think, regardless of which side of the aisle someone might find them self politically speaking. I think the testimony we have seen this week has been very, very damning, and it looks like many members of the Republican Party are pulling at straws trying to find anything that they can hold onto to defend the president. Marie yovanovitchs testimony yesterday was really absolutely ama amazing, and then coming on the heels of the two other gentlemen that testified earlier this week, youve got to kind of scratch your head and say to yourself, exactly what is it that republicans are trying to cover up on behalf of the president and where do they go from here . Yeah, bill taylor, george kent. Your point is well taken. There is also significant, new testimony, amy, from yesterdays closeddoor deposition with the u. S. Embassy official, david holmes, who overheard a phone call by the president no relation, by the way. Good point. There you go. Anyway, but he heard that phone call between the president and Eu Ambassador, Gordon Sondland. Do you think his firsthand not hearsay knowledge of this phone call and description of it, might that turn out to be a smoking gun for democrats . Well, i dont know if its going to be the smoking gun that theyre hoping for in terms of having President Trump removed from office. Lets remember, thats what the impeachment process is supposed to be about. Its not just supposed to be a partisan going after a political opponent. It goes to the United States senate. Do i think that we might hear u. S. Senators, republican senators lean on this as a way to sort of spank President Trump for what they might consider to be inappropriate behavior when it comes to ukraine . Yes. Do i think it will lead to President Trump being removed from office . No. What about the democrats and republicans, michelle, who are clashing during yesterdays open hearing with the former Ukraine Ambassador, Marie Yovanovitch . In fact, lets watch one of those moments. Here it is. Yield to you, ms. Stefanik. Thank you, mr. Nunes. Ambassador yovanovitch gentlewoman will suspend thank you for being here today. What is the interruption for this time . It is our time. The gentlewoman will suspend. Youre not recognized. Mr. Nunes, you are not counsel i just recognized. Under the House Resolution 660, youre not allowed to yield time except back to the chairman he yielded time to a member of congress. No, thats not accurate. That is accurate. Whats going on here . Did republicans go into the hearing, are they trying to obfuscate . Are they trying to create moments like this . And if so, whats the goal. Talk about mustsee tv, alex. I absolutely was riveted yesterday, better than any Television Program we ever saw donald trump in prior to him joining, becoming a member of the White House Club of president s. It looked like a lot of gam gamesshgame gamesmanship. As you know, stefanik is the only woman on the house Intel Committee. I kind of was offended by it, because it looked like attempts by the Republican Party to pit two women against each other. Lets have a, quote unquote, cat fight on National Television yesterday. I thought the way adam schiff handled it was absolutely brilliant. The republicans went in knowing the rules. Now, when the republicans are in charge, they want to follow the rules. When theyre not in charge, they dont want to follow the rules. Thats what happened yesterday. It was political theater. It was for viewers who were watching another network. It was for the president , political theater for the president so that they could go in feeling that they were giving the appearance to the president that they are doing everything that they could to defend him, but they knew the rules going in. Nunes did not have the ability to yield his team to stefanik, and it was pretty pitiful theater, if i say so myself. Before i let you ladies go, i do want to go into what the president , as in president obama, said in remarks last night at a democratic donor event, in which he warned 2020 candidates against going too far left. And he also said, i dont think we should be diluted into thinking that the resistance to certain approaches to things is simply because voters havent heard a bold enough proposal, and if they hear something as bold as possible, then immediately thats going to activate them. Amy, first, how do you interpret that . I take that as a direct shot at Elizabeth Warren and that she has moved too far left to the party. Weve heard grummling from democrats in different reports, including from wall street, which shes been campaigning against. Lloyd blanken fine just came out against her, and hes usually a very big democratic supporter. I think president obama is giving democrats some very good, excuse me, very good political advice, and he is, after all, a twotime, twiceelected president of the United States. I think that i would take it. Yeah. What do you think, michelle, real quick, if you can wrap that up . You know, i agree with amy wholeheartedly, that obama won twice. Hes pulling the party back centrally. I dont take it as a direct hit against Elizabeth Warren, but i do think that president obama understands that the country is more and more independent, more and more people selfidentify as independen independents. They are tired at times of both political parties. And hes saying, rein it in, because we are a nation that is more in the central than we are far left or far right. All right. Michelle bernard, amy holmes, thank you, ladies, for the conversation. Thank you. Thank you. The story behind the story of what happened in ukraine. Were going to talk about all this has to do with russia and the president s relationship with Vladimir Putin, next. With Vladimir Putin, next. Needles. Essential for the sea urchin, but maybe not for people with rheumatoid arthritis. Because there are options. Like an unjection™. Xeljanz xr, a oncedaily pill for adults with moderate to severe ra for whom methotrexate did not work well enough. 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[ applause and band playing ] only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. New revelations in the impeachment drama. David holmes, a Career Foreign Service officer, telling investigators friday he overheard a cell phone call between the president and Eu Ambassador Gordon Sondland in which the president asked sondland if ukraine would investigate the bidens. Joining me now, craig unger, author of house of trump, house the putin the untold story of donald trump and the russian mafia, and larry pfiefer, former cia chief of staff during the george w. Bush administration and former senior director of the white house situation room under president obama. Gentlemen, with a welcome to you both. So, about that phone call, sondland in a kiev restaurant talking to the president of the United States, larry. I know youre quoted in the Washington Post as saying the security ramifications are insane, using an open cell phone to communicate with the president of the United States. Explain why its insane. Well, youre sitting in an open restaurant weve now learned, actually out on the terrace of an open restaurant, surrounded by individuals, none of whom you can be certain arent on the russian payroll, arent russian agents. Theres the potential for electronic targeting of these individuals. And i guarantee you, you know, ambassador sondland and members of the u. S. Delegation to kiev are all targets of the russian intelligence service, so theres targeting that could be done locally, then theres the signals intelligence architecture of the soviet union im sorry, of russia, that would also be listening in on these calls. Absolutely wired. President s are supposed to use secure phone lines all the time, right . They should, if theyre conducting the governments business. You know, obviously, the president can have his own phone maybe for a select group of local Close Friends that he wants to talk about sports with, but if hes going to be conducting the business of the United States, its in his best interests, its in the best interests of a. Mbassador sondlad and in the best interests of our delegations to the embassy to do that. Take that five minutes to go to the embassy and go into a secure room and make the call. Yeah. So, craig, these concerns here, how might russia or any other bad actor, in fact, use information gathered on a call like this to try to hurt the United States . Right, well, just imagine if david holmes hadnt heard about this, hadnt overheard the conversation. In that case, russia would have the information and we wouldnt. And it seems that the president was really in the process of committing what may well have been an impeachable act. So, we see i mean, they could hold that against him. Thats kompromat of sorts. And this also seems to be Standard Operating Procedure for this administration. When you look at the way sondland behaved, hes putting it on speakerphone so that everyone can hear, as if hes boasting, look, im in touch with the president , i am speaking to the president of the United States, and youre not. And all the more serious, professional ambassadors like taylor and yovanovitch are not part of that. Theyve been cast aside. Yeah. I just want to be clear, i dont think it was on speakerphone, but i think this president was speaking so loudly that sondland had pulled phone away from him, which may get the sense of a speakerphone. But i want to ask craig, with yovanovitch and her testimony, saying that russia stood to be the biggest beneficiary of the trump administrations dealings in ukraine. How so . Well, absolutely. Putin wants to restore the russian empire the way it was during the soviet union. The most important single part of that is ukraine. There was no the soviet union was not an empire until ukraine was part of it. And when ukraine left, it ceased to become an empire. So, after the end of the cold war, one by one, a lot of the european states fled from the embrace of russia and joined nato. Now nato is in disrepair completely, and thats been putins top priority, and donald trump is helping him do that. Last question to you, larry. What do you think Vladimir Putin is taking from the utter silence of mike pompeo, of all of his foreign diplomats . Hes not weighing in at all on this. Well, the fact that pompeo is not out defending the men and women of the state Department Just eats away at their credibility anywhere theyre serving around the globe. That then erodes americas ability to push forward our agenda, and that only feeds into Vladimir Putins agenda. And i would offer that this isnt just pompeo whos at fault, but its the leadership across the board in our National Security establishment. Its our military leadership, our Defense Department leadership, our intelligence leadership. They should be making public statements in support of the men and women who are out there on the front lines doing americas job. Larry pfeiffer and craig unger, gentlemen, thank you so much. Thank you. Worse than watergate . Why some democrats say that evidence against the current president is, indeed, stronger. T esprident is, indeed, stronger woman 1 oc this is my body of proof. Man 1 vo proof of less joint pain and clearer skin. Man 2 vo proof that i can fight psoriatic arthritis. Woman 2 vo . With humira. Woman 3 vo humira targets and blocks a specific source of inflammation that contributes to both joint and skin symptoms. Its proven to help relieve pain, stop further irreversible joint damage, and clear skin in many adults. Humira is the number one prescribed biologic for psoriatic arthritis. Avo humira can lower your ability to fight infections. 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One of the things we didnt know about nixon during watergate hearings in our impeachment effort was that nixon stymied the paris peace talks as a result of that thousands of americans died as well as untold numbers of vietnamese. If we add that into mix, that gets to be a pretty big horrible. So i think both of them, though basically are seeing that their power as president can be used for whatever personal gain they need to use it for. Watergate and the coverup was about winning the 1972 president ial reelection at any cost. What were seeing now i call it ukrainegate is President Trump trying to win his 2020 reelection at any cost, but thats where the constitution steps in and the rule of law. The president cant use his powers to try to bully a foreign country or do anything else to affect, to interfere with the actual conduct of an election in the United States. So lets play some of nixons recordings. Take a listen to this. The investigation, were confident that you can see fbi is not under control of exactly under control, and they have their investigation is now leading into productive areas. The way you handle this now is for us to have walters call and just say, stay the hell out of this. We just deal with this have it go further. Watching your face, i feel like ive heard this all before. Certainly have. Somebody who prosecuted watergate how do you compare evidence against trump top what you had in watergate . That last tape you played was the smoking gun that basically turned republicans against nixon and led to his resignation some five or six days after that tape came out. That was the one hes basically directing haldeman, his chief aide, to call the cia to get the cia to get the fbi to lay off their investigation fror nationl security reasons. That was pretty much the end of the game for nixon. Now, here, i mean, weve got a little bit of a cliffhanger. We start off with a tape, a smoking gun with donald trump trying to get the Ukrainian Government to investigate the bidens kind of dangling out there the notion about the monies that are there. Does it very obliquely. As you get closer and closer you heard the holmes testimony came out yesterday, testimony coming out from the omb, Lieutenant Colonel vindman who will testify next week. Were finding were getting more and more testimony that is basically boxing the republicans into a corner without any real defense. Building a narrative, if you will. Elizabeth, relative to david holmes testimony, might that be a smoking gun, something that nick is referring to as well . The fact he said i heard President Trump speaking so loudly had he had to pull it way from his ear allowing everyone to hear what the president was saying . First, we didnt need the smoking gun tape to have 30 of republicans supporting us. The smoking meant all the republicans supported us. So we had a separaty strong case before that. It partly depends on what the president said, but we have so much information that the president himself has orchestrated this whole thing just the way nixon orchestrated the coverup, as nick pointed out. It was nixon who gave the order to shut down the fbi investigation and based on false information. We see trump obsessed in the same way with the investigations. Hes not letting somebody else handle this. Hes controlling the whole thing, and the investigation is showing it. Can i get a yes or no if vindman confirms that phone call over for President Trump in this regard . Not a yes. Yes from my standpoint for sure but certainly ought to be. If i were on that committee id be looking at Gordon Sondlands cell phone right now looking at what conversation he had with donald trump trying to determine what was said in those calls. If mr. Sondland doesnt come forward and fess up what to actually happened hes going the way of roger stone. Nick ackerman, elizabeth holtzman, thank you so much. Closeddoor testimony under way at the top of the hour how a senior white house official could hold and important piece of the impeachment puzzle. Moments ago adam schiff delivered a key line. Kendis has that, next. There is nothing more dangerous than an unethical president who believes that he is above the law. Above the lad then gimme your foot. Handsfree sliding doors, stow n go® seats. Can your car do this . Man, yall getting a hook up and you dont even work here. Dont act like im not doing yall a favor. Yall should be singing my praises. Pacificaaaaa purchase and get 5,361 below msrp plus 0 financing for 60 months on the 2019 pacifica limited. Financing for 60 months on the 2019 tmobiles newest most powerful signal is here. Experience it with the amazing, new iphone 11. And right now, tmobile has the best deal on iphone. Get 4 lines of unlimited with 4 iphone 11 included for only 35 a line. honk i hear you sister. Thats why im partnering with cigna to remind you to go in for your annual checkup, and be open with your doctor about anything you feel physically and emotionally. But now cigna has a plan that can help everyone see stress differently. Just find a period of time to unwind. A location to destress. An activity to enjoy. Or the name of someone to talk to. To create a plan that works for you, visit cigna. Com mystressplan. Cigna. Together, all the way. Okay. Im late. The wrap of this show. Pretty good lately. You have to admit it, Kendis Gibson. A lot to get to. You have. A busy saturday ahead. Alex, maunk. Im Kendis Gibson right here at msnbc World Headquarters in new york. Following a lot of major developments right now on several fronts. On capitol hill another rare saturday session. House lawmakers back behind closed doors