Transcripts For MSNBCW Up W Chris Hayes 20130113

With a prepaid card. Spends like cash. Feels like membership. Good morning, im chris hayes. The country will see more extreme weather. In the east, highs in the 50s. On the west coast, temperatures near freezing and severe storms are threatening the mississippi and ohio River Valleys with flooding. And in egypt, a court has ordered a retrial for former president hosni mubarak. Im joined by msnbc contributor, joy reed, and tara mcinnis, executive director for american for progress action fun and professor of linguistics and contributing editor at the new republic and columnist at the New York Daily News and amy goodman, author and, of course, host of democracy now. This week president obama anoupsed three cabinet nominations all white men. The five departures which as of wednesday include hilda solace to our males. The appointments have called into question the president s commitment to diversity in his second term, concerns by a mick kmur in the New York Times on tuesday, showing president obama last month in the oval office surrounded by his closest advisers discussing fiscal cliff negotiations. 1 of 11 is a woman, Valerie Jarrett whos leg is barely visible. That picture is not fully illustrative of the president s record. According to the New York Times 43 of mr. Obamas appointees have been women. Thats roughly the same as clinton and onethird more than george w. Bush and hes nominated female judges at twice the rate of president bush and more women, minority and gay judges than any previous president has. On wednesday, White House Press secretary jay carney defend tornado president s record. The president s senior staff here is well women are well recommended in the president s senior staff here. Two of the three deputies, deputy chiefs of staff are women. The White House Council is a woman. A woman runs Homeland Security for this country. Secretary that nepolitano. The cabinet secretary in charge of the most piece of domestic policy generation is a woman, kathleen sebelius. Look at the record. Its a vast improvement. I am of two minds about this story. One, this was kind troling and little bit of a trap. The photo spoke with such a powerful photo that it ended up sort of dominating the actual content of the art cal that was below the photo which said, look, this is onethird better than Previous Administration equal can bottom line and deep problems in the pipeline. At the same time, i think also, theres that photo is not nothing. I mean, it says something about what the inner circle is. Im curious what you guys think about invented issue or real issue . I think its important that were having discussion but i think it way more complicated than the photo. Weve had a year of photos and theres another one of a bunch of people to speak in congress about Birth Control none of whom were women so were sensitized to this conversation. But fundamentally whats interesting is why were having it and a little bit deeper about what it means for what comes next. 1 of 3 people who voted in this election were women who voted for obama. We had a discussion about binders of women. Were having this discussion about the cabinet largely because of how we got here. I think the personal matters but what that means for the policy actually would be a much more interesting conversation. I think part of the reason was well play a little bit of the binder for women. It became a tag looib after mitt romney told the story in one of the debates. Take a look. Ive got to tell you we dont have to collect a bunch of binders to find qualified, talented, driven young women. The idea to go and ask where a qualified woman was, come to my house. He didnt need a binder. What does that mean . What does that mean . Why is joe biden hiding qualified women in his house . What i better than joe biden. I agree. Im grad were talking about it. That photo had about a dozen people in it. The reality is theres 22 members of the cabinet and cabinetlevel positions. Eight of them are women. Another five are minority men. So its not like that photo is exactly representative of the cabinet. Thats one thing. And the other thing is the groups that are engaged many the clutching of the pearls on this are number one, republicans, who, come on, seriously, they couldnt even find any women to talk about Birth Control and theyre obsessing over womens Reproductive Health and the beltway media which is not exactly teeming with women either. So i think its a little bit of trolling. But, of course, the first term of a president is like freshman year. You have to surround the people that are good for you and the second term is like youre an upper classmen and you pick your roommates and it looks like from the past three highs picking bros, only guys but hes picking three very highprofile positions. Not the whole cabinet. Generally, im a little skeptical of the value of what we these days, call conversations with a capital c. But in this case i think its important. My whole show is founded on the premise of that. We have to talk about it when were talking about sensoring somebody for their moral views. If we looked 50 years ago with the Obama Administration it would be hard to say he had a woman problem. Nevertheless, the fact is, we need to keep in mind especially at this pivotal time extent theres a problem with women, news stories saying women are, perhaps, more reluctant to take jobs that require longer house than weve seen Anne Marie Slaughter article at that. We need to keep that in mind. You and i both, as fathers of young children, see how difficult it can be to do anything after 5 00 p. M. If youre concerned with a child to the extent that burden falls disproportionately on women and we need to keep having that conversation so im glad to see that come up. And we have to talk about diversity of political opinion. On the issue of women, go back to president obamas first term welcome a large group of women, leaders, who were then his cabinet and within the white house, gather with him to say, we may be here but we want to be heard. There was an uprising at the very beginning. And then now, look at whos leaving. Hilda solace, the department of labor, first latino secretary of labor, extremely progressive. Looking at. Lisa jackson. Lisa jackson who may well be leaving among other issues, because of keystone excel. We dont know where obama is coming down but the pipeline that would bring dirty oil from canada to the gulf of mexico that goes to the issue of Climate Change so youre losing not only women but very progressive people and what is replacing them. In the bigger pick kbhur jack lew, jacob lew who very much follows in Timothy Geithners footsteps and people are asking serious questions about him and well talk about accountability. Looking at john brennan. And what it means for him to head the cia. The man who came out of the Bush Administration, identified with they call it enhanced interrogation techniques. One might call it torture. Drone attacks. These are the serious issues that have to be looked at diversity and always. I think you raise a good point. Which seats women are in. There are three seats with women as treasury secretary, defense secretary and Veterans Affairs and back to that photo, the fiscal cliff conversation that where women are sitting, the first woman ever appointed, was the labor secretary. We have a good history of women in the labor position. What about treasury secretary and defense . What difference does this make . So where they sit really matters. One thing this issue brings up so the idea of these kind of disingenuous attacks from republicans on this. Which has been interesting to me because i tweeted out the photo of the times photo. I had the good fortune of coming up in the world of lefty media that i cant recalling being in a meeting with 11 men and one woman. I dont think as a general rule thats a good idea in any case for anything other than maybe an nfl football team. Like i dont understand why you would have a meeting where that was the case. I tweeted it out and it got retweeted by a bunch of conservatives like, ha, ha, you women of america, youve been punked by the administration. Heres Mike Huckabee doing his best at this. Take a look. You remember back during the Democratic Convention how he accused the republicans of waging a war on women . And he made the Democratic Convention mostly about abortion and free contraceptives. And a lot of women must have believed it because he got 55 of the female vote, mitt romney, 44 . But now a lot of those females who support barack obama are scratching their heads and saying, whoa, how come theres so much testosterone in the obama cabinet and so little estrogen . Give them contraceptives and abortions but dont worry about positions of authority. They shouldnt be asking for such things. Well, that seems like a fair and reasonable attack. Well talk about that clip right after we take a break. With multiple lacerations to the wing and a fractured beak. Surgery was successful, but he will be in a cast until it is fully healed, possibly several months. So, if the duck isnt able to work, how will he pay for his Living Expenses . Aflac. Like his rent and car payments . Aflac. What about gas and groceries . Aflac. Cell phone . Aflac, but i doubt hell be using his phone for quite a while cause like i said, he has a fractured beak. [ male announcer ] send the aflac duck a getwell card at getwellduck. Com. A great cup of coffee should be easy as one, two. Well, just one. New single serve cafe collections from Maxwell House now available for use in the keurig kcup brewer. Always good to the last drop. Office superstore ink retailer in america. Now get 6 back in staples rewards for every ink cartridge you recycle when you spend 50 on hp ink. Staples. That was easy. To help protect your eye health as you age. Would you take it . Well, there is. [ male announcer ] its called ocuvite. 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I think the main thing i would think of is that unless we think obama was being cynical about this and im not aware of anybody that does he did put himself on the line to try to have what would have been in this photograph, a person, susan rice, who is one, black, two, a woman, and three, unrelated to either one of those things, not somebody who has exactly known for the most butter smooth personality in terms of getting along with people. Theres a kind of Larry Summers abrasiveness aspect to her yet the idea was that she would be secretary of state. He meant if that didnt work out but its hard for me to forget that in terms of whats going on now. So i think its a ridiculous charge because of rice alone. And by the way, when she was put forward and we dont know if she was the first pick but when she was put forward she was immediately attacked and a25kd in the most debasing terms by people like john mccain saying, shes not smart enough and really attacked her in such an ugly way that i think its ironic that anyone from the party having seen and witnessed and participated in that would turn the charge around on the president. So theres an interesting question here, i think, which is who has standing to make this claim . Which i think ends up being the kind of second beat of the conversation because ive seen people respond to and i think, completely legitimately respond to it by being the White House Press core. Hello . Have you seen the White House Press core . White men and white men and white men and some women. The operative word, the first word, the White House Press core. And media broadly is incredibly male and incredibly white. And so the question is who has the standing to make the claim . I think people theres some kind of understandable resistance to anyone attacking the white house be it seems like its kind of a copout. Its the president of the United States and the diversity of viewpoint and like you said during the break, in terms of people and where theyre coming from from a class perspective. I think its interesting not only to think about this in the space of cabinet appointments. The Business World is woefully behind everywhere. Religious institutions that if we make change in this space we are need to make it across the board. And that its telling and that theres an interaction of these different groups. Then theres this resistance to how thats done. The keep question is okay, if we all say this is a goal and i think theres a broad, social consensus that it should be a goal, the breakdown comes along implementing it, right . You get into this i thought this was very interesting interaction of our one of our second producers found. This is back in clinton bill clinton facing the exact same kind of charge and railing to Andrea Mitchell against the bean counters who were, essentially, auditing his diversity record. Take a look. I think a president s staff and, net ought to look like america. I think it ought to look like america. Today clinton rejected complaints from womens groups that he hadnt delivered. People doing this talking are by and large are talking about quotas and i i dont believe believe in quotas. He was visibly angry critics are ignoring subcabinet appointees who are female into they would count against the administration, the bean counters. If i had appointed white men to that position and you know thats true. Well, a question that we have to ask here is if we want to solve this problem and i think we all do, are we talking about combatting whats called sexism . For example, is the reason the White House Press core has a certain problem with balance of types of people because theyre theres people that think that women arent as capable and therefore, the women dont get the jobs . If thats part of it, how much. And how much of sit a matter of combatting aspects of society which may be remnants of sexism along time ago or a longish time ago and are now just settled in such as the Way Companies have policies for childcare et cetera. Those are tough questions to answer. I dont know if we can be scientific about it. And its a pipeline issue, too. If you think about where treasury secretaries come from you have to go back further than the president s week. They come from wall street and the Federal Reserve system. How many women and minorities are in that pipeline. The defense, and a lot of people had invested in michelle florio. Somebody that enlisted in vietnam and you go back to chuck hagel and from that standpoint he provides that diversity. Can women be in the military where they would be in a position to take that job so we6 to address issues of pipeline. It doesnt start at the president ial appointment. But the question is oh why are women not in the pipeline . What can be done about it in the present tense to fix it . Those questions are just always difficult to answer and sometimes, difficult to talk about is what i found interesting. I also think theres this kind of social network question and i think in some ways that gets to be the real issue is here. Theres two questions about a, how should we measure this. All of the appointments, all the cabinet level appointments, whos in the inner circle because once you get to that it is a very male inner circumstance. Except for Valerie Jarrett. Is it a largely male inner circle . Hes a mans man. And so the question becomes, who having lived in washington and watch this operate and my wife worked in the white house, so much of washington operates along the kind of spidering out of these social networks. Who knows who. And thats how jobs and appointments happen. No ones theres not some batch applications coming in and somebodys reading through an application. Its, i worked with this person the last time we were in clinton and theres a lot of this momentum in certain directions of who is going to be there. And i thought it was interesting that Charlie Rangel on our air here made this critique. I want to play this clip and get your response after this. Officeyour business needs. K. At prices that keep you. Out of the red. This week get a bonus 15 itunes gift card with any qualifying 75 ink purchase. Find thousands of big deals now. At officemax. How did i know . Well, i didnt really. See, i figured low testosterone would decrease my sex drive. 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I think its no excuse if its the second term. If its the first term you can say they had to know who was around them to get this job and i had thought and maybe so, it could be the harvard problem where people just know each other and trust each other and women and minorities dont get a chance to rub elbows and their representations and experiences is not known. Hes had four years to work the bench to work the second team. So that in the second term, these people should be just as experienced as anybody any other american. You know its interesting, speaking of the harvard problem. You had Larry Summers who was the president of harvard who famously and ultimately was forced out because his comments about women cant do math and science. He was treasury secretary and then Timothy Geithner and the tradition is continuing. Thats what equal opportunity is about. You have to go beyond the people you know and it has to be all over the country. Thats what job searches are about. Reaching out to people. Not just your comfort zone and that will make a better country and its not just for reasons. Its very practical when you look at the economy, for example. It would have been extremely practical to get someone whos not actually involved in the economic crisis. But you have to realize, with Charlie Rangels critique the caveat is theres this longstanding kind of, not bitterness but separation between the cdc and the caucus members and barack obama. He kind of stepped outside of the black pipeline. He didnt play ball with them. And the sort of other version, i wouldnt call it the harvard problem but the basic social networks. The entire rise of barack obama was in some ways building a parallel set of networks to the one that had existed in africanamerican politics particularly in primary states that had engendered a lot of frustration and anger. So whenever they get an opportunity to voice that frustration they do. But i thought the line about the harvard problem was an interesting and important one. You do see this and, you know, im in this, right . Ive seen this firsthand because ive been embedded in that world. People that went to expensive fancy schools together know each other. People that Work Together at the same law firm, the ones that pay six figures, know each other and those networks of power are the networks in this administration and the administration before that and the administration before that, tended to channel people in and i dont know where the alternatives are. One alternative is the United States military which actually works as a fairly good engine of social mobility in terms of getting people through the ranks that come from all different walks of life but there isnt any kind of civilian version, i think, right now that in American Life thats producing this kind of inclusive, you know, engine of social mobility. To get people into those sorts of things. Something worries me about calling it a network of power. Even though it is, i think were dealing also, with something thats human which are birds of a feather. Not necessarily that youre thinking, we, who are white and in power, must keep it among ourself, the way, for example, white aristocrats did tend to think 50 years ago. Its who i know and who i hang out with. I dont think thats ever going to change so the answer seems to be that until we have the diversity were looking for we have to counteract that natural human tendency and look beyond. Thats why i think and we go back to the clinton quote about how should this be rectified. Everybody hates quotas. Quotas are bad. Im pryo quotas. In the same way the format of a haiku poem or any kind of formal constraint producing innovation and creativity. The formal constraint of Something Like a quota or going through and auditing and doing the numbers is going to force you to be more energetic and inventive and innovative and any outside of your comfort zone when thinking about staffing. Its like the rooney rule. Great idea. Explain the rooney rule. You didnt have africanamericans rising to the level of coaching in the back end particularly in professional football and baseball and professional sports leagues there were no africanamericans in the back office. And it was incredibly embarrassing optically where you have tons of africanamerican athletes coached exclusive ily by white men. So the idea was whenever a coaching position came up you had to consider a certain number of minorities, africanamericans, before they made a Selection Process and it forced the league to become more diverse so i think sometimes you do need to do the bean counting. I think quotas complicate things. I ran a program in nepal to get women in political parties. Many countries around the world that have enshrined quotas. And the quotas if you look at us compared to many other countries it can make a difference. Theyre a means to an end, not an end, and they can be complicated. The people ran their sister or mother and people were not train trained and it disproved the point that women could be competent. Round two was different but theres this question of, you know, what are we getting at. I think its a way to get us in but in the end, the outcome is really different. I think back to the harvard question, theres an aspect of it thats the network and an aspect that harvard is very expensive. What it takes to get into this pipeline adds a whole other layer, i think part of this comes down to class. And whos being represented in different kmk capacities. Itsier to see the women and the gender or race in a photos. When it comes to diversity of opinion and how thats impacting policy which is where we should be taking the conversation. Theres a lot of other layers to this in the harvard problem. And you can have one can mamg, say, a National Security team that was multiracial and uniformly neoconservative in its orientation. And i think theres a question about how do we tabulates that at the end of the day . Thats sort of a black seat on the supreme court. That doesnt mean africanamericans are happy with the people sitting in it. They loved Thurgood Marshall and now we have clarence thomas. I think its how we allocate the diversity of opinion. It should mean diversity of individuals opinions rather than supposing that people who are in a certain category will have certain ideas because often those ideas might be the ones that we, depending on what were like but the other side of the coin is when we might not like them so we look for an individual kind of diversity and that would include the class kind as well but thats hard to do in the present tension. And also, i think, the final component is Life Experience really does matter. Having covered washington and its like, one of the things we try to do at this table is bring people who have a lot of different Life Experiences, served in the many reens or were homeless or are unemployed or socior socialologists and it produces people from various diverse grounds. I thought if Congress Lost their health care for a week the we would have universal health care if they had to deal with it. Tire are ara mcinnis. Were next powerpoint e you lost. E you lost. 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At first glass he has the perfect resume. 25 year veteran, speaks fluid arabic and served as deputy executive director from 2001 to 2003 and director of the terrorist Threat Integration Center from 2003 to 2004 and director of the interim National Counterterrorism center from 2004 to 2005. And he seemed to have the perfect resume in 2008 when his name was floated to head the agency but back then the central role he held at the cia post 9 11 and his fullthroated on the record defense of the bush era policies of rendition and enhanced interrogation techniques short of water boarding which he says is torture, caused again win outrage. Heres brennan in a 2007 interview. The cia has acknowledged it has detained about 100 terrorists since 9 11 and about a third have been subjected to what the cia refers to as enhanced interrogation tactics and only a small portion of those have been subjected to the most serious types of enhanced procedure. There have been a lot of information thats come out from the interrogation procedures that the agency has, in fact, used against the real hard did she core terrorists. Its saved lives. They are hardened terrorists who were responsible for 9 11. Shown no remorse for the death of 3,000 innocents. The backlash was so strong he withdrew his name and said it was immaterial to the critics that im a strong opponent to many of the politics of the Bush Administration such as coerrive interrogation tactics. Instead he was appointed to be the president s chief counterterrorism advice or and hes been described as the architect of obamas war on killing, through drone strikes. Four years later the concern about having brennan head the cir are muted and we hope the confirmation process will bring the necessary accounting of his role in not only president bushs role on terror. Eli lake and chris anders. Senior Legislative Council of the aclu washington, d. C. Legislative office. Thanks for having me. Eli, from the i guess from the perspective of the universe of security folks and let me say this before i started the conversation. I wanted cia people at the table and we couldnt get it done and in order to speak about this stuff they have to get with the agency and they said there was a backlog. We are trying to get cia people because i think the institutional bureaucratic perspective on this is really important and let me express my frustration with the fact that we cant have them here, a. And b. , all these conversations happen shrouded behind secrecy. All this secret information we dont have access to and thats massively frustrating from the perspective of a democratic citizen. So that said, eli, where do you think folks around the sort of security apparatus, the kind of frontline officers and the Civil Servants and the cia, where do you think they are on the question of both brennan and the legacy of the bush years and the torture regime, in terms of how they think about it . Its hard for me to give you a kind of universal this is what everybody in the cia thinks. I think theres clear a sense that when there was a question or potential for legal action in some capacity against cia officers even if personally i know theres plenty of cia officers who disagreed with these enhanced interrogation techniques but they thought they were basically being asked to do something to be their country and potentially would have many of them have had to take out insurance plans they thought they would be sued in some capacity. That was something that i think was a bullet that was somewhat dodged but thats leon panetta who takes over as the director of the agency and becomes its biggest advocate and eventually the Justice Departments rereview of those cases and that issue has largely subsided. Meaning the Justice Department says, were not going to prosecute anyone . What i gather is that they looked into it and decide not to go forward or reopen any of these particular cases. But that, i know, was a huge issue and that gets to the whole functionality of the agency. If you have officers who think that when theyre told to do something i mean, the cia, keep in mind, it breaks the law internationally espionage is against the law. And tell them they could face queenss later on how can you have a functioning. Theres a different between break a law in another country and breaking the law in the u. S. I agree but the cia has a legacy of breaking lots of laws in order to do whats called directed action which is a euphamism. And how germane do you think John Brennans record is . I think very germane. During the Bush Administration, there were about a dozen officials that were september up by the Bush Administration to the senate for basically, promotions. For better jobs. And looking for Senate Confirmations of them. The senate, with the exception of alberto gonzalez, rejected all of them or they withdrew on their own. And they had records and in some cases, i think they were probably less extensive than what john brennan has. They should take the same approach they took with the bush nominees. He was a central player at the cia. Deputy executive director for a while and chief of staff to porter goss, bush ci acha. He knew everything about the torture and the secret prisons that porter goss knew. And ill hold that. Well talk about the last four years at kourntd terrorism advice or after we take this break. If loving you is wrong i dont wanna be right [ record scratch ] what . its not bad for you. It just tastes that way. [ female announcer ] honey nut cheerios cereal hearthealthy, whole grain oats. You cant go wrong loving it. But with advair, im breathing better. So now i can be in the scene. Advair is clinically proven to help significantly improve lung function. 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Right from your iphone or android smartphone. One more way quicken loans is engineered to amaze. The truth about mascara is. Introducing a revolutionary it new mascara. Clump crusher. Crusher. 200 more volume. Zero clumps. New clump crusher from easy, breezy, beautiful covergirl. Chris anderson, you said the senate should view this skeptically or do it like they did in the senate, embedded in at high levels in the cia during the torture regime, thats a kind of black mark on their record and i want to give the argument in opposition to that for a moment. Which is, a. , what eli is saying. It was they were told it was cleared by aolc. They said it was legal. It came the down from the white house. They are, you know, in the authority structure. They are a product of the executive branch telling them what they were doing was legal and also, i think in brennans defense the fact that he came out and called waterboarding which is the most extreme of the methods that were put on the table, he called it torture, unambiguously in 2007. Take a look. So was secretary rice correct today when they called it, a vital tool he said its certainly subjecting a individuals severe pain and suffering which is the classic definition of torture and i think its inconsistent techbt with American Values and something that should be prohibited. Does that is that exculpatory in your view . Hes not some cia agent at the line level. He was not out in the field. He was the deputy executive director. All the key points, he was chief of staff to porter goss during a lot of these key points. He wasnt a flew on the wall or someone at the bottom of the chain and one of the things i think is interesting to look at is when he withdrew his candidacy for this position four years ago, he wrote to then senator, i guess president elect at that point, obama, withdrawing his name and at the time he said that he had no role in the decisionmaking process for torture. But what we do know is that he knew everything about it. So one of the things that i think the senates going to have to figure out is, is he kind after a fly on the wall . Cced on every memo or at one side of the spectrum. The other side of the spectrum is being, i guess, the decider. Hes saying he wasnt the decider but theres a lot of space in between. And in d. C. , chief of staff or deputy director, what they are usually implementers. Not deciders or flies on the wall. Theyre implementers. And for someone at this level, if he was implementing this torture program, secret prison program, thats a big deal. I think that this discussion is complicated by the fact that everyone is implicated in this, right . Congress is implicated. They have successively successive congresss had a handsoff approach to these ideas of torture. We dont know how much at the senior Level Congress even knew about what was going on. The things that the Bush Administration did that were every american. Not just to every american. Thats not true. Well to, well, thats important. They were done by the mush administration and they were all given a free pass. And somebody like this, i think, is not the implementer is not the person you need to look at. You need to look at the Bush Administration, all of whom got off scott free. And beyond the Bush Administration, the continuum of the Bush Administration to the Obama Administration. John brennan doesnt just come out of the Bush Administration hes been there for four years of president obama. And theyre involved with the Drone Program. I just came from qatar where i was discussing climate and i went to al jazeera are and interviewed the only journalist held at guantanamo for years. He was never charged and released after six years. Held in afghanistan and guantanamo. He was tortured and constantly interrogated about who were the bosses at al jazeera are. An astounding story of how this man was held and after freed after a 400 day hunger fast. The reason i raise this is when people watch the Senate Confirmation hearings of john brennan, hes an example of one of the few voices of the voiceless that can describe the reality of whats happening on the ground add guantanamo. This is not just about jeanne brennan. It goes to president obama as well who promised to close it and its now the fourth anniversary of president obama promising to close it. And congress blocked it. Congress is implicated in that. That was one of the First Executive orders the president signed and the democrats wouldnt vote for it. Youre right. Everyone is implicated here but john brennan, the inner circle of president obama and that goes to the issue of the drone wars as well. Let me push back for a second and just defend congress and the senate for a moment. Back during the Bush Administration, there were people who were put up for these positions. And one of John Brennans colleagues, john rizzo, who is at the time, acting General Council of the cia, thats a senateconfirmed patchy f senateconfirmed position, he had such a rough hearing and such a rough confirmation process that he was forced to withdraw his name from consideration for that position. There were other people, too. The candidate to be Deputy Attorney general of the Justice Department, tim flanagan, also withdrew his nomination. A number of other people including some top military leaders whose careers ended because of this. Not the same as going to prison or not the same as being charged with a crime for a role in torture but its a big deal in d. C. And the senate you can say that john brennan had to spend four years in the penalty box, right . That he didnt thats hardly a penalty box there that position. The penalty box being the white house. And the leader in the Intelligence Community and i think so that the rest of the panel is engaged in a bit of moral posturing here because i think the policy of supporting allied counterterrorism and Security Services which i think do far more shocking of the conscious interrogations than everything we know about the eit program for the cia and that went on when you say eit youre talking about enhanced interrogation technique. John brennan acknowledged that waterboarding was torture. I think waterboarding does shock the conscious and america shouldnt do it and theres a debate 5b9 what constitutes torture and to assert that without accounting a disagreement on it you can call it torture and im not defending it but im saying that theres something deeper going on the the u. S. Liaison relationship before and after bush with the pakistani services, the egyptian services under mubarak and other countries is probably from a moral perspective, worse than anything that was done in the senior programs with the cia. And what youre talking about is the practice of rendition. Not just that, its more than rendition. Rendition is when you can sure someone in country a. And bring them to country b. It is the joint operations that exist in total secrecy with these other services, where they pick something up and use u. S. Intelligence or use u. S. Or Something Like that and the u. S. Steps away and it becomes a local. Go do your thing and train the same people. Ill get you thought on that in a second. Lets take a quick break. Now get 6 back in staples rewards for every ink cartridge you recycle when you spend 50 on hp ink. Staples. That was easy. Using robotics and mobile technology, verizon innovators have made it possible for teachers to teach, and for a kid. Nathan. Tadpole. To feel like a kid again. Because the worlds Biggest Challenges deserve even bigger solutions. Powerful answers. Verizon. Announcer did you know there are secret black market websites around the world that sell stolen identities . 30yearold american man, excellent credit rating. Announcer lifelock monitors thousands of these sites 24 hours a day. And if we discover any of our members data for sale, lifelock is there with the most comprehensive Identity Theft protection available. [. ] [squealing, crash] call 1800lifelock or go to lifelock. Com today. I was going to say one of the reasons mooef people think john brennan is the guy that barack obama wants is because theres a sense of a lot of whats being done in terms of the targeting killings with drones about forced protection. Not wanting to put boots on ground to wage the war on terror. And the idea that these operations shouldnt exist in the cia should be done in the pentagon and one of the things the president would need in order to move some of these operation into the pentagon is a willing cia director who wouldnt fight it so if john brennan was willing to allow a lot of these operations to move into the defense spheres out of the secretive world of the cia that would be a good outcome. We have to ask not just should it be done in the cio arrest the pentagon or should it be done at all and i think of four years ago when brennan was going to first be nominated but was forced to withdraw his any consideration. And i think of madea benjamin standing up, the protester at code pink, who stood up while he was speaking and she said i speak here to remember the 16yearold in pakistan killed in a drone attack when he was simply investigating what was happening. He had held a News Conference the day before to say whats happening in my country and she said, i speak for 16yearold alachi, the son of the cleric in yemen. 16 years old born in denver. How was it two weeks after his father was killed he was kill in a drone strike. This goes to john brennan who was i want natalie involved with this and ultimately to president obama. This whole program of drones, of targeted killings, must be questioned. What madea benjamin said when she stood up is i speak for the constitution and my love of law and order. These are the kinds of debates we should be having. And theres no question from all of the warning that john brennan is intimately involved with the targetkilling program. Every insider account he chooses the targets. In fact, theres a sort of like recurring thin about him as this priestlike presence. This is a Washington Post profile of brennan. Some white house aides describe him as a priestlike presence in thinks midst with a moral depth leveled by a dry witt and john rizzo recalled his surfacing in unexpected ways. Brennan once questioned rizzos use of the bcc function in the agencys email system to send a blind copy of a message to a third Party Without the primary recipients knowledge. He wasnt joking and he regarded that as underhanded. One of the ways i think the defense of the targets killing program has been carried out by the Obama Administration is to say, look, we understand were playing with some dangerous stuff here. We have people, a tremendous moral rectitude and we have an intense internal process and its sophisticated and rigorous and a legal memo from the olc saying we have the Constitutional Authority to do this. Of course, we dont know anything about what that legal memo looks like or what the actual how the list gets drawn up so the maddening then about all this is, yes, we should have the debate about targeting killings and John Brennans role and. Obamas kill list. A debate about all that and yet all of that has been in every turn blocked by the administration and courts from getting out into the public sphere so were having a debate without the information. Eli respond to that after we take a break. [ male announcer ] this is bob, a regular guy with an irregular heartbeat. The usual, bob . Not today. [ male announcer ] bob has afib Atrial Fibrillation not caused by a heart valve problem, a condition that puts him at greater risk for a stroke. [ gps ] turn left. I dont think so. [ male announcer ] for years, bob took warfarin, and made a monthly trip to the clinic to get his blood tested. But not anymore. Bobs doctor recommended a different option onceaday xarelto®. 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But shes still going to give me a heart attack. Were more than 78,000 people looking out for more than 70 million americans. Thats health in numbers. Unitedhealthcare. Hello from new york. Im chris hayes and i have msnbc contribute tore joy reed and eli lake chris anders of the aclu and i amy goodwin. We are talking about john brennan. Hes been instrumental in devicing the strategy for wage what can is no longer called officially the war on terror but is something. You know, activities in a whole bunch of countries and a lot of targets killing. And one of the questions i think on the table is what role he has played in that. And also this kind of accountability question. I wanted to bring into the conversation, we were talking about the kill list. I also wondered when we talked about accountability, to bring in the story offen. I think its important, these two things are happening in the same week. Which hes the cia agent on the 25th and he agreed to serve 35 months. He emailed the name of a covert cia officer to a reporter and in the midst of a. Reporter ing out what was going on with the torture regime in the cia. Hes the first current or former cia officer of disclosing classified information to a reporter and he is, as of now, the only person thats going to do jail time for their involvement in the torture regime. No one else is going to see the inside of a jail cell except this guy, who talked to a reporter about what was going on. And then in the same week, someone who is relatively high up in the chain of command at the cia during the period of time is nominated to head the agency. I think its one thing to say, to me its one thing to say as i think you were making the argument before, eli, look, these people put themselves on the line. And they were given legal assurances and the cia has to do their job and if you want to go after anyone you should go after people that you said, all these other people are implicated but then to match that with the fact that this dude is going to jail for 30 months because me talked about the program to a reporter so we can know about it . He disclosed the departmentity of somebody undercover. Eli lake, you were a reert. H reporter i will never defend that. I agree with you. I dont like it when theres highlevel prosecutions. Youre a Great Security reporter. I know things because people talk to you. Yes, i agree. But i was making the distinction there that from the cias perspective because i sometimes feel like i have to play that role. Thats fine. And i want to make it very clear no more leak laws. No more leak investigations and leak to me. Bubba i would say that from the cias permanent they believe that theres a huge distinction between giving up the identity of somebody undercover which is why that law was basically passed after there were, i guess it was the phillip amgy book that identified the cia station in greece. It turned out it looks like the killers knew that before the ag disclosures but nonetheless, theres a huge difference between identifying someone undercover and whose accident e identity is secret and waterboarding someone. But thats from the cia perspective. That shouldnt necessarily be the Justice Department perspective. But remember, under president obama, more whistle blowers have been prosecuted than under all other president s combined. But those have been under, we should be clear this thats the espionage act which is different. This is not the espionage act. Right. And we have to remember, too, the Vice President of the United States is deputy Scooter Libby and carl row were never pree prosecuted for outing a cia undercover. And neither was dick armitage. Heres the point. If we say we want an accountability moment the accountability should have been with the people that crafted the policy in the moush administration and wrote the memo who note the subsequently revoked olc memo that talked about organ failure that is morally ode use in every way. Its the president of the United States, president obama, who made the choice that they wouldnt face accountability. Heres the president on january 11, 2009, making this argument about moving forward thats become the kind of hallmark with a look. I dont believe anybody is above the law. On the other hand, i also have a belief that we need to look forward as looking backwards. And part of my job is to make sure that, for example, the cia, youve got extraordinarily talented people who are working very hard to keep americans safe. I dont want them to suddenly feel like theyve got to spend all their time looking over their shoulders and lawyering. I think thats what people should be doing. They should be very concerned about wleernt they would go to jail. Last night at Riverside Church in new york, hundreds gathered to celebrate the 85th birthday of ramsey clark, the former u. S. Attorney general. Among one of the last times i saw ramsey clark was in syracuse. He was testifying at a trial of scores of people, peace activists who had laid down their bodies in front of the has beenford air base, protesting the fact that their drones are directed. Their drones, people go in and for people to understand how drones work. You dont have to be in the field. Theyre on a computer and youre just killing people from the comfort of your a mile from your house. And these people got convicted and ramsey clark, if former u. S. Attorney general, was speaking out on their behalf. We have to give voice to, not only the victims, because this doesnt increase our National Security. The fact that most people in pakistan see the u. S. As the enemy, it not what most people in the United States understand. Theyre not supposed to be an enemy. Because of the number of drone attacks and a half been going on there, i hope that this john brennan nomination will open up a full discussion about torture and drone wars and what the u. S. Is doing. Thats what would be productive. What is that not going to happen, eli . The policy of untiling terrorists widely popular and not just popular from a kind of its not terrorists were talking about the vast majority of the people who were killed are innocent civilians. Whatever you want to say about the Drone Program, and i would agree that in all of these calls for more transparency and less secrecy im with the left on this. But i would make it very, very clear that what is the alternative . Terms of to killing innocent people . Its not about killing innocent people. A lot of these drone attacks have been successful and the fact of the matter is we dont know because it is it is shrouded in secrecy. I any a more responsible view. Eli, stanford and n yochlt u did a study called living under drones drones. Thousands of innocent people have been killed in the drone attacks. When you say we got guilty people and were they tried . No. There were thousands of people who are innocent . You have to look at the fact that the fact that elias cashmerery no longer breathes or bin laden no longer breathes, those are very popular policies. I think its a reasonable position to say, i want all the data and what the cia knows about its civilian casualties. How they make these decision and im for that. The notion that the entire 3r578 the shroud and shock and awe dropping cluster bombing all over reek killinged a lot of civilians but we had a president that the said we could wage unlimited war on terrorists, decide who thr and kill them with. Whether its with bunker buster bombs or drones. When the congress of the United States the power to wage war its rare that an executive gives back power. Thats why we have a balance of power in the legislative branch. I think an important point. Al earn the of the Drone Program is if hunt for the ambassador in libya which rely on Security Services that wont help people. Its part of let me intervene for a moment. I think thats partly a false choice. To be clear youre talking about the authorization for the use of military force which is passed essentially unanimously by congress which gives incredibly broad powertion and was used by if mush administration and subsequently by the Obama Administration as the statutory legal basis for much of what they do and their conduct though ill say and we come back to this, if actual reasoning for why theyre able, froins, to the white house, to target someone like amar alachi and the ol kriemp olc contends that they have a process that meets the constitutional threshold of due process but we dont know what it looks like because that memo is locked behind secrecy and they wont give it up and a District Court judge just ruled they dont have to give it up so i think theres a few i want to compartmentalize a few issues because they all run together. The number of civilian casualties of the Drone Program is a massive ily strooirch consideration and moral consideration. Is the ratio of terrorists killed to civilians 110, 101 . That matters in the calculation. Second of all, what do we know about the Drone Program before we make those moral or strategic valuations. And should we be doing it at all . Even if were doing it in a really efficient way, are there alternatives to targeted killing in other countries . But none of those things can be debated with sophistication ory gore in the absence of the most basic kinds of information that we do not have access to. And i think for elis point about how popular these programs are, the reason that the targeted killing program does poll well is because selective leaks. The only thing people know about the program are whats being put out there as its successes. And the reality of the program and the scope of the program and the failures of the program and legal opinions are all being hidden from the public and theyre even being hidden from senators. And ill say this to the final points. Again, in these calculations, if people saw the Facebook Page of abdul alachi with a Facebook Page from denver, that the American People killed, right . That would change, i think, peoples way of thinking about the program. Now, again, youre going to say, obviously, we were not targeting him and it was an accidents and theres collateral damage. Im willing to suspend all that. I agree. We dont know and we need more information. But the brennan confirmation hearing could be an opportunity if members of the committee are watching this, could be an opportunity to ask some hard questions about that. Eli lake of news week and chris anders of aclu and amy goodwin of democracy now, thank you. And a shoutout to the family of Aaron Schwartz. Well talk about him in a little while. He was fighting for a more transparents world and he hung snooims one youre of life where wrongdoing has been strongly condemned after this. Join the counter revolution and switch to olay prox. 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Weve been talking about the lack of accountability for intelligent personals to engaged in or approved of torture and weve seen a similar lack of accountability from wall street to congress to the catholic church. But after more than a decade of massive institutional failures, political dysfunction and incompetence, systemic financial fraud and wars waged on false premises which have gone without official sanction theres one area of American Life where wrongdoing has been strongly and unkwoifally condemned. Professional sports. This week for the first time in 17 years, the Baseball Writers Association of america chose to elect no one to the Baseball Hall of fame because so many of the leading candidates, Roger Clemens and barry bonds, in particular, have been accused of using performanceenhancing drugs and deserving candidates who never tested positive for steroid use have been shut out from the hall on the mere suspicion they may have cheated. After the hall of fame debachle they announced a more restrictive Drug Testing Program in an effort to put the steroid era as far in the rearview era as possible. Bud selig said the new agreement, quote, addresses critical drug issues and symbolizes major league, baseballs vigilance against performance enhancing substances and that the league would continue to do everything it can to main than i a leadership stature in the years ahead. Moon while, usa today reported yesterday that Lance Armstrong plans to, quote, make an admission about doping in an interview with Oprah Winfrey that hell tape tomorrow. Armstrong was stripped of his seven Tour De France titles and banned from professional cycling after an investigation of the u. S. Doping agency found he used and distributed performanceenhancing drugs. So far hes strenuously denied that he ever engaged in doping. Joining me now is dave z year. Re know. Author of game over. And my colleague at the magazine of sports, john mcwhorter. And american studies and columnist at the daily news. And a contributor of espn magazine who wrote a great piece about andrew luck a few weeks ago. Thanks. I think this is such a fascinating kind of microcosm and a look at america. Hbc is laundering billions of dollars of drugs for drug kingpins worldwide and they get a settlement and its on page a16. A bunch of people approving waterboarding who were shot through the intelligence agencies, right . And like everyone is just freaking out about the Baseball Players and the example of this is this is documentary filmmaker ken burns. This is him on steroid use by Baseball Players. Take a look. I have no guarantee that anyone you loved and think is way bof sorry. I have no guarantees anyone you love and think is way aboch that didnt do it. Thats why they need to wait and wait and wait because it makes it impossible for us to judge excellence in this era. Those blooiv fors should suffer for a while. Those mother efers should suffer for a while. What did you think by the decision of the writers not to elect anyone . The same writer who is in 1990s turned a blind eye while these records were being set, i thought it was a colossal sham and hypocritical for about a thousand Different Reasons that we could go after, not the least of where i that the Baseball Hall of fame is rife with players who are guilty of other kinds of transgressions, to put it mildly. So to put this kind of stamp on the 1990s to pretend the 1990s didnt happen effectively, was something that i thought was a fraudulent act by the Baseball Writers Association of america. 57d in effect, theyre absolving the game itself. Not a lack of enforcement. It was becoming obvious not just to the writers but to the teams themselves, that, you know, barry bonds and mark mcgwire and sammy sosa did not just do this in the weight room. They were the first ones to discover a gym or Something Like that. A way of absolving them. But i think that, although i like the condemnation of cheating and i applaud it with you that this organ of fairness still functions among one class of people, sports fans, the problem is the way the ballots are set up as long as the Baseball Writers continue to dit they a they remain on the ballot because they wont get less than 5 and wont get 75 and then they block other worthy people from being considered for their achievements naturally. You say lock of enforcement . I say enforcement. Baseball games were 20, 10. And now theyre 149. You cant tell me that Major League Baseball didnt like the fact that you have these scores. You have basketball and football and highscoring points and they love the fact that there were a lot of more runs. And the home run race in 1998 between mcgwire and sosa was absolutely, no question, great for baseball and we saw attendance go up. Revenue went up. It was like the housing bubble. It was the version of the bubble. I had a player say to me when it comes to steroids in Major League Baseball and performanceenhancing drugs drib schun is a team issue but punishment is an individual issue. The idea that the entire weight of the era goes on barry bonds, hes like the 21st century sports world, this pursued, prosecuted creature and the institution is let off scottfree. But im not sure why its wrong. Despite all the things done many the past and all the blind eyes that were turned that at this point theres some sort of discipline and some sort of accountability being leveled. This is a again wigenuine quest. Now were disavows what happened before and its not going to happen again. Isnt that a good thing . Answer that question after this break. [ male announcer ] in blind taste tests, even ragu users chose prego. Prego . but ive bought ragu for years. [ thinking ] wonder what other questionable choices ive made . I choose date number 2 whooo [ sigh of relief ] [ male announcer ] choose taste. Choose prego. A great cup of coffee should be easy as one, two. Well, just one. New single serve cafe collections from Maxwell House now available for use in the keurig kcup brewer. Always good to the last drop. We just discovered that john wrote a review of one of daves books. Opposite of love is indifference. I appreciate the passion. I learned so much. You asked a question which i think is really good. To say, what is wrong with basically, attempting to starting to assert some accountability and expression of this was wrong in saying, look, theres this no ones going to get in the hall and this is how were going to start to put a stake in the ground. I thought this was about progress. But a small part of me feels like enforcing this accountability, acts as this weapon of mass distraction. Saying in American Society well be moral on the question of barry bonds and lance arm strong. As for the whole lying to go to war in iraq thing or the financial markets, that were not going to talk about that too much so theres a social fupgs. Thats the Baseball Writer problem. I think thats true. Its not the writers who are saying that as well but i think its serves that social function but the bigger issue is the issue of hypocrisy when theyre trying to assert this on the 90s when so much of the history of baseball is rife with not only people using performance enhancing drug but a whole era before 1947 where you had the ultimate performance of hitters like pitchers not having to pitch against josh gibson. The institution itself. Doesnt it make its easy to do it when so many people dislike barry bonds. Its not like the Baseball Writers love barry bonds. Hes the perfect villain to take this out on. I think youre treading on dangerously moralistically dangerous ground. I agree, the selfrighteousness of them that they should suffer is a little over the top but, like, the sport went through, i think, a really did sting lt period there. You can say there were different infractions in the past and people used greenies and amphetamines and we know all that but the comprehensiveness with which institutionally from the top all the way down, this shot through the sport and destroyed the norms and rules within it was distinct and Something Worthy of accounting. But isnt it opposite of moral relativism to say its immoral to put the weight on the era on mark mcgwire, barry bonds and sammy sosa . The owners arent returning the money, the 2. 5 billion Television Deals and the hundreds of millions of dollars for funding for stadiums that really did grow out of the steroid era. The sport itself does suffer from the Bad Reputation it acquired. So there is a price thats paid in the case of the hall of famers that are not going to be hall of famers because of the writers objections to their steroid using with theyll lose income too. You pay more to have a hauling of fame comment appear at youre memorabilia event or signed card. One of the things thats so interesting is it related back to the cia problem. In from the top to the bottom. If fronts line people, cia interrogators or the Baseball Players taking the juice. And they were supported and facilitated and covered up for by a whole set of structural issues that allowed that continue and then the question is, where is the wreck onning . One of the dangers is wrens fr when you zero in on an individual it looks like hypocrisy but the other solution looks like the solution with the torture era, we cant go after anyone individually so well go after them individually and i think the Baseball Players in not doing that are its better. Im with john on that sort of. Theres a problem in the sense of, its not like the cia where theres memos about everything and you can discover wap with Baseball Players this is endone informally and passing things from locker to locker and we dont have good tests from 1989 to 2004 to judge by. So we little rally dont he. We cant know. So if mike piatsa breaks through. He had over 50 of the vote, whereas the other big names didnt. For those who are not sports guys, hes one of the best power hitting catchers in the history of baseball, hitting catchers many the history of baseball and hes one of the people whos in the grey area. Roger clemens and barry bonds were all sure about what they did but theres a lot of people that have come out and admitted it. Piazza has never said he did but theres this obsession with finding it out. Heres murray chaz, his white whale that hes hunting with the piaz piazza. In baseball hes long been a steroids suspect. All his teammates and anyone else in us his teammates saw his acne covered back welcome a telltale sign of steroids until baseball started to test for steroids and then the acne magically disappeared. Interesting. And then the idea that they wrote about and one of the former teammates of Lance Armstrong wrote about is the idea of a truth and Reconciliation Committee is as a way to deal with this period in the sport. Im barely wearing an [ female announcer ] the only pad made from a revolutionary material. It absorbs up to 55 more. [ woman ] amazing. [ female announcer ] its incredible protection, youll barely feel it. Always infinity. Tell us what you think. Because for every 2 pounds you lose through diet and exercise, alli can help you lose one more by blocking some of the fat you eat. Lets fight fat with alli. Office superstore ink retailer in america. Now get 6 back in staples rewards for every ink cartridge you recycle when you spend 50 on hp ink. Staples. That was easy. Id like to thank eating right, whole grain, multigrain cheerios mom, are those my jeans . [ female announcer ] people who choose more whole grain tend to weigh less than those who dont. Multigrain cheerios talking about doping scandals in Major League Baseball and cycling and the reaction and how to sort of deal with an institution that went through a period where there was a lot of moral rot. I want to be very clear in terms of comparing different institutions. Torture on the moral scale of wrong is way, way, way different than using performanceenhancing drugs. I would never equate the two jous so thats clear but in terms of how an institution deals with what went on within the institution and this is true with wall street and a whole bunch of other things as well and baseball did this thing where they didnt elect anyone to the hall of fame and now the big Lance Armstrong issue. Lance armstrong is fascinating too. The u. S. Doping Agency Issued this comprehensive incredible report and its pretty its only one side of the story. Theres no defense brief to read but Lance Armstrong comes across like a tony soprano thing. Like hes running this criminal enterprise and bringing people into it and like, you start out and then you get Lance Armstrong tells you how to start doping and this is this very corrupting aspect to the whole thing and u. S. Antidoping agency ceo travis tiger said, in regard to the truth and reconciliation process i firmly believe you have to reset the sport and have a cleansing period oord. If not the past continues to drip, drip, drip and will dig itself up, a mixed metaphor. People who doped in the past and it could be the recent past have never been held accountable and more likely they are to continue to dope so as long as theyre still in the sport and many of them are at some levels as athletes, directors, team owner or maybe in the ranks of the cycling governing body, theres less likely to change. Theres something to be said. Were talking about Baseball Players and it might seem somewhat theatrical talking about tony soprano compared to larger issues like drones and malfeasance on wall street but maybe this serves a purpose. Human beings can begin with the visceral. You wuk by a bar and see people watching sports on tv which is alien to me but i see how 30r7b9 these things are to most people, like me at home playing the piano. And Lance Armstrong, is one powerful personality maybe we can go from this to apply this to more abstract, less visceral issues. Theres a lesson to be learned here, i hope. Something i wanted to say is sports are this workingclass past time and sometimes, were talking about a back stages they say sports are a distraction and i think this is exact approximately right. Especially polite liberals and the wonk class could learn from sports fans that an intense desire for fairness can be cleansing. No one is looking at barry bonds and saying hes too big to prosecute in this british bank. Right . In a sense the dirtiest trick youre saying retributional impulse youre seeing from fans. Im saying desire for fairness. When you look at the scandals like too big to fail its the dirtiest trick the democrats played on polite liberals by saying that this corruption, this entrenched corruption, is i identified with the well being of everyone. And you actually have to protect it. You have to protect a giant bank from prosecution or from its own failures. The two big from everyone else. The too big to fail is Major League Baseball. I agree with john but i have a different view. To me theres something dangerous about the narrative that says you clean things up by going after the person at the low end of the chain of command. Thats like saying abu ghraib is about lindy england and not the scale. And thats why i feel passionately about the way sports sends this message for the country. Its like a stalking horse about how were going to look at these different issue eshs and when you have a situation Like Congress does what the former representative tom lance does, the theater of the absurd with the steroid trials and they dont call they call one general manager. Brian sabian of the giants and zero owners. It sends a message. And they break the union. Theres a quote from my book at john mccain going after the players union. So what do you think of the Lance Armstrong thing . Lance armstrong, you really are going after the cop. And then it took some it actually, did, take some risk on the part of the institutional cycling to go after this icon. This guy who was the most successful athlete in his sport in history, a. And b, this amazing story of Beating Cancer and coming back and winning and, c, was a cultural phenomenon. If you look at 2004 campaign footage. John kerry, has a live strong Lance Armstrong yellow bracelet on his arm. There was a time when everybody you ran into in this country had i live strong bracelet on so for them to go back after him not to cut you were in a age where nothing is heroic. Tiger woods went down. Lance armstrong is not a hero. Baseball is a lie. And i mean, i think that for parents of kids who play sports, this whole spectacle has been even more depressing because, i just lived in florida which is a factory for little Football Players and no one talks about the injuries these kids are suffering. The extent to which theyre destroying their growing bodies to play this sport because sports has this great iconography which has become a lie. Like they said in batman die a hero or live long enough to become a villain and with the case of Lance Armstrong its very specific for two reasons. The first is, you read the report and no other athlete has ever been presented with, theres thank you want to bike with me . Theres things you got to do if you bike with me. Its like, did mario puzzo write this. But the second part is like, my goodness. I have relatives that fought through cancer and that rubber bracelet is a bond which makes me feel like Lance Armstrong if they find out he did anything short of drowning puppies and it would be like, ill stand up for Lance Armstrong. More on that after we take a break. With an irregular heartb. The usual, bob . Not today. 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Has oats that can help lower cholesterol . And it tastes good . Sure does wow. Its the honey, it makes it taste so. Well, would you look at the time. Whats the rush . Be happy. Be healthy. Its so great to see you. You, too oh, cloudy glasses. You didnt have to come over actually, honey, i think i did. Oh . You did . Whoa, ladies, easy. Hi. Cascade kitchen counselor. We can help avoid this with cascade complete pacs. See, over time, cascade complete pacs fight film buildup two times better than finish quantum. To help leave glasses sparkling shiny too bad it doesnt work on windows. Okay, im outta here. Cascade. The clear choice. [ bop ] [ bop ] [ bop ] you can do that all you want, i dont like v8 juice. [ male announcer ] how about v8 vfusion. A full serving of vegetables, a full serving of fruit. But what you taste is the fruit. So even you. Couldve had a v8. Lance armstrong is going to appear on oprah on thursdays taping the interview tomorrow. And i think the point you made is really important. In terms of the importance of live strong and what that thent and what that meant to so many people and the thing i said on the break was thats whys kind of amazed and admire the Antidoping Agencys report because if theres anyone thats too being a to fail its Lance Armstrong. You can imagine people when that report was being created or when they were doing it making the same argument about they like made about the banks. If you hurt people youre cutting off the funds to his charity which does really important work. You know what i mean . And yet, they did it anyway because, i think to their credit, theres a genuinely desire for accountability and i think thats what michael says about how sports pulls out that part of us that hates cheating. But a part of us that, and im going to be alone on this to say said, musada, the Antidoping Agency got millions of dollars of taxpayer money to go after someone thats not been a competitive cyclist for five years, hadnt won a Tour De France in five or six years so i think its worth stepping back and saying given where we are in a country is this where we want our resources and obsessions to rely . Federal agents look at cyclists like theyre the crotchedy Old Testament part of me that sees no one get punished for anything for years says yes get Lance Armstrong. And i think you and i differ on this but i think theres something really important ant that and then theres the question of, what do you do about the sport now . Right . Thats the thing, too. If you the reason why they havent awarded any of the seven Tour De Frances to the secondsplace winners is because seven winners have been implicated. This is more about our becoming sort of one community. The internet must have something to do with this in that we would reach this fever pitch and have this kinds of reform. That doesnt have any capitalist motive. It seems to be an uptick in whats considered in morality in this prosecuting the cheating. Its wonderful and it wouldnt have happened before and im hoping it starts with baseball, god love baseball, and then blooish move move o to other things. Baseball needs to get more specific. Fred mcgriff, great slugger, first baseman, no evidence that he ever took steroids, he went through his career hitting 30 homers and 100 rbis and should be hall and has been caught up in this sweeping year punishment. What to know for the news week ahead coming up. Nicen easy with Colorblend Technology gives expert highlights and lowlights. For color thats true to you. I dont know how she does it. With nicen easy, all they see is you. Nothing. Are you stealing our Daughters School supplies and taking them to work . No, i was just looking for my stapler and my. This thing. I save money by using fedex ground and buy my own supplies. Thats a great idea. Im going to go. We got clients in today. [ male announcer ] save on ground shipping at fedex office. I have direct deposit on my visa prepaid. My paycheck is loaded right on my card. Automatic. I am not going downtown standing in line to cash it. I know where my money is, because it is in my pocket. I got more time with my daughter, we got places to go. [ freeman ] go open a new world, with visa prepaid. More people go with visa. Fiber one. Uh, forgot jacks cereal. [ jack ] whats for breakfast . Um. Try the number one yeah, this is pretty good. [ male announcer ] over a third of a days fiber. Fiber one. In just a moment, what you should know for the week ahead. Nominations for this years aadd my awards this week and the list included several films we talked about on the show. Congratulations in order to those involved and the remarkable ground biking how to survive a play how to surviv plague. And best adapted screen play, one of lincolns 12 nods. And zero dark thirty, received five nominations including best film. And well update you on a story we discussed yesterday. The possibility that the Treasury Department could, under a little known statute, could make a platinum coin and deposit it to the Federal Reserve to step aside of a fight with the debt ceiling and and after the Treasury Department issued a statement saying that quote, neither the Treasury Department nor the Federal Reserve believes the law can or should be used to facilitate the production of platinum coins to avoid the increase in the debt limit. And finally a quick personal update, ill be in baltimore on wednesday to talk about my book twilight of the elites. A chapter about the steroids era in baseball and ill be at pratt library. And you should know Aaron Schwartz has died of suicide at age 26. His body was found in his apartment on friday. Aaron was one of those naturally brilliant precocious hackers who at the age of 14 codeveloped the syndication of rss web protocol and is a key component of the we bes infrastructure. He founded a company to merge with a user generated social site which is one of the most highly trafficked. Reviewed doz. He wrote beautifully and prolifically. He worked with Progressive Change Committee and founded demand progress to keep the internet open and free and the battle to stop and defeat online pirate si act. He created the ice ensing system so many on the internet use. We were fellows for ethics. We would grab lunch, talk politics and ideas and he would talk about books he was planning on writing. He was a 20th century nerd renaissance man. He suffered from depression. He wrote of depression in a post titled sick. Perhaps you have been sad. Your face falls, perhaps you cry. You wonder if its worth going on. Everything you think about seems bleak. The things you have done, the things you hope to do. The people around you. Depressed mood is like that. It doesnt come for any reason or go either. Go get fresh air, cuddle with a loved one. You dont feel better. Upset of feeling the joy everyone else seems to feel. Everything is colored by sadness. If you are depressed, you are not alone. There are millions of people suffering from depression and help is available. You should note the time of his death, he was being prosecuted by the federal government and 1 million in fines for the crime of, i am not exaggerating, downloading too many free articles. Aaron had used a computer script to massively download articles he had legitimate access to, almost 5 million in all with the intent to make them free to call. He never did. Federal prosecutors dropped a staggering 13 count felony on him for his actions. In a statement about his death, aarons family and partner wrote, his death is not a simple tragedy. Its the product of the criminal justice system. Decisions made by officials in a massachusetts u. S. Attorneys office at m. I. T. Contributed to his death. Its a reason to revisit the 1986 computer abuse act. The law is far too broad and a good time to take a hard look at massachusetts u. S. Attorney who prosecuted him with reckless disproportion vigor and contemplating a run for governor. We are going to miss you. We are going to miss your mind, righteous heart and sensitive soul. I want to find out what my guests think we should know for the week coming up. Joy. Conservatives are discovering that ronald reagan, the pay troll saint of all things conservative committed an act they are outraged about. In 1967 when he was governor signing the mullford act to this wart the black panthers from armed patrols and banned the carrying of weapons or guns. M mullford was a man who represented uc berkeley. They tried to evict antiwar proteste protesters. He believed they were communists and perverts. Fascinating entangled roots of gun control. Theres irony. Every year there is a controversial super bowl ad. You should know this year it will be for a Company Called soda stream. They carbonate beverages. Its an Israeli Company that exists. The factory exists in the occupy its an illegal settlement in the west bank. This is already leading to a lot of protests that this commercial is going to be played in the super bowl since its on an illegal settlement. Theres a protest in washington, d. C. Against soda stream and counter protest by those supporting soda stream and having them on illegal settlements in the west bank. It will show up on the largest possible station in the United States, the super bowl. Something to look out for, john . Its interesting. Looking at the story of the Obama Administration and women got me thinking of women in the arts and the different statistics. We have tina fey and amy poehler hosting the awards. The upcoming premier of the girl series on hbo. Last time, there were five women in the top ten and three women i think its a good thing, too, even if we have discrepancies to make up for. I recommend everyone go to the New York Times and find a series being done on gifted and talented programs in new york city schools. Theres no one lesson to be drawn from this. Its a fascinating portrait of a system within a system whether you believe its segregated by merit or on race. Read the reporting. What they have found is that every time a new task is introduced to resolve the problem of Racial Disparities they increase. I have a whole chapter in my book about the school i went to, a gifted and talented high school here in new york about this issue. Thats been fantastic. I want to thank joy reed, dave from the nation, john from Columbia University and michael from the american conservative magazine. Thank you all. Thank you for joining us. Well be back next weekend at 8 00 eastern time. Well be on the first road trip in washington, d. C. For the run up to president obamas second inauguration. We will talk to members of the congress and the civil rights activists. Well deliver the invocation for president obamas inauguration. Next is Melissa Harris perry. She explores what is next for the gun debate. Is it a mark of victory for women in a field dominated by men . Its Melissa Harris perry. See you next week on up. [ rosa ] im rosa and i quit smoking with chantix. When the doctor told me that i could smoke for the first week. Im like. Yeah, ok. Little did i know that one week later i wasnt smoking. [ male announcer ] along with support, chantix is proven to help people quit smoking. It reduces the urge to smoke. 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