Meeting. That trumps own son took it explicitly being promised damaging information on clinton and then the times gave the actual information. The meeting, if it is what you say, i love it. If you did that, you might need a wider defense than denial. In october came the multiple denials. October 30, the Special Counsel announcing the indictments against Paul Manafort who goes on trial tomorrow, plus his deputy, Campaign Manager rick gates. Mueller also announced guilty pleas of George Papadopoulos who admitted contacts with who . Russian nationals. Who he thought were tied to the russian government. Who offered him what . Yes. Information about the possible release of Hillary Clintons emails. So following those indictments we then saw allies of the president including now and this is key, the president s own lawyers, picking up the argument like Go Pro Camera, collusion is
it went away for a few months. The president was focusing on just the straight up no collusion point. You see it in all the tweets. Now it is roaring back because of the thursday Night Bombshell that the president s own former lawyer and fixer cohen is claiming despite all the denials, the president did know about the russia Trump Tower Meeting in advance. When that report drop, you know what happens next, they picked it up and whipped it around and began running with it again. Its hard to see the point of all of this hysteria. What would the crime be . It is not illegal to talk to foreigners. Nobody is claiming that any information changed hands. Even if did it, so what . I dont think it is bad if campaigns are turning to foreign governments for dirt. Its not collusion. It is not something thats impeachable. Is that just history . Odd timing . Did mueller just indict and now getting ready to wrap things up . To be fair, we dont know. We havent said. What were seeing amidst this collusion is not a Crime Hysteria is the people closest to this, people like Rudolph Giuliani and the president himself, theyre not acting like mueller is wrapping this up. Theyre acting like something is about to get much hotter and like it is somehow for some reason important to them to get at least their supporters, at least some people in this nation tonight to believe that crimes are not crimes. I turn now to a former federal prosecutor, a u. S. Attorney in the Southern District of new york. A fellow at nyu law school. Thanks for being here tonight. Thanks for having me. Collusion is not a word that
figures importantly into the federal statutes. But the reference to a Reference Conspiracy is the type of crime that is in the statutes. Walk us through what to make of this defense. If you were to sit on Television Every Night and every time you talk about this investigation, you would have to say, lets talk about the investigation into a conspiracy to defraud the United States from impeding the proper functions of the government, people would turn the channel off. Collusion is just shorthand for potentially several crimes that are in the federal code. And so this shift in strategy when Rudolph Giuliani unquestionably knows that, means to me there is Something Else up. It is just too simplistic and too incorrect even for someone like Rudolph Giuliani who mass made a number of misleading and incorrect statements over the past couple months, even for him, it is a clear change in strategy. What does it suggest that hes worried about . You mentioned the cohen piece. Follow me here for a second. Giuliani introduced the notion of this preceding meeting to that june 9 meeting. That was not out there before. Today on one of his many interviews, he said that one of the people at that meeting was rick gates. Rick gates is the star cooperating witness in the Paul Manafort trial set to begin tomorrow. And before a trial, the government has to provide every prior statement of any of their witnesses. So now manaforts attorneys have rick gates prior statements, all of his interview with mueller and the team. What sticks out to me is that gates was at that meeting and it would not surprise me, this is pure conjecture and there may be limitations on Whether Manaforts lawyers can disclose
this. But it wouldnt surprise me at all if Rudolph Giuliani learned from manaforts lawyers a little bit about what rick gates is going to say about collusion. And theyre now trying to get out in front of this by not denying there is collusion but by saying it is not a crime. That is a fascinating theory that would explain the chain of potential information. Given what he is charged with, why would the Trump Tower Meeting come up at all . It will likely not come up at the trial. Because of the federal statutes that require the government to disclose all of his prior statements, they can know used on crossexamination to impeach him, manaforts lawyers will have known about it. So dont expect i in the trial thats coming but in potential back channels, giuliani could learn, and he was not able to speak to rick gates. When he says, ive spoken to everybody at those meetings, it is not true that giuliani at least has spoken to rick gates, since gates cooperated. And youre referring to how, Rudy Giuliani said, well, lets talk about a pre meeting which could make them look bad if they were all geared up and prepping for getting bad stuff on clinton and the russians. What is he doing . Covering his tracks. I think he spoke too much. I think he realized this is first time anyone had heard of this pre meeting and everyone is focused on it now. For him to say there was a pre meeting but the president was not there and didnt know about it. Thou dost protest too much. Of course the president didnt pay Vladimir Putin for hacking. Of course he didnt speak to putin on the phone and say can you interfere on my behalf. And there is no fundamental understanding of a conspiracy which does not require direct contact. You can build evidence through all sorts of direct or circumstantial evidence. Right and giuliani knows even accepting a thing of value is illegal. It doesnt require the actual transaction. Thank you for being here tonight. Thank you for having me. We appreciate it. I want to turn to another guest of ours who has been all over this probe from the start. Thank you for being here. Where do you come down on rudy, secret genius or bumbling incompetent spokesperson or bumbling incompetent spokesperson that is hiding a genius . Well, i think it is really, really difficult to be a lawyer for a client who is notoriously
unreliable. It seems like Rudolph Giuliani does not know the facts in any given situation. His own client is not being completely honest with him. Donald trump has changed his story on so many things related to the russian interference and his own role in them that it is really hard even for giuliani to keep up with it. So it seems like hes just making up his own facts as he goes along, as evidenced today when he gave two separate accounts of what actually happened in that meeting on june 9. He claimed there was a pre meeting, meeting on june 7 that rick gates and Jared Kushner and Paul Manafort attended. And then claimed that meeting never happened and he said it was leaked but it hadnt yet been made public. So it is a lot of whip lash and it seems like giuliani is trying to muddy the waters and confuse as much as possible because thats their only strategy at
this point. To make people really, really confused about what actually happens so they can look at the next sheeny thing and move on. And we havent reached his other defense that is remarkable and looks like bad news for people who are not at the highest levels of the white house. I guess we could call at this time vip defense. The back of the club where you have the special vip section. He basically says, and im quoting, when i say no collusion between the Trump Campaign and russia, im only speaking about the top four or five people in the campaign. Which appears to be him narrowing the circle of, he is denying collusion only in the vip section. Not the rest of the club. I dont know what that means. It is really hard to decipher Rudolph Giulianis comments. I think maybe what he is referring to is people like George Papadopoulos who was offered dirt by the russians in the form of thousands of emails
stolen from clintons inbox. It doesnt make much sense. Paul manafort was the Campaign Chairman for roughly four months at the most pivotal moment. He is directly at the center of knees questions of whether or not the Campaign Colluded with moscow. He was the highest Ranking Member of that campaign with the closest ties to russia. And it is important to remember that he was heavily in debt by the time he came on as chairman and he decided to do the campaign for free. He offered campaign access to a russian old garg in exchange for debt relief. These are all things that wont be addressed in the upcoming trial due to begin tomorrow with Jury Selection because it will focus mostly on his tax and bank fraud crimes. There will be a reckoning and will it be in his d. C. Trial which will focus on his efforts as an unregistered foreign agent. It is especially notable in a campaign as thenally staffed as the Trump Campaign. We know that from the requirements and they often bragged about how few people there were. Thank you so much tonight. Thanks. Whether or not the president s attorneys believe collusion is a crime or not, the first real live trial in the Mueller Probe does begin tomorrow. That and much more ahead tonight. . Yeah, wow. This must be for one of our new unlimited wireless plans. It comes with a ton of entertainment options. Great, can you sign for this . Yeah. Hey, uh. Whats in that one . Thats a shark. New and only with at t, you can get unlimited data, 30 channels of live tv, and your choice of things like hbo or pandora premium. More for your thing. Thats our thing. Visit att dot com. Crisp leaves of lettuce. Freshly made dressing. Clean food that looks this good. Delivered to your desk. Now delivering to home or office. Panera. Food as it should be. It is such a good time to dance it is such a good time to [ laughing ] scoobidoo Doobidoo Scoobidoo doobidoo [ Goose Honking ] [ laughing ] a bad day on the road still beats a good one off it. Progressive helps keep you out there. They dont anticipate that a government witness will utter the word russia. Instead the trial is about what prosecutors allege is manaforts lavish lifestyle financed with money that he kept in secret accounts, all while evading taxes. The prosecutions witness list includes the guy who sold him the fancy suits and the mercedes dealer and even the landscaper on his mansion. So on the one hand we are looking at true his, to moment. The president of the United StatesCampaign Chair going on trial for multiple felonies. On the other hand theres a lot of reason to tamp down any expectations that this trial, no matter how important to the rule of law, will ultimately connect in any way to the larger debate around collusion. To help us understand where it fits in and Paul Manafort, we are joined by jeff horwitz. An Associated Press reporter. Thank you for your time. Thanks for having me. You have done a lot of reporting and investigation of what manaforts work meant. The work in ukraine, in russia, the link to this oligarch that weve heard so much about. Because of this trial, because weve learned that it is not explicitly about that, what do you think well be important that we will learn through it . So it may not be as much of what were going to learn here. A lot of it is cut and dry. It is a step and something that Robert Muellers team needs to get done successfully. They are going to be approaching this is not about collusion. This is about a guy who allegedly made 60 million overseas, didnt want to pay taxes but did want to spend it on fancy suits and yankee Season Ticket passes and time in the hamptons. Theres a box in your tax return that says if you have any
overseas bank accounts, youre supposed to disclose them. Manafort didnt click that one. So well see what the Bank Component is. The closer we get to the campaign is the suggestion that manaforts gave a campaign job and potentially some encouragement for a white house or a government job to a banker who was providing allegedly fraudulent loans to him. And that would reveal more than a tax evasion . It would look like an attempt to use the campaign . The question of why this person was so greedy that he didnt want to pay taxes but was so benevolent that he worked for free on this campaign. I think those of us who have written about him for a while know that he was quite a freelancer. He was cutting deals. He viewed himself as an entrepreneur. A big question in terms of overall gist of manafort and his case will be to what degree he
was doing anything, his motives and what he was up to had anything to do with the campaign at all. Weve seen from emails that have been released from his correspondence that they were trying to figure out how to get more money out of oleg. And obviously, Paul Manafort was allegedly interested in trying to use his position to get something out of a bank. The question of whether it has anything to do with it. When you say free lancer, another word that arises is hustler. The question is whether he was hustling in a way that might reflect on management. It would make they will look more like victims handle the coconspirators. Im not sure that it is a question given his history. I think it is cut and dry without a court case. The question is, what was he trying to sell and how does any of this relate to the campaign. Theres no reason it has to. A guy had 60 million Cant Go On Trial In America for hiding 60 million. The 60 million, what will jurors take from this . It is very hard to wrap anyones head around the idea that the most brilliant in the world could be worth that much. It is having seen some of the documents and the financial transcripts, i have a hard time imagining it myself. I would say theyre very good at selling their open services. The money came in weird dribs and drabs and large lump sums. And as i said, the sort of, what work he did to he were it is almost extraneous. In fact it is extraneous to this trial. The important thing was whether or not he disclosed it without letting the government know that he had it. Thats a felony. Do you see anything that could happen that would make him flip . I think the question that youre asking would depend on him having something to flip about. I dont know that i view him as being a loyalist and thats an open question. People cut deal all the time just for leniency. Most people never go to trial. For some reason, he wont do anything. I think when people cut those deals, and those deals are very good when you can get them. Rick gates is presumably taking one against Paul Manafort right now. They cut deals because prosecutors have figured out that they have something they really want. And it is unclear whether the Special Counsels office has a sense of Whether Manafort does have that sort of thing. It does seem like if there is not, if there is some bargaining
to be done, that would be the time to do it. Yeah. As it approaches. Thank you very much. Thank you. Up next, weve seen it happen. A politician takes a stand and then folds. What happens when a politician does that every single time he claims to take a stand . We have a knew word for it. Stay with us. And now is the best time to buy. Man on tablet preparing classic campfire trout. Say what . Trout. Trout. Alright. You dont think i need both . Why does he have that axe . Make summer go right with ford, americas bestselling brand. Now get 0 financing for 72 months plus 1,000 Ford Credit Bonus cash on a great selection of suvs. During the ford summer sales event, get our best offer of the season 0 financing for 72 months plus 1,000 Ford Credit Bonus cash. Its a hightech sleep revolution. The sleep number 360 smart bed intelligently senses your movement and automatically adjusts. So you wake up ready to run the world. The new sleep number 360 smart bed, from 999. Wmust have cost a lot. 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An allstate company. Click or call. Your Digestive System has billions of bacteria but life can throw them off balance. Realign yourself with align probiotic. And try new align gummies with prebiotics and probiotics to help support digestive health. Really important people if theyre in the middle of a big he story, they go on all of them. It is called the Full Ginsburg named after Monica Lewinskys lawyer. Another is the bradley effect. The situation where voters tell pollsters theyll go one way, only because they dont want to admit their real choice and thats named after tom bradley who lost despite the big lead in the polls before hand. Or Supreme Court fans know what it means to get bourqued and every one knows john hancock. Thats what the founding father with the largest signature had and that conveyed his courage at a time when rebellion was punishable by death. Jon stewart once tried to make the term mcconnelling catch on with mcconnell smiling into the camera with a song. That was because the campaign put the video out there attempting to evade a Campaign Finance rule. Lets be fair. It didnt exactly catch on. Neither did fetch and thats why they say stop trying to make fetch happen. Tonight maybe we can make rand pauling happen. It is definitely a political thing for the trump era. A time when many have rolled over or surrendered to trump actions they once claimed to oppose. The leaders on the religious right or paul ryan enrolling his speakership in Something Like a witness protection program. There are other republican whos make more of a show opposing trump. The question is whether thats posturing over actions. So consider how rand paul vowed to oppose mike pompeo for his nomination as secretary of state. Rand paul said he would do whatever it takes to stop it. Forget filibustering. Rand paul voted for him. Thats classic rand paul. Or last summer, rand paul declared himself a no vote repeatedly. He put in it writing with much fanfair. When it came for the final vote, he voted yes. Classic rand pauling. Or take one bill that trump has actually signed. Rand will stand and wave tax cuts, white house fearsest did not. So lets take all of that context together and take it to the bank for rand pauls latest withdrawal of political capital. He has been deliberating over trumps Supreme Court pick. One defection there could stop trump in his tracks and paul said im very undecided. This is not a small deal for me. This is a big deal. Im sure you can feel suspense on this one. What will he do . Will he use this moment to buck the president or hold out to press the issues . You know, ive seen more up predictable episodes of the road runner show. And today, rand paul announced he will vote yes to confirm judge kavanaugh. Now that is a shocker. Beep, beep. So whatever rand paul decides at the end of the show, we actually have a report on the factors that really can impact kavanaughs chance to get on the Supreme Court. 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Maybe not as sharp a corner as the dog with the Go Pro Camera in the yard west did want to play that again since the dog might be something of a catharsis for our weird times. The corner we turned was actually on the calendar. We are inside 100 days until the midterm. So yes, trump gets plenty of attention and scrutiny is a type of attention. The fight for control of the house and the senate seats up this cycle, 35 in total, is
drawing attention for good reason. In fact, we can start with the history as rachel often does. Historically we do know any first term president is vulnerable in their first midterm. The american political system tends to bounce between two parties and it is corrected a little by the other party gaining seats in the next congressional race. That alone may be part of why democrats are up in the generic ballot that asks people to choose between a nameless person from both parties. And pollsters believe bits an 8point margin to take back the house. And holding the lead from 7. 3. That is a rough ballpark. It does not account for this unusual president or the actual democrats running for office who range from some familiar faces in leadership. Some say too familiar, to some other new and young faces in other races. That includes a Record Number of women candidates running. Mostly on the democratic side. Then there are the issues people are running on. The clues from material races, like next weeks special election in ohio features a gop candidate running away from trumps. Tax cuts. And a Democrat Using the issue to happen order health care and the safety net. Heidi is facing a challenge from a conservative cran. Then look at charles koch. He is putting muscle behind her as the democrat thinking senator heitkamp for voting against Banking Regulations they didnt like. And now the group says they wont help the republicans unseat her. If that sounds like another wild turn in the yard, it is something different. Koch saying he is actually speaking out about all this beyond parties. Quote, i dont care what initials are after her name. I would like there to be many more politicians who have the courage to run on a platform like this. For more on exactly what this Conservative Funder is doing, we go to someone who has been covering this latest koch network summit. I am joined by political reporter with nbc news. So nice to have you tonight. Great to see you. When you look at this unusual move, does it reflect heitkamp and certain democrats getting closer to the kochs . Or them taking a step away from the Republican Party . I think it is the latter. Them taking a step away from the trump Republican Party and thats because the kochs, which are libertarian in their back ground, they think that the trump Republican Party is moving away from them. And this i believe is then taking a stand saying, we do not want the Republican Party to move in to this other direction, this direction that doesnt support free trade. Were going to take a stand and if you republicans do not come on board and support the same things the kochs support, absolute free trade, reduced size of government, they oppose corporate welfare, if you dont get behind these things, we wont support you. And they stay Heidi Heitkamps
challenger, a current member of congress who represents north dakota. They say, look, he has not stand his ground on all of these issues. They say on immigration, criminal justice reform, these other issues the kochs also agree on. So this is a warning shot to republicans. Do not travel far off the reservation here. Fairly or not, in large swaths of the democratic party, the koch name has become synonymous with right wing money and politics. Are there really that many Democratic Candidates that even want this association, do you think . Yeah, i think that The Koch Association is not going to be a winning issue for many of these democrats on the campaign trail. Heidi heitkamps campaign, they sent may response after the news
about kevin kramer say. In the statement they sent, it didnt mention this at all. It didnt mention the koch pros. It said Heidi Heitkamp is here and shell fight for north dakota and put them first. So that was an indication that she wont tout the nomination by the kochs. She will say, i wont do what the kochs say, doyle what you the voters say. What is her position in a trump state . She is doing pretty well. I think some of the things the koch network, they like about her, the reason they thanked her, she rolled back some of these dodd frank Banking Regulations. She was a leader on that. She was a cosponsor of the bill. And thats something that shes touted. She said that it supports community bankers. Thats something that got the koches attention and thats what they thanked her for. Donald trump likes Heidi Heitkamp, too. Yes, Vice President pence was out last week in support of kevin kramer but Heidi Heitkamp shows up at the white house in these photo ops with donald trump. But in the state, she is saying im going to support the president when it is appropriate for north dakotans and ill oppose them when it is appropriate. One of the big votes she has coming up is the Supreme Court nominee, kavanaugh. And shes going to get a lot of pressure from the right and probably including the kochs who announced today they will likely run advertisements in her state to pressure her to vote for kavanaugh. The timing could be really, really important for democrats who are trying to maintain their seats in the states that trump won in 2016. And everybody will be tracking where these senators
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telling the judge overseeing that case on Family Separation thats it either reunified or appropriately discharged 1820 of the children that it separated. About four unof those are people in families whose parents were deported basically without the children. Now, the aclu is asking the government to hand over a list of the 400 plus deported parents. The Civil Rights Group wants to see if it could help them. After hearing on friday, the trump gave the administration has to submit a list of the deported parents by wednesday. Before any of that, the judge is expected to rule on whether the Trump Administration has to stop deported the families. The aclu asked the judge to make the government wait seven days before deporting any families because of rumors that mass deportations may be carried out
upon reunification. So there may have been something to those rumors. Theres new testimony now from four fathers who were reunited with their teenage children last wednesday which suggests that ice agents pressure parents to be deported with their children and then separated them when they refused. The fathers telling aclu attorneys, after they were reunited, they were asked to sign a form with options, including the choice to be deported with their children or alone while their children stay in the u. S. To pursue asylum. The fathers say there was nothing like a real choice. Someone checked the box that would send them and their kids back. They were told just sign them. One of the fathers saying when he refused to sign, the ice officers said to him words to the effect of, what do you think you are, a lawyer. The Administration Says there are about 1,000 families with these orders that they could face what many are calling this
false choice that face those four fathers unless, unless the judge orders the government to wait this week before enforcing the deportation orders. And that important ruling on this important issue, its expected any day now. I turn to the Senior Reporter at fox. Com who has been reporting on all of this. It is a real mess. Immigration asylum cases are messy to begin with. This is more complicated by the policy. When you look at whats being called this false choice, walk us through how this works and what victory would look like if the aclu could prevent it. When you mention those 1,000 parents who have already gotten orders of deportation, that means they have run out of options to pursue their own asylum. Their claims have been rejected. They have been denied review. They are on the verge of being deported. Their children, when they were separated from them, that legal case got broken out and children have a better chance of getting asylum. So by choosing to be deported with their child, the parent would be saying, im going to withdraw my childs case, even if he could ultimately stay in the country so we could go back as a family. Maybe the parent of a 16 or 17 year old doesnt want to do that. Then maybe they would be willing to allow their child to stay in the u. S. And pursue an asylum claim. But as this testimony indicates, they may be not being allowed to do that and instead being forced to withdraw the claims of children who might be able to stay ultimately and get legal status. And what do they say to allies of the administration who argue in that case, which is
really a small subset, in that case it would seem the parents are seeking to actually selfbreak up the family. That is something that the aclu, the government and the judge in this case and the separate case over Family Detention have said is a choice the parents should be allowed to make, that it is perfectly acceptable for a parent to say i would rather be deported without my child than force my child to go through this. Its not, you know the judge in this case has been very skeptical that any parent would willingly make that choice. Hes told the government to back in the case of the parents that have officially waived any reunification rights to make sure that choice wasnt coerced. But we have seen over the weekend that sometimes the alternative might be true. And the no one in the government has maintained that the government should be making decisions about what happens to these families after reunification. The question theoretically ought to be who has options within due
process and whether that outcome ultimately ends in their deportation. This is the first indication we have that the government is trying to curtail the process for people who are still going through it. Right. As your reporting reflects, there is an individualized assessment when the system works it is supposed to be provided to individuals because each family and the threats they facebook home in the asylum context will inform what they do on an individualized basis. Thank you for your reporting. Thank you. Up next, what has made liberals across the country rejoice new this weekend. Well be right back. Friends, colleagues,
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