Within two days, though, the president slipped off that original rationale like he was falling off a slippery rock, when he told Nbcs Lester Holt that actually, when he made the decision to fire . J7z comey, hed the russia issue on his mind. And then, he said the same thing to highranking russian officials, who he invited into c toe the oval office. He said, quote, i just fired the head of the fbi. I faced great pressu4az puaq of russia. Thats taken off. James comey himself saidsia seemed to him that he was getting fired because of the russia investigation. Do you believe the russia investigation played a role . In why i was fired . Yes. Yes, because ive seen the president say so. I take the president at his word that i was fired because of the russia investigation. Something about the way i was conducting it, the president felt created pressure on him that he wanted to relieve. Just like all the rest of us, james comey saw the president admit to lester holt, saw the president brag to russian officials that he had fired the fbi director because of the russia investigation. 3 . N why wouldnt anyone think that was true . We then got lots of detail bolstering james comey sense of that matter. When the Justice Department gyj released the memos that he wrote up at the time, documenting his interactions with the president , memorializing the things the president told him to do or [ui, asked him to do about the russia investigation that comey wouldnt do. So, in the real world, it has never been a mystery as to why the s3ylpdz counsels office might have been looking at potentialzxyi obstruction of je in the form of president cd tru firing the fbi director because of the fbi directors role in this investigation, into the president and his campaign. Firing somebody who is running or overseeing an investigation into you, yeah, thats going to get you investigated for obstruction of justice. In the real world, its never been a big mystery as to why mueller might be pursuing nk whats new now is that now, the white house, or, ee at least th president s new lawyer, has just dropped the official fig leaf. They are flatout admitting it. He fired comey because comey would not, among other things, say that he wasn w ÷c a target the investigation. So, that seems like as good a place as any to start on a night like this, when james comey documented all that stuff the president told him to do about the russia investigation, when he memorialized it in writing, whenhf j briefed it to all thos other senior Justice Department and fbi officials so there would be documented corroborated evidence of the president s intent and his actions leading up to the firing of james comey, well, the president s new lead di concedes, yeah, comey was right. That was why he was fired. So, were done here, right . Its like after you get the we got a confession, do we now wrap this up . Actually, apparently the movie never ends. Even when you get to the end of the plot and the bad guy gets q caught and we all know what what happened, finally, apparently were all still sitting here in the dark indefinitely and the floor is sticky. So, were going to do1 little differently on the show tonight. Theres so much news that has broken in the past 24 hours, in addition to the president s new yeah, i did it admission on the comey firing. Were going to do something we have only done once before during this presidency. Tdtually only once before in the were going to bring in a group of legal experts to be here live with me onset tonight to basically take me to school. To take us all to fake law school, so we can try to get a realistic assessment of the importance of what has just happened tonight and today and last night. Because, from a nonlegal, just news perspective, from a citizens perspective, yes, it is fascinating that the president is making this admission now about firing the fbi director. Its fascinating that hes now admitting that thats what he did and why. But from a legal sense, how does that relate to9] justice, as a realistic legal liability for the president . We will figure that out this hour with expert help. And along the same lines, it is something even weirder than fascinating that iue this will forever be a front page in u. S. President ial history. This is the front page of the New York Times website right now. President acknowledges porn actress payoff. Contradicts earlier claims. What a life we are all living, right . Habv oational day of prayer. It is worth noting that today is the day the president has admitted that james comey was right about why the president fired him. Its also worth noting that today is the day the president has finally admitted that adult film actress stephanie clifford, aka Stormy Daniels, she was also right about the president yg i am confident that when we get to the bottom of this, and we are going to get to the bottom of this, this case is not going to be settled or dismissed until we get to the bottom of it, im confident that were going to discover that the president knew about the agreement, knew about the 130,000, either contemporaneous with the payment or shortly thereafter. Thatv was Stormy Daniels lawyer a week ago. This is today. Trump acknowledges payment to porn star Stormy Daniels. So, ding, ding, ding. Correct. James comey was right about the president s liability there, Stormy Daniels and her lawyer were right about the president s liability on this matter. But again, as admittedly fascinating as that is for us as well figure that out this hour and then theres also the Michael Cohen case, and its revelations today. We know from previous reporting and publicly filed Court Documents in the cohen case that federal prosecutors in new york and federal agents working with them got warrant to surveil multiple email accounts used by Michael Cohen. We know that in executing search warrants pertaining to mr. Cohen, federal agents seized multiple Electronic Devices he used including phones, uo9 blackberrys, tablets and computers. More than a dozen. It has been reported that part of that seizure, federal agents also obtained audio recordings of mr. Cohens phone calls and xhund cases, recordings that mr. Cohen made on those devices that the government now has. x we know that federal agents and prosecutors also seized boxes and boxes and boxes of physical documents from Michael Cohens home, office andmh . Hotel room was living in, and a safety deposit box he maintained. For several hours today, we thought federal agents and prosecutors received authorization to surveil his actual live phone calls, to listen in on wiretap lines. Nbc later corrected that story and said the kind of phone warrant prosecutors got wasnt that high level. It was the kind of warrant that tells you in real time what calls are going into and out from the surveilled phone, but its not the kind of wiretap order that would let them listen in in real time. So, that all happened today in terms of what the federal government, what prosecutors have, in terms of access to information and documentation and communications from Michael Cohen. But now, on top of all that, weve got this new explanation from the president s lawyer, giuliani, as to how exactly things work between President Trump and this lawyer, Michael Cohen. Having something to do with paying some Stormy Daniels woman 130,000, which, i mean, is going to turn out to be perfectly legal. That money was not campaign money. Sorry. Im giving you a fact now that you dont know. Its not campaign money. No Campaign Finance violation. So, they funneled it through the law firm . Funneled it through the law firm and the president repaid it. v cw oh, i didnt know that he did. Yeah. When i heard cohens retainer of 35,000, when he was doing no c work for the president , i said, thats how hes repaying it, with a little profit and a ma for michael. Huh . Thats the arrangement . Is that a normal arrangement . What is a retainer, really . According to the president s lawyer, mr. Giuliani, Michael Cohen was doing no legal work for the president , but thats how the president secretly paid people. He would funnel it through the law firm. This wasnt a deposition. This wasnt like giuliani getting pinned to the wall and accidentally skwaeking. Hes just putting that out there. His explanation of how this works in the president s life is that payments of all kinds, at one point, he calls them harassment payments. Other people call them hush payments. Who knows what kind of payments were talking about here. Payments in the president s life in mr. Giulianis words, are funneled through Michael Cohen, in a way thats designed to make those payments look like Legal Expenses. Even though they are not Legal Expenses because Michael Cohen doesnt actually do any legal work for him. If thats really their system, we can probably safely assume that federal prosecutors now have documentation of that system, given all the stuff they have seized in their investigation of Michael Cohen. Is that going to be a problem for the president . I mean,÷2yhonestly, happy natiol prayer day. Today, we learned that the president , as president , not as a candidate, not as a private citizen, but since he has been president ,. tf by his own accou by his lawyers own account, today we learned that the president , for months, has been paying secret hush money payments to an adult film actress that he has falsely disguised as legal fees that hes paying to a lawyer who he freely admitsm÷oc is not doing l work for him. No problem, right . We will get some expert help here in just a moment as to how exactly this may constitute a problem for the president. But theresn8hn one more thing want to give you a heads up about, before we bring in these folks who are going to help d[ sort of these questions dont. It is a document we have obtained exclusively its not a secret document, but we dont think itsp÷ publicly seen before. Ill show it on the air in a second, becau8y behind all this craziness, in the mueller giuliani admitting all this stuff, and the cohen investigation and the president taking all these shots at the Justice Department, we think that the little document that we just obtained, its a letter, we think it sort of gives a good window into, i dont know if its the president s mindset. Its sort of the trump world mindset, what might be happening there behind the scenes and what we might expect the president to do next. So, what this has to do with is actually the Paul Manafort trial. ue he has multiple charges pending against him in federal court in washington, d. C. And in virginia. In filing a civil lawsuit against the department of justice, saying that they were prosecuting him improperly. His civil lawsuit claimed that the special counsels office is basically a bogus legalo and that at least it isnt empowered to charge Paul Manafort with the stuff they have charged him with. Now, Paul Manafort has already lost this civil case, its been dismissed as of last week, but you might remember that the mueller team, bob muellers prosecutors gave us one really juicy document in their Court Filings where they were trying to febd off this civil suit from Paul Manafort. Remember, the civil suit is saying that the special counsels office is operating illegally, they have no authority to go after Paul Manafort for this stuff. In response, the special counsels office asserted that, yeah, they did have very Clear Authority to do what they did when it came to charging Paul Manafort. In order to make that case in court, they filed this documentz and they filed it in an unsealed way so we could all see it. Its a memo that was written just a few months after the special counsel, Robert Mueller, was appointed, was given his assignment. Its a memo from Rod Rosensteini Deputy Attorney joernl who both appointed Robert Mueller and who now oversees the Mueller Investigation. In the memo dated august 2nd, 2017, the Deputy Attorney general Rod Rosenstein spells out in detail what exactly mueller and his team are cleared to investigate within the realm established for them by the department of justice. Quote, the may 17th, 2017 order that established the special counsel, that order was worded categorically in order to permit its public release without confirmi ining specific investigations1p r involving specific individuals. Bnmh this them random, on the other hand, several months later provides a more specific description of your authority. The following allegations were within the scope of the investigation at the time of your appointment and are within the scope of the order. And then, the whole next section is redacted. Ugh. But then, on the next page, we get an unredacted section about Paul Manafort. That manafort colluded with russia in russias effort to interfere in the election and manafort committed crimes with respect to payments he received when he worked for that prorussia ukrainian dictator. Then the whole rest of the page. And maybe that stuff thats blacked out is more stuff that mueller is cleared to investigate about manafort. Maybe its more stuff that mueller is cleared to investigate acem0q other people. We cant tell. But that threepage memo with the big redactions, it was put in a public court filing by Robert Muellers office last month, so rebut rn this civil c from Paul Manafort. To rebut Paul Manaforts charge that mueller was on some wild goose chase. This document shows in black and white that Robert Mueller and the special counsels office, they were dually and specifically authorized to go after Paul Manafort for the stuff that manafort ultimately got charged with. So, we got that last month. Shortly after that turned up in the docket, shortly after mueller filed that document in court, protrump republican members of congress, who are very bothered by the Mueller Investigation, they insisted that they actually needed to see that whole memo with no redactions. They needed to see all of the other specific information about who mueller is cleared to investigate and what exactly he is investigating them for. D we need to see that this is this is part of the strategy that theyve been pursuing in congress, right, to demand more and more information about the Mueller Investigation, about this live open investigation, while it is still live and open. I mean, we all know, cant comment on an Ongoing Investigation, right . By rule, and in some cases by law, the Justice Department really cant share materials with anyone like that, including congress, in the middle of an Ongoing Investigation, but it seems among protrump republican members of congress, their idea is to demand documents n,from te Deputy Attorney general Rod Rosenstein, demand stuff from him way beyond the stuff he yq could conceivably actually give them. So, he has to say no. But by forcing him to say no, they are hoping to create a pretense to fire him for the terrible crime of not handing over information about a live Ongoing Investigation that could jeopardize that investigation or be used to tip off a]b targets witnesses if it[ahtay so, of course the Justice Department said no when these republican members of Congress Said they wanted to see the whole source memo of everyone mueller is looking at and everything hes looking at them for. Well, weve now got the demand letter that they sent to try to get that document. It was sent on april 9th. It was sent to the Deputy Attorney general, to rod qm rosenstein. Two members of congress, jim jordan and mark meadows, say, its critical that we have access to the entirety of your memo authorizing the investigation. We are requesting to view the full unredacted version of the memo this week. They also say, interestingly, that this memo that they want to see is a, quote, classified document, and they say they got a problem with that. yn the memo status as a classified document raises serious concern that the specific appointment began outside the scope of regulations. Huh . Clearly, these members of congress are freelancing here. Again, this memo from congressman mark meadows and congressman jim jordan to the justice departmenx n its not a all clear they know what theyre talking about. This memo they are requesting isnt classified. Its not marked as a classified document. It is Law Enforcement sensitive, sure. But that is a different thing than classified. Its Law Enforcement sensitive, because letting that memo old without screw this up as a Law Enforcement matter. But its not a classified document. So, at least in one important sense, these members of Congress Making this demand of Rod Rosenstein, they clearly dont know what theyre talking aboutz but this is whats going on in trump land. These kinds of demands are what theyre ceding in Congress Every day now, and what the president is complaining about online now every day to lay down a pretense for why fa senior Justice Department officials need to be fired, for saying no toewn thes crazy requests that they could not say yes to without jeopardizing the Mueller Investigation. And the reason it feels like were getting to the edge of a cliff, i think, right now on this point, is because the Justice Department knows exactly what these members of congress are up to. Quoting from the New York Times today, quote, a former federal Law Enforcement official familiar with the departments views said that mr. Rosenstein and top fbi officials have come to suspect that some lawmakers are using their Oversight Authority to gain intelligence about that investigation so that it could be shared with the white house. G so, the Justice Department and the fbi have come to suspect that some members of congress themselves are basically themselves working to try to obstruct justice by using their status as members of congress to obtain information so they can then, with that information, tip off the president. About the inner workings of this Ongoing Investigation into the president. I mean, if this was a private citizen who was somehow stealing information about the inner workings of the Mueller Investigation and then shoveling it to the white house to tip the president off, we would expect that private citizen to end up in trouble for that, as a matter of obstruction of justice, for querying this ongoing Law Enforcement matter. Could a member of congress be charged with that . Could they go to jail . Every day in this crisisridden presidency has lots of news now. Not every day make you feel like you need to go to fake law school to figure out todays news. Tonight is one of those nights. So, lets try that. Next. Stay with us. Eve your retail business. So that if your customer needs shoes, hes got wide feet. With edgetoedge intelligence youve got near real time inventory updates. Hell find the same shoes in your store that he found online hell be one happy, very forgetful wide footed customer. At t provides edge to edge intelligence. It can do so much for your business, the list goes on and on. Thats the power of. If your customer also forgets socks you could send him a coupon for that item. Does it look like im done . Yet . Shouldnt you be at work . [ mockingly ] shouldnt you be at work . Todd. Hold on. [ engine revs ] arcade game fist pump your real bikes all fixed. Man, you guys are good well, we are the numberone motorcycle insurer in the country. Wait. You have a real motorcycle . And real insurance, with 24hour customer support. Arcade game wipeout oh well. I retire as champion. Game hog champion. Ive been making blades here at gillette for 20 years. I bet im the first blade maker youve ever met. Theres a lot of innovation that goes into making our thinnest longest lasting blades on the market. Precision machinery and highquality materials from around the world. Nobody else even comes close. Its about delivering a more comfortable shave every time. Invented in boston, made and sold around the world. Now starting at 7. 99. Gillette. The best a man can get. On a news day like today, which, lets face it, its kind of every day now. When the news feels like nine separate Rube Goldberg contraptions that youre trying to work your way out of simultaneously and youre a little drunk and its slippery, we wish we had a lawyer or a firm to speak to, who would make sense of daily developments, because so many of the scandals afflicting this presidency are going to end up playing out in courtrooms and are already playing out in legal offices. So, tonight, to that end, we are going to cross our fingers and reprize something we have only done once f4 before in the his of this show. Its time for another issue, another addition, another year, of the Rachel Maddow shows fake law school. Well hash out with some great legal minds some of the questions i have about whats going on in these legal battles around the president with the latest revelations about Stormy Daniels being rooted through the president and what that means, also just trying to understand what kind of legal jeopardy the president and his associates could be in and why theyre admitting what theyre admitting. Danny is nny vsa savalas, de lawyer, two former prosecutors here, thank you for being here. Super nervous to talk tow, very happy that youre here. Let me start with the, some of the Stormy Daniels stuff that we learned today. Danny, whats a retainer . A retainer is an interesting concept. Sometimes its a flat fee but sometimes its an amount thats paid due that you have to put in your Client Trust Account and pay yourself as you bill hourly. But theres a lot of rules that relate to retainers. A retainer, you cant just, in many cases, take someones check or take someones money and just stuff it into your pocket. Just as it is with any business in america, but with lawyers, there are several additional ethical rules. We have to tell our client what were charging them. Ideally, it should be in a written fee agreement. There is a paper trail, rachel, and im not so sure there was one in this case. So, the reason its newly relevant and why were trying to n might legally is that Rudy Giuliani is saying, the way the president retainers were not designed to be loans or money that gets paid out or paid in. Yeah, you cant use your Client Trust Account for that kind of business. Do you agree that there are federal criminal laws that may be implicated here . Well, seems to me like what theyre trying to do is set up a situation where theyre muddying the waters of how1elj the presi could have repaid Michael Cohen, therein so, if he gave 130,000 and it was immediately given back to him, he really hasnt made an illegal contribution to the argument could be that he hasnt made an illegal slow down there for a second. The Campaign Finance issue is, you cant donate s . L 130,000 t somebodys campaign, unless you are giving it to yourself. Mr. Trump could make a 130,000 donation to his campaign, he would have to declare it as suc such. Youre saying that michael if Michael Cohen, which is what he previously said, had given that money himself, hed be on the hook for an illegal donation, the campaign would be on the hook for accepting it, and the payment to Stormy Daniels, then the outgoing flow of funds to her should have been declared as a campaign expenditure. Potentially, right, because theres still up there that the argument is being tossed around, this is a personal matter, not a contribution thats being made to, you know, ensure or to help your candidate get elected. Obviously, there are problems with that. Mr. Giuliani today saying, can you imagine if this came out before the last debate hes acknowledging that the timing of this was keyed to the election. That seems like that issue might be dead. But on the issue of this new reality that they want us to believe, about this funding, if the if giulianis right, and the president did pay ms. Daniels this way, by calling it legal fees, by saying it was money to pay Michael Cohen for his legal representation, though he knew he wasnt legally doing any work for him, is that i get prwise, why they would be doing that. Is that potential lly illegal . Yes, fg]potentially. How . Well, it depends on where the money originally came from. If you are trying to hide the source of the funds, sounds like they were, because they are sort of passing it through, you know, the law firm, trying to disguise it, i think, as a legal retainer,uaz retainer fee, the where did thevo;n unds original come from . If they came from, you know, a legitimate source, then, okay elww say they came from mr. Trumps private personal bank account . Then you probably dont have a separate crime, it still would be in Campaign Finance land. But if it came i dont know where it came from, if it came from a loan that someone didnt disclose with the real purpose of the money, it could be proceeds of a separate crime and youre looking at money laundering, potentially. So, if funds come from an illegal source, like, the most common example, just to make the example, you know, if you get money from selling drugs, and then you pass it through a legitimate source to try to make it look legitimate, that can be your road to money laundering. In this case, it seems like, if when do we take them at their word . Lets take the latest it ration of what they say happened here as their current statement of the facts. The Campaign Finance violation worry here still, even in this newest rudy julian it ration, is that Michael Cohen advanced this purposes o affecting the campaign, campaign did not disclose it as a loan they had received for mr. Cohen. They did not disclose the payment to ms. Daniels as a campaign expenditure, and the president didnt disclose, if he then repaid mr. Cohen for that expenditure, he didnt disslow th disclose he had a personal liability. Nobodys disclosed anything about this. But where did Michael Cohen get the money from . He says his home equity loan. He did say that, but it sounded like giuliani i think its fair to say we dont know thats what im saying. We dont know where the money came from that was paid to her. We have two prosecutors here, and they havent asked, what are the taxhp6g private practice, just talking about strategy, i mean, what do we think is actually going on . Whats actually going on is, you have a couple of statements that are very helpful to the people who want to advance im not guilty of anything. You have if the money is coming from Michael Cohen is paid back, then Michael Cohen, that helps Michael Cohen in his case he wasnt making illegal contributions, because he was giving a personal loan that had nothing to6hg5 do with the camp. Its just a loan that was repaid. This other thing about the retainer agreement that allows a whole bunch of money to sit in a pot that apparently, you know, mt uses to pay off, you know, random people who come up and make claims harassment paps. Whatever those are, fortunately, not part of my practice, but apparently, according to him, its part of his. But what they does is, it moves the president away from the sort of intent to actually violate the Campaign Finance . G laws. If hes given north of 450,000 to go play with and, you know, run off whoever is coming with a false allegation or a true allegation or whatever the case may be, he doesnt really know whats going on with that money. So, its very hard to make the case, as was the case of the jon edwards case, where you had to argue that the recipient of the money, the candidate, and the donors conspired together to violate the Campaign Finance rules. And here, if this money is just thrown into a pot and theyre all just, you know, using it to run off every, you know, person who has an allegation to make, then really, does the president know what that its being used for . I would submit that what theyre doing is, they are just trying to distance theyre helping Michael Cohen and distances him and one of the things we learned here is that the difference between Campaign Finance violations that nobody ever gets in trouble for and the Campaign Finance violations that you get charged with and you potentially go to jail for is when they are willing and they are knowing and they are willful violations. Trying to separate the president s knowledge and intent makes all the difference. Okay, look, its working. Danny, mimi, james, stick around. I have more study Group Questions for you. Stay with us. Its the details that make the difference. Only botox® cosmetic is fda approved to temporarily make frown lines, crows feet and forehead lines look better. Its a quick 10 minute treatment given by a doctor to reduce those lines. Ask your doctor about botox® cosmetic by name. The effects of botox® cosmetic, may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms. Alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness can be a sign of a lifethreatening condition. Do not receive botox® cosmetic if you have a skin infection. Side effects may include allergic reactions, injection site pain, headache, eyelid and eyebrow drooping and eyelid swelling. Tell your doctor about your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, and medications including botulinum toxins as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. The details make a difference. The man makes them matter. See real results at botoxcosmetic. Com men. Now im gonna tell my momma that im a traveller im gonna follow the sun now im gonna tell my momma that im a traveller im gonna follow the sun transitions™ light under control™ handcrafted layers of clean food you can give your kids. Tomatoes. Even the picky ones. Panera. Food as it should be. Now delivered. Class is back in session at the Rachel Maddow show fake law school. Joining us wens8[ ÷ once again,l lawy lawyers. Thank you all, again, for being here. We were talking before the break about Michael Cohen, the president s lawyer, his role in whatever happened with the Stormy Daniels payment. The president , obviously, has to account to the public, in terms of his changing accounts his changing accounts of how this all worked. But then theres also the issue of what Michael Cohen is in trouble for. Hes being pursued by y prosecutors in your old office, mimi, the Southern District of new york. We are told that what they were looking for in those search warrants had to do with the president , had to do with these payments, and were also told that they were doing pretty intrusive surveillance. We know his home, office, hotel room and safety deposit box were searched pursuant to a search warrant. Would that be one search warrant or four, for a search like that . You could do it either way. If theyre all in the same location, ie, new york city, you could go to court with one parent, but list each place separately, and you still have to list probable cause as to each place. Doesnt matter if its in one document or four. They had to say specifically what they thought was in the safety deposit box . Yes. Were told even before it happened, before those search warrants or that search warrant was executed, they were surveilling multiple email accounts related to mr. Cohen. I would take a little bit of issue with the word surveilling. My understanding is they got the emails through a search warrant of his email account. A separate search warrant. Yeah. To his email provider . Yeah. When youre talking about surveillance, monitoring ongoing phone calls as theyre ongoing, you need a title three wiretype. But historical stuff, emails, since thats already happened, you can get that with a search warrant. As far as i know, and again, not a lawyer, and not that smart, the email surveillance was not unknown to Michael Cohen. Its my understanding that they were able to look at his emails, if not in real time, at least while he didnt know they were doing so, so, while they were looking at them, hes sending and receiving new emails. So, is that what were talking about here in terms of i mean, it almost seems like a wiretap, if youre emails with people back and forth all day. It could be a trap and trace, could be a pen register, it could be a search warrant. But the key is that the courts will view a search warrant for ongoing listening the same way they would for an email, because they view the internet as you sending and receiving these packets of information. Its essentially the same search process. We had this interesting thing today where nbc news reported initially there was a wiretap warrant, which would mean listening in on peoples phone calls in real time. Then they changed, they got different reporting, multiple u. S. Officials contesting that, and saying, no, it wasnt that kind of a warrant, where you get to listen in on the call in real time, it was the kind of warrant that you can see in real time what calls are being made and received even if you cant hear them. Yeah. Go ahead. Thats not a warrant, though. So, a search warrant, whether its on email or in a title three on a phone, those allow you to listen to view and listen to content. A pen register is not a warrant, it only has a much lower standard, you dont need probable cause to get it. Okay. It is a kind of a court order, in the sense that a magistrate judge signs off on it, but its a very low threshold and all youre getting is the numbers going in and out of the phone, the time and duration of the calls. No content. Jim, do you agree with this, this is something that is a low tle threshold thing and it happened, but the person thats the subject doesnt know that its there. No, no, that would defeat the purpose. Do you need to have a different order like this for every phone or is it per person . Youre having a call it a trap an trace order. Basically, youre catching the numbers coming in and going out on a particular phone number. So, heres my question. A relatively low level order related to his phones. Not that kind of order at all, as far as we know on the email. On the email, they are reading his emails as theyre coming and going. Thats not not necessarily. They may not be. I dont think it was as far as we know, we dont know anything that the email reading was in real time, which is what we refer to, when we say real time. A search warrant for an email is, you get the order its all the email that exists from that time previous. Now, you can get it renewed and you can keep getting them every 30 days its a different kind of warrant if you want it forward looking, if you want to say, were going to get your emails as they come in. Then it would be a title three. And it might be a pen register, trap and trace, because you may not get the content as thats coming in, but you will get ip addresses, information about where its going and who its coming from. Finally, this makes sense. Im so glad youre here. Danny, mimi, jim, our guests. Two former prosecutors and a defense attorney. I have more for you, well be right back. I have antivirus, but my computers still slow. I think its time for the fixmestick. Fixmestick is a plugin virus removal device. Its the smart, simple way to clean an infected computer, with a whole lot going on inside the stick. [computers sound] this one got around the Antivirus Software not a problem. Were on it. And because it connects to the internet, fixmestick its always up to date. Hello. Give me an hour in tanning room 3. Cheers thats confident. But its not kayak confident. Kayak searches hundreds of travel sites to help me plan the best trip. So im more than confident. Forgot me goggles. Kayak. Search one and done. You wouldnt accept from any one else. Why accept it from your allergy pills . Flonase relieves your worst symptoms including nasal congestion, which most pills dont. Flonase helps block 6 key inflammatory substances. Most pills only block one. Flonase. James mcgovern headed the Criminal Division in the Eastern District of new york. Mimi roca was a prosecutor in the Southern District of new york. Danny savalas is a defense attorney. I want you to put your Heads Together and tell me why im wrong when i saw Rudy Giuliani on television, to my mind, confessing that the president committed obstruction of justice and fired the fbi director because of the fbi directors role in the russia investigation into the president. When Rudy Giuliani said he fired comey because comey wouldnt say he wasnt a target of the investigation, me, as a civilian, as a nonlawyer, i was like, oh, game over, we can all go home early. This is done. This is toast. This is confessing to what weve all been assuming that mueller is trying to nail the president for. Thats how i see it as a layperson. How did you see it as lawyers . So please. One issue, though, is this is giulianis statement, so, a kind of threshold issue is, whats the value of, you know, what your lawyer says on tv he says hes speaking on the president s behalf. Right. So, but it would definitely be something if you were trying to get these admitted in court, you would have to show that he was acting as his agent okay. You cant confess on somebody elses behalf. No. And there would be challenges to that, but you know he goes through lawyers. Yeah, exactly. The next lawyer might have an entirely different story. Totally different confession. Totally different crime. Its not inconsistent that with things that trump has said himself. Thats sort of a threshold thing, if giulianis statements themselves could be evidence of trumps state of mind. Go ahead, danny. Theres a view of the world that the president cant necessarily obstruct justice, because he can fire the director at his pleasure, for any reason, if he just thinks he doesnt do a good job or doesnt like him. Yes, he can. He can lawfully fire the director. But corruption and obstruction statues often depend on an official doing an otherwise lawful act but with a core run motive. He could fire james comey but if the president did that almost all of the white collar crimes, you see bribery, obstruction of justice, they involve and official doing an otherwise unlawful act, but theres some quid pro quo that made it corru corrupt. Im going to ask you why the dollar bills are sweaty in a second. While we all think that Robert Mueller and his prosecutors are investigating the president for whether or not the president s firing of comey was done to obstruct the investigation, werent they supposed to be arguing that the president did it for some reason unrelated to russia . Why would they concede this point . Why would the president s lawyer concede this point, given that this is a matter of active investigation . It doesnt really make much sense. I mean, frankly. It doesnt make much sense. I know what the, you know, as you say, the general publics perception is, if you fire the guy who is leading the investigation against you and you then have somebody admit on your behalf thats why you did it, that doesnt look good. I mean, for appearances, at the very least. And maybe for criminal liability. I mean, i dont think we can overlook the fact that the director serves at the president s pleasure. And he has the authority to remove him, and as danny points out, you know, sometimes you can do something you have the authority to do, but you shouldnt have done it because you are violating a statute at the same time. That said, what weve seen unfold over the last year, year and a half, is why guys like jim comey and donald trump dont actually get along. Seems like they have inconsistent personalities. I dont see donald trump really looking at jim comey as his fbi director which would be a great explanation from his lawyer. Does not like that guy. Instead, to have his lawyer get on tv and say, russia investigation, had to get rid of that guy. And remember, theres other evidence out there, too, right including the president s own statements. And trump having said, you know, i want my a. G. To be loil to me, all sorts of things that enhance the idea this was for a corrupt purpose. Mimi, james, danny, thank you so much. The sweaty dollar bills thing, were going to take up on another show that we do on weekends on a secret network where we swear. Thank you for being in law school with us. Well be right back. Stay with us. Pick 3 of 9 craveable creations for just 15. 99. You can enjoy the classics you love, along with new creations like savory crabtopped shrimp, decadent parmesan truffle shrimp scampi, and creamy shrimp and lobster pasta. Your perfect shrimp plate is just waiting to be discovered. But shrimp trios wont last, so get to red lobster today. And get your red lobster fix with our weekday lunch starting at 7. 99. Mitzi Psoriatic Arthritis tries to get in my way . Watch me. mike ive tried lots of things for my joint pain. Now . Watch me. joni think id give up showing these guys how its done . Please. Real people with active Psoriatic Arthritis are changing the way they fight it. Theyre moving forward with cosentyx. Its a different kind of targeted biologic. Its proven to help people find less joint pain and clearer skin. Dont use if you are allergic to cosentyx. Before starting cosentyx you should be checked for tuberculosis. An increased risk of infections and lowered ability to fight them may occur. Tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms of an infection. Or if you have received a vaccine, or plan to. If you have inflammatory bowel disease tell your doctor if symptoms develop or worsen. Serious allergic reactions may occur. Mitzi with less joint pain, watch me. For less joint pain and clearer skin, ask your rheumatologist about cosentyx. Father Patrick Conroy has served as chaplain of the house of representatives for the last seven years. Until last month, when the most unexpected headline on tax day was that House Speaker paul ryan fired the priest and he wasnt saying why. The speaker demanded father conroys resignation, father conroy said okay, but there was no explanation as to why he was being forced out. Speculation immediately focused on a prayer the chaplain read about the republican tax bill. Quote, may their efforts these days guarantee that there are not winners and losers under new tax laws but benefits balanced and shared by all americans. And blessed are the poorp, the first shall be last. Father conroy was cast out. Well, today he came back. He unquit. He wrote a letter to the House Speaker, paul ryan today, saying, quote, at this time, and upon advice of counsel, i retract and rescind my resignation. And he lists a few reasons. Quote, on friday, april 13th, your chief of staff came to me and informed me you were asking for my letter of resignation. I inquired as to whether or not it was for cause, your staffer mentioned something like, maybe it was a time we had a chaplain that wasnt catholic. Paul ryans chief of staff tonight denies that allegation. But the chaplain has levied that charge, that maybe he was canned with a snide remark about it being time for somebody not catholic. But the chaplain unquit today and there upon, speaker ryan, thinking better of the matter, decided to unfire him, as well. So, as of tonight, father Patrick Conroy now returns to service as chaplain in the house, as it was in the beginning, shall it be ever more. At least until someone else prays for equality. I travel. Even when i travel. For leisure. So i go national, where i can choose any available upgrade in the aisle without starting any conversations or paying any upcharges. What can i say . Control suits me. Go national. Go like a pro. Kyle, we talked about this. Theres no monsters. But you said theyd be watching us all the time. No, no. No, honey, we meant that progressive would be protecting us 24 7. We just bundled home and auto and saved money. Thats nothing to be afraid of. But good night, kyle. [ switch clicks, door closes ] i told you i was just checking the wiring in here, kyle. Hes never like this. I think somethings going on at school. [ sighs ] hes not engaging. Now im gonna tell my momma that im a traveller im gonna follow the sun now im gonna tell my momma that im a traveller im gonna follow the sun transitions™ light under control™ for my constipation, i switch to miralax. Transitions™ stimulant laxatives forcefully stimulate the nerves in your colon. Miralax is different. It works with the water in your body. Unblocking your system naturally. Save up to 5 on miralax. See sundays paper. So, today we learned that the president , as president , not as a candidate, but as president , for months has been paying secret hush money payments to an adult film actress, payments that he has falsely disguised as fees that he was paying to a lawyer for legal work, even though that lawyer is not actually doing any legal work for that money. And that is not the i said, the here, but apparently we all have to stay in this dark theater th playing it out. That does it for us tonight, well see you again tomorrow, now, its time for the last world with lawrence odonnell. Im getting the feeling i did not oversell Rudy Giulianis interview last night, it was happening during the same hour that you were doing your show. Now that youve gotten the chance to