Repeated willful selfdealing. The president s foundation will be shut immediately, and its remaining assets will be distributed to charities approved by the office of the new York State Attorney general in conjunction with the state judge. So that was the start of the day for the president. It should be noted that lawsuit continues dissolving the president s foundation and distributing its assets, according to the wishes of a judge in the new york ag. That doesnt end the case against the president s foundation. In that case, remember the president himself and his three eldest children are all named targets of the states lawsuit. This was very bad news for the president and his family today, and that case may yet have consequences in the criminal law for the president and his family. That case has elements that have been referred for potential criminal prosecution to both the fec on the issues of coordinating illegally with the president s campaign and also the irs for alleged criminal tax violations involving the president s foundation. So thats one thing that happened today. We also today got a very Intriguing Development in the mystery case, the mystery case that somehow involves special Counsel Robert Mueller but nobodys been quite sure how it involves him. This is a matter weve talked about a few times on the show. This is a matter that has just been confounding reporters and observers of the special counsels office for weeks now. All of the filings and all of the hearings conducted in relation to this case have been either filed or conducted under seal, which means the public cant attend and cant read this stuff. Now, weve known that this case involved mueller and his team somehow. We knew that the case, or we could surmise that the case involved somebody fighting a subpoena that they had received from the grand jury that mueller and his team work with in washington, d. C. We knew that the one judge on the court that was hearing this matter, the one judge on that court who was appointed by President Trump is the one judge who was recused from that case. The one trump appointee on that court was recused. So that, among other things, led to a lot of speculation that maybe this mystery case was about the president. Maybe the Mystery Party in this case was the president himself resisting a subpoena from mueller and his grand jury. But nope, today we got a ruling from the federal Appeals Court in this mystery case. And honestly, i still dont totally understand what it is, but it does not appear to be about President Trump personally. It appears to be about a company, we dont know what company, its just called the corporation in the ruling. And the corporation appears to be owned by a foreign country, a country that is not identified. Its just called country a. So the bottom line of that ruling is that mueller wins the subpoena to the corporation is not going to be quashed by the court. But why this fight has been conducted in secret, what this fight has been all about involving some foreign corporation, gaa, i dont know. We finally got a ruling in this case, and we still dont really get what that was all about. Were going get some expert help on figure agatha out in just a minute, a little bit later on this hour. But of course the unbelievable turn of events in todays news happened in federal court in washington, d. C. In the courtroom of judge emmet sullivan. And this just did not go as anybody expected it to. So this is the former National Security adviser of the United States appearing in court for sentencing after he plead guilty more than a year ago and entered into a cooperation deal with the special counsels office. This whole thing today, this whole sentencing today was supposed to roll downhill. There wasnt even a difference of opinion between the prosecution and the defense as to what should happen to mike flynn today. Both side said he should get zero jail time. But amazingly, that consensus view of the defense and the prosecution is not what happened today. Again, we will get expert advice on this in just a morning, but this just turned into a train wreck for mike flynn, and more broadly for supporters of the president , particularly conservative media and on capitol hill who had tried to turn elements telephone Mueller Investigation into some sort of indictment of the fbi, into some sort of scandal about the fbi and Law Enforcement. That took a major hit today. I mean, this was this was just a i mean we knew there was a little element of unpredictability here, but this went way, way off the rails, even before we got to the part where everybody in the courtroom kept saying the word treason over and over again. But this is how it started. The judge, good morning. The courtroom clerk, good morning, your honor. The judge, good morning. Your honor, this is criminal case 17232, United States of america versus Michael Flynn. Will all parties please come forward to this lectern and identify yourselves for the record. Mr. Van grack, governor, your honor, Brandon Van Grack on behalf of the United States. With me at counsels tail about table is zainab ahmed and William Mccausland for the fbi. The goug says good morning, counsel. Ms. Aaahmad says good morning. The judge says, all right, good morning. Good morning, counsel. And then the judge says, mr. Flynn, good morning, how are you . And then the defendant, Michael Flynn says, good. The judge, all right. Good morning. This is case in a very unique posture. Judge sullivan says, quote, i read every filing very carefully in this case. There is a great deal of nonpublic information in this case, and ill just leave it at that. If any of my questions require a party to disclose nonpublic information, or if i begin to discuss something nonpublic, dont be shy in telling me. My clerks over the years have learned to do this. And because we just got a transcript, he makes some sort of gesture. If i get off the script or get into areas, i wont be offended. I may not see you. Stand up or Say Something. I dont want to unintentionally Say Something that should not be revealed on the public docket. So this is right at the outset of todays hearing, and this is a really good reminder right at the outset that all of those redactions we have seen in the Court Filings in mike flynns case, all those big black bars, those things are redacted to us the public, but theyre not redacted to the judge. He has seen the nonpublic information. He has seen the unredacted explanation of the kinds of cooperation that flynn has offered to the special counsel, the cases that he has helped with. The judge has also seen the fbis unredacted notes about their interactions with flynn and about him lying to the fbi. And we really do not know as members of the public whats behind those black redacting bars. But who knows . Maybe whats behind those black bars is what contributed to this judge going off like a volcano today about the seriousness and the terribleness of mike flynns behavior. Im going to cut to the chase here, because this is the part you have heard about today, if you have heard about any of this. The judge, speaking to Michael Flynn, the defendant at this point. The judge, quote, im going to be very frank with you. This crime is very serious. It involves false statements to the federal bureau of investigation agents on the premiseses of the white house, in the west wing by a highranking Security Officer with up to that point an unblemished career of service to his country that is a very serious offense. You know, im going to take into consideration the 33 years of service and sacrifice and take into consideration the substantial assistance of several ongoing investigations, but im also going to take into consideration the aggravating circumstances, and the aggravating circumstances are serious. Not only did you lie to the fbi, but you lied to senior officials in the Trump Transition Team and administration. Those lies caused the then Vice President elect, the incoming chief of staff, and the then press secretary to lie to the american people. Moreover, you lied to the fbi about three different topics, and you made those false statements while you were serving as the National Security adviser, the president of the United States most serious security aide. I cannot minimize that. Two months later you again made sfls statements in multiple documents. All along you were an unregistered agent of a foreign country while serving as a National Security adviser to the president of the United States. I mean, arguably, that undermines everything this flag over here stands for. At which point he swivels in his chair and points at the American Flag in the corner of his courtroom. The judge continues, arguably, you sold your country out. The court is going to consider all of that. I cannot assure you that if you proceed today, you will not receive a sentence of incarceration. I cannot make any guarantees, but i am not hiding my disgust, my disdain for this criminal offense. The defendant, Michael Flynn, yes, your honor. The judge, but its your call, mr. Flynn. Im just being upfront with you, as i would with anyone else, and everyone who knows me, knows that. If you want to proceed to sentencing today, i can not promise anything other than ill give full consideration to anything you wish to say, if you want to stay anything at all. Do you understand that . The defendant, Michael Flynn, yes, sir. The judge, but if you want some more time and to come back later after its clear that youve done everything you possibly can for the United States of america, im going to grant that request. Now, if you would like to take a recess now and talk to your attorneys, im happy to accommodate you in that regard as well. Would you like to do that . The defendant, Michael Flynn, yes, your honor. So at this that point in the proceedings today, Everybody Knows all bets are off. Heading into todays sentencing, mike flynns defense lawyers and the prosecutors from the special counsels office, they had both argued that flynn should receive zero jail time. But, of course, Everybody Knows that its not a consensus thing. It is ultimately up to the judge. And heres the judge, surprise, in open court, flatout warning flynn, i cannot assure you that if you proceed today, you will not receive a sentence of incarceration. There are six different instances in todays sentencing hearing where the judge says to flynn and his lawyers, are you sure you really want me to sentence you today . Are you sure you dont want to rethink that . On the basis of what ive got in front of me, you want me to sentence you today . Are you sure . Six times. The judge even tells flynn at one point, hey, look, ive set up a private room for you the talk to your lawyers today about whether you really, really truly want me to sentence you today. And flynn and his lawyers, one times, two times, three times, four times, five times say nope, judge, were good. Lets go ahead. Until after the part where the judge says to flynn that hes disgusted with and has disdain for flynns offense, and he tells flynn how he sold out his country. And how he has undermined this flag over here, and he turns and points. And at that point, yeah, flynn decides, okay, actually, sir, i know i said no five times, but im going take you up on that offer to maybe not go ahead with you sentencing me today. So Michael Flynn in the end doesnt get sentenced today. Flynns lawyer finally says, quote, we would like to request a continuance of sentencing, your honor. And so flynns cooperation with the government will continue and his case, the sentencing in his case will be continued for another few months. Hell be back presumably some time in march to go before this judge again and talk it over again, maybe under circumstances that wouldnt make the judge explode in front of an open courtroom about how he feels about mike flynns behavior. Now the legal rationale from the judge today for not sentencing mike flynn today, its a legal rationale basically from the judge in which he persuaded flynn and his lawyers to go along with, that was the idea that maybe there is a little more that flynn could do to help out the prosecution here. Remember, muellers office, the special counsels office recommended no jail time for flynn, not because they didnt say he committed serious offenses. They asserted to the court that in fact mike flynn committed serious crimes, but they said that is outweighed by what a great cooperator he has been, helping them with all these other cases. And the judge today was you know however good hes been as a cooperator, youre going to need to add some more cooperation to that side of the scale to balance out his crimes, because his climbs to my mind are unbelievably bad. So hes definitely shocking mike flynn and his defense lawyers today. He also seems to sort of be shocking the prosecutors. And heres where we got some of the news that was made today, made in open court. So this is the judge asking the prosecutors about whether theyre absolutely sure that there is no more cooperation they might be able to squeeze out of mike flynn. The judge says, now id like to hear from the government first, which means the prosecution. Would you come forward, counsel, to the microphone . The judge says again, im not intentionally trying to intrude on matters that should not be on the public record. So ill respect your resistance to answer a question, all right . But is mr. Flynn still cooperating with and providing assistance to the government . Prosecutor Brandon Van Grack. Your honor, it remains a possibility that general flynn is continuing to cooperate with the government at this time. The judge says all right, its a possibility . Mr. Van grack, yes, your honor. The judge, more often than not the court will wait until this perpetrator has finished. This person has testified in the grand jury or pleas entered. There is nothing else he can do to help us. But in this case there is still a likelihood that he could help, correct . The prosecutor then says, yes, but, quote, the defendant has provided the vast majority of consideration that could be considered. So this is the judge being like tell me hes not at the end of cooperating. Tell me hes got Something Else he can tell you. Hes got Something Else he can give you. Because the cooperation hes given you thus far is what im supposed to balance against what i can see about his bad behavior. If he is not done, you might want to wait to have him sentenced until after hes totally done, because hes going to need every iota of his cooperation to balance out how i view his crimes. At this point, we get some news, because the prosecutors from muellers office, they bring up to the judge unprompted the case that we learned about yesterday, and we had wondered if this was going to come up in flynns sentencing today. This is the case just unsealed yesterday where flynns longtime Business Partner was charged with multiple felonies. This is somebody who was also a trump transition official. He was the vicechairman of flynns intelligence group, and help was charged yesterday with being part of a scheme along with mike flynn, person a in that indictment, hes charged with being part of a scheme to basically operate secretly in this country as paid Foreign Agents of the government of turkey without ever disclosing it. So prosecutors from muellers office bring that up to the judge today as if that should help flynn even more. Look, he helped us get that indictment too. Hes been super helpful. He is a great cooperator. But the judge immediately boomerangs that back at them by saying, basically, yeah, i see how he helped you get that indictment filed, but flynn participated in the crime that is laid out in that indictment too. I mean, the judge says looking at the evidence of what flynn himself did in that alleged crime, you could have charged him for that. You could have locked him up for that too, right . Heres how it goes. Prosecutor Brandon Van Grack, quote, wed like to bring to the court ayes attention that we just had an indictment unsealed charges bijan kian and ekim alptekin. In obtaining that charging document. The judge, all right. Could the defendant have been indicted in that indictment . Could he have been charged in that indictment . Prosecutor, Brandon Van Grack, and, your honor, the answer is yes. The judge says your answer is he could have been charged in that indictment . Mr. Van grack, yes, your honor. They then talk about how many years in prison mike flynn could have received just for that crime if he had been charged and convicted in that case that was unsealed yesterday in virginia. The judge concludes that discussion by saying, quote, the exposure for flynn would have been grave then. Exposure to mr. Flynn would have been significant had he been indicted, meaning he could have potentially received many years in prison. Mr. Van grack, the prosecutor, says yes, your honor. So that is a remarkable moment. Thats the prosecutors trying to help flynn out here. Theyre prosecuting flynn, but theyre trying to help him out. Theyre telling the judge, hey, he helped us out in this other case. A and the judge in response makes the prosecutors spell out how guilty flynn might have been in that felony criminal case too. So things are not going well for Michael Flynn here. You should also know that the effort by flynn and his lawyers over recent days to argue heading into todays sentencing that flynn was kind of the victim here, that he didnt really mean to lie to the fbi. The fbi somehow tricked him or unfairly boxed him in to lying inadvertently, they tried that a little bit in the document that they submitted to the judge about flynns sentencing in advance of todays hearing. That argument really did not go well today. And thats important even beyond just the fate of mike flynn, because this has become a real cause celebre, particularly in conservative media. It was even trumpeted today from the white house by white house spokeswoman Sarah Sanders who repeated those claims, essentially, about flynn in her words being ambushed by the fbi, as if flynn didnt really lie, or if he did, it wasnt his fault. It should be noted the judge in flynns case just destroyed that argument today. He forced flynn and flynns lawyers to disavow any claim to that argument and ultimately flynns lawyer even apologized to the judge for raising it at all. The judge, quote, do you believe the fbi had a legal obligation to warn mr. Flynn that lying to the fbi was a federal crime . Mr. Kellner, the defense lawyer, no, your honor. Was it your contention that mr. Flynn was entrapped by the fbi . Kellner, the defense lawyer, no, your honor. Do you believe his rights were violated by the fact he didnt have a lawyer present for the interview . No, your honor. Do you believe his rights were violated by the fact he may have been dissuaded by not having a lawyer present for the interview . No, your honor. The statement sentencing says that revelations of certain fbi officials involved in the interview were themselves being interviewed for misconduct. It your contention that any misconduct by any member of the fbi raises any degree of doubt that mr. Flynn intentionally lied to the fbi . Kelner, the defense tern, no, your honor. The references that i mention that appear in your sentencing memorandum raise some concerns on the part of the court. And my question is how is raising those contentions about the circumstances under which mr. Flynn lied consistent with his acceptance of responsibility . Later on in the proceedings, this is where flynns lawyer essentially decide to take responsibility for that himself and basically apologize to the court for having raised it. The judge says, quote, let excuse me. The defense lawyer says the judge, let me make very clear, your honor, that the decisions how to frame general flynns sentencing memorandum made by counsel, made by me, made by mr. Anthony, the other defense counsel, those decisions are entirely ours and really should not and do not diminish in any way general flynns acceptance of responsibility in this case. And the judge then sort of interrupts and says the point is well taken, but you understand why i had to make the inquiry . The defense Attorney Says i do. The judge, because im thinking this sounds like a backpedaling on the acceptance of responsibility. So that did not work. Mike flynn and his attorneys today disavow and essentially apologize, for ever suggesting to the judge that flynn wasnt really guilty, that the fbi was somehow the real culprit here. I mean, that alone cancels like half the shows on fox news tonight. All right. What are you going to talk about . But theres also the part where everybody starts talking about mike flynn and treason, and they cant stop saying the word treason over and over again. Thats next, and theres actually some news there that may not make the judge very happy in this case. Stay with us. dad got it . boy got it. dad its slippery. boy nooooooo. grandma nooooooo. dad nooooooo. dog yessssss. vo quick, the quicker picker upper bounty picks up messes quicker and is two times more absorbent than the leading ordinary brand. boy hey look, i got it. Bounty, the quicker picker upper. A peaceful night sleep without only imagine. Frequent heartburn waking him up. Now that dream is a reality. Nexium 24hr stops acid before it starts for allday, allnight protection. Can you imagine 24 hours without heartburn . The scenery never changes. Thats why this is the view for every other fullsize pickup. And this year, its deja vu all over again. cuz only the ford f150 gives you bestinclass torque, bestinclass payload. And you got it, baby. Bestinclass towing. This is the big dog this is the ford f150. It doesnt just raise the bar, pal. It is the bar. And now, you can get a ford f150 with zero percent financing for 72 months. Only at your ford dealer. Financing for 72 months. This is moving day with the best inhome wifi experience and millions of wifi hotspots to help you stay connected. And this is moving day with Reliable Service appointments in a twohour window so youre up and running in no time. Show me decorating shows. This is staying connected with xfinity to make moving. Simple. Easy. Awesome. Stay connected while you move with the best wifi experience and twohour appointment windows. Click, call or visit a store today. Heres the part about treason in todays aborted sentencing hearing for trump National Security adviser mike flynn. So this all happens right after the judge has just ripped a hole in mike flynn and said out loud in open court that arguably, mike flynn, you sold out your country. You betrayed the flag that he turned and pointed to in the courtroom. So the judge has just done that. Flynn has just sat down, and then the judge directs questions starts directing questions to muellers prosecutors, and they are questions that appear to shock even the prosecutors. The judge says, quote, counsel, these are questions answers to which the court is going to consider in attempting to determine an appropriate sentence. The conversation with the Russian Ambassador in december, is that a violation of law . Prosecutor Brandon Van Grack, your honor. The judge, i hate to be so blunt. Ocould he have been charged with a criminal offense . Van grack, the facts could potentially support a violation of the logan act, which i think is perhaps what the court is referring to. The judge, is that the act that no one has ever been prosecuted under . Mr. Van grack, thats right. Which is why i want to be clear in terms of the governments consideration of potential charges against general flynn. That is not one of the charges the government was considering. Again, the logan act is about private citizens conducting Foreign Policy negotiations that undermine the sitting government of the United States. Heres prosecutors saying they were not considering those kinds of charges against flynn. The judge says, okay, fair enough. Good. Thats the answer i wanted. Then the judge continues. Were there other charges that could have been brought against mr. Flynn, other than fara violations or false statements . Im not minimizing either one of those. Van grack says the governments statement of offense represents a representation of the unlawful activity that the government believes the defendant committed in terms of beyond a reasonable doubt. The judge, all right. I really dont know the answer to this question, he says. But given the fact that the then president of the United States imposed sanctions against russia for interfering with federal elections in this country, is there an opinion about the conduct of the defendant in the following days that rises to the level of treasonous activity on his part . Van grack, the prosecutor says, the government did not consider i shouldnt say i shouldnt say did not consider, but in terms of the evidence that the government had at the time, that was not something we were considering in terms of charging the defendant. The judge says all right, hypothetically, could he have been charged with treason . Van grack, the prosecutor, your honor, i want to be careful what i represent. The judge, sure. Van grack, and not having that information in front of me and because its such a serious question, i am hesitant to answer it. Gulp. Now after a recess a few minutes later, the judge came back from the recess and cautioned everyone that when he asked that question, could he be charged with treason, each though he said that in court, he came back and cautioned everybody in the courtroom that he wasnt suggesting that there should be Treason Charges against mike flynn. He was just wondering about the possibility of that. The judge after the recess, quote, i wasnt suggesting hes committed treason. I wasnt suggesting he committed violations. I was just curious as to whether or not he could have been charged, and i gave a few examples. And, you know, there are a lot of conspiracy theorist out there. Im not taking the elements of any of the uncharged offenses into consideration at the time of sentencing. I was just trying to determine the benefit of and the generosity of the government in bestowing a benefit on mr. Flynn. That was the reason why. Prosecutor van grack, yes, your honor. The judge, and i said early on, dont read too much into the questions i ask, but im not suggesting he committed treason. I just asked a legitimate question. Van grack, the prosecutor, yes, northern. And that affords us an opportunity to clarify something on our end, which is with respect to treason, i said i wanted to make sure i had the statute in front of me. The government has no reason to believe that the defendant committed treason. Which means today was the day in u. S. History when the prosecutors had to go and check the statute in writing at the judges suggestion so they could return to court and aver that no, theyre not planning on charging the president s first National Security adviser with treason, but thank you, your honor, for the suggestion. And you know what . Its actually pretty good to have looked it up. Now there is one other thing that the judge walked back after that same recess today. You will recall that as flynn stood before the judge today, the judge made some pretty indelible, unforgettable statements about flynn. Telling him not only did you lie to the fbi, but you lied to senior officials. You lied to the fbi about three different topics. You made those false statements while you were serving as the National Security adviser, the president of the United Statess senior most National Security aide. Two months later, again, you made false statements in multiple documents filed pursuant to the foreign registration act. So the judge says the judge thunders in the courtroom, so, all along, you were an unregistered agent of a foreign country while serving as the National Security adviser to the president of the United States. The judge continues, i mean, arguably, that undermines everything this flag over here stands for, and he points at the flag. Arguably, the judge says, you sold your country out. I am not hiding my disgust, my disdain for this criminal offense. So the judge says that before the recess. Obviously, a very dramatic moment. After the recess, the judge walked back something specific about the timing relative to that claim he is making about mike flynn. This is what the judge says, quote, this is directed to either Government Counsel or defense counsel. I made a statement about mr. Flynn acting as a Foreign Agent while serving in the white house. I may have misspoken. Does that need to be corrected . Mr. Van grack, the prosecutor, yes, your honor, that would be correct, which is that the conduct ended i believe in midnovember 2016. The judge, all right. Thats what i thought. And i felt terrible about that. I just want the record clear on that. You agree with that, counsel . Mr. Kelner for the defense, yes, your honor. So the judge feels terrible, he says about saying that mike flynn was an unregistered agent of a foreign power while he was serving as National Security adviser in the white house. He confers with prosecutors to say i was mistaken on that, right . Prosecutors, yeah, his work as unregistered Foreign Agent actually ended before trump was sworn in. It ended in the transition in midnovember 2016 after the election. So the implication of that assertion from the prosecutor and the judges apology here is that mike flynn didnt ever secretly work on behalf of a Foreign Government once he was in the white house officially and sworn in as National Security adviser. As a matter of fact, the judge might not have needed to issue that apology. And thats next. This holiday season, families near you need your help. Visit redcross. Org now to donate. Not to the finish. T. But to the beginning. A fight that can only be won, if we stand together for one cause. Him. Expert care for every new beginning. Today in court in d. C. , when the judge was just thundering at trump National Security adviser mike flynn about the gravity of his crimes, the judge said, so all along you were an unregistered agent of a foreign country while servinging as National Security adviser to president of the United States. He said that and then the judge took it back, and the prosecutor from Robert Muellers office supported the judge in taking it back, saying in court today that mike flynn in fact didnt keep working as a secret Foreign Agent of turkey after the inauguration when he was sworn in as National Security adviser. Prosecutors said in court today that flynn stopped doing that work right after the election in midnovember 2016. And that is in fact when flynn filed paperwork with the government saying that his contract with turkey ended. But you know what . Its possible that the judge was right the first time before he walked that back, at least if some nbc news reporting on this subject is accurate. In november 2017, nbc news reported on something that happened in the Trump Administration while flynn was still National Security adviser before he was forced out, before he retroactively registered for having been a paid agent of that Foreign Government. And in terms of their reporting, we know that what flynn had been paid to do secretly for the government of turkey was try to get this guy gulen, who the turkish government wanted extradited back to their country, the turkish government was paying to get the u. S. Government to extradite him. And thats what flynn was working on when he was a paid agent of turkey. Well, according to nbcs reporting from november 2017, quote, former senior Law Enforcement official said that in the weeks after trumps inauguration, the fbi was in fact asked to conduct a new review of turkeys request to extradite gulen. The fbi pushed back on the request because they provided no new information. Its unclear whether the request to investigate gulen came from mike flynn or typical channels at the state department. So just think about that for a second. In court today, the judge apologized for suggesting that mike flynn might still have been acting as a paid agent of turkey while he was serving as National Security adviser. What he was paid to do was to get the u. S. To extradite this guy gulen back to turkey. And in fact, while flynn was still serving as National Security adviser, somebody in the Trump Administration asked the Justice Department to please look into doing that, leeson look into extraditing that guy. And so i dont know if the judge needed to apologize today, but bottom line in february 2017, before mike flynn was fired, somebody in the Trump Administration tried to deliver on what mike flynn had secretly been paid to deliver as an agent of the turkish government. Joining us now is one of the reporters who first uncovered that, who has been chasing that ever since. Julia ainsley, nbc National Reporter and justice reporter back with us tonight. Julia, thank you. Thank you. Let me just ask if the way i summed that up comports with your understanding of both the flynn case now and your earlier reporting. Yeah, thats right. Lets start with a caveat here. It is possible this didnt come from the white house. As we pointed out, it could have come through the state department. It eventually has to get to the doj. Theyre the ones who have to handle this. It also is pretty typical at the beginning of a new administration that they may ask to reexamine that. But then what i do want to point out is when we talk to former Obama Administration officials, they say they had in meetings with erdogan himself who would come to the white house and make the case that ghoulen needed to be extradited. This is something that erdogan saw as such a priority because he sees gulen as his political foe, and he blames him for that coup in july of 2016, that he didnt do this through diplomats. He did this at the highest levels. It would be kind of hard to believe that in the next administration he wouldnt seek that same top level conversation. But then again, we dont know for sure whether or not that happened at the white house. But if it did, of course that is problematic. Another thing i want to point out, apart from what Michael Flynn eventually disclosed on his fara reports. That took a little while. The reports werent completely accurate in the beginning as the judge pointed outed too, he still had meetings that didnt have to do wiz his group. He had two meeting in new york, one in september of 2016, and one in december of 2016. That would be during the transition, and my colleague carol lee and i have reported on that as well, where turkey continued to press for gulen to be leaving the United States at any cost. They even suggested a kidnapping. Now, its not clear how much Michael Flynn agreed to this, but i do think that these are worthwhile inquiries. I mean, thats why ive been inquiring about it for such a long time. Why did this request come up . And yes, there was pushback. People in the fbi said look, turkey sent over boxes and boxes of these materials under the Obama Administration. We went through everything, and we didnt find anything new. And without new material, were not going to have a different conclusion. We already reached that conclusion. And with this new request that came at the beginning of the Trump Administration, they werent providing new information. So the result was going to be the same. So and to be clear, when the prosecutor today asserted in court that his work, flynns work for turkey ended in midnovember, that does match what flynn filed in terms of saying that his contract ended as this contract for which he was previously foreign unregistered agent. It ended in midnovember. But as you point out, after he was paid hundreds of thousands of dollars by the government of turkey and passed when he said that contract was over, we at least know during the transition in middecember, he was still taking meetings with turkey, talking about trying to deliver to them the thing that they had been paying him to deliver, including as you mentioned, the possibility that they might actually kidnap this guy in order to get it done. Yeah. Thats when things get so squishy during a transition, particularly in this administration when there are so many people who had business ties to governor governments and Foreign Countries before they came in. So when do you delineate between your business and you did before you became part this administration and your work trying to fuel u. S. Foreign policy and get a feeling of who your partners will be on a world stage before you come into your position at the white house. Jared kushner has had some of these same questions raised about his meetings. Michael flynn could have been and he did as it shows in those 302s that we saw yesterday, the interviews with the fbi agents, he did reach out to multiple foreign officials. It just seems that his contacts with russia and with turkey were a little cozier than they were with almost anyone else. And you point out that money. You disclose he was paid 600,000. But as we reported, i think he was offered millions. We reported he was offered millions if he was able to actually come through on this kidnapping thing. Now again, not clear that he agreed to that or what really happened there, but these were all propositions. So whether or not the judge just got the date wrong could be, or it could be that he knows more and thinks that he continued to be influenced while he was in the white house. And he made that case today. Yeah. And once youve taken hundreds of thousands of dollars secretly from a Foreign Government, it does tend to cast a pall over your subsequent interactions pursuing that countrys aims. Julia ainsley, reporter for nshz news. Thank you so much for being with us. Thanks, rachel. Much more to cover. Stay with us. What happened to you . I got beat up because i was different. You cant keep on running away from your problems. So, i created a world where i can heal. Welcome to marwen. The only way youre going to get better, is if you face those jerks who beat you up. Im not really sure how to do this. We got your back. We always have your back. I have my art and i have my friends. I have hope and thats something they cant take away from me. Hell yeah. Discover card. I justis this for real . 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Yeah pirate girl ahoy excited squeal, giggling panting gotcha man ah girl nooooooooooooo man nooooo girl nooooo. vo quick, the quicker picker upper bounty picks up messes quicker, and is two times more absorbent than the leading ordinary brand. man and pirate girl ahoy laughing vo bounty, the quicker picker upper. Joining us now is chuck rosenburg. He is a former attorney in the district of virginia, a former senior Justice Department official. Chuck, thank you so much for coming in to talk with us. My pleasure, rachel. I obviously like everybody else watching this case were struck by the drama in the courtroom today with what he we thought might have been a sleepy affair. Prosecutors and defense lawyers heading into today were both essentially asking for no jail time for mike flynn. It didnt go it didnt roll smoothly downhill at all, and it veered off in a very unexpected direction. Just top line, what did you think about the way this went today and the judges remarks . I thought the judges remarks were intemperate. In my experience, the best judges, like the best umpires in baseball fade into the background. They make calls, they get most right. They get a few wrong, but you dont really see them playing the game. And thats what i thought judge sullivan did today. He brought up some things that i thought were simply intemperate. It sounded more like he wanted to be a prosecutor than a judge, questioning the charging strategy, holding the prosecutors to account for why he was getting the deal he got, whether cooperation was finished, whether he should have been charged with treason or a league again act violation. Look, the judge is the boss. Any judge in his or her courtroom is the boss, and they get to decide what the sentence was, but i thought some of the remarks were intemperate. And in terms of them being intemperate, that goes to his being a judge and tone and judicial context. But are you suggesting the judge betrayed an improper bias that s that might actually prejudice the question whether he should be the judge in this case . I think he gave the defense an argument. Im not sure theyre going to take him up on it, but he gave them an argument that he shouldnt be the sentencing judge. Thats a risky strategy. They would have to ask if he be recused. If he said no, they couldnt change it, theyre really stuck, arent they . I think whats going to happen Going Forward is the prosecutors will put together a more foal some, more compelling case for general flynns cooperation, im guessing. Theyll file that at some point so the judge will have more of a road map. In terms of the way this was resolved today, obviously we saw the judge quite sharply, essentially rebuke the defense for having and rebuked flynn for having suggested that his lies to the fbi were somehow the product of entrapment or he was ambushed or boxed in. But we also saw the judge propose a resolution to this matter effectively, in which flynn has to go back and offer more in terms of cooperation in order to balance the scales more in his own favor before hes sentenced. What did you make of those . I thought the judge was actually right to rebuke defense counsel for positing, all right, that flynn was entrapped, that flynn was set up, that flynn didnt know what he was doing. That struck me as a defense argument as a bridge too far, rachel. That said, the government decided that general flynns cooperation was finished. They were the ones who met with him 19 times. They were comfortable making that substantial assistance downward departure motion. When mr. Van grek was asked, is there anything more you can do . The answer was, well, yeah, you know, sort of, well try, well see what we can do. But the real answer, if youre reading between the lines, was, no, were ready to go to sentencing. We have what we need, your honor. So, look, if im going to criticize the judge for being intemperate, i want to praise the judge for calling out what i thought were some defense misrepresentations about the nature of that interview. That was deeply unfortunate, and i think fuelled a fire in certain quarters of the political debate that were way off the mark. And i think that cant have been unintentional. Obviously youre going to know how thats going to resonate with the president and broadly with the white house, white house spokesperson saying today from the podium that flynn was ambushed by the fbi, and thats, of course, become a real rallying cry in conservative media. Seeing them deflate today upon flynn saying, i did lie to the fbi and i knew what i was doing is remarkable. The thing you pointed out is general flynn is saddled with that. Even if it was his lawyers idea, even if he didnt understand the context of what they were doing, he is saddled with that. He has to live that down at his actual sentencing. He has to do something. Maybe with the help of the government, to show that his cooperation was folsom and his responsibility was complete. Chuck rosenberg, former u. S. Attorney in the Eastern District of virginia, former senior fbi and Justice Department official. Thank you for helping us understand this today. What eye dramatic day which always makes me want to have your incredibly sober take on it. Youre very kind. Thank you, rachel. Well be right back. Stay with us. I cant tell you who i am or what i witnessed, but i can tell you Liberty Mutual customized my Car Insurance so i only pay for what i need. Oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. [narrator] meet sharks newest robot vacuum. It powerfully cleans from floors to carpets, even pet hair, with ease, and now for cleaning surfaces above the floor, it comes with a built in shark handheld. One dock, two sharks. The shark ion robot cleaning system. Kayla our dad was in the hospital. Josh because of smoking. But we still had to have a cigarette. Had to. Kayla do you know how hard it is to smoke in a hospital . By the time we could, we were like. What are we doing . Kayla it was time for nicodermcq. The nicodermcq patch with unique extended release Technology Helps prevent your urge to smoke all day. And doubles your chances of quitting. Nicodermcq. You know why, we know how. I lied. I pulled a fast one. I just said good night to chuck rosenberg, but as you were getting up, i didnt ask you about the last thing i needed to ask you about. We have been watching this mystery case in the Appeals Court in d. C. That we knew related to the Mueller Investigation, but we didnt know what it was about. We surmised it might be somebody resisting a subpoena from the grand jury thats working with mueller. Today we got a ruling in that case. It does seem still like sort of like a mystery. What do you make of this ruling . We know what its not, right. We had seth cururmised it could executive privilege questions, subpoena of an individual in the trump white house. It seems to be more mundane. Seems to be a subpoena, maybe to a bank or some stateowned entity some sort of corporation thats owned by country a. Thats right. But because its a grand jury matter, it still remains under seal. The court told us about as much as it could. Interestingly, rachel, they told us in their short opinion that theres more to come from the court. They are going to tell us more in a subsequent opinion. But they do seem to be sort of giving deference to rushing this case as fast as they can. Which is good. Its good for prosecutors. It lets them move on to the next phase of their investigation. Thank you, chuck. Appreciate t. I can really go now . Well, i dont know. See if hes here when we come back. Thanks for being with us for the show tonight. We will see you again tomorrow. Now its time for the last word with lawrence odonnell. Good evening, lawrence. Good evening, rachel. You know whats supposed to be the simplest day of your life in the courtroom, if if in america you are a criminal defendant who is pleading guilty and the prosecution is asking for no jail time . That day is supposed to be today. That was supposed to be today for Michael Flynn, and, wow. Yeah. Did that get out of control fast. This was like the degree of difficult this is like in ice skating, theres stuff thats hard. Whatever the degree of difficulty