Transcripts For MSNBCW The Rachel Maddow Show 20180505

As you think about the importance of separation of powers on law day here, any reaction to the news that certain members of the House Freedom caucus have talked about drafting up articles of impeachment despite your best efforts to comply with their document requests . They cant even resist leaking their own drafts. Would you care to elaborate on that . I saw that draft. I mean, i dont know who wrote it. I can tell you, there have been people making threats privately and publicly against me for quite some time, and i think they should understand by now the department of justice is not going to be extorted. Were going to do whats required by the rule of law and any kind of threats that anybody makes are not going to affect the way we do our job. We have a responsibility. We take an oath. Thats the whole point. Everybody in the Department Takes that oath. We have 115,000 employees. And if they violate it they know theyre going to be held accountable. And i know those folks know that im not going to violate my oath. As Deputy Attorney general Rod Rosenstein is essentially the c. O. O. , the chief operating officer, of the whole Justice Department. The attorney general is the head of the Justice Department, right . Technically and in terms of the title. But when it comes to who really runs the place on a daytoday basis its the Deputy Attorney general. It always is. Even still, Deputy Attorney generals are usually not that highprofile. Theyre kind of the workhorse, not the show horse. The reason Rod Rosenstein is really highprofile is because attorney general Jeff Sessions is recused from overseeing any investigations that touch on the 2016 president ial campaign. And that means that Rod Rosenstein, Deputy Attorney general, hes the guy who oversees any such investigation. Hes the one who appointed Robert Mueller to be special counsel, to investigate the russia scandal. Hes the one who oversees the ongoing Mueller Investigation. Thats why Rod Rosenstein is famous. Thats why hes come under such pressure from the president , from the administration broadly, from conservative media, and especially from trumpsupporting republican members of congress. And thats who he was talking to in that remarkable appearance earlier this week when he said the department of justice is not going to be extorted. I am not going to violate my oath. Yeah, you can threaten to impeach me, do whatever you need to do, i am not going to violate my oath and youre not going to extort me. And you could tell from watching him speak that rosenstein is dry, i guess is the right word. Like hes a serious guy. Looks like he parts his hair with a waterpik, right . He is a straight arrow. But at that event earlier this week thats been getting so much attention, i should also tell you that in addition to the Justice Department will not exto extorted, i will not violate my oath stuff, there was also one genuinely funny moment. I think its partly about culture, partly about structure, and partly about the rights enshrined in the constitution. If you would permit me, and i hope you will, id like to take a liberty. Id like to hand you a piece of paper with some words on it. Its not a subpoena, is it . [ laughter ] no. Ill take it. Hes stealing my thunder. It was not in fact a subpoena, although there was a moment when it actually looked like he might be legitimately afraid, not just funny afraid, that it might be a subpoena. But heres what happened next. In which we got a clear and surprising little window into whats really going on inside Rod Rosenstein as he is facing all of this pressure as the president of the United States seems more and more obviously to be gearing up to try to fire him. Or to otherwise push him out as a way of shutting down muellers investigation. Watch. This is what happened next. Hes stealing my thunder. But im happy to give it to you. So id like to hand you a piece of paper with the words of a famous american. Id like you to just take a look at it. And then if youd be so kind to read it slowly and aloud to the audience. Here you go. Well, this is Robert Jackson. Robert jackson was the attorney general of the United States in the roosevelt administration. His portrait also hangs in the Deputy Attorney generals Conference Room. And he gave a speech in the great hall of the department of Justice April 1st of 1940. And he spoke about the role of the federal prosecutor. And it really is for federal prosecutors, it really is a guidebook. Even now many decades later it really stands as the most significant articulation of the principles that govern prosecutors. And this particular excerpt reads the quality if i may, forgive me. I did not give him the name or he he said april 1st, 1940. I mean, this is right from the top. I just wanted to make sure we credit you for that. It is one of my favorite quotes. Yes, sir. And i encourage you to read the whole thing. But this is actually the concluding paragraph. It says, the qualities of a good prosecutor are as elusive and as impossible to define as those which mark a gentleman. And you should read or woman. And those who need to be told would not understand it anyway. A sensitiveness to fair play and sportsmanship is perhaps the best protection against the abuse of power and the citizens safety lies in the prosecutor who tempers zeal with kindness, who seeks truth and not victims, who serves the law and not factional purposes and who approaches his task with humility. I didnt even need to give it to you. Probably not. So theres this moment. Rod rosenstein is reading a quote from 1940 from a speech given by the then attorney general of the United States, whos Robert Jackson. Its kind of a weird moment, right . The guy whos interviewing rosenstein appears to have just given him the quote. Not the name of the person who wrote it or the circumstances under which those remarks were delivered. But rosenstein recognized it, starts expounding on it adlib, who said it, the exact date on which the guy said it, what job he had when he gave those remarks, the building he was in when he gave these remarks, the room he was speaking in, how it has been received across history. He even knows at what point in that speech this quote is taken from. Hes like oh, this is the concluding paragraph. Hmm. Right . And he knows that off the top of his head. The reason Rod Rosenstein knew all that is because that was a quote from his hero. At the department of justice like i said the Deputy Attorney generals really important. Deputy attorney general runs the place. As such the Deputy Attorney general has a big swanky Conference Room of his or her own right outside his or her private office. Heres how Rod Rosenstein has decorated his own Conference Room at the Justice Department. He put up a gigantic portrait of this guy Robert Jackson. Attorney general from fdr. So he actually put it up so its over his own shoulder when hes sitting at the head of the table at that conference table. So other people are meeting with him looking down the table to where Rod Rosenstein sits, they will see Robert Jackson looming over Rod Rosensteins right shoulder, watching over what Rod Rosenstein does. He put that portrait up there himself. Thats his guy. Pride of place for rosenstein. This guy Robert Jackson was solicitor general under fdr which means he argued Supreme Court cases for the federal government when fdr was president. Hes very good at it. He argued almost 40 cases before the Supreme Court, lost less than a handful of them. He was then attorney general in the leadup to the u. S. Entering world war ii. He was attorney general in 1940, 1941. He left being attorney general in 1941 because fdr appointed him to the Supreme Court, became a Supreme Court justice. In 1941 he was on the Supreme Court until he died in office in the 1950s. But interestingly, while he was on the court he took some time off. You never hear of a Supreme Court justice taking leave. But Robert Jackson did. He took leave as a justice of the Supreme Court in 1945 so he could go to germany and be americas lead prosecutor in the nuremberg trials. So a fascinating character in american legal history and somebody who ultimately ends up becoming Rod Rosensteins legal hero, up to and including the handsome portrait of Robert Jackson that looms over rosensteins right shoulder in the Conference Room right outside his office every day. And when Rod Rosenstein on tuesday of this week went to do that event in washington and somebody confronted him out of the blue with a quote from Robert Jackson, he knows it off the top of his head, he expounds on it at length. And that was the day, later on in those remarks is when he went on to say you know what, the Justice Department will not be extorted. And i will not violate my oath. So that was a couple days ago. Now check this out. Rosenstein today. I know lots of cable news shows like everybody talks about the same thing all day long, this is one of those nights when im talking about something nobody else is talking about. I recognize that. But i think this is really, really important. I think a lot of stuff people are talking about right now is deliberate noise that is designed to be enjoyable and ob obscuring of what we should be looking at. This you think is the real deal. Rosenstein decided to do another public appearance today. He doesnt have to do any of these. Right . If youre the Deputy Attorney general you have a lot on your plate. Youre running the Justice Department. In his case hes also overseeing the russia investigation, which is a big deal right now. Hes fending off live impeachment demands from republican members of congress and a deliberate strategy by the president to try to set him up for something so he can blame him for anything to justify firing him. Right . All of this is going on in rosensteins life. And in the middle of that Rod Rosenstein has made the decision to make these multiple public appearances this week. It was tuesday in d. C. The Justice Department will not be extorted. Today he decided he would attend the Montgomery County Bar Association annual meeting. Huh . No offense to Montgomery Countys Bar Association, but this is not like the see and be seen event of the century that no Deputy Attorney general could turn down. I mean, i think its safe to assume that Deputy Attorney general Rod Rosenstein, although he certainly has maryland loyalties, i think he made these public remarks today because he wanted to make more public remarks today. And these remarks he made today were open to the press. And he put this all on the record. And so once again, hes mr. Meticulous. He is mr. Super dry. Hes not exactly john belushi, right . But once again, he gives us one funny and also telling moment. Each year the american Bar Association selects a theme for law day celebrations. This years theme is one i particularly value. [ laughter ] why is everybody laughing . [ applause ] he knows exactly why everybody is laughing. Because while he is running the Justice Department weve got a president and a Republican Party in congress that is hellbent on firing him or impeaching him or removing him because they want to fire their way through the Justice Department in order to make the russia investigation go away. And separation of powers is the only thing that stands in their way. And they know that. And they are very, very prepared to burn that down. And he is the guy on whom the heat is hottest. So he knows why his audience is laughing at this. Separation of powers, near and dear to my heart right now. But he also knows what he has come to say in this lowprofile but public on the record forum. So for the second time in three days, a, we get Robert Jackson again from him. And b, we get a hard shove back against the president and republicans in congress who have been trying to monkeywrench the russia investigation through him, by pressuring the Justice Department, by pressuring rosenstein in particular, by calling him names and calling for his head. But most recently and most presently now by demanding increasingly that rosenstein has to hand over internal documents from the Mueller Investigation that would show the white house what mueller is up to, who hes targeting, how far hes gotten in his investigation. Whats he looking for . Right . Thats the documentation theyre trying to pry out of rosenstein right now. And theyre threatening to impeach him because hes saying no to that. In the midst of an ongoing criminal investigation anybody who is potentially in trouble in that investigation would love to know what the prosecutors have, right . What theyre looking for, who theyre after, what theyve got so far. Thats why its a bedrock rule of Law Enforcement and the Justice Department in particular that you dont hand that stuff over to anyone in the middle of an ongoing investigation. It would impair, impede, and potentially pervert the investigation. So that stuff is sacrosanct. You hold it internally. Nobody gets access. Not congress. Not the president. Not the press. Nobody. Ongoing Law Enforcementsensitive materials are kept within the prosecutors purview. Only. During ongoing investigations. You dont even need to go to law school to have that imbued in you as a rule of law american value, right . As soon as monday of next week republicans in the house of representatives may be mounting an effort to impeach Rod Rosenstein because he will not hand over to them internal documents from the Mueller Investigation. Which they presumably want to use to tip off the white house about what the Mueller Investigation is doing. Well, in this quiet little out of the way off the news cycle appearance today Rod Rosenstein just said no, he will not do that. And if youve got a problem with that, he says you can take it up with the ghost of Robert Jackson. It is a bedrock principle with very few exceptions that we do not discuss investigations. The departments longstanding practice of keeping information confidential has often been the source of disagreement with individual congressmen and sometimes with committees. In 1941 congressman carl vinson wrote a letter to attorney general Robert Jackson. He requested fbi and department of justice reports made in connection with an investigation of labor disputes involving navy contracts. There was no doubt that vinsons committee had a proper role to play in overseeing such issues, which is why he wanted the documents. But attorney general jackson flatly refused the request. He did not compromise at all. Jackson explained that disclosing investigative reports would harm the National Interest in a number of different ways. When attorney general jackson responded to congress in 1941, he referenced case law, statements by prior president s and letters from six attorneys general. Jackson explained that declining to open the fbi files to review by congressional members and staff is, and i quote, an unpleasant duty. He was right about that. But it was in keeping with the separation of powers embodied in our constitutional system. Deputy attorney general Rod Rosenstein speaking today. I know theres i know theres a lot of hangover news today about the fact that Rudy Giuliani is now President Trumps new lawyer and he said a lot of craycray stuff two nights ago that seemed to implicate the president in a lot of new stuff the president was trying to avoid being implicated in, and now the president said rudy didnt mean it and he doesnt know, and rudy put out a statement saying i didnt mean it in the way you thought i meant. I meant it in a good way. I know theres been a lot of hangover discussion today about exactly which particular lie was operative and whether the correction is a new lie or whether anything either of them said on these matters is even purportedly true at this point even on their own terms. Right . I understand why that discussions continued into another day, and i know that it is kind of fun to have that discussion because those guys are incredible characters. But meanwhile, the actual existential threat to the Trump Presidency isnt on cable news. It still derives from the federal criminal and counterintelligence investigation into the president and his campaign. I mean, the main event, the determinative fight for this president is right now i think in his own mind coming down to whether the president has a way to dismantle that investigation. And the way he plainly wants to do that is by forcing out the guy who oversees it, by forcing out rosenstein. And the way theyre trying to force out rosenstein is by backing rosenstein up against a wall and trying to force him to hand over the goods, to show what muellers got, to pry open that investigation and hand over the materials that will show what muellers doing in real time and thereby clear his investigation. And in that main fight, the big fight, the front line, in this weird little Conference Room in Montgomery County, maryland today one of the two combatants in that fight, Rod Rosenstein says i wont do it, i will not hand over fbi internal documents from ongoing cases. That is a bedrock principle. I wont do it. And this is not a theoretical thing. First of all, republicans in Congress Really are demanding that he does that. And they say theyre going to impeach him for not doing it. And second of all, ongoing cases, weve got, and a whole bunch of interesting stuff happened in the ongoing cases today related to this investigation. Muellers prosecutors today went to federal court in d. C. To get a continuance, basically an extension in their case against 13 russian individuals and three russian businesses which they brought felony charges against in mid february. In todays filing muellers prosecutors explained shockingly that they havent been able to get those russians to come to court in the United States yet. On the date the grand jury returned the indictment the court issued summonses for the defendants to appear. The government has attempted service of the summonses by delivering copies of them to the office of the prosecutor general of russia to be delivered to the defendants. That office, however, declined to accept the summonses. The government, meaning the u. S. Government, has also submitted Service Requests to the russian government pursuant to a mutual Legal Assistance treaty but to our knowledge no further steps have been taken within russia to effectuate service. So yeah, its one thing to have the special counsels office bring felony charges against a whole bunch of russians including, you know, an individual putinconnected oligarch in that case. Its one thing to bring those charges against russians. Its another thing to get russia to hand those people over to face trial. So today we actually saw the special counsels office in court arguing for an extension so they can try other ways to make that happen. That said, today we also learned that when Russian Oligarchs connected to Vladimir Putin do come to the United States sometimes they get to meet the special counsels prosecutors upon arrival as a surprise. The New York Times reports today that victor vekselberg, one of the richest men in russia who was just hit with u. S. Sanctions a couple of weeks ago based in part to his proximity to putins government, he apparently visited the new york area by private plane a couple months ago whereupon federal agents working with mr. Mueller stopped him and sought to search his Electronic Devices and questioned him. They confronted him after he stepped off a private plane. New reporting in the times tonight on that. We dont know exactly why Viktor Vekselberg was stopped and questioned by mueller at a new york airport. Nor do we know if they were successful in their effort to obtain and search his Electronic Devices when they confronted him but the times reports tonight that vekselberg did attend the trump inauguration, and maybe thats connected to why he was stopped. According to the times, vekselberg attended the inauguration along with another person who donated a quarter Million Dollars to trumps inaugural fund. According to the times muellers investigators have also questioned that Trump Inaugural Fund donor who brought this Russian Oligarch to d. C. To see trump sworn in. As the times puts it tonight, the interest in vekselberg suggests that the special counsel has intensified its focus on potential connections between Russian Oligarchs and the Trump Campaign and inaugural committee. Also today in the special counsels ongoing prosecution of Trump Campaign chair Paul Manafort, you might have heard there was a riproaring Court Hearing in that case with a 77yearold judge who is known for his enjoyable courtroom theatrics. That judge did not disappoint in terms of drama today. He gave muellers prosecutors a thorough going over, so much so that the president admiringly quoted the judge from the hearing transcript today and complimented him in a campaignstyle speech that he gave today at the nra. Well be talking about that Court Hearing a little later in the show because that riproaring hearing today did have a lot of drama in it but the judge did ask one really, really good question about the prosecution of Paul Manafort. Its a question that as far as i know nobody can answer. And it has really big implications. So well get to that a little bit later on tonight. But i just want to underscore, what Rod Rosenstein is doing, i recognize its been a little off the radar. It was a q a at the newseum in d. C. Then it was him at this Bar Association meeting for their annual meeting for law day in maryland. And i realize those things seem off the radar, right . But he really is doing something here. House republicans who support trump really are planning something, apparently for early next week where theyre going to try to bring impeachment proceedings against rosenstein directly to the floor of the house without putting it through even the Committee Process or holding any hearings. The reason theyre going to try this, the reason they want to get rid of rosenstein is because they have think its the way to get rid of the Mueller Investigation. Well, the way they are laying a predicate for doing this next week, for an impeachment effort against rosenstein or a firing of him by the president , is that they are demanding that rosenstein hand over materials about muellers ongoing investigation, and these are materials he cant hand over and these are materials that he now insistently says he will not hand over. At the start of this week rosenstein formally rejected in writing these members of congress this latest efforts from the members of congress to get full scope of everyone and everything muellers been authorized to look at. The following day there was rosenstein in public saying the Justice Department will not be extorted. Then today, not to put too fine a point on it, he says im not handing over fbi files from an ongoing investigation. Not going to do it. It is a bedrock principle with very few exceptions that we do not discuss investigations. Declining to open the fbi files to review by congressional members and staff is, and i quote, an unpleasant duty. But it is in keeping with the separation of powers embodied in our constitutional system. So this is a real fight. This is a real fight. He is taking his stand here. While the president and Congressional Republicans are taking aim at him. This is his defense. We should notice that he is doing this in public. In terms of his offense, well, we saw that for the first time last night with this in the New York Times. A former federal Law Enforcement official familiar with the departments views says that mr. Rosenstein and top fbi officials have come to suspect that some lawmakers are using their Oversight Authority to gain intelligence about the Mueller Investigation so it can be shared with the white house. His defense is youre not going to pressure me into monkeywrenching this investigation. Im not going to be extorted. I will not violate my oath. His offense is, and you know what . Your efforts to do that look suspiciously like you in congress are using your powers as members of congress to try to obstruct an ongoing fbi investigation. Now, has a member of congress ever gotten busted for something that serious when it comes to an open Law Enforcement matter . Ive learned not to make assumptions about these things. Hold that thought. Let your inner light loose with one a day womens. A complete multivitamin specially formulated with key Nutrients Plus vitamin d for bone health support. Your one a day is showing. Now im gonna tell my momma that im a traveller im gonna follow the sun now im gonna tell my momma that im a traveller im gonna follow the sun transitions™ light under control™ that goes beyond assumingl pet ingredients are safe. To knowing they are. Going beyond expectations. Because our pets deserve it. Beyond. Natural pet food. Mr. Elliot, whats your wiwifi . Ssword . Wifis ordinary. Basic. Do i look basic . Nope which is why i have xfinity xfi. Its super fast and you can control every device in the house. [ child offscreen ] hey lets basement. And thanks to these xfi pods, the signal reaches down here, too. So sophie, i have an xfi password, and its daditude. Simple. Easy. Awesome. Xfinity. The future of awesome. Each year the american Bar Association selects a theme for law day celebrations. This years theme is one i particularly value. The separation of powers. [laughter] why is everybody laughing . Joining us now is nbc news president ial historian michael beschloss. Mr. Beschloss, thank you for being here. Im so happy to have you here. Me too. Thanks, rachel. Once again im sort of talking about something that im stuck on as something that seems particularly important to me that im not sure anybody else in the News Business is stuck on, but i am struck by Rod Rosenstein making these two sort of rare public appearances this week, both of which he seems to be drawing a line in the sand, citing his heroes from Justice Departments past and saying im not going to do what they think im going to do. Im going to draw the line here, im not going to be extorted. I wanted to ask you to comment on that tonight because i dont know if theres any sort of historical precedent we should be looking at when we see him doing this. Well, he is drawing the line. The best precedent goes right back to Archibald Cox who in october of 1973 was asked by president nixon lay off, stop asking for my tapes. And if Archibald Cox had been a nixon lackey he would have said all right, i wont ask for them anymore. Conceivably nixon might have even destroyed the tapes. And if nixon had destroyed those incriminating tapes i think theres a good chance he would have served for a whole eight years, would never have been driven out of office. Wow. The other thing rosenstein is engaging with directly here is something that, again, i dont know if it is i dont know if theres precedent for it. Weve got a fascinating blank quote in the New York Times which cites a former federal Law Enforcement official whos said to be familiar with rosensteins thinking and that of senior officials at the fbi who say they have come to suspect that some lawmakers are using their position as members of congress to try to get Law Enforcementsensitive materials about the Mueller Investigation so they can hand them over to the white house, basically to tip the white house off about their the president s liability in this investigation. Saying that they suspect members of congress are doing that. Has any member of congress ever tried to do that or been busted for doing Something Like that . Is there any historical precedent for that that you know of . Not busted in a big way. Rosenstein mentioned one case was not exactly the same, but in that speech today where congressman carl vinson of georgia was asking Robert Jackson, who is a hero, who was attorney general, as you were mentioning earlier, for fbi information on a labor dispute with the navy, and that is when jackson said no, this would damage national security, would compromise our investigation, and vinson laid off. And thats why congress usually does not do things like that. So when we see members of congress, i agree with you, very possibly trying to abuse their office, get Sensitive Information out of the fbi and the doj and then presumably hand it to Donald Trumps defense team, that is something we dont see in american history. Its totally off base. And rosenstein in his quiet, tidy way i think this week with these public remarks is trying to sound a sort of alarm about that. And i think we may be seeing a hero of the order of Robert Jackson in Rod Rosenstein. Anyone who worries about the vitality of this democracy, just think about what happened that led to the possibility of Rod Rosenstein being the Deputy Attorney general and standing up to power and conceivably its not too much to say saving this democracy. 30 years from now americans may conclude that in history books. Well see what he does and not just what he says before we get there. Thats for sure. Certainly hes starting to say stuff in public that is really important at this moment. Totally important. President ial historian michael beschloss, really appreciate your time tonight. Thank you, rachel. Be well. More ahead tonight. Because its friday we have some new breaking news, in this case some new breaking news im told is about the fbi. Well have that story for you right after the break. Stay with us. But mania, such as unusual changes in your mood, activity or energy levels, can leave you on shaky ground. Help take control by asking about your treatment options. Vraylar is approved for the acute treatment of manic or mixed episodes of bipolar i disorder in adults. Clinical studies showed that vraylar reduced overall manic symptoms. Vraylar should not be used in elderly patients with dementia due to increased risk of death or stroke. Call your doctor about fever, stiff muscles, or confusion, which may mean a lifethreatening reaction, or uncontrollable muscle movements, which may be permanent. Side effects may not appear for several weeks. High cholesterol and weight gain; high blood sugar, which can lead to coma or death; decreased white blood cells, which can be fatal; dizziness upon standing; falls; seizures; impaired judgment; heat sensitivity; and trouble swallowing may occur. Youre more than just your bipolar i. Ask your doctor about vraylar. [ drum roll ]. Emily lapier from ames, iowa. This is emilys third nomination and first win. Um. So, just. Wow um, first of all, to my fellow nominees, it is an honor sharing the road with you. And of course, to the progressive snapshot app for giving good drivers the discounts no, i have to say it for giving good drivers the discounts they deserve. Safe driving for giving good drivers the discounts they deserve. You wouldnt accept from any one else. Why accept it from your allergy pills . Flonase relieves your worst symptoms including nasal congestion, which most pills dont. Flonase helps block 6 key inflammatory substances. Most pills only block one. Flonase. We have some breaking news tonight concerning the fbi. New york times just now reporting that two fbi officials resigned tonight. One of those officials is an fbi lawyer who has become a real bogeyman on the right. Her name is lisa paige. Lisa paige was counsel at the fbi to both fired director james comey and Deputy Director Andrew Mccabe who has also been fired. Lisa paige became a character in conservative media fever dreams about the Mueller Investigation when it emerged that she and another senior fbi agent, who was overseeing part of the investigation into the trumprussia connection, they had exchanged Text Messages, personal messages snarking at or speaking negatively or in some cases speaking positively of scaramucci various political figures, including donald trump but also, honestly Hillary Clinton and john kasich and ted cruz and Bernie Sanders and eric holder and a whole bunch of other people too. The Text Messages started to be made public by republican members of congress in january. But lisa paige has stayed on at the bureau since then until tonight where we have and now we have learned she has resigned and left the bureau. The New York Times also reports tonight that the other fbi official who is gone as of today is james baker. Now, hes a very senior fbi official. Until december he was general counsel at the fbi. Hes one of the people who james comey briefed about his interactions with the president , leading up to President Trump firing james comey. Mr. Baker was reassigned to some unknown job in the fbi after comeys firing whereupon republicans and conservative media figures started accusing him of being the source who leaked the existence of the Christopher Steele dossier to reporters. According to our reporting, mr. Baker was reassigned to basically a potted plant job at the fbi, one much further down the food chain than his previous job as the top lawyer at the fbi. But there really was no explanation for the reassignment. Well, the New York Times reports tonight that baker had been investigated by doj on suspicion of having shared classified information with reporters, though he certainly has not been charged with that. Mr. Baker also tells the New York Times that he is joining the Brookings Institution now upon leaving the fbi. He tells the times, i love the fbi. I have tremendous respect for the bureau. The fbi was great, is great, and will be great. Which presumably means it doesnt need to be made great again. So thats the breaking news tonight out of the fbi. The New York Times is reporting that the decisions by lisa paige and jim baker to resign from the fbi today, those decisions to resign were reportedly not related to each other. These things both happening at once but apparently not as connected matters. We do know that both of them worked closely with comey during his time as fbi director, particularly during the investigation into Hillary Clintons email server as well as the start of the investigation into the Trump Campaign and russia. We also know thanks to comeys testimony that baker was one of the people that comey told about his interactions with the president at the start of the administration and Andrew Mccabe, another one of those people, when he was fired from the bureau recently he said in no Uncertain Terms that he believes his role as a corroborating witness for comey is the reason why he was pushed out. Joining us now is matt miller. Hes former chief spokesperson at the Justice Department. Matt, thanks for getting to a studio for with us this breaking news tonight. I really appreciate it on a friday night. Of course. Happy to. Whats your reaction to the news of these resignations tonight . So ive talked to people tonight close to both lisa page and to jim baker and what im told is they were indeed voluntary resignations and they were coincidental. Im not even sure they each knew that the other was leaving today. And i believe that. However, they both were reassigned, as noted, in recent months. Lisa was moved into procurement. Jim baker im told was put into special projects. And these are two of the most kind of Accomplished National security lawyers at the fbi now doing positions where they basically couldnt exercise their talents to the fullest. And im not surprised they would leave. So i dont think they were directly pushed out but they were put in positions that were basically untenable for them. And the question you have to ask, theres this cloud that hangs over every decision like this by the Justice Department because of the president s constant attacks. He attacked both of these people by name on multiple occasions. You have to ask, are decisions to fire people like andy mccabe, are decisions to reassign people like jim baker and lisa, are they decisions made fully on the merits or does the president putting his pressure on the bureau just tip the scale a little bit in a direction it shouldnt . In terms of weve been talking a lot tonight about the separation of powers and the independence of the Justice Department, the freedom of the fbi to pursue investigations including into highranking political figures without pressure. Talking about Rod Rosensteins Public Comments on those matters this week which i think are important. Do you have any sense within the Justice Department or within the fbi what the feeling is about the treatment of people like baker and page and mccabe and comey, these people who have both been both been pushed out or sort of led to resign by being reassigned and taken away from the work they were doing before or overtly fired while at the same time the president s really been mounting an attack. How does that play within doj, within the fbi . Its a little bit of a mixed bag because people inside the Justice Department and inside the bureau really resent the attacks by the president and they really feel he has been treating not just all of the people hes attacking by name but really the work of everyone in the fbi and the Justice Department in a way thats completely unfair and tarnishes the tarnishes the reputation of those two fine agencies. So that at the same time thats happening, though, there is this outstanding Inspector General report. And so you know, there are questions hanging over jim baker, hanging over lisa page. Not for what the president has accused them of but of course their role in the 2016 election, what they advised jim comey to do both in making the july holding the july press conference and releasing that letter so close to the election. So while i think people resent the attacks and see them as unfair, i think people are being treated unfairly, inside the fbi there is a little bit of withholding of judgment until people not just inside the department but outside, alumni like myself can see that Inspector General report and see what some of these factors that have been rumored for so long actually are. And among the things that Rod Rosenstein said today in these public remarks was that Inspector General report should be out in a matter of weeks. Well see. Well see. Hes been saying that for a while. I know people who have been subject to that report, their attorneys still havent seen copies, which happens. They get a chance to respond. As of earlier this week some of these subjects still hadnt seen copies. I think we might be a good ways away from it being finalized and released. Thank you. That is very helpful, matt. Much appreciated. Matt miller, former spokesperson for the Justice Department. Really appreciate your time tonight. Thank you. Sure. I should tell you that james comey himself has weighed in on one of these resignations tonight. James baker, who again was general counsel at the fbi, which is a very highranking job, top lawyer for the bureau. James comey tonight saying, a great Public Servant retired from the fbi today. Jim bakers integrity and commitment to the rule of law have benefited our country through five president s of both parties. We are fortunate he and so many others choose to devote their lives to justice. Much more ahead tonight. Stay with us. 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Donald Trump Campaign chairman Paul Manafort was in court today in virginia. Hes due to be tried there this summer on bank and tax fraud charges alongside another trial that hes expecting in the neighboring jurisdiction of washington, d. C. But at todays virginia hearing manaforts lawyers argued that the charges against him should be dropped because the special counsel is basically out on a limb. The argument for manafort and his team is that the mueller prosecutors dont have the right to bring these charges against manafort, its not within their legal authority. We expected that argument from manafort and his lawyers. They made this argument before in d. C. They argued they brought a civil lawsuit saying the whole case against manafort should be thrown out and the special counsels office should basically be burned down. That case was dismissed last week. So we sort of expected these remarks these arguments from manafort and his lawyers today in virginia. But then there was a weird turn. Because then a party to this hearing today who doesnt usually make headlines in cases like this himself made a bunch of headlines. The judge in this case made all the headlines from this hearing today because he lost his temper a few times during the onehourlong hearing and he really stuck it to the prosecutors. Saying at one point, you dont really care about mr. Manaforts bank fraud. You really this is the judge. You really care about what information mr. Manafort could give you that would reflect on mr. Trump or lead to his prosecution or impeachment or whatever. The or whatever is the best part. Wow. The judge pointed out that the investigation into trump Attorney Michael Cohen was determined to be unrelated to the special counsels primary work and so in the Michael Cohen case that one wasnt brought forward by the special counsels office and Robert Muellers team. Instead they referred that one out to federal prosecutors in new york. So the judge today really lambasted all the special counsels prosecutors. But then he asked this really, really interesting and sort of intriguing question. If the Michael Cohen case can become just a local prosecution in new york, why cant the Paul Manafort case become a local prosecution in d. C. Or indeed in virginia . Decent question. Why does one of them get halved off and one of them still pursued by muellers prosecutors themselves . So far weve seen nothing in the prosecutors filings in the manafort case that shows a connection to Russian Campaign interference in the president ial election. If the manafort crimes are a separate discrete matter, if theyre all about his bank fraud and tax fraud charges related to his work in ukraine years ago, then why wouldnt those also be handed off to separate federal prosecutors like they did with Michael Cohen . Well, heres how the government responded to that today. The prosecutor said, the special counsels office takes very seriously the primary mission it was assigned in examining russian interference in the 2016 election, adding that if it uncovered criminal activity that wasnt necessarily related they would refer it to another office. If the criminal activity by Paul Manafort was not related to russian interference in the 2016 election, theyd refer it to another office, and thats why they havent referred it to another office. Thats what the prosecutor said in court today. Does that mean that these multiple felonies against Paul Manafort, the case unspooling in these two jurisdictions is related to russian interference in the 2016 election and we just cant see it . If so, when can we find out . Is this judge going to make them show their hands on it . How weird is it the judge screamed at everyone and then asked that really good question . Turns out thats all answerable. Stay with us. Your sorry not sorry thing. Your out with the old in with the new, onto bigger and better thing. Get the live tv you love. No bulky hardware. No satellite. No annual contract. Try directv now for 10 mo for 3 months. More for your thing. Thats our thing. Visit directvnow dot com racing isnt the only and with godaddy, im making my ideas real. With godaddy you can get a website to sell online. And it will look good. I made my own way. Now its time to make yours. Everything is working just like it should hello. Give me an hour in tanning room 3. Cheers thats confident. But its not kayak confident. Kayak searches hundreds of travel sites to help me plan the best trip. So im more than confident. Forgot me goggles. Kayak. Search one and done. Because its friday night, more breaking news the New York Times has just posted this new story, quote, trump said to know of hush payment months before he denied it. The times just posting this now citing two sources saying that months before the president told reporters on air force one that he knew nothing of a 130,000 payment to stormy daniels, according to the times sources he knew about that payment months previously. Mcquade. Shes a former u. S. Attorney in michigan. Its great to have you here. Thank you, rachel. More breaking news, its like youre an angel who brings it with you every time we book you. Heres how i feel, the he said, he said, he said, oops we were all lying well have another story tomorrow. This lying circus about the Michael Cohen case and this payment, i feel like its sort of turning out to be exhausting. As youre watching this as a former prosecutor, are you in wait and see mode in terms of what counts as Important Information on this story, or if the president is proven to have had knowledge about this while he was denying it to the public, will that end up being legally important . The public statements are not necessarily illegal. I think at some point you hope the American Public wants to hold someone accountable who lies to them repeatedly, but i think the shifting stories is what matters to a prosecutor. That the story keeps changing, because that suggests some sort of consciousness of guilt, theres something to be hidden here. Maybe its the embarrassment of having the relationship with a porn star is whats hidden. But when someone changes their story so frequently that sets off red flags for a prosecutor that there might be something more here than meets the eye. It seems whats driving the shifting stories is the fbi raid on Michael Cohen and whatever federal prosecutors are pursuing with regard to this payment, mr. Cohen and mr. Trump. Theres something about this case thats driving them to come up with new stories about it. I agree. It seems like theyre desperate. You mentioned in recent days theyre on the edge of the cliff and they have to figure out a strategy. They know the truth is going to come out so they have to get in front of it as much as they can. The judge in the manafort case in virginia today raised a very interesting question. He got headlines for some other reasons, for really giving it to the prosecutors, but he said to them, why did you go off the Michael Cohen and make that a Southern District of new york case, why didnt you do that with manafort . Theres nothing in your filings that says its about elections, why do this one as a special counsels Office Prosecutors and stave the other one off . I think there is a reason for that. Because there is a relationship between the manafort charges and russian interference with the election. Cohen is someone that, im sure, the Justice Department would like to see flip just as much as manafort. The judge accused the prosecutors of only charging manafort because they want him to flip. But the fact that they said we followed the money, it seems to me that the conduct thats charged both in virginia and d. C. Against Paul Manafort all arises from that work he did for the government of ukraine with associates of russian and political figures associated with russia and oligarchs. So even if they dont have concrete proof that this is about russian interference with the election, looking at the flow of money is important to understand motives and leverage and extortion and blackmail and other things i think they see it as being intertwined with the russia investigation. Barbara mcquade, former u. S. Attorney in michigan. Thank you, barb. Much appreciated. Thanks, rachel. Well be right back. Stay with us. [upbeat music] now im gonna tell my momma that im a traveller im gonna follow the sun now im gonna tell my momma that im a traveller im gonna follow the sun transitions™ light under control™ let your inner light loose with one a day womens. Transitions™ a complete multivitamin specially formulated with key Nutrients Plus vitamin d for bone health support. Your one a day is showing. Happy friday night. Thank you for being with us tonight i hope you have a wonder weekend. Now its time for the last word with ally velshi. Thank you great to see you. I hope you have a great weekend. I will. Im ally velshi in for lawrence odonnell. We have trumps tangled web from russia collusion, to the president s tortured relationship with the truth well look at it all over the