Happen here. We keep hearing about 500 Police Officers there, and everyone with whom ive spoken this last half hour has said it seems to be in control at this point. Talk about what happened then and what is happening today and the difference, and how Police Departments go about making that difference. Right, alex, a great question. Well, theres a couple of big differences. One is the size of the force. The charlottesville force is much smaller, maybe 130, 150 officers. Of course they were backed up by the Virginia State police. Boston pd, 2,000, sometimes up to 2500. I dont know the current number. And much more used to dealing with large mass gatherings, as most big city departments are. But for charlottesville as well, different problems. 3 militia men walking up, any government extremist with assault rifles lining the avenue. Everybody with sticks, disguised as signs, helmets, mace, shields ready for battle. Boston, you cant carry assault rifles to a rally. The gun laws are much too strict. And they have banned sticks, bottles, mace, et cetera, so they can at least keep it down. Its not that some protesters cant sneak it in, but they are keeping it down, so youve got two different atmosphere to start with. Now, charlottesville pd was criticized a lot for not having enough officers there. I think they had enough officers there. Some of their tactics im sure you know they want to improve. Too many officers in soft clothes. When the klan comes to town and theyre ready to battle, theres no reason you dont have your officers in helmets and vests and tactical gear. The officers need to be suited up. They need to be suited up. Jim, common sense tells you that. What youre saying, i feel like we need to put an exclamation point behind that. Of course that makes sense. What would have gone i mean what was wrong with Charlottesville Police department ideology to not have that sort of a presence, everybody standing there, riot gear, fully prepared for what might come . Well, you know, when youre in the police and youre in Law Enforcement as long as i have, no matter what you do youre going to get severely criticized. So if youre out there in your tactical gear, theres going to be people saying theyre militarized police and theyre trying to start a problem. If you have enough people, a good way to do it is like cleveland did during the convention up there. A lot of soft officers, regular patrol division, bike officers, motor cops in regular uniforms. But close by, enough of a Tactical Force to move in immediately. You cant what charlottesville did, i think, is they wanted to go have those officers go change into tactical gear. That takes even at the best time 30 minutes. You dont have 30 minutes. So if you want to put soft officers out, which sometimes is a good strategy, i mean soft clothes, then you have to immediately have the force half a block away thats geared up to move in. Put the thin blue line in, alex, is what we didnt see in charlottesville. The thin blue line between the demonstrators. But i think people are very critical of charlottesville. Some of it is justified and some of it is not. Boston is a larger force, used to larger demonstrations and a completely different atmosphere, especially with the guns. Right. So theyre going to have more control. And also, youve got look at this, 20,000 people. What a statement for america that right now are all peaceful. Now, there could be a very few black bloc or antifa people who want to commit violence, but as far as being antifascist, all of america was antifascist in world war ii. Everybody in america was antifascist so thats not a bad label to be defense fascism or neonaziism. But its how you behave out there today. This is so commendable and i think so powerful right now. Can you see, jim, what was happening . I dont know if my director, will, can put that back up there left of screen there. We were talking with evan allen from the boston globe whos at one of these checkpoints and evan was telling us people are being let in literally one by one to this area. When you look at 20,000 people, obviously not everybody is going to get into the actual rally itself unless things get out of control. But they are searching people, they are she said they are making sure people turn out their pockets. You cant bring back packs. Theres nothing. Im looking at the boston pd release for the kinds of things that are prohibited. Firearms, knives, weapons, sharp on jekts, shields, fireworks, popup tents, canopies, cans, glass containers. Premixed beverages, wagons, pull carts, coolers. The list goes on and on and on. So they want nobody in this area with anybody other than their person and their clothing, that is it. So to your point, it will hopefully make a considerable difference should things escalate into actually greater than war of words. Right, alex, exactly. Sometimes we have state legislatures that work against the police. You know, they enact laws that are hard for the police. Open carry laws. A line of militia standing there with assault rifles. You know, we need to rethink this in america. Thats not a good idea. If these rallies and this atmosphere of neonaziism continues, i mean its been around a long time but now its strong and in the open. We could have a devastatingly vulgar event with all those guns there. All right, jim cavanaugh, thank you very much for being at the ready for us today as we watch things and as we listen to things just a bit, everybody, you can see people are certainly heated. That has been the description all along throughout this day. Lots of passion on both sides. Well take another short break here on msnbc and be right back for more coverage from boston and beyond. Stay with us. Hey, is this our turn . Honey. Our turn . Yeah, we go left right here. woman vo Great Adventures are still out there. Well find them in our Subaru Outback. avo love. Its what makes a subaru, a subaru. Get 0 apr financing for 63 months on all new 2017 Subaru Outback models. Now through august 31. When you think of saving money, what comes to mind . Your next getaway . Connecting with family and friends . A big night out . Or maybe your everyday shopping. Whatever it is, aarp member advantages can help save you time and money along the way. So when you get there, you can enjoy it all the more. For less. Surround yourself with savings at aarpadvantages. Com how to win at business. Step one point decisively with the arm of your glasses. Abracadabra. The stage is yours. Step two choose la quinta. The only hotel where you can redeem loyalty points for a free nightinstantly and win at business. 40 million americans are waking up to a gillette shave. And at our factory in boston, 1,200 workers are starting their day building on over a hundred years of heritage, craftsmanship and innovation. Today were bringing you americas number one shave at lower prices every day. Putting money back in the pockets of millions of americans. As one of those workers, im proud to bring you gillette quality for less, because nobody can beat the men and women of gillette. Gillette the best a man can get. Approaching 40 past the hour. I want to give you an aerial look of things in boston. Just because theres some empty space on that street does not mean things have calmed down at all. There are a number of antiprotesters, counterprotesters that are making their way to the Boston Commons where the free speech rally is scheduled to be held. It is a very slow process because they are massive in number. There is estimated to be upwards of 20,000 people in the counterprotest, which will definitely dwarf those that have been scheduled for the free speech rally, again in Boston Commons. I see my colleague, garrett hague. Garrett haake. Reporter im here. All right, so where are you now relative to the Boston Commons . Are you guys still on the move . Reporter we are on the move. Were slowed down. Were at one of those choke points here, crossing over the highway. I think were probably a few blocks away. I can see the helicopter in the distance up ahead, so were closing in on it, alex, one of the things i want to mention as i was listening to some of the coverage here. If you dont mind me taking the baton for a second. Sure. Reporter just the variety of different causes represented out here. The jumping off point for all of this was this free speech rally that people wanted to protest against, equating it to a hate speech. But talking to people out here that is not the only issue people are marching for. Weve seen the black lives matter movement, rights for trans individuals. Ive seen a ton of clergy from every possible creed out here represented. So a lot of folks seem to have taken this singular event as an opportunity to come out here and unite around all these different diverse sort of issues that they feel like arent being properly addressed or arent being properly paid attention to in particular by the folks back in d. C. So it really is an interesting group, particularly where we are now in the back half of the protest. These are folks by and large folks who do not come out and do this every saturday. They felt particularly motivated by the events of the last week or what they have seen on television or read about charlottesville and the state of the country. To come out, drop their kids off at soccer practice or camp and come be a part of this. Some of the kids are out here too. I think that bears mentioning. While we have this one precipitating event that they are officially counterprotesting, theres a lot of different issues and viewpoints being represented out here today. What kind of day is it weatherwise . We can see the sun out. But if its a terribly hot day and humid, i know you laugh but a couple of hours of standing outside in that as youre not able to move around like you wanted to freely, that can really get people a little bit more anxious, shall we say. So whats it like out there . Reporter absolutely. No, i only laugh because i was certain youd see the sweat stains all over my shirt. What started out as an overcast cool if a little bit humid day out here is turning out to be quite warm and quite sunny. I think the heat and humidity are as much of a danger as are any of the other issues weve been talking about. But again, to the Community Spirit of this, weve been passing a bunch of small businesses, restaurants and things like that. A lot of folks outside handing out free waters, trying to make sure people stay cool. Absolutely, i think it is a concern youll have people on their feet all day long. Were again in the march. Were not marching right now. We are completely stopped as we approach Boston Common so a lot of people out here chanting, singing, carrying signs and marching in the heat. So its definitely a concern. Well, lets hope that youre close enough that those checkpoints through which people are passing very slowly after pretty thorough inspections is whats slowing you down right now. My very cool freiend, garrett haake, didnt notice a thing, you look great. Well see you a little later as well. For all, a short break and well be back and speak with a professor at yale about the definition of confederate statues, their meaning in Todays Society so stay with us here on msnbc live. My experience with usaa has been excellent. They always refer to me as master sergeant. They really appreciate the military family, and it really shows. Weve got auto insurance, homeowners insurance. Had an accident with a vehicle, i actually called usaa before we called the police. Usaa was there handson very quick very prompt. I feel like were being handled as people that actually have a genuine need. Were the webber family and we are usaa members for life. Usaa, get your insurance quote today. This timyou haveis turn. 4. 3 minutes to yourself. This calls for a taste of cheesecake. New philadelphia cheesecake cups. Rich, creamy cheesecake with real strawberries. Find them with the refrigerated desserts. When heartburn hits fight back fast with new tums chewy bites. Fast relief in every bite. Crunchy outside. Chewy inside. Tum tum tum tum new tums chewy bites. 47 past the hour, everyone. Giving you a live look at Boston Common there to your right. You see a pretty heavy Police Presence just out of the screen right now but folks are walking it looks like almost single file as they make their way into the Boston Commons, which is a remarkable thing considering there are 20,000 or so ringing that area or at least on their way there to take part in a kou counterprotest as a result of the free speech rally scheduled inside the Boston Common. The aerial view gives you an idea of how things look on this hot and somewhat steamy day in boston. Well cover all of this, stay on it and bring you live pictures as well. I want to have a conversation right now about a new poll that shows that a majority of americans are in favor of confederate statues. 62 saying statues of leaders of the confederacy should remain as historical symbols. 27 say they should get them out of here. Lets bring in john fabian witt. Not a relative of mine. John, the debate thats under way right now, should it be about statues . Do they have a place in our society, whether theyre of historical significance, they could be teaching moments, or should we be talking about the real cause of the civil war and why monuments to confederate leaders are offensive to many in the first place . Well, statues are really important ways in which we communicate as a collective, as a community, whats important to us and what we celebrate, what we commemorate and how we remember. So its not surprising that were living with live history right now to me or to historians around the country, i think. Okay. So look, weve seen whats happened in charlottesville and this is not the first time that there have been heightened emotions surrounding statues of the confederacy or other symbols that elicit tremendous emotion on both sides. Do they belong in public places, john . Is there a better place for them where historians like yourself, where professors like yourself, where people can learn more about them without using them as rallying cries . Well, there are a lot of hard judgments to make. I think individual communities are going to make their judgments on their own. Theres some Guiding Principles that we can think about, though, for making those judgments. We can remember our history without celebrating white supremacy. We can ask about what the person honored stands for, what their legacies are. We can ask why the monument was put up in the first place. We can ask whether the person was out of step in his or her time. There are a lot of questions that we can ask and i think local communities will start asking those questions and those will produce really good conversations, i hope. Heres a timing conversation here. The Southern Poverty Law Center made a timeline of when confederacy monuments were dedicated. The most notable spike came in the early 1900s and 1920. Thats when the night riders were literally chasing black families out of almost 200 american cities, and again the spike in the 1960s during the civil rights movement. Civil war ended in 1865. What does that tell you . Well, it tells us that many of the confederate monuments were part of the building of the jim crow regime of segregation in the american south. That period of 1910, 1920 is a period of lynchings, public spectacle lynchings, huge amounts of violence towards africanamericans in the south and the Massive Resistance Movement of the Civil Rights Era brought a new round of statue building and monument building. This is what critics are talking about. This is what theyre seeing in the meaning of those monuments. The president has described the monuments as beautiful and he argues that George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were slave owners, might their statues be next. Trump adds the removal of monuments amounts to the changing of history and culture. Do you believe that . Do you agree . Well, theres a powerful argument out there about a slippery slope or a socalled powerful argument that if you remove a lee, you have to remove a washington. I think this is just wrong. There are lots of distinctions. We asked what do people stand for today, what do they stand for in their lifetimes and what did the statues stand for when they were put up. I think we can make really good distinctions among these different kinds of monuments. John fabian witt from yale law school. John, thank you so much, look forward to seeing you again and appreciate your time. Quick break, everybody. Were keeping a close eye on things in boston. You can see the crowds, they are massive to say the least. Well be right back here on msnbc live. N you and lifes beautiful moments. Switch to flonase allergy relief. Flonase outperforms the 1 nondrowsy allergy pill. 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Theres black lives matter and theres the antifascist movement and every other group you can imagine, they say. Give me your thoughts on the snapshot of this. Alex, i think this is part of a larger struggle thats been going on frankly in American Culture for years. When i went down to charleston two years ago to do a times cover story on the massacre in the Mother Emanuel Church of the nine bible study church goers by a white supremacist, if youll remember the Confederate Flag in South Carolina then came down off of the property and that was what i think really began this debate about confederate symbols, Confederate Flags, confederate statues across the south. But that was a larger conversation of black lives matter, of trayvon martin, of freddie gray in baltimore, ferguson in missouri. I mean this is all part of the sense in this country of race, this big race debate, and also of this president. And so theres this outrage thats lingering over this week where the president has yet fully to close the book on this episode from charlottesville last weekend and really say that racism is unacceptable, that theres no moral equivalency between protesting neonazis and being a neonazi. So i think thats what you see is this sort of anger on a lot of Different Levels and a lot of different sides of this debate. Eliza, if jay is right that the dylann roof shooting there at the Emanuel Ame Church was the catalyst or a resurgence of this kind of thought, do you agree that this presidency has only exacerbated it . I definitely think the way the president handled this has kind of sent out all these different feelers. Some of these people on the far right, the white supremacists, nazis, those are not part of the far right, theyre a separate group. Theyre feeling emboldened, theyre here, having these rallies. The other people are angry and frustrated with the way the president handled this. Theyre frustrated that this got to this point. And of course Heather Heyer who was killed last week kind of became this point person. I saw photos of people wearing her face on them. So i think theres lots of anger, and it just mobilized. The way this has been handled, its been simmering for a long time, like jay said, and its just reached a boiling point. Jay, what kind of impact do you think this entire week will have on the trump presidency, a week that was started in charlottesville, that saw the departure of steve bannon, and then sees more than 20,000 people rallying in Downtown Boston . Alex, i think you see this the rupture that is being played out in boston right now quite physically on the streets, but is the rupture thats within the white house as well. You saw that with the departure of steve bannon. Yes, hes left the white house but that empowers him all the more to be a very vocal, very powerful voice of criticism on the outside with his breitbart news. And he said that hes going to go to war with people he called the, quote unquote, white house, the javankas as he calls Jared Kushner and ivanka trump. Really to take on the republican establishment on the hill. So you see this Party Breaking apart, these fissures going to war with itself. As much as democrats stand back and say, hey, we have no part of this but its almost become a threeway argument in washington. I think you see that more and more this week more than ever in the trump white house. You know, its interesting you mention the javanka. Eliza, i want to ask you, are they off limits to steve bannon . This is the president s muchbeloved daughter and her husband, two of the closest people to hi personally and professionally given their roles there in the west wing. They may not share his ideology completely, but i think if steve bannon goes after them, there may be some sort of backlash. What do you think . I dont think anybody is off limits to steve bannon. I mean we saw steve bannon and Jared Kushner have been kind of at war throughout this presidency, counterleaking with their allies. And so i definitely dont think theyre off limits. Id actually like to point out i was talking to a conservative aide last night about just bannons departure and what this meant for conservatives and theres definitely concern about access to the white house now that bannon and even to some extent priebus were gone. They felt like those were their point people but they also saw great power with bannon being outside with breitbart. While bannon is trumps ally right now, if he ever feels like trump starts to be part of that establishment, to kind of start agreeing with the gary cohns of the white house and john kelly, he doesnt think that bannon has any problem going against the president. He likes the ideas that trump represents right now, but at least this aide said he felt like bannon no one is off limits. Eliza collins and jay newton small. Ladies, whats going on in boston, well start the top of the hour there but i thank you for your time. For all of you a big welcome where it is 1 00 in the east, 10 00 a. M. Out west. The stand against hate makes its way to boston. You are looking at some of the estimated 20,000 people marching in protest to a planned rightwing rally. Welcome to all of you. Im alex witt here at msnbc world headquarters. There are more than 500 Police Officers also on the streets. They are there to keep the peace. Thr