Transcripts For MSNBCW The Rachel Maddow Show 20190626

Up being of crucial importance when it comes to picking the next president of the United States. Florida, of course, a state won twice by barack obama and then narrowly won by donald trump in 2016. But florida and south florida in particular and miami in particular particular are home to a massively diverse field of voters, and that is also, i think, a key part of the calculation here. Miami, of course, has a large africanamerican population. Africanamerican voters have long been basically the key that unlocks general election possibilities for democratic contenders in general elections. But miami is also a majority latino city. 70 of the population in miami is hispanic. And that Spanish Speaking and latino population in miami is itself really diverse. And so the Democratic Party choosing to site their first debate for the 2020 campaign here in miami, its basically a de facto challenge to all these candidates to make sure they are competing for all different kinds of latino votes. And to prioritize that at the start of the democratic primary and at the start of their campaigns. And so that is why i think the coincidence of this first debate here in miami and the latest news of this administrations attitude toward and treatment of latino immigrants and their families, and particularly little kids, i think that is part of why this is a particularly potent mix right now because the Democratic Candidates competing for the opportunity to run against trump to try to end his administration, they would be criticizing him for what he has done to immigrants anyway. But to have that happening in the light of these latest revelations, that criticism, that competition for what the country should be like should it continue as it is under trump or should it continue under different leadership who would handle this matter specifically quite differently, i mean, that resonates across the country right now with an electorate that is getting increasingly stunned by what they are learning about the Trump Administrations behavior in the news this week. And specifically now today. As weve been reporting here on the show, over the last few days weve gotten these just absolutely horrifying accounts from u. S. Border patrol stations near the Mexican Border about two things. The way that kids coming over the border are still being separated from their parents and their adult family members, even though the Trump Administration claims they ended the policy of separating families a year ago. That is still happening. They are still taking little kids systematically away from their parents at the border. So thats one. Also, we are learning about the conditions in which those kids are being held by the Trump Administration after they are forcibly separated from their families. The gutwrenching descriptions we have of conditions at some Border Patrol facilities have been coming in in the most part from lawyers who are able to access these facilities because they are monitoring compliance with government rules about how kids are supposed to be treated in Border Patrol custody. These lawyers have done these monitoring trips for years. As a rule, they do not talk to the press about their visits. Theyre used in ongoing litigation and legal matters. But despite the fact that a lot of these lawyers have been doing this for years, if not decades, these experienced lawyers who have kind of seen it all, this past week they have been so shocked and so disgusted by what they found that they decided that they needed for the first time to go public and to sound the alarm to let the country know what they were seeing. One of these lawyers told the associated press, in my 22 years of doing visits with children in detention, i have never heard of this level of inhumanity. As we reported last night, the most recent egregious reports have come from a Border Patrol station in clint, texas. Where the lawyers who visited reported kids as young as infants sleeping on concrete floors, not being allowed to bathe or brush their teeth, not having access to soap or toothbrushes or diapers. Older kids being made to take care of the toddlers and babies on their own. Kids being fed terrible food and the same food day after day after day. Kids getting sick. Kids coping on their own with spreading lice infestations. The lawyers found that facility in clint by chance. It was not even supposed to be housing children but they heard a rumor that kids were being detained there. One lawyer said that one of the kids detained there told her that hundreds more kids had been there but he didnt know where they had gone, so the lawyers decided to look around. They drove around the facility until they found out back a brand new windowless warehouse that hadnt been there before. Its recently erected. They were later told that, in fact, a couple hundred more kids were being held in that windowless steel warehouse. And these descriptions of these conditions have shocked and horrified the country for the last several days. Along with the dawning revelation that these kids do not need to be there at all. Officials at the border seem to be making no effort to release children to caregivers. Many have parents in the United States. Rather, theyre holding them for weeks in overcrowded cells at the border. Incommunicado from their desperate loved ones. A second grader we interviewed entered the room silently but burst into tears when we asked who she traveled with to the u. S. My aunt, she said, with a keening cry. A bracelet on her wrist had the words u. S. Parent and a phone number written in permanent marker. We called the number on the spot and found out no one had informed her desperate parents of where she was being held. Some of the most emotional moments of our visit came witnessing children speaking for the first time with their parents on on attorneys phone. Lawyers met with 60 kids in the clint Border Patrol who ranged from quote 17 years old to 5 months old. Again, kids taken away from their families, 5 months old. The infants were either children of minor parents who are also detained or they had been separated from adult family members with whom they had crossed the border. The separated children were now alone being cared for by other young detainees. One lawyer telling the new yorker magazine, there were children at this facility who came across with parents and were separated from parents. There were other children at the facility that came across with adult family members. We met almost no children who came across unaccompanied. The United States is taking children away from their family unit and reclassifying them as unaccompanied children but they were not unaccompanied children. And the national uproar over these kids still now being taken away from their families and being held indefinitely in these totally inappropriate appalling conditions, amid that, amid that national uproar, yesterday we found out that nearly 300 kids had been moved out of that one Border Patrol facility in clint, texas. We talked to texas congresswoman Veronica Escobar about that last night. That facility in clint is just outside her district in el paso. She said as of last night she was not sure exactly where those 300 kids had been moved out to, she just knew they had been moved out of the facility in clint. That was how we left it last night. Then today just a remarkable series of events. First, the head of the u. S. Border patrol quits. That facility in clint, texas is a Border Patrol facility, as is the one in mcallen, texas where similar conditions have been described for yet more hundreds of kids. Amid this outcry over what his agency is doing to these kids right now, the head of the Border Patrol quit today, he resigned. He was actually the acting head of the Border Patrol. Hed only been there for a couple of months. Hed never been confirmed in the position. But that is not uncommon thanks to a string of firings and reassignments that kicked off after President Trump told Homeland Security Kirsten Nielsen that she should illegally block all asylum applications to the United States, given all of the resignations and firings and reassignments that have happened since then we are now in a position where every single borderrelated or immigrationrelated agency in the entire u. S. Government has only an acting leader who has not been vetted or confirmed by the senate. But the latest head of the Border Patrol, he quit today after less than two months on the job. Then we got word that the Border Patrol has now decided to move kids back into that facility in clint, texas. I mean, yesterday after all these reports about the horrible conditions and the National Outcry over that, they moved 300 kids out of there. Today they reversed course and said theyre going to move maybe 100 kids back in. Why is that . A Border Patrol official who insisted on remaining anonymous held a call with reporters to confirm this news, to confirm that Border Patrol is in fact moving kids back into this facility that has given rise to these horrifying reports and this National Outrage over the past few days. I can tell you actually how that goes exactly because we got a transcript of the call today. A reporter asks, are you not concerned that youve now moved 100 children back to the very same facility where these allegations have surfaced from . What the reaction would be from the public and congress, who youre asking for money from . Anonymous Border Patrol official, im not concerned because a full investigation will be completed and, frankly, i personally dont believe these allegations. So its not a problem to put kids back in that facility, even though just yesterday we spirited 300 of them out of there. Its not a problem because everything youve heard about whats going on in there is a lie. Im sure those kids are doing just fine. Who cares what anybody says . I dont believe any of it. And now at the end of this astonishing day, now we learn who is likely to be installed to replace the Border Patrol chief who has just quit amid this disaster, and it looks like the leading contender is this guy. Ive been to the detention facilities where ive walked up to these individuals that are socalled minors, 17 or under, and ive looked at them and ive looked at their eyes, tucker, and i said that is a soon to be ms13 gang member. They are renting kids. Theyre paying to rent somebodys kid and then fake themselves as a family. That is the Trump Administrations acting head of i. C. E. , immigration and customs enforcement. That is who reportedly President Trump is going to choose to take over the Border Patrol today. Since the other guy quit in the midst of this national uproar over this humanitarian disaster of what the Trump Administration has been doing to these little kids. And in the midst of that uproar, apparently what the president wants is someone at the top of Border Patrol who will tell him the socalled families hes separating are fake families. Those little kids, theyre just stunt kids. He wants somebody who will go down to those Border Patrol facilities and look those little kids in the eye and see that theyre all actually future gang members. That is who will now be running this show with your tax dollars on behalf of the United States of america. And the president and the Vice President and republican members of congress and the anonymous Border Patrol official who spoke to reporters today, they all say that what Border Patrol really needs is more money, and specifically that democrats, if they really want to help these kids who, by the way, are being treated just fine, well, they need to send more money to the Border Patrol that has been running these facilities this way. And in fact, right now at this hour democrats in the house are actually passing a bill that would send billions of dollars to the border, including to the facilities caring for migrants at the border. But democrats in congress are also being very clear that what is happening at the border right now, whats happening, for example, at that facility in clint, texas is not something thats happening because the Trump Administration doesnt have money to do better. You cannot tell me that the federal government does not have money for toothpaste and soap. This is inflicted on these children as punishment to try to bring democrats to the table to compromise on the border wall. I think that is absolutely important. The other thing that i think is critical is that we need to stop saying that the policy for family separation has ended. It has not. Since when is a grandmother, an aunt or a sibling not considered family . Only at the u. S. Border. You cant tell me that this problem cannot be solved. You remember that President Trump just a few days ago said, well, he was going to cancel education, cancel recreation, cancel the hygiene needs. This was deliberate. How dare you torture children to try to get a compromise out of democrats. And i am sorry, but looking but hearing about children Walking Around in soiled diapers, hearing about children taking care of toddlers, you are talking about straightup child abuse, and i think that this needs to be condemned internationally, frankly. This is the story that has sort of electrified the country a little bit. It has resulted, for example, in americans being moved to bring boxes of diapers and toothbrushes and soap to these facilities. People have literally been showing up in the parking lot and asking for this stuff to be given to the kids who are being held there. One man who grew up in clint, texas and tried to bring supplies to the facility there told the Texas Tribune today, it makes me feel powerless knowing theres children taking care of toddlers and little kids knowing whats happening in your community and that you cant give these kids supplies to clean or clothe themselves. Its heartbreaking. For gods sake, theyre kids, man. Border patrol has been turning all of those donations away and saying that they will not accept them. When reporters asked that i wont give you my name anonymous Border Patrol official who was asked to brief the press about this today, he or she said in response, were not running low on those things those things are available now and they have been continuously. Those items are available now. Weve used our own funding to buy those things. Plenty of soap. Plenty of toothbrushes. Plenty of food. But really, apparently its not about money. I mean, trumps Border Patrol is happy to say, is happy to tell reporters today that they have all the money to buy those basic supplies. Hygiene items, food, clean clothes, all of it. Thats all been taken care of. So then why are these kids allegedly living right now under their care in these horrific conditions with none of those things . The other explanation from the Trump Administration as to why this is happening is that they just dont have the capacity to hold these kids in conditions that are any way more decent. They just have to hold them in conditions like this because theres too many of them and theres no space, theres nowhere to move them to. What has never made sense about that from the very beginning is theres no reason they have to be holding these kids at all, of course. I mean, remember, the lawyers visiting these facilities say plenty of these kids, theyre interviewing these kids, what they find immediately is that these kids have family members in the u. S. Or they cross the border with family members from whom they do not need to be separated, but apparently the Trump Administration has decided they will separate these kids anyway and then they will make little to no effort to contact these kids relatives. I mean, remember the little girl who had been separated from her aunt, was with her aunt. Right . Shes got a permanent marker and a bracelet on her wrist with a u. S. Parents phone number. Right . The lawyers do what you would do in the situation like that as a human. They called the parent who was in fact in the United States. The parent had no idea where that little girl was. Nobody had ever called. It took that happenstance interaction with a lawyer who thought to do that because the Trump Administration is not bothering. They are just taking the kids away from adult family members and then theyll figure it out. Remember the lawyers who say they found almost no kids who had come across the border unaccompanied. These kids are being separated from family members and the Trump Administration keeps saying, you know, we have nothing we can do with these kids. One of the things you could do is call their freaking relatives in the United States because they have freaking relatives in the United States. If these kids were released to their family members in the United States which used to be the policy for how these things were handled, well, then those kids could be released to their u. S. Relatives and the care and housing and feeding of these kids would come at zero cost to the United States. But instead the Trump Administration has decided theyre going to keep these kids instead, and that is what this boils down to. And honestly, thats happening right now in particular because that is what President Trump wants to run for reelection. Its not like this is an accidental policy. Its not like this is an unintended outcome. This is his platform for the reelect. Joining us now is congressman ben ray lujan, democrat of new mexico. Congressman, thanks for being with us. I know its a busy night with lots of votes. Rachel, thanks for having me tonight. Let me ask about a lot has happened just in the past 24 hours a lot has happened with regard to Border Patrol and the Trump Administration and attempts at accountability for the way these kids are being treated on the border. Can you give us any up to date understanding in terms of what congress is trying to do to stop this behavior by the administration or to hold anyone accountable for it . Well, first, rachel, there should be no question that the Trump Administration, as has been reported, appears to be intentionally mistreating these kids, separating them and putting them in the most inhumane conditions. And what congress is doing right now under democratic leadership with Speaker Pelosi at the helm is making sure that were passing an initiative to direct more funding with guardrails so that were able to get food, supplies, sanitary items, blankets, making sure that theres health care provided for these kids and for these families as well and ensuring that theres going to be humane treatment of these children. But make no mistake. I traveled personally with other members of congress to some of these facilities. These kids were in cages, sleeping on floors, foil blankets, overcrowded cells where they were sharing one open latrine, one open toilet. For families making coverings however they could with their bodies shielding so people could at least use the restroom with no dignity. Its an absolute shame. Shame on the Trump Administration for doing this. Weve learned that as the Democratic Candidates are convening in miami, a number of them have been making an issue while theyre taking this trip here, making an issue of the conditions in one facility thats not far from miami. Its in homestead, florida. Beto orourke, jay inslee have gone or are going. Elizabeth warren said tonight that she is going to the homestead migrant detention facility tomorrow ahead of tomorrow nights debate in which she will she told a crowd in miami tonight they should come with her on that trip. Do you think it makes a difference for you to do these congressional visits like the one you just described for these president ial candidates to show up, to bring people with them . I feel like the more this stuff gets exposed, the more dug in the Trump Administration gets on the idea that they actually think this is the way this ought to be done. Rachel, i would say its absolutely imperative that more members of congress visit these facilities. As a matter of fact, the legislation that were voting on in just a few minutes has language that allows members of congress to do spot visits at these facilities without having to be prior approved. Look at just clint, texas. A member of congress tried showing up to that facility where they took 300 kids out and they wouldnt let her in. Then she went back the next day and there were no children. Now were finding out those children are being sent back there. So its absolutely imperative that members of congress continue to show up and thats why we need to pass this language that cannot prevent members of congress from being able to go into those facilities to inspect them themselves. Congressman ben ray lujan, thank you so much for joining us tonight from washington. Much appreciate your time, sir. Thank you. Thanks for having me. As i mentioned and as the congressman mentioned, there are votes happening right now in the house that includes democrats essentially trying to constrain the Trump Administration in terms of the way they are able to treat kids in Border Patrol custody and in other migrant custody. House democrats are going to put those conditions in the funding bill that they are passing tonight. Obviously the Republicancontrolled Senate will not agree, but a fight will then be on as to whether or not the money for those agencies will come with those kinds of strings. Thats part of whats going on in washington tonight. Another thing going on in washington is something that has broken, actually, since we started the show in the past few minutes. It is about Robert Mueller and latebreaking news right now that he is being subpoenaed to testify before congress. This is something that we thought might be coming. We thought it might be coming from before mueller turned in his report. We have thought that that might be where it ended up once we saw his redacted report and the way its been handled by the Justice Department. Once we saw comments from mueller himself about whether or not he intended to speak to congress. We are getting word tonight that mueller is being subpoenaed. We have just arranged for congressman adam schiff, the chairman of the Intelligence Committee, to join us live next to tell us what exactly is happening with that big development. But that story is just breaking and congressman schiff will be here with us when we come back after this break. Stay with us. When crabe stronger. Strong, with new nicorette coated ice mint. Layered with flavor. Its the first and only coated nicotine lozenge. For an amazing taste. That outlasts your craving. New nicorette ice mint. On a scale of one to five . One to five . Its more like five million. Theres everything from happy to extremely happy. Theres also angry. Im really angry clive actually, really angry. Thank you. But what if your business could understand what your customers are feeling. And then do something about it. Turn problems into opportunities. Thanks drone. Customers into fanatics change the whole experience. Alright who wants to go again . I do i do i have a really good feeling about this. But super poligrip gives him a tight seal. Snacking can mean that pieces get stuck under mikes denture. To help block out food particles. So he can enjoy the game. Super poligrip. [ gi ling ] let[ doorbell ]up. [ slap ] your nails xfinity home. Cameras. Xfinity home. Disarm the system. Doors open. Morning. Welcome to the neighborhood. Do you like my work . Secure your home with x1 voice control. And rest easy knowing you have professional monitoring backing you up. Awarded top pick by cnet. Demo at an xfinity store, call or go online today. Xfinity home. Simple. Easy. Awesome. We have some breaking news tonight. Special counsel Robert Mueller has agreed to testify to congress in an open session on wednesday, july 17th. This is big news. Word broke just a few minutes ago in a joint statement from the chairman of the house intelligence and House Judiciary Committees, congressman adam schiff of california and congressman Jerrold Nadler of new york. This is their statement which theyve just released, and ill tell you just been handed to me so i am reading this as you are. Today House Judiciary Committee chairman Jerrold Nadler and house intelligence Committee Chairman adam schiff announced special counsel Robert Mueller has agreed to testify pursuant to a subpoena before the House Judiciary Committee and House Intelligence Committee in open session on wednesday, july 17th. In announcing the testimony, nadler and schiff hereby release this joint statement. Pursuant to subpoenas issued by the judiciary and Intelligence Committees tonight, the special counsel has agreed to testify before both committees in open session on july 17th. Americans have demanded to hear directly from the special counsel so they can understand what he and his team examined, uncovered and determined about russias attack on our democracy, the Trump Campaigns acceptance and use of that help and President Trump and his associates obstruction of the investigation into that attack. We look forward to hearing his testimony, as do all american. Theyve attached a letter to Robert Mueller which accompanies the actual subpoena, which we also have now. The subpoena commands Robert Mueller to appear on july excuse me, july 17th to testify. The letter thats attached to that subpoena says, dear special counsel mueller, attached please find subpoenas from the Judiciary Committee and the Intelligence Committee to compel your testimony on july 17th. Over the course of discussions about your appearance before congress, weve consistently communicated our committees intention to issue these subpoenas if necessary and we now understand it is necessary to do so. I wonder what that means. We further understand that there are certain sensitivities associated with your open testimony. In particular the special counsels Office Referred several criminal investigations to other offices at the Justice Department and certain matters are ongoing. Your office, moreover, admirably limited Public Comment while the special counsels office work was ongoing. Youve also explained you prefer for the special counsels offices written work to speak for itself. Nevertheless, they conclude, the American Public wishes to hear directly from you about your investigation and conclusions. We expect you will join before our committees as scheduled. Joining us now is congressman adam schiff, the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee. Sir, i really appreciate you making time to join us in the wake of this big news. You bet. Good to be with you. So let me ask first about this phrasing and the letter that you have sent tonight to special counsel mueller. We consistently communicated our committees intentions to issue these subpoenas if necessary and we now understand it is necessary to do so. Should we see this as a friendly subpoena that Robert Mueller believed had to be issued before he could accept an invitation to testify . I dont think the special counsels office would characterize it as a friendly subpoena. He did not want to testify. He made that very clear. Nonetheless, they will respect the subpoena. He will appear. Hell be testifying before our committee in open session. Each of our members will have an opportunity to ask questions of the special counsel. And the American People get a chance to hear directly from him and have their questions answered. So i think its a good result. July 17th is the date we expect him to appear. There will be also a closed session in our Committee Following his testimony in which well be able to ask questions of his staff that may not be suitable for open session. So the open session testimony you said will be for both committees. Will the members of the Judiciary Committee and the Intelligence Committee sit concurrently for that testimony or will those be sequential hearings with each committee in turn . Theyll be sequential hearings on the same day. Okay. Followed by private discussions or private testimony in executive session with his staff, but the open portions of the hearing will be back to back in the two committees. The closed session that will happen with your Committee Following those open sessions, you mentioned that will be muellers staff. Will that be mueller as well in addition to his staff and can you tell us who from his staff is expected to testify at that session . His testimony will be purely in open session. So all the questions we have for him, we expect to ask in open session. In terms of which of his staff, i cant go into those particulars at this point, but there are any number of areas that may involve redacted material or may involve a pending case where its appropriate to ask those questions in closed session. But our predominant interest is being able to shed light on this investigation for the American People in open session with bob mueller himself. And thats going to be the predominant focus of our time with his team. You mentioned that muellers office would not see this as a friendly subpoena, that he did not want to testify. Is that also true of his staff and will they be testifying under subpoena or are those appearances voluntary . I dont think either he or his staff are eager to come before the congress. I think they are doing so because theyre going to honor the subpoena that weve issued. In terms of whether there is a separate required subpoena, i cant comment on that in terms of his staff, but you know, clearly this is something i think from his perspective as a prosecutor, hes reluctant to come, as a prosecutor ordinarily would be. But as bob mueller was the first to point out in his report, he did not make a traditional prosecutorial judgment. He referred this matter to congress. We have taken up that referral. And its fully important in our view that we have an opportunity to flesh out what the russians did, how they did it, what the role of the Trump Campaign personnel were, what were the counterintelligence issues, what was the process used to handle the counterintelligence concerns, where are the findings. All of these questions and a great many more the American People should have the opportunity to pose through their representatives to mueller himself. We never felt it was sufficient to rely simply on a written report or a tenminute statement without the ability to follow up with questions. Because we the public have had so little visibility into the way that mueller works and how he and his team have approached their duties, and obviously theres been a lot of controversy over the way they chose to approach their investigation to present their findings, i think its always been a little bit fuzzy for us outside this process to understand why it is that mr. Mueller does not want to testify, why he is resistant to speaking at all, as he put it, beyond the four corners of the report that he and his staff put out in writing. Can you shed any light on that for us and tell us what these negotiations have been like . Ive seen you express dissatisfaction or impatience or frustration that its taken this long to arrange his testimony. Well, you know, i will let the special counsel speak for himself and their office speak for themselves, but i think that what they have represented to us is that they view themselves as prosecutors, and prosecutors dont normally talk outside of the trial or outside of the indictment. But lets face it, this is not a traditional prosecutorial case. And whats more, bill barr has felt more than free as the attorney general to speak well beyond the Mueller Report, and if he is able to speak beyond the four corners of the Mueller Report then so too should bob mueller feel free to do so. So we have never concurred with that judgement, but i think thats where theyre coming from. And yes, it was frustrating that it took so long because it seemed like such an obvious step from my own point of view. If youre going to accept the role of special counsel in one of the most significant investigations in modern history, youre going to have to expect that youre going to be asked to come and testify before congress. So the only surprise to me is that its taken so long, but nonetheless, were grateful we have finally reached a resolution and the American People will have an opportunity to hear directly from the man who led this team for almost two years. Congressman, i know that you have to go vote, and i have to let you go. I want to ask you one question before i let you go. Sure. Im sorry. Cut me off if you need to. Can you let us know in terms of the questioning and the preparation for having Robert Mueller before you, im thinking particularly of that open session, do you expect that all of the questioning will be done by you and your members on the Intelligence Committee or will this be something where professional staff from the committee are involved in the questioning . Weve obviously seen in every big controversial congressional investigation all the way back to watergate some of the most effective questioning is sometimes done not by elected members but by professional staff. Will that be part of the way that you approach this with mueller . You know, were going to sit down as a committee and have this discussion. We have in our discussions with the special counsel arranged it so that well have sufficient time that if we go through the traditional format, every member will be able to ask questions. We may choose to allocate the time among the members differently than that. And its true that when we have interviewed fact witnesses, and we just conducted interviews within the last week with a fact witness, we have often staffled interviews that go on for a period of time where we will ask questions for an hour, then the other side will ask questions for an hour. Well have to determine whether because this is not a fact witness, per se, whether we will use the traditional approach or well use the approach where we concentrate time among fewer members. I think that given the profile of this testimony, its more likely to be member questions than staff, but were going to be convening among ourselves to determine the best method to approach this hearing. Just going to be an incredibly important moment for the country. I dont envy you the job of prepping for it, sir, but i hope youll keep us apprised as we get closer to the date. Thank you for helping us understand tonight. You bet. Congressman adam schiff, chairman of the Intelligence Committee. Really appreciate it, sir. Hes got to leave because hes got to go vote and i think i held him long. Sorry. But hes on his way to make that vote and i hope that he does. But again, this is this is an important step. This is what the American People have been waiting for since the Mueller Report was released to us in the form that we got, which is sort of an explanation of whats in that report, and i think in particular, of why the special counsel and his staff approached the russia investigation the way that they did. It has not been long. Its been since midapril since we got the we got the mostly unredacted version of the Mueller Report released to the public, but again, the breaking news tonight is that between the Judiciary Committee and the Intelligence Committee in the house, they have now subpoenaed Robert Muellers testimony and he has agreed to testify. As congressman schiff just told us, the special counsels office would not look upon this as a friendly subpoena. This is not one of those things where you sometimes hear in these congressional negotiations a witness or an entity thats been called to testify or hand over documents said im super happy to do it, but just for my own, you know, c. Y. A. Purposes or just because of my own professional responsibilities or just so i can explain this to other people for some other way, please give me a subpoena but ill be fine, ill definitely show up. This does not appear to be that type of negotiation. He said this would not be viewed as a friendly subpoena by the special counsels office, but they do expect it to be honored. Now, of course, the white house has blocked lots of fact witnesses, lots of Trump Administration witnesses who play key roles in muellers report from being allowed to testify to congress. Whether or not the white house will try to block mueller from testifying in response to this subpoena remains to be seen, but as of now it appears they do have a date, 9 00 a. M. 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Cancer Treatment Centers of america. Appointments available now. Its been a long time since andrew dusted off his dancing shoes. Luckily denture breath will be the least of his worries. Because he uses polident 4 in 1 cleaning system to kill 99. 99 of odor causing bacteria. Polident. Clean. Fresh. And confident. Breaking news just within the last few minutes. Pursuant to subpoenas issued by the house judiciary and House Permanent Select Committee on intelligence, tonight special counsel robert s. Mueller iii has agreed to testify before both committees on july 17th in open session. We knew this well, for a while we knew this day would come, then we wondered if this day would come. Now at least weve got a schedule for whether or not this day is going to come. Joining us by phone is former u. S. Attorney for the Eastern District of michigan, the great barb mcquade. Thanks for joining us on short notice. Thanks for getting on the phone with us. Thanks, rachel. Wouldnt want to miss this news. To me it feels like big news. Let me ask your top line reaction hearing this for the first time. Oh, yeah. Im not being sarcastic. I think its really big news. I sort of accepted that maybe the committee had moved on, that Robert Mueller gave his statement where he made it clear that he didnt want to speak and that he wouldnt have anything to say beyond whats in his report and that people were going to let that lie, and so i do think its big news that hes going to speak because i think that his testimony will put a spotlight on whats in his report in a way that the mere words has not permeated, you know, the public consciousness. You know, and i want to ask you what you think about what mueller should be asked. Im going to ask you that in just a minute. But to that point about how long it took to get here and how important it is that we got here, striking that the intelligence Committee Chairman adam schiff just told me that we shouldnt understand this as a friendly subpoena to mueller. Make no mistake about it, he did not want to testify. This letter from nadler and schiff makes clear that there were definitely difficult negotiations here. Over the course of discussions about your appearance before congress, weve communicated our intention to issue shes subpoenas if necessary. We now understand its necessary to do so. We further understand there are certain sensitivities associated with your open testimony, in particular several criminal investigations in certain matters that are ongoing. Does it strike you as important that mueller was so resistant to this and that ultimately this subpoena was what it took to compel him to do this rather than him agreeing to it voluntarily . Yeah, you know, i cant really get into his head. Hes obviously an experienced person with testifying on capitol hill, so i dont think he is in any way intimidated by it, but you know, as a prosecutor i sometimes participated in press conferences to announce charges. You sometimes will get questions and theres a lot of challenge in making sure that you are saying only whats in the four corners of the charging document, not disclosing things that are classified or, you know, that relates to ongoing investigations. There is also in this case the additional political football aspect of it all, and i think Robert Mueller is very resistant to being a political pawn, and im sure to some extent he will be made one. So for all of those reasons i can understand his reluctance. When it comes to matters that are ongoing criminal investigations, obviously chairman schiff took pains to point out that there is going to be open session testimony but its going to be followed by testimony in closed session that will involve muellers staff. Even at that closed session where members are used to hearing classified information and all sorts of sensitive stuff, those Justice Department staffers, those special counsels office staffers, even in closed session they wont be able to talk to members of congress about ongoing open criminal matters, will they . I dont think so. Typically not. Some of the things for which the department of justice will typically invoke privilege, you know, ordinarily theyre supposed to disclose and be transparent but there are a few areas of sensitivity. Grand jury material is one and another is ongoing criminal matters. They wouldnt want to say anything that might jeopardize the success of those investigations. All right. Even behind closed doors. Yeah. There is always the chance that someone will disclose something that happened that can harm let me just ask you bluntly. I know youve read the whole Mueller Report, as have i, and weve all been sort of marinating in it since it first came out. What do you think, what springs to your mind immediately in terms of what mueller should be asked in this setting that was mandated by the subpoena and described to us by the chairman . Well, first i would want to know, did you really intend to leave it to attorney general william barr to make a decision when you declined to make a prosecutorial decision . William barr says, well, that leaves it to me and i decide no obstruction. Was that your intention . I would ask that, number one. Number two, i would ask him about you didnt make a decision with regard to obstruction but you treated it very differently from the way you treated conspiracy. With conspiracy you said the evidence does not establish conspiracy. With obstruction you said something very different, you said we do not charge the president but we also do not exonerate him. What do you mean by that . Is that because there was evidence of crime here and you just didnt feel it was fair to say it out loud . And then the last one i would say is with regard to conspiracy, at one point in the report he identifies gaps in the evidence from witnesses who lied, witnesses who gave incomplete information, witnesses who deleted communication and used encrypted apps. What were some of the youre unable to answer for yourself because of that obstructive activity . Id want to know that because that could be avenues for congress to follow up on in its own investigation. Right. Exactly. Because part of what youre going to want to know here is what mueller wasnt able to find if there is an opportunity for anybody else to find it. Barbara mcquade, thanks for joining us. On short notice as we handle this breaking news. I really appreciate it. You bet, rachel. My pleasure. Thanks. Again, the bottom line here is that Robert Mueller has agreed to testify after receiving a subpoena from the House Judiciary Committee and the House Intelligence Committee. That testimony due to start in open session 9 00 a. M. Wednesday, july 17th. That will be a sequential set of testimony in one committee and then the and other then his staff in closed session with the Intel Committee members. Fascinating. Stay with us. More ahead tonight. That outlasts your craving. New nicorette ice mint. Csaid alice. D curiouser, the rabbithole went straight on like a tunnel for some way. Ive seen a cat without a gri, but a grin without a cat. Hey, mercedes, end audio. Change lighting to soft blue. The completely reimagined 2020 gle. With Intelligent Voice control and available third row. Your adventure awaits. Visit your local mercedesbenz dealer for exceptional lease and financing offers. Mercedesbenz. The best or nothing. You know those butterflies arent actually in the room . Hey, that baker ladys on tv again. Shes not a baker. She wears that apron to sell insurance. Nobody knows why. Shes the progressive insurance lady. They cover pets if your owner gets into a car accident. Covers us with what . You got me. [ scoffs ] shes an insurance lady. And i suppose this baker sells insurance, too . Progressive protects your pets like you do. You can see the secret life of pets 2 only in theaters. The secret life of pets 2 but super poligrip gives him a tight seal. Snacking can mean that pieces get stuck under mikes denture. To help block out food particles. So he can enjoy the game. Super poligrip. One of those nights i had a whole other show planned. But these things these things happen. Again, were covering the breaking news tonight that a subpoena actually i believe it may be two subpoenas. Have been sent to robert s. Mueller iii, the special counsel. The reason i think its multiple subpoenas is because of the way that a press release is phrased from Judiciary Committee chairman jerry nadler and intelligence Committee Chairman adam schiff. Their joint statement tonight says pursuant to subpoenas issued by house judiciary and house intelligence, special counsel mueller has agreed to testify before both committees. We have only seen one of the subpoenas before. Weve seen a subpoena in which mueller appears to be mueller is commanded to be and appear before the committee on the judiciary. Now, we know from talking to congressman schiff that muellers agreement is that he will testify at each committee, at judiciary and at intelligence. And interestingly, after open session testimony from mueller himself before the Intelligence Committee, chairman schiff says there will then be a closed session, but as far as i understand what he told me and, again, we just got this information live from here on the air. Im prepared to be wrong if i misunderstood him, but what i believe he explained is that mueller himself will not be the witness, will not be continuing to give testimony once they go into that closeddoor session. Mueller will only speak in the open session. So that closeddoor session will be members of the Intelligence Committee along with members of muellers staff. Now, i pressed schiff to find out whether or not he would give us the names of the specific Staff Members from muellers team who might be participating in that closeddoor session with the Intelligence Committee members. Obviously thats of interest because we dont know, for one, if there have been divisions among muellers team. Also because it would be interesting to know which of those members of his team is going to be in there, in part because weve come to learn a little bit over the weeks and i guess months now about what each of the members of his team focused on, both in terms of the expertise that they brought to the investigation and what they actually worked on in there. What remains i think for the American Public is probably the biggest question about muellers investigation, is what happened to the counterintelligence part of it . We know that the federal bureau of investigation launched an investigation specifically into the counterintelligence implications, the counterintelligence equities at risk from potential improper contact between the president elects campaign, the the president s campaign, his time as president elect and his time in the white house. Obviously thats, you know, thats the big kahuna. Thats the big question at the heart of all of this. Obstruction of justice ends up becoming a very important potentially criminal part of it once the investigation is under way, but what the investigation started as was this base level question of whether or not the president of the United States might be acting on behalf of a foreign power, wittingly or perhaps unwittingly if he was being manipulated by that foreign power, by some sort of contact between him and the russian government that we didnt understand. The resolution of that counterintelligence investigation is never addressed in muellers report. We believe that that that that intelligence investigation was taken over by muellers team. We think. Once he started the special counsels investigation. But there is really you can find hide nor hair of it in his written port. So we know that mueller has said publicly that he will not comment publicly on anything that is outside the bounds of whats in that report. Well, outside the bounds of whats in that report include that central smoking counterintelligence question that gave rise to this entire scandal and the National Concern over it. If other members of his team behind closed doors will be able to speak to those parts of the investigation, even if they werent in the report, thats a matter of significant, i think, Public Interest and a really key part of the question of accountability for this administration and for the investigators who launched that and then publicly announced that thats what they had done. So, again, we are absorbing this information. The testimony is planned for wednesday, july 17th, 9 00 a. M. Two open sessions followed by a close session with muellers staff. Well have more right after this. Stay with us. Filled with soft surfaces that trap odors and release them back into the room. So, try febreze fabric refresher. Febreze finds odors trapped in fabrics and cleans them away as it dries. 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Take the first step. And learn more about dupuytrens. At factsonhand. Com but super poligrip gives him a tight seal. Snacking can mean that pieces get stuck under mikes denture. To help block out food particles. So he can enjoy the game. Super poligrip. When you start with a better thats no way to treat a dog. You can do no wrong. Where did you learn that . The internet. Yeah . Mmm with no artificial preservatives or added nitrates or nitrites, its all for the love of hot dogs. All right. Heres the skinny. Mueller subpoena to testify or no mueller subpoena to testify, over the next two nights, over the next 48 hours, nbc and msnbc and telemundo are going to host the first debate of the 2020 president ial race. It is on. 20 Democratic Candidates will be taking the stage here in miami. As you know, its ten candidates the first night then ten different candidates the second night. The lineup from night to night was chosen randomly. Ten on night one, ten on night two. You need to start watching debate coverage at 7 00 p. M. Eastern at the latest, okay . Our msnbc special coverage starts tomorrow night at 7 00 p. M. Eastern with Brian Williams and nicolle wallace. Hosts of this debate, theyre going to have the kind of access and information and footage that nobody else is going to have, so you need to start with brian and niccole here at 7 00 eastern at the latest. And then at 9 00 sharp, from 9 00 to 10 00 eastern, the candidates will square off in the first hour with lester holt, Savannah Guthrie and jose diazbalart moderating. And then from 10 00 to 11 00, for the second hour of the debate, savannah and jose are going to tag out and chuck todd and i will tag in to moderate the second hour of the debate. Its going to be a very big deal. I am absolutely terrified. You will not want to this it. I will see you there. That does it for us tonight. Now its time for the last word with lawrence odonnell. Good evening, rachel. Sorry, but its funny to see you