Transcripts For MSNBCW The Rachel Maddow Show 20200904

Known him since she was a little kid. And there was a lot in the book that was honestly sort of more flesh on the bones of stuff that we already had an inkling of when it comes to this president. Mary trump provided new detail, for example, about alleged financial crimes by the president and tax fraud by the president. New detail about racist and sexist stuff from him. New detail about displays of cruelty from him over the course of his life. The book was full of alarming information. Thats why it sold so widely. But ill tell you, reading it, what i felt reading it is that a lot of the worst stuff in the book, frankly, it did sort of fit the general contours of what wed already come to learn about the president over his time in public life. It gave us more detail. It gave us further anecdotes that bolstered what we might have already known for a lot of the big stuff. That said, there were a few things in mary trumps book that stood out as absolutely new, and at least when i read the book for the first time, just disconnected from anything i had previously known about him, including this passage i want to share with you, a short passage from chapter 11 of mary trumps book. Its a scene where mary and her brother fritz are talking with their uncle robert. Their uncle robert is the president s brother who just recently died. And in this scene in the book, mary and fritz are talking with their uncle robert about money, about the money in the family. The president s father, the profoundly rich fred trump sr. , mary and fritzs grandfather, had just died, and mary and her brother had learned that they were being basically cut out of the will, and theyre having a conversation about it. And this is how mary trump relays that conversation. Quote, at our first meeting, when we asked our uncle robert to explain why my grandfather had done what he had, he said, listen, your grandfather didnt give a bleep about you and not just you. He didnt give a bleep about any of his grandchildren. Were being treated worse because our father died, i said. This is in marys voice. Thats mary talking. She says, quote, when we pointed out that our cousins, who were also grandchildren of fred, they would still benefit from the money their parents were getting, uncle robert said, any of them could be disowned at any time. Donny, meaning donald trump jr. , was going to join the army or some bull bleep like that, and donald and ivana told him if he did, they would disown him in a second. Thats from chapter 11 of mary trumps recent book about her uncle, the president. She said there was family discussion on this matter, that President Trump told his son, don junior, that he would be disowned from the trump family if he committed the grave sin of enlisting in the u. S. Military. And like i said, a lot of mary trumps book fit the contours of what we knew or suspected about this president and what hes like, but that did not. That stood out as a whole new idea. And i asked mary trump about it, and im about to show you a portion of my interview with mary trump on that subject that has never aired before. Watch. In terms of what americans should take from this, i feel like youve defined some things in his upbringing that are psychologically interesting in terms of us figuring out who he is and why he might think the way that he did. But theres also some things that you describe that i think he would see as contrary to the public image that he has created. For example, there is an anecdote that you share in the book where you say that your cousin donny, donald trump jr. , had apparently at one point planned to or said he might enlist in the army, and it was relayed to you that your uncle, the president , had told him that he would be disinherited if he enlisted . Yeah. My uncle robert told me that story. Do you think its true, or did you ever have any corroboration of it . I i have had no corroboration, but i i believe it. There was literally no reason for him to make such a thing up. Its a pretty specific thing to lie about. Its striking because your father has made a big deal out of the fact that he went to a militarythemed boarding school, and you write about that decision within the family that he should go after that school to sort of give him some discipline at some point, and it seems to have not really worked. But he has built that up as a sign of his respect for the military, his purported respect for the military. So the idea that he would go to a militarythemed school and that would be a source of pride, but his son wanting to join the actual military would be a source of shame and would be something that should be punished, thats quite a right. Thats just quite a disconnect. Yeah. I mean, just to be clear, my uncle, not my dad. Yes. Sorry. There is a great disconnect. No, no problem. Theres a real disconnect there. And then, you know, donalds later doing everything in his power and my grandfather is doing everything in his power to make sure that donald did not have to serve. So im not entirely sure i know how to explain it. Im not entirely sure i know how to explain it, she says. What shes referring to there in terms of doing everything in their power to make sure that donald didnt have to serve, that, i think, is a reference to the multiple deferments that President Trump got during the vietnam era for supposedly having bone spurs in his feet even though those didnt seem to bother any other aspect of his life, including his active athletic career. But mary trump, thats her talking about this anecdote that she discloses in her recent book, where she says it was discussed openly in her family that her uncle, President Trump, wouldnt allow his son to join the military upon pain of being disowned. And that, to me, reading mary trumps book, was new, which is why i asked her about it. I did screw up in the way i asked her the question. I described the president s behavior as if that was her father. The president is obviously her uncle, not her father, so she had to correct me there. But that anecdote has kind of stuck with me because it seems strange. And i have since realized that it tracks with Something Else thats been reported from the president s life, something reported last summer by Gabriel Sherman at vanity fair. He reported that a source had passed to him what appears to be a copy of the president s prenup, a prenuptial agreement he signed with one of his wives, marla maples, before he agreed to marry her. This was after his first marriage to ivana trump, with whom he had don junior and eric and ivanka, before he married his second wife, marla maples, though, she had already given birth to their child, their daughter tiffan and, i know, who cares. I even hate talking about this stuff. But what is relevant here is that baby tiffany was already on the scene when the president signed this prenuptial agreement with marla maples about what the financial settlement would be between them if their marriage didnt work out. And now in retrospect, there is a part of that that stands out as well like the rockets red glare. This is from gabe shermans reporting last summer. Quote, more than anything, the prenup shows how fiercely trump wanted to protect the money he did have. Marla maples reportedly wanted 25 million if the marriage failed, but trump agreed to pay her only 1 million if they separated within five years, plus another 1 million to buy a house. The agreement also states that trumps 100,000 Child Support payments for tiffany would cease if tiffany got a fulltime job or enlisted in the military. Ms. Maples agreed to these terms with the hope that trump would renegotiate a better deal in five years. He reportedly signed a legal document that would end Child Support payments to his youngest daughter specifically if she joined the military. And per mary trumps book that came out this summer, that tracks pretty perfectly with family discussion over him threatening to disown his oldest son if he joined the military as well. And that history, of course, is, you know, uncomfortable alongside the president s constant efforts to associate himself with the military and wanting military parades held in his honor and all the rest of it. But its also just its also just a little bit strange, right, just as a human thing to do. I mean, parents, of course, worry about the safety of their son or daughter if their son or daughter is going to sign up for the military and might end up going off to war. We all understand that. But we all also understand that military families on the whole are immensely proud of their sons and their daughters who serve. My dads a vet. Im hugely proud of them. My cousins are vets. Im hugely proud of them and thankful for their service. Threatening your kids that theyll be cut off and no longer your kid if they enlist . Its just not a its not a normal thing, especially for somebody who is so loud now in proclaiming how much he loves the military more than anybody else in the whole country. Well, now, tonight, the yuck factor here has come into pretty gross focus with a just jawdropping new piece by reporter Jeffrey Goldberg that was just published at the atlantic. Its something thats not gory, but it will turn your stomach, and it really does put the focus on something odd and curdled and wrong at the center of this. You see the headline. Trump says americans who die in war are losers and suckers. Quote, when President Trump donald trump canceled a visit to the aisnemarne American Cemetery near paris in 2018, he blamed rain for the lastminute decision, saying that the helicopter couldnt fly and that the secret service wouldnt drive him there. Neither claim was true. Trump rejected the idea of the visit to that American Cemetery and memorial because he feared his hair would become disheveled in the rain and because he did not believe it important to honor american wardead, according to four people with firsthand knowledge of the discussion that day. In a conversation with senior Staff Members on the morning of the scheduled visit, trump said, quote, why should i go to that cemetery . Its filled with losers. In a separate conversation on the same trip, trump referred to the more than 1,800 u. S. Marines who lost their lives at belleau wood as, quote, suckers for getting killed. Belleau wood is a consequential battle in American History and the ground on which it was fought is venerated by the u. S. Marine corps. America and its allies stopped the german advance toward paris there in the spring of 1918. Trump, on that same trip, asked staffers, quote, who were the good guys in this war . He also said he didnt understand why the u. S. Would intervene on the side of the allies. So per Jeffrey Goldbergs reporting tonight in the atlantic, thats the president telling staffers he doesnt know which side we should retroactively root for from world war i, the side with america on it or the german side. Again, this is the piece just published tonight in the atlantic magazine. Reporter Jeffrey Goldberg saying he pursued this line of inquiry about the president s statements and feelings about the military in part because the president never really paid a price for disparaging the family of a u. S. Army captain killed in iraq, the family of humayun khan, and also he never really paid a price for saying this about senator john mccain, who whatever you think of his politics, inarguably is an american war hero for having been held for five years as a prisoner of war in vietnam. Hes not a war hero. Hes a war hero. Hes a war hero because he was captured. I like people that werent captured, okay . I hate to tell you. Jeffrey goldberg in the atlantic tonight says that hes been fascinated with the president s take on this matter because he didnt ever pay a political price for those strange comments and those strange attacks to make on american war hero and the family of an american war hero. Goldberg says tonight, quote, there was no precedent in american politics for the expression of this sort of contempt. But the performatively patriotic trump did no damage to his candidacy by attacking mccain in this matter, nor did he set his campaign back by attacking the parents of humayun khan, an army captain who was killed in iraq in 2004. But trump remain fixated on mccain. When mccain died in 2018, trump told his senior staff according to three sources with direct knowledge of this event, quote, were not going to support that losers funeral. He became furious, according to witnesses, when he saw flags lowered to halfstaff. What the eff are we doing that for . The guy was an effing loser, the president told staffers. Trumps understanding of heroism has not evolved since he became president. According to sources with knowledge of the president s views, he seems to genuinely not understand why americans treat former prisoners of war with respect nor does he understand why pilots who are shot down in combat are honored by the military. On at least two occasions since becoming president , according to three sources with direct knowledge of his views, President Trump referred to former president george h. W. Bush as a, quote, loser for being shot down by the japanese as a navy pilot in world war ii. The former president bush escaped capture, but eight other men shot down during the same mission were caught, tortured, and executed by japanese soldiers. President trumps cynicism about service and heroism extends even to the world war i dead buried outside paris, people who were killed more than a quarter century before he was born. President trump finds the notion of military service difficult to understand and the idea of volunteering to serve especially incomprehensible. On memorial day in 2017, trump visited Arlington National cemetery, a short drive from the white house. He was accompanied on this visit by john kelly, who was then secretary of Homeland Security and who a short time later would be named white house chief of staff. The two men, trump and kelly, were set to visit section 60, the 14acre area of arlington that is the Burial Ground for those killed in americas most recent wars. John kellys son robert is buried in section 60. A First Lieutenant in the marine corps, kelly was killed in 2010 in afghanistan. He was 29 years old, and President Trump was meant on this visit to join john kelly in paying respects at his sons grave and to comfort the families of other Fallen Service members. But according to sources with knowledge of the visit, trump, while standing by robert kellys grave, turned directly to kellys father and said, quote, i dont get it. What was in it for them . John kelly, who declined to comment for this story, initially believed, people close to him said, that trump was making a hamhanded reference to the selflessness of americas allvolunteer force. But later he came to realize that trump simply does not understand nontransactional life choices. One of kellys friends, a retired fourstar general, tells goldberg, quote, he cant fathom the idea of doing something for other than himself. He just thinks anyone who does anything when theres no direct personal gain is a sucker. Theres no money in serving the nation. Kellys friend went to say, quote, trump cant imagine anyone elses pain. Thats why he would say this to the father of a Fallen Marine on memorial day in the cemetery where hes buried. Goldberg says, quote, ive asked numerous general officers over the past year for their analysis of trumps seeming contempt for military service. They offer a number of explanations. Some of his cynicism is rooted in frustration. Trump unlike previous president s tends to believe that the military like other departments of the federal government is beholden only to him and not the constitution. Many have expressed trumps understanding of the rules governing the use of armed forces. Another explanation is more quotidian. The president believes that nothing is worth doing without the promise of monetary payback and that talented people who dont pursue riches are losers. According to eyewitnesses, after one White House Briefing given by then chairman of the joint chiefs of staff general joe dunford, trump turned to staffers and said, quote, that guy is smart. Why did he join the military . Yet another related explanation concerns what appears to be trumps pathological fear of appearing to look like a sucker himself. His capacious definition of sucker includes those who lose their lives in service to their country as well as those who are taken prisoner or are wounded in battle. One officer with firsthand knowledge of trumps views said, quote, he has a lot of fear. Several observers told me that trump is deeply anxious about dying or being disfigured, and this worry manifests itself as disgust for those who have suffered. Trump recently claimed that he has received the bodies of slain servicemembers many, many times, but, in fact, hes traveled to Dover Air Force base, the transfer point for the remains of Fallen Servicemembers, only four times since becoming president. Trump has been for the duration of his presidency fixated on staging military parades but only of a certain sort. In a 2018 white house planning meeting for such an event, trump asked his staff not to include wounded veterans on grounds that spectators would feel uncomfortable in the presence of amputees. Quote, no one wants to see that, he said. Thats Jeffrey Goldberg writing in the atlantic tonight. The white house has responded to the publication of this story by calling the story, quote, false and, quote, a disgrace. They say, quote, just another anonymously sourced story meant to tear down a commander in chief who loves our military, which is kind of what youd expect from the white house for a story this bad. But Jeffrey Goldberg at the atlantic very quickly got some important backup here on his reporting. Veteran military Affairs Reporter James Laporta, who now writes for the Associated Press, posted this within 90 meants of Jeffrey Goldbergs article going live. Quote, a Senior Defense Department Official i just spoke with confirmed this story by Jeffrey Goldberg in its entirety, especially the graphs about the late senator john mccain and former marine general john kelly. That reporter, James Laporta, who says he has confirmed all of this reporting tonight, he joins us next, as does a combat veteran former air force helicopter pilot who was shot down while serving in afghanistan. She has had a blistering response to this from the president tonight. Thats all ahead. Stay with us. Unnerving report from Jeffrey Goldberg at the atlantic, revealing that President Trump has described members of the armed forces who have died in battle as losers and suckers. Among the revelations in goldbergs piece is that upon learning of the passing of the late senator john mccain, trump vowed that the white house would not support his funeral, calling him a, quote, effing loser. The story also says that trump insulted the service of the late son of former white house chief of staff john kelly while literally standing at his grave. Following the release of that upsetting reporting tonight from the atlantic, a. P. Reporter James Laporta, who is very, very well sourced as a military Affairs Reporter, James Laporta tweeted out this in support of goldbergs reporting. He says, quote, a Senior Defense Department Official i just spoke with confirmed this story by Jeffrey Goldberg in its entirety, especially the paragraphs about the late senator mccain and former general john kelly. Joining us now is James Laporta, Investigative Reporter for the Associated Press. I should tell you he is also himself a u. S. Marine corps veteran. James, thank you very much for being with us tonight. I appreciate you making time on short notice. Thank you for having me. So the white house instantly responded to Jeffrey Goldbergs piece at the atlantic tonight by decrying it as false, saying that it was made up and that these Anonymous Sources are the giveaway that this is false reporting just meant to smear the president. But to hear you tell it, youve backed up what goldberg has reported and youve got your own sources who say this is really what happened. Thats correct. When i initially tweeted out, i had one Senior Defense Department Official, and i now have a second who is described as a u. S. Marine corps officer, who is also in a senior position, who was also briefed on some of the same things that are in this story. They are quite shocking, especially you know, ive got to admit, when i first saw it, i actually lie didnt believe it, which is why i started reaching out to sources, especially the parts about belleau wood are quite you got to understand something about marines, is belleau wood is one of those things that is sort of hammered into Young Marines as theyre going through boot camp. I mean, marine corps folklore comes out of belleau wood. The idea that the german army called marines devil dog, the fifth and sixth marine regiments where a french protege to remember that battle more than 1,800 marines that died there. So, that was quite shocking. This was quite surprising to see tonight. I mean, its to hear the president denigrate the i mean, 1,800plus marines lost at belleau wood with that incredibly storied and sanctified history in the u. S. Military as you describe it, jim, but also a sort of insight into the president consistently denigrating both service and sacrifice that i think that a lot of americans who may have mixed feelings about the you know, the deployment of u. S. Military forces around the world and whether or not were always fighting the right wars, even people who have a difference of opinion with that, i feel like its almost universal that everybody has respect and gratitude for anybody who has served in uniform who has been wounded, who has put their life on the line whork has risked their life for this country and shed blood because of it. For the president to find that to be an especially distasteful or negative form of service that should be thats something that he doesnt want to be around, ive just ive never come across that in human life, let alone in a military in a commander in chief or any sort of u. S. Leader. I just have to ask you in all your reporting, jim, have you ever heard of anybody ever being described as having those sorts of revulsions . To be honest, i havent. You know, its sort of telling. You know, if we can go back to the original comments that he made about the late senator john mccain, you know, at that point in time, one could at least politically sort of brush it off as, you know, maybe he made the comments about senator john mccain and, you know, hes not a real war hero simply for the fact that he didnt like the guy. He disagreed with his politics, right . Okay. And military veterans still voted for him. You know, i saw both at that time frame, i saw both republican and democrat both condemn those comments, but okay. But now we have more examples, more of the same. And its not its not as simple as, you know, the president doesnt like someones politics, you know. I dont know what this is going to do within the military veteran culture, but what i can say is i do know that there was a recent military times poll that just came out a few days ago, and it showed that nearly half of respondents had an unfavorable view of the president. You know, about 42 said they strongly disapproved of President Trumps time in service and are more willing now to vote for former Vice President biden over President Trump. So what i will be really interested to see is how does this change the dynamic in terms of, you know, veterans who are moderate republicans. Aza going to is it going to swing a vote over to the democratic side, or, you know, do the hardliners sort of stay in place . Thats whats going to be interesting for me. James laporta, investigative interesting for me. James laporta, investigative . Thats whats going to be interesting for me. James laporta, Investigative Reporter for the Associated Press, judgment marine corps veteran, and who has independently validated with his multiple sources tonight, this reporting by Jeffrey Goldberg in the atlantic about the president denigrating u. S. Service members, particularly those who have been wounded. Thank you for joining us on short notice. I appreciate it. I know youre right in the middle of reporting this out yourself. Thank you. Thank you. This story today, as it broke this evening, also earned a response from a woman named mj hager. Shes the democratic nominee for u. S. Senate in texas. This is what she had to say in response to goldberg posting this reporting at the atlantic tonight. She says, quote, im one of the pilots that got shot down. Our commander in chief thinks that makes me a loser. He thinks the many friends i lost and soldiers i medevacked were suckers. This is disgraceful. Donald trump is unfit to be commander in chief. Mj hegar is somebody who has a National Profile right now because she is running against incumbent senator john cornyn in texas. But as she mentioned, she has been in harder fights than that. As a helicopter pilot, she served three tours in afghanistan. She flew combat rescue missions. Her chopper was shot down in afghanistan, hit by taliban fire. She was wounded. She received the purple heart for her injuries. She received the distinguished flying cross with valor for saving the lives of her crew and patients when she was shot down. If this reporting tonight bears out, and there are now two reporters that say that it does with multiple sources, mj hegar is one of the americans the president is deriding as a sucker and a loser for risking her life for the country. Im pleased to welcome to the show tonight Democratic Texas candidate m. J. H hegar. Thanks very much for joining us. I really appreciate it. Thank you, rachel. Its not easy to hear you know, to speak on tv after hearing these things frankly. Im having a very physical and visceral response to the reporting because as a medevac pilot, i medevacked so many wounded and dying and dead patriots that have served this country, both republicans and democrats by the way. You know, this isnt a political thing for me. This is about when our men and women in uniform put their lives on the line, when we put our lives on the line, we can only do so with a clear mind for the mission because we are trusting the people that have put us there. And so for me this is not about politics. I would be calling out a democrat who said the same things. Ive never heard anyone, democrat or republican, say these types of things. But i think its especially critical when were talking about a commander in chief who has employing troops at his fingertips. It does put into context things like stories about russian bounties and some of the Foreign Policy, you know, decisions gutting the state department, which is the military front line of defense, robbing from the military budget to build a border wall. You know, so it does put some of these things into context, but it sounds to me like a highly insecure person. Maybe its because i have toddlers and so ive grown to understand how to recognize a bully and understand the deep level of insecurity that creates a bully. Thats what this sounds like to me. Its somebody who is damn lucky that those of us who have put the uniform on to sacrifice for this country have done so because that puts him in a position to have the freedom to make these types of statements. And the men and women in uniform will fight and die for his right to express his opinions. All we ask is that the people who send us into harms way are doing so with a clear mind and a true heart and are doing it as a last resort and are doing it with the respect for the sacrifices that we make. The profound disrespect specifically for the sacrifice is the thing that i cant get over here. And Jeffrey Goldberg is a very good reporter. He says that he has four sources who heard the president say, why should i go to that cemetery . It is filled with losers. Four sources in a separate conversation on the same trip heard the president refer to the more than 1,800 marines who lost their lives at belleau wood, refer to them as suckers for getting killed. And i know you say this is not political and you say you would be equally critical of any democrat or republican who said things like this. Ive just never heard a human being say things like this in any context. The idea that the specific act of, like you, being wounded while serving your country or, god forbid, dying while serving your country, that makes you less. That makes you repulsive. That makes you unworthy of respect. Ive just this is completely foreign to any idea of human empathy but also just human the range of emotion i can understand. Have you ever heard anything like it before . I feel like we should be asking a psychologist where this comes from frankly. I think that its projection. I think that hes been so rejected. You know, weve seen him attacking transgender troops who are trying to serve our country and acting like theyre not good enough. And i say that it has to come from a place where he knows hes not good enough. He would never make it as a pilot. He would never make it shot down behind enemy lines. He would i wont go into the details of the things i think he would do under duress, but i will say even though it isnt political, you mentioned something critical in your reporting, which is that and goldberg did in his reporting, that hes gotten away with it. He hasnt been held accountable. Who is there to hold him accountable . Its us, rachel. This is on us. This is this is a call to action for every patriot across the country to answer the call, for gods sake, and do something about this, not only to vote, but to bring five people with you to vote, to volunteer for campaigns, to make your voices heard. We in the military are trained not to make our politics heard because we have to serve multiple parties, commanders, and chiefs. So, its pretty extraordinary, you know, for generals to be speaking out. Its difficult for me to run for office and make my politics known because its going against years of training to keep my mouth shut about such things. But the time is now to stand up for the next generation putting on the uniform. And if we dont send a resounds message that this is unacceptable and we send that message at the polls, were going to see that this is not going to be unique. Right now i cant think of anyone else whos done this. But if he gets away with this, were going to see more examples of this, i believe. Mj hegar, thank you so much for joining us and giving us your perspective on this tonight. Its absolutely flabbergasting, and i appreciate it when you say its hard to find the words. You certainly did, but this is just remarkable stuff. Thank you so much. Thank you so much, rachel, for the attention to it. Ill tell you that just while i was speaking with major hegar there, we have just had a response from Vice President joe biden to this new reporting, which is, it will curl your hair. I will have that for you when we come back. Stay with us. We miss you. Its totally not the same without you. We miss your lets do this look, the sound of your laugh cry screams, and how you make every day here the best day ever. We cant wait to get you back so weve added temp checks, face coverings, social distancing and extra sanitizing to get the good times going again. Were finally back. And cant wait until you are too. Buy now and get two days free at the parks. Restrictions apply. Were getting continued reaction tonight to this reporting in the atlantic tonight from Jeffrey Goldberg. Their piece is titled trump americans who died in war are losers and suckers. Goldberg reciting several anecdotes with multiple sources for each of them in which the president is said to have derided u. S. Servicemembers who have died in combat as losers and suckers and who expressed, even standing over the grave of john kellys son, who died in afghanistan at age 29, that he doesnt get why americans would choose to serve in the military. The Associated Press has just posted James Laportas new piece as well confirming the core reporting for Jeffrey Goldbergs piece tonight in the atlantic. Laporta confirming it, again, with multiple sources just as goldberg has. Weve just had response in from Vice President joe biden with a statement in response. Quote, if the revelations in todays atlantic article are true, they are yet another marker of how deeply President Trump and i disagree about the role of the president of the united states. Ive long said that as a nation we have many obligations, but we have only one truly sacred obligation, to prepare and equip those we send into harms way and to care for them and their families both while theyre deployed and after they return home. Thats the foundation of what jill and i believe. Its why weve always prioritized the health and wellbeing of our service members, veterans and military families. We have visited troops coming home wounded in walter reed. Weve hosted wounded veterans in our home to share a thanksgiving meal, and as the proud parents of a son who served in iraq, we families. We have visited troops coming home wounded in walter reed. Weve hosted wounded veterans in our home to share a thanksgiving meal, and as the proud parents of a son who served in iraq, we have made supporting military spouses, caregivers, and children a focus of our service. Generations of american troops have shed blood around the world in defense of our freedoms and to protect u. S. Vital interests from the front lines of our own revolution to belleau wood, to the normandy beaches, to the mountains of afghanistan, the sacrifice and bravery of our troops and their willingness to serve our nation should be honored. Duty, honor, country, those are the values that drive our service members. Those are the values that have formed the core of americas defense for centuries, and if i have the honor of serving as the next commander in chief, i will ensure that our american heroes know that i will have their back and honor their sacrifice always. Response tonight from Vice President joe biden. We will continue to keep our eyes open for further response tonight as this is causing just uproar across the country. Well be right back. Well be right back. This is the latest from pulitzer prizewinning science journalist Laurie Garrett, somebody who has been speaking the hard truths about covid from the very beginning of the pandemic. In light of this weeks double take strange announcement from the Trump Administration that they want states to have Vaccine Distribution centers ready to go by november 1st, two days before the election, even though no vaccines are yet available, Laurie Garrett says, quote, i have no confidence that a safe, effective vaccine will be ready for use by halloween. Worse, i can no longer recommend that anyone retain faith in any Public Health pronouncements issued by government agencies. With the administrations mass vaccination date less than 58 days away, states must scramble to submit their immunization scheme to the cdc for approval by october 1st, covering everything from logistics and personnel to Public Education and recruitment. Officials insist no corners are being cut, but the timetable is simply too short for full safety analysis of any vaccine. Its hard to comprehend the decision as anything but an election maneuver. Joining us now is Health Policy analyst and pulitzer prizewinning science journalist Laurie Garrett. Laurie, thank you so much for making time for us this evening. I know youre in the middle of a lot of stuff. Yes, i am. I most definitely am. Im also noticing that my lights are not bright enough for you. Oh, well. Im in the dark. Its all right. Actually, if we tell everybody to squint a little bit, we kind of look the same. One of the things that alarmed me in your piece today on Foreign Policy is that you describe the status right now of all of the multiple vaccine efforts that are under way around the world, including the most promising ones, and it seems like its sort of cause for alarm that theres no standard promulgated by the fda or by anybody for comparing the relative effectiveness and safety of the various vaccines that are all being explored. This is a huge point, and im so glad that you caught it because its easy to overlook. We dont have any we dont have any real standard that any company is required to use to measure the efficacy of their product. So every company has their own tests, their own ways of saying, oh, we raised tcell response as measured by this, you know, standard. But no two companies are using exactly the same standards, and so what we have is a hodgepodge of information that is often released in Public Relations releases, not in sophisticated scientific journals, and its very hard even for people whose fulltime gig is making vaccines, who have years and years of experience. Its still hard for them to understand and compare the various vaccines. Laurie, you describe even the frontrunning vaccines, including some products in development in the uk and from some american companies, as still signing up volunteers for their clinical trials, which are expected to involve at least 30,000 people per potential vaccine. For somebody who knows these things very well, both in terms of pandemics and in terms of vaccine development, can you explain to our viewers what that means in terms of the expected timing, when a vaccine thats proven both effective and safe might reasonably appear on the scene and be ready to be distributed given where they are in the pipeline right now in terms of development . Right. So, first of all, all the frontrunning vaccines require two doses, and they have to be separated by at least a week, in some cases two weeks. So, the first thing is youve got to get 30,000 people or more and divide them between the Placebo Group and the vaccine group, and thats all blinded, and it has to be handled very carefully so that no one involved knows whos who. Then you give them their first vaccine. You wait two weeks. You come back. You give them the second vaccine. And then you wait for their natural exposure event. Are they or are they not in some location where theres a lot of covid floating around and theyre likely to get exposed . Then you compare. You bring all of them back. You look at all of their data and you compare and see did the vaccine work, did it protect people. And you see that by virtue of comparing the placebo arm and the vaccine arm and saying, you know, the vaccine arm got 10 less covid or 100 less covid. That is what youd really like. Now, all of this takes time. And if a Company Still hasnt even enrolled 30,000 people for their study, theyre certainly not going to be ready to start poking people in the arms real soon and wait two weeks for the next round. So, just looking at the math and the timing, its very, very hard to imagine how you get to halloween with all your results done. In fact, the big meeting that has been announced for assessing available vaccines at fda is october 22nd. So, its less time than waiting until november 1st. Its really close. And, laurie, i mean, given what you have seen from the fda and from other u. S. Health agencies within the Trump Administration over the course of this epidemic, do you think its possible that they really are going to try to roll something out on november 1st for maximum political effect even if it hasnt met the kind of thresholds you would expect in terms of safety and efficacy that the fda would usually serve as a gatekeeper for . Do you think that the fda would allow this to proceed in a way that wouldnt be safe . Well, at least two top officials working inside the fda, not the head of it but below, have said they will resign if a vaccine is rolled out prematurely, where theres inadequate information to certify its safety and its efficacy. I just dont see how you can possibly get to november 1st just looking at where all the products are in the pipeline right now and say, yeah, we know its safe. For one thing, there are many types of side effects associated with vaccines over the last 40 years that dont turn up right away, that may take some time to be noted. And more importantly, there are ones that statistically are so rare that a sample of 30,000 people would probably not catch statistically catch that side effect. For example, this paralyzing guillainbarre syndrome which forced cessation of the 1976 swine Influenza Vaccination Campaign ordered by president gerald ford, that appeared in 1 out of 10 million recipients. So a sample pool of 30,000 is very unlikely to spot something that rare. Laurie garrett, Health Policy analyst, pulitzer prizewinning science journalist. Laurie, thank you for helping us understand this this evening. You are a very good explainer. Thank you for being with us. Thank you, rachel. Also were going to post at maddow blog tonight a link to a really good oped piece today in the New York Times by rick perlstein, historian rick perlstein, about that experience in 1976 with the swine flu vaccination that seems to have been rolled out prematurely on a political timeline and what went so wrong there. Thats what laurie just referenced there. Well post that on maddowblog. Com. Stay with us. Well be right back. That is going to do it for us tonight. One thing to watch for on tomorrows news. Theres going to be an emergency nato meeting tomorrow about what appears to be another assassination attempt by russia. A russian nerve agent has now been identified as the toxin that has put russian opposition figure Alexei Navalny in a coma. Nato is going to hold an emergency meeting to come up with a response to that tomorrow, which means that there will likely be an expression of nato criticizing russia tomorrow, which in our country means what . Trump pulls us out of nato tomorrow in response . Yeah. Brace yourself. Watch this space. New blockbuster reporting from the atlantic magazine and the real reason why President Trump canceled a trip to a cemetery for Fallen Soldiers in 2018. Plus new overnight, the suspect accused of shooting a man in portland was himself shot and killed as Law Enforcement moved in to arrest him last night. Well have the latest. And joe biden visits kenosha. He called for an end to stimsic racism while also condemning looting and violence