Transcripts For MSNBCW The Rachel Maddow Show 20170510

An event that was canceled. Some logistical question once he was fired today by the white house as to what would physically happen to him in the immediate aftermath of his firing. He was removed effective immediately. So right now he is no longer the director of the fbi. What we believe that director comey is on that plane, which is now taxiing down the runway in los angeles, presumably theyll be flying back to the east coast, presumably, the fbi headquarters in washington. Hell be heading back to washington, but all of this is unscripted at this point. All of this is unprecedented. Historical parallels to what happened today but theres never been anything like this before. One instance previously in u. S. History in which an fbi director has been fired by as president. That was a very different circumstance. It was president bill clinton at the time. The fbi director who was fired was william sessions. There were in effect abuse of office concerns that had been documented against him by the department of justice. Things like using a department of justice aircraft to fly to see his family. Things like using Department Resources to build a fence around his house that didnt seem to have any security purpose. And maybe was just because he wanted a fence at this house. Those kind of concerns that led to sessions leaving. William sessions being fired by president clinton in the 90s. Thats the only precedent weve got for an fbi director being fired. Were left as we watch these remarkable scenes and we wonder whats going to happen next here with james comey. Were left to find other context, other analogies that make this make sense. In 1972, there was a tape made in the oval office. June 23rd, 1972. In that tape, the then president of the United States, richard nixon, and his chief of staff, h. R. Halderman, they talked about how they would cover up what they knew about the watergate breakin, which the Nixon Administration had orchestrated. And there they were on tape talking about how to beat the investigation into it. How to cover it up. And that tape was released to the public on august 5th, 1974. The Supreme Court had ordered the president to release that tape and ultimately, he relented and released that tape. By then, by the time that watergate tape, that oval office tape was released, the watergate scandal was quite ripe. Impeachment proceedings were well under way already. There were 11 republicans on the House Judiciary Committee who voted against impeaching richard nixon. But when that tape came out, that august, all of the 11 republicans on that Judiciary Committee had said they would not impeach nixon. They all said hearing that tape, that they would change their votes. That they would vote to impeach. And three days after that tape came out, august 8th, 1974, the president of the United States resigned. The reason those tapes ever came into the Public Domain is because of a man called Archibald Cox. He was the special prosecutor who was brought in to investigate the watergate case. He was the one who demanded those tapes from the white house and the white house refused and then Archibald Cox subpoenaed those tapes and the white house refused and he brought the white house to court, and the court ruled against nixon and told him to release those tapes and nixon refused. And then what nixon did is he came for Archibald Cox. He told Archibald Cox to lay off about these white house tapes and Archibald Cox looked the president in he eye and would not do that. No, im not going to lay off and so preside nixon told the attorney general to fire Archibald Cox and the attorney general said no and resigned. And so then nixon told the Deputy Attorney general to fire Archibald Cox and the Deputy Attorney general, he, too, said, no, and he resigned. Essentially he had to get the solicitor general to fire Archibald Cox and that became known as the saturday night massacre. But Archibald Cox, yeah, he did get fired. Ultimately, he did get fired but you know what . He got the president fired, too. He is the reason those damning tapes eventually had to be released. And nixons presidency was over less than three days after those tapes came out. So fire the investigators . Sure. Nixon proved you can do that. But nixon also proved the consequences of doing that in the end for a president who has something to hide from those investigators. Today President Trump fired the director of the fbi, james comey. And we will have reaction to that from a number of people who are in a position to know, or in a position to see how serious this is, what is likely to happen now. But just put this in context for a second. How do we get to this point tonight where we saw this private plane take off in l. A. For points unknown with a newly fired fbi director on board and nobody having any idea whats going to happen next. How do we get here tonight . Its a very direct timeline. New president was sworn in 109 days ago. Sworn in january 20th. Four days after he was sworn in, his National Security adviser got questioned by the fbi. We believe he was questioned by the fbi about his connections with foreign governments, specifically russia. Two days after that fbi interview, still, the first week of this new administration, the acting attorney general of the United States went to the white house to alert them that there was something wrong with the National Security adviser. That they were serious, National Security concerns about the National Security adviser. Related to his contacts with the russian government. That first urgent warning to the white house from the acting attorney general came in the first week of this administration. Came on the first thursday that this new president was president. By the following monday, she was gone. Fired by the president. In a dispute over the constitutionality of his muslim ban. A couple weeks later, the National Security adviser was gone. Under circumstances that are, frankly, still murky and unexplained. Soon, though, we got word from the fbi director. The fbi director announcing in an open hearing in the house of representatives that the Trump Campaign is the subject of an open, active counterintelligence investigation by the fbi to determine whether the Trump Campaign collaborated with russia in russias attack on the u. S. President ial election last year. There has never been anything like that in the history of the american presidency. And that announcement, an active counterintelligence investigation into the president , that lens, like the bombshell that it is, the House Intelligence Committee hears that testimony on a monday, on march 20th, then the following week, march 28th, they are due to hear from that acting attorney general who got fired a few days after she warned the white house there was something dangerous and wrong going on with the National Security adviser mike flynn when it came to his contacts with russia. James comey announces the counterintelligence investigation of that hearing on march 20th. Sally yates was due to tell her part of the story. The mike flynn part of the story just eight days later on march 28th. But that did not happen. After the fbi director made his bombshell announcement at devin nunes House Intelligence Committee hearing, chairman nunes got weird. He decided to blowhe whole thing up without explanation. There has still been no explanation for this. He canceled the sally yates hearing. And he got himself thrown off the investigation altogether. A strange stunt at the white house where he claimed to be rushing secret documents to the white house, even though it turns out he got the documents from the white house in the first place. Specifically, he got them apparently from one of his own former staffers and from a former protege of National Security adviser mike flynn who had been left behind at the National Security council, even after flynn left and despite efforts by the new National Security adviser to get rid of that guy. But devin nunes canceled the sally yates hearing. Got himself taken off the investigation altogether. Hes now under investigation by the House Ethics Committee for potentially having disclosed classified information. That was the House Intelligence Committee. Then the House Oversight committee. They decided theyd look into a very specific part of it. Theyd look specifically into mike flynns payments from foreign sources. And despite their very narrow focus on just that piece of it, the House Oversight committee appears to have stumbled on to something unexpectedly rich. Their inquiries turned up the theory that mike flynn had not disclosed his foreign payments from russia, even though hed been told explicitly and in writing that he needed to do that. The Inspector Generals Office announced they started an independent investigation of mike flynn. The white house remarkably remarkably refused to hand over any documents to the House Oversight committee about mike flynn. They would not hand over a single document, a single piece of paper about mike flynn. And thats a an important stonewall there. And the democrats on that committee reacted the way youd expect. They were not happy with that refusal. Democrats on that Committee Said their chairman, Jason Chaffetz, should demand to get those Flynn Documents from the white house. He should subpoena those documents from the white house if necessary to which republican chairman Jason Chaffetz replied, i quit. At that point, Jason Chaffetz quit abruptly and with no notice. He just up and bolted from congress. Altogether. He announced he was leaving washington. Just as soon as his committee stumbled onto the mike flynn russia investigation and specifically the white house telling them, no, were not giving you a single document about it. As soon as that happened, instantly, surprise, no notice. Jason chaffetz says, i quit. Something about the way this story has unfolded. Something about the way this scandal is going freaks people out along the way. Weve been seeing it already, but then you get to now. Yesterday in the United States senate, the former acting attorney general did finally testify, and now we know maybe why devin nunes was so not psyched to hear what she had to say. She testified in addition to giving us the tick tock about her warning to the white house, she testified that there was something about mike flynns underlying behavior when it came to russia that was problematic from the point of view of the Justice Department. Not just him lying about his actions, which is the purported explanation for why he had to go. She says in addition to him lying about his actions, there was Something Else problematic about his underlying behavior that he was lying about. The first thing we did was to explain to mr. Mcgann that the underlying conduct that general flynn had engaged in was problematic in and of itself. What was that underlying conduct . We do not know what mike flynns underlying conduct was that led to this urgent concern by the department. A trip to the white house to say youve got a problem here. We do not know what his underlying conduct was according to the Justice Department but we know the Justice Department has it. Theyve got it. Whatever it is. At that same hearing yesterday, the former director of National Intelligence also said a couple of things that could have made the white house shiver its timbers over the last 24 hours. James clapper testified that when he previously asserted that he had seen no evidence of collusion between the Trump Campaign and russia, he says he was saying he wasnt saying there was no such evidence, that there was no evidence of collusion, said he was speaking from ignorance. Hed been wald off from. He didnt know about the ongoing fbi counterintelligence investigation of that matter when he made that previous statement. To the extent the white house and president have been counting on clapper saying i havent seen evidence of collusion. But if there was evidence of collusion, i wouldnt have seen it. That was one. Second thing James Clapper said that may have freaked out the white house a little bit was this. Over the spring of 2016, multiple european allies passed on Additional Information to the United States about contacts between the Trump Campaign and russians. Is this accurate . I cant answer that. General clapper, is that accurate . Yes, it is, and its also quite sensitive. Okay. Let me ask you this. The specifics are quite sensitive. The specifics are quite sensitive. Question was, over the spring of 2016, multiple european allies passed on Additional Information to the u. S. About contacts between the Trump Campaign and russians. Is that accurate . Yes. The specifics are quite sensitive. So confirmation yesterday from the former director of National Intelligence when he was in a position to know because he was director of National Intelligence then through 2016. He confirmed yesterday that multiple european allies passed information to the u. S. Last year about contacts between the Trump Campaign and russians. Confirmed. Gulp. James clapper also had this to say when he was asked about the president s business interests in russia. General clapper, during your investigation of all things russia, did you ever find a situation where a trump business interest in russia gave you concern . Not in the course of the preparation of the Intelligence Community assessment. Since . Im sorry . At all . Any time . Senator graham, i cant comment on that because that impacts the investigation. Something about the president s russia business ties impacts an investigation. And so, therefore, cannot be discussed in open session. That was yesterday. Today the senate Intelligence Committee announced that they have sent a request to the Treasury Department to the financial crimes unit in the Treasury Department asking for information that agency may have about president donald trump. Or associates of president donald trump. Now this is the office of the Treasury Department that, among other things, investigates International Money laundering. So Senate Intelligence told that office today at the Treasury Department that they want anything that theyve got related to the president. That request went into the Treasury Department as of today. Right after the director of National Intelligence said in an open hearing that trump business ties in russia cannot be discussed in an open hearing because they relate to an ongoing intelligence investigation. That was today. And you know, day after tomorrow, on thursday, fbi director james comey was due to be back in the senate in open session testifying on the trump russia investigation. That will not happen. Today the president fired the fbi director at the direction, he says, of the attorney general. And if that timeline of events that i just laid out doesnt make it clear enough exactly whats going on here and how desperate a moment this is for this white house, the piece of it that puts this in the category not just of another trump scandal, not just of another Law Enforcement or National Security firing that cant be explained by this administration. What puts this in the category of history tonight is whodunit. The staff recommended recusal. They said that since i had involvement with the campaign, i should not be involved in any campaign investigation. I have studied the rules and considered their comments and evaluation. I believe those recommendations are right and just. Therefore, i have recused myself in the matters that deal with the Trump Campaign. That exact language of that recusal is in the press release that we will give to you. Ive said this, quote, i have no decided to recuse myself from any existing or future investigations of any matter relating in any way to the campaigns for president of the United States. Recused. I have now decided to recuse myself from any existing or future investigations of any matter relate in any way to the campaigns for president of the United States. In what world can you both be recused from an investigation and then take it upon yourself to fire the person who is leading that investigation . The fbi director, by his own admission, by his own statement, in public, the fbi director was leading an active counterintelligence investigation into the Trump Campaign and its potential ties with russia. The attorney general, despite that recusal, just fired the fbi director in the middle of that investigation. But, wait. The Justice Department says they are not firing the fbi director over the trump russia investigation. They are firing him over another matter. They say they are firing him over the handling of the clinton email investigation. Specifically, his comments on the clinton email investigation that he made last july. Now whats incredible, whats literally not credible about that is that those comments from james comey were made last july. Why would they be firing him for that now . Or what he did last july. Ill also tell you theres a department of justice Inspector General inquiry into what he said last july. What he said last year about the clinton email inquiry. Theres an Inspector General inquiry into that, if the Trump Administration were so concerned about that, presumably, they would wait for that Inspector General inquiry to finish before they acted on it. So if its about the clinton email investigation, it all in many senses of our timeline here, it makes no sense theyd be firing him now over that. But, even if you think, despite the timeline, oh, that must be why theyre firing him, what is even more incredible about that assertion from the white house is that Jeff Sessions is also recused from anything related to a Hillary Clinton investigation. With regard to secretary clinton and some of the comments i made, i do believe that that could place my objectivity in question. Ive given that thought. I believe the proper thing for me to do would be to recuse myself from any questions involving those kind of investigations that involve secretary clinton that were raised during the campaign. Or could be otherwise connected to it. Recuse myself from any questions involving those kinds of investigations that involve secretary clinton that were raised during the campaign, could be otherwise connected to it. The fbi director was fired today without warning, suddenly, summarily, effective immediately. Fbi director fired today at the direction of the attorney general. The white house says its over a matters related to Hillary Clinton that was raised during the campaign. The attorney general is recused from matters related to Hillary Clinton that were raised in the campaign. The attorney general is also recused from matters related to the trump russia investigation. An investigation the fbi director is now leading. Or was now leading. The Nixon White House had a case to make that the Oval Office Tapes shouldnt be turned over. They had a case to make about that. They had an argument. They lost that argument. They lost that case. And then they tried for a while to defy the law. To fire their way and intimidate their way into getting away with it anyway. And it worked for a hot minute. But it also laid bare what they had to be afraid of. Firing Archibald Cox was the first shovel into Richard Nixons political grave. And it always, always works like that. Joining us now from the Washington Post newsroom is matt who covers the Justice Department for the post. Thanks very much for being here. I know this is an incredibly busy day and night. Thanks for being with us. It is. Thank you for having me. So ive covered the basics here in terms of the big picture, whats happened, and what i see as the relevant timeline and context. Can you update us on what else has happened today in terms of the new fbi acting director being appointed and anything else we expect to happen next . Just as i was sitting down, i was seeing that the Deputy Director had taken over leading the agency, andrew mccabe, who really was mixed up in a lot of the same clinton problems that comey was that the attorney general and the Deputy Attorney general highlighted as reasons for his following. You know what were really looking at now is what was going on in the russia investigation at this moment and did that have any did that contribute here at all . The stated reason is this firing was related to the Clinton Probe and how they handled the Clinton Probe. And i think most people would agree he did not handle that well. But the timing is very weird. Were months away from that. So why now . And i think more importantly, what was going on in that russia case as we speak. The Deputy Attorney general, the newly confirmed deputy Rod Rosenstein, they published his recommendation to attorney general Jeff Sessions on this. They also published attorney general Jeff Sessions letter on this. Also the letter that President Trump wrote to director comey actually effectuating the firing here. Is it a complicated factor that hes supposed to be recused from matters released to Hillary Clinton, issued raised during the Campaign Like the email concern, or to the trump russia investigation itself . Well, thats a really interesting point. Trump is the one to fire comey. It isnt Jeff Sessions who fires james comey. But trump relies on a recommendation from Jeff Sessions. Jeff sessions relies on the word of his Deputy Attorney general who talks all about the clinton case. Well, you raised earlier a great point. Isnt Jeff Sessions supposed to be recused from the clinton case . He said that when he took office and, look, Jeff Sessions on the campaign trail talked a lot about the clinton case. There were good reasons for him to be recused. It is an interesting issue. How can he endorse those findings if hes supposed to be recused from the case . Matt covering the Justice Department for the Washington Post on what is a remarkable day to be covering the Justice Department for the Washington Post. Your paper has done a lot to almost more than anything to increase our understanding of this as a country. Im sure youre proud to be working there tonight but also incredibly busy. Thanks for being with us, matt. Thank you. Joining us is senator sheldon whitehouse, democrat are rhode island. Hes on the senate Judiciary Committee which will have to approve the next fbi director before he or she gets a full up or down vote in the senate. Senator whitehouse had a prominent role in yesterdays hearing with the former acting attorney general sally yates. Thank you for being here. My pleasure. Ive seen your written Statement Today but let me just get your personal reaction to what happened today and how big a deal you think this is. I think its a very big deal. At one level, this is a story of Rod Rosenstein coming in and in an incredibly heartfelt and powerful and compelling memo going through all the things that comey did wrong that violated prosecutorial protocol and summarizing it in a document that i think will live on in the departments history and legacy as you dont do this. And that would be all very understandable. Then the problem of Jeff Sessions getting involved in this given his recusal. And then you have it going up to the white house and the guy being formally fired by a president who he has said he is investigating. And, of course, don mcgann was the center of the hearing yesterday and white House Counsel is probably involved. So its hard to know until we see where this began. But certainly the passion of rosensteins memo suggests there was an enormous amount of pentup frustration and emotion about what comey had done that basically exploded across the pages of that memoranda. Can i ask you about that, though . If this is about what rosensteins memo is about, comeys investigation, thats the subject of the department of justice Inspector General. Its also something where the Deputy Attorney general who is running presumably a lot of the work the department of justice given the recusal, he needs to have confidence in his fbi director, and he could have said, looking at all of that, having been a career guy. This guy is breaking rule after rule after rule. Not only is he getting away with it, but inventing hes retroactive justifications, talking about things that arent true. Hes out of control. Makes no sense. We have to get rid of him. If that were where this began, then its a very different story than if it began in the fevered confines of white House Counsels office or the oval office with them saying, my god, weve got to get rid of this guy and theyre getting really close to us. And both would be true. Why would the attorney general be able to make this recommendation to the president. A formal recommendation which theyve made public if hes formally recused from the matters they say was the basis of the firing . Its hard to explain. Is it illegal . I doubt its illegal. I think that and particularly when you consider the 96 of the fbis business with the department of justice is not the stuff that hes recused from. So one could say you worked your way around this and that that wasnt the basis. But they are saying that its the basis. Put sessions right back in the spotlight again. As you pointed out, the whole echo of watergate is very strong here. Second, youve got a president under investigation by an fbi director firing that fbi director. Third, youve got a recused attorney general recommending to the president that he fire the fbi director, regarding the matter as to which hes recused, and then underlying all of that this truly passionate, well thought through and sincere and real takedown of comeys behavior by a clearly frustrated and infuriated Rod Rosenstein. How that all stacks up . Tbd. The the thing im trying to ask you about is the timing. You dont have insight into why Rod Rosenstein acted when he did. The timing of it related to the russia investigation has a flashing red siren on top of it screaming suspicion in terms of the trump russia investigation. If this was driven by those things he put in his memo. If it was driven by the handling of the clinton investigation, what explains them doing is today . Especially given they know that wed all see the connections to all the russia hasnt been there long. So he comes in. He takes a little time to sort out whats going on. Hes furious. Hes building up. It could have been the straw that broke the camels back was comeys testimony and the Public Disclosure that he had testified falsely to congress and god knows what the conversation was between rosenstein and comey about how the department was going to clean that up. But whatever happened in that exchange might have been the straw that broke the camels back. But in addition to the top down story of potential suspects and targets of an fbi investigation involved in getting rid of the director and a recused attorney general getting involved in the matter, dont forget this underlying piece which is that, in some respects, at long last, the department has said something honest and true about all of comeys misbehavior through all of this. Whether or not its true about why they fired him. Clearly that was piled up. That is a venting of emotion out of rosenstein. Thats a vindication of the departments values against their abuses through this whole process. The Deputy Director mccabe has now been named the acting director of the fbi. Part of the reason hes been in the news in the trump era is because of that strange circumstance we had where the white house contacted the head of the Intelligence Committee in the house and the head of the Intelligence Committee in the senate, both of whom are leading investigations into the trump russia investigation and told them to call reporters on the white houses behalf to quash a story that said there had been contacts under investigation between Trump Campaign officials and russian officials. The person from the fbi who the white house credited for that credited basically with the impetus for those calls was deputy mccabe. Should he be recused because hes already been involved in the white house doing Public Relations work essentially with members of congress and with the press on that subject . Id want to know more before i made that call, but its certainly not a good sign. I think the only good sign in all of this is the department through Rod Rosenstein going back to its basic principles and saying, look. We do not divulge derogatory investigative information about people we havent charged. And then we do not go up to congress and talk about that derogatory investigator information and do not Tell Congress that weve reopened investigations adding more derogatory investigative information about somebody still not charged. That is prosecution and investigation 101. And comeys repeated violation of that and his repeated refusals to come clean and these wild assertions of trying to justify what he did, i think that that was sending off a lot of real alarms all through the department and this at least sets that part right. While raising lots of other questions. While raising so many, questions. Senator whitehouse, do you expect well see more investigation with followup to yates and clapper . A lot of questions raised there that couldnt be answered in open session. Lindsey and i are sitting down shortly to plot next steps. Tell him i said hi and ask him hed like tbe on the Rachel Maddow show. Were going to bring in congssman elijah cummings, the top democrat on the House Oversight and government reform committee. Congressman cummings, thank you for being with us on short notice tonight. Appreciate you joining us. Glad to be with you, rachel. Let me get your reaction to this news that the white house has fired the fbi director tonight on the recommendation of attorney general Jeff Sessions. Rachel, i was shocked. But not really surprised. After hearing sally yates yesterday and, by the way, a thats the epitome of a public servant, a person that i know well. Phenomenal integrity. To come forth and say the things she said. Its interesting that today, now we move to this subject. I thought she laid out a very clear case and i have to tell you, the timing is interesting. It seems as soon as there is a situation where there is some negative evidence coming forward with regard to the president , suddenly there is what i call a hocuspocus move. We then move to another subject. And this one is, without a doubt, not only explosive, but i think it also goes to the heart of our democracy. Congressman cummings, you have been very outspoken about the fact that the white house refused to hand over any documents, even a single page of documentation related to mike flynns vetting to be National Security adviser and his tenure as National Security adviser after your committee, you and congressman chaffetz asked them for information about flynns tenure, his security clearance application process. Whats the status of that now . Chairman chaffetz asked him first of all, rachel, we have still not gotten one single syllable from the white house. Thatsery unusual. Particularly when you have a bipartisan request. And id ask chairman chaffetz about now suddening those records and he has basically said hed not do that. And that leads me to another point, rachel. President trump, there is absolutely no accountability with regard to this president. He basically seems to be able to do whatever he wants. And our republican friends are aiding and abetting that situation. We look at the emoluments situation. Family members making all kinds of money, off the presidency and i could go on and on. But the idea that the white house would not give us one syllable is very unusual. Normally what would happen if there was a dispute, wed get some documents and then wed walk sit down with the white house. That is the democrats and republicans on the committee, and try to work out issues as to whether theres executive privilege or problems that they say. And usually were able to get some documents. If this were Hillary Clinton, the republicans would be trying to impeach her right now. Im telling you. Keep in mind that chairman chaffetz in a matter of maybe two or three weeks back a few months ago, before we went out of session, held six emergency hearings over a course of two or three weeks dealing with records, subpoenas, things of that nature trying to get more information from secretary clinton. And so what i have said to the republicans is that we are to act as a check and balance with regard to the executive branch. We have a job to do. This is not a republican issue, a democrat or independent. This is an american issue. And i am hoping that they will come around. But we dont even know who the chairman of our committee is going to be. Look what happened with nunes. I mean, that was a fiasco. Running around, hiding documents, claiming he got them from somewhere else. This is a major investigation. And so going back to comey, he was the one independent person who i thought would lead an investigation that might lead us to the kinds of facts were looking for. Congressman, youve called for immediate emergency hearings to hear testimony from him, from now former fbi director james comey and from the attorney general and from the Deputy Attorney general. Do you think theres any chance that youll get that . I think theres a possibility. I think basically, but rachel, come on now. The only way we get that is people like the speaker of the house say that im going to put country before party and be a true leader. That the folks at mcconnell, over at the senate do the same thing. We have to have their cooperation. Rachel, you know this. When we are not in power, that is democrats are not in power, we dont call for we cant call for we dont have the power to call for these hearings. We cant make them happen. But if the republicans would stop circling the wagon around this president and circle the wagon around the United States of america, so that we can preserve our democracy, so that generations yet unborn might experience what i experienced as a young man coming up, that is a true democracy, then that will happen. But until then, until they move off of that plateau that they seem to be on, not wanting to look into this and kind of backing off, whenever we seem to be getting close and new evidence comes forward. It will never happen. So then youll have a presidency where there is no accountability. And as President Trump said during the campaign, and he was very, very clear, when he talked about Hillary Clinton saying lock her up, him along with flynn, they said that nobody is above the law. And they are absolutely right. Theres another thing. One of the reasons why we want to bring everybody in, the Deputy Attorney general, and i know Rod Rosenstein. Because he served here in maryland for over ten years as our u. S. Attorney. But, rachel, weve got sessions who says that he recused himself. Now, wait a minute. Am i missing something . You said you recuse yourself from anything to do with Hillary Clinton. You recuse yourself from anything to do with trump and President Trump and the russians. Well, wait a minute now. You now just, as i read the documents that were put forth by the president , he says that the Deputy Attorney general and the attorney general sessions advised him to fire mr. Comey. That doesnt sound like recusal to me. And one of the things we have to be about, its not just what we do. Its what we do says about us. In other words, we want a transparent government. We want one with honesty and integrity. And if anybody wants to know what that integrity looks like, all they have to do is look at clapper and sally yates. Those are the kind of people who will bring us to where we need to be. Congressman elijah cummings, the top democrat on the House Oversight committee. Thank you for being with us tonight. You joined us on short notice. I appreciate it. Thank you. I want to bring in nbc president ial historian Michael Beschloss. I get my Michael Beschloss phone dialing hand just starts acting on i own. For me, obviously, the im trying to find Historical Context that helps me understand the magnitude of what this means. We only have one previous example of an fbi director being fired. Very different circumstances, sessions fired by president clinton over abuse of office claims. The more salient precedent to me seems like, because of the active counterintelligence investigation into this president , seems to me like Archibald Cox who was the special prosecutor at watergate. Is that how you are thinking about it . Does that seem apt to you . Yes. If you and i were talking back in october of 1973 at the on the evening that nixon fired Archibald Cox, i would have said what i would say tonight that one of the cardinal principles of american democracy is no american is above the law, and that principle has been jeopardized tonight. Same thing in october of 1973. Cox was conducting an investigation of nixon with watergate. He was pressing for the watergate tapes that nixon had made. Nixon had told him stop doing this or else and the or else was he fired cox. The fbi was ordered to seal coxs offices. Possibly confiscate the evidence that cox had gathered and shut down the special prosecution force they physically came to his offices. They physically came to his offices and threw out some of the people working there and said were in charge now. The feel of an authoritarian country. There ended up being another special prosecutor after Archibald Cox. Nixons intention was to shut down the investigation totally and not have another special prosecutor with a dig staff that was looking into the watergate scandal along with these tapes. And what happened was there was so much outrage from congress, both democrats and republicans, and across the country, there were demonstrations, people were very angry. It was the first time that people said maybe nixon seriously should be impeached. The outrage was so great. The pressure on nixon that nixon felt compelled not only to point a new special prosecutor but to appoint a very tough guy, Leon Jaworski of texas. Who ended up taking and ultimately, the tapes were sued for and the Supreme Court said, yes, and as a result, they showed that nixon had obstructed justice. Had tried to stop the investigation of the watergate breakin and had to resign. Michael, the issue here in terms of finding historical parallel comes back to me to that point you made at the outset. The question of being above the law. The president now in terms of people who are in some way either directly connected or potentially connected to the trump russia investigation who have been fired, or who have left. Mike flynn in some ways is seen as a potential villain in the trump russia investigation. He whether or not we ever find out about what he did, he certainly is in a position to potentially know if anything else broader than his own actions happened within the campaign. He resigned. We sometimes describe him as having been fired but his resignation was accepted. Sally yates who warned the white house about mike flynn, she was fired by the white house over in a conflict over the muslim ban. There was also shortly thereafter a strange action by the white house where all the u. S. Attorneys were fired. Its within the power of the president to fire all the u. S. Attorneys but they didnt seem to have any replacements lined up, and there was reported there were reports that it was possible that some of the u. S. Attorneys, particularly Southern District of new york, u. S. Attorney might have been involved in an investigation or two exactly right. That touched on the administration. Now the fbi director being fired. That sort of a pattern, we describe that as a nixonian pattern. Right. Is is it . Is it a nixonian pattern . Sure there is. Its a danger to democracy because you have a president who was obviously afraid of an investigation that might find connections between him and his entourage and the russians that might endanger his presidency and you have to assume that these widespread firings are intended to squelch that investigation and also scare others in the government who might investigate other things that are connected to that. The Nixon Library today, did you see the tweet they put out that said fun fact. Nixon ever even fired an fbi director. He did other things that were equally chilling to democracy. But that is a fun fact. It is a fun fact. Michael beschloss, thank you. Thanks for keeping your sense of humor. Im not sure we all have it. Joining us now is tom brokaw, nbc news special correspondent, longtime anchor of nbc nightly news. White house correspondent during the watergate scandal. Mr. Brokaw, its an honor to have you with us. Thank you rachel. Good to be here. I rarely disagree with Michael Beschloss, but to some degree i do tonight. I think that the saturday night massacre was an entirely different dimension. We were very deep into watergate at that point and it was a summary firing by the president of the United States who was under investigation. In this case as weve been hearing during the course of this day, director comey had a lot of selfinflicted wounds. Attorney general sessions put his name on that, even though hed recused himself from that. Nonetheless, comey had made a number of mistakes, right up to the last 24 hours or so before we got to this place. The one thing i learned during watergate, everybody take a deep breath. Lets deal with the facts as we know them and go from daytoday to day and see how they stack up. The thing most interesting in the president s letter to comey was this line. While i greatly appreciate you informing me on three separate occasions that i am not under investigation, and then nonetheless, i would like to get rid of you. He was plainly trying to make his case before the public which had nothing to do with why he was firing comey, according to the outline. So its very much on his mind. Its a very complex situation as these almost always are,achel. Tom, to that point, obviously, that jumped out of the letter just as a strange thing you wouldnt expect to see in a letter like that. Also a very blunt assertion but the president given the fact that the fbi director has said in an open session of the House Intelligence Committee that there is an active counterintelligence investigation that credits includes whether or not Trumps Campaign do you think the president is trying to imply that investigation is closed or is he trying to draw a distinction between an investigation into his campaign versus him personally . I think what he has said repeatedly about the possibility of that investigation, its fake news. Thats his favorite phrase these days. He keeps throwing that out there. Plainly it was on his mind when he wrote that letter to get rid of the attorney general who was in charge of that investigation. And this is not unusual. If you have known donald trump and how he operates, as most of us in new york have over the years, he has his own sphere of reality, as it were. He always has a way of defending or defining what he was doing that may not have anything to do with the facts at all. And so were seeing that here again tonight. Again, the important thing is, brick by brick, lets see where this leads us and then act on that. Thats the important thing. A lot of troubling aspects tonight for the administration. Its a continuation of the chaos from the first day that he took the oath of office and then tonight. The republican head of the Senate Intelligence Committee Said he found this very unsettling the firing of the attorney general during these circumstances. These are bricks beginning to stack up. Nbc special correspondent tom brokaw. Thank you for being with us on this historic night. Apeciate you being here. Joining us now is matthew miller, former department of justice spokesman. What was your reaction to this . I will preface by saying as soon as we hurbd the heard the news was breaking we started calling people we know who have been senior Justice Department officials in previous administrations, anybody who had been sort of at ranking, that kind of Ranking Member of National Security establishment to contact us. Because we were calling so early we were breaking the news to a lot of people by making our booking calls. And everybody was shocked to the point of disturbed. Nobody said i knew it was coming or it happened today. Everybody seemed absolutely floored by it. That is our experience as a show in the moment. What was your spoerns . I found out from a booker and i was immediately on the phone with former colleagues of mine who were all astonished. I think this is a crisis for the country but tragedy for the department of justice. If you look at the letter everything he laid out is right about jim comey. Jim comey did violate a number of department rules. There is one fundamental rule at the department of justice more important than any other and that is independence of the department of justice and fbi to conduct investigations free from political interference. This is just a flagrant act by the white house to try to shut down that investigation. In terms of the attorney generals role here, that is obviously we have this memo from the Deputy Attorney general. We have the letter from the president asserting that he is not under investigation. But in between there we have the attorney general writing to the president making this recommendation and the president saying he is firing the fbi director on the recommendation of the attorney general. The attorney general is recused, says he is recused from all matters related to trump russia investigation and any matters related to Hillary Clinton. Either from what it looks like which is that this is about trump russia or what they say it is about he should be recused in either case. Are we putting too much emphasis on the word recused . It is supposed to mean something. The entire process is a farce. Look at the dates of the memos. Let me tell you, the way the department of Justice Works it is deliberate and slow. If this is his idea he would have worked on the memo and sent it through the chain of command to the attorney general tlmpt would have been a slow deliberation. The fact they are both dated today all lides you to believe this was an outcome that they predetermined. You can imagine the white house saying we need to get rid of jim comey because we cant control him and worked out a way with Jeff Sessions to do it. In terms of the next steps here first of all is there any remedy on the recusal issue with attorney general Jeff Sessions. What would be the appropriate response to Something Like that . What do you expect to happen with the Deputy Director of the fbi being elevated . There is no immediate remedy. He can be investigated by the Inspector Generals Office for not following the recusal. The fundamental problem here is that Jeff Sessions cannot oversee the Justice Department while it is investigating the Trump Campaign. With his recusal he is meeting every day with Jeff Sessions. You can see how clearly these issues all become today with this firing. He has to appoint a special council. I think for other consequences Jeff Sessions needs to be on the hill by the end of the week explaining how this happened, what they talked about with the white house. Did the president request this . Did he bring up the Russian Investigation when he requested it . They need to say all of that on the record under oath to congress. Matthew, i appreciate you being here. Thank you. I want to dip into some reaction tonight from capitol hill. This is a little bit of what Chuck Schumer had to say. Earlier this afternoon President Trump called me and informed me he was firing director comey. I told the president , mr. President , with all due respect you are making a big mistake. That was democratic leader Chuck Schumer speaking today in the senate. It has been interesting. The democrats have responded in the way you just heard there. The democrats have responded i think in large part by being shocked about the timing of this and the circumstances related to the russia investigation and i think they are a little bit all over the map in terms of stated rationale for the firing which had to do with comeys handling of the clinton email investigation last year which was a matter of active investigation by department of justice Inspector General. In terms of the republican response there has been interesting republican response alluded to a moment ago by tom brokaw. Some republican members of the senate expressing their own levels of concern or at least the need for more disclosure about what happened here. Joining us now is andrea mitchell. Hi. Take a deep breath everyone. Let me ask your not only your reaction to this but how big a deal this seems to you in the grand sweep . Huge. This was the investigation of the president and his colleagues according to the fbi director himself the interesting thing as you just alluded to is that clinton world and many other democrats have mixed feelings. I have been talking to a lot of people. They have mixed feelings because they agree with many of the complaints laid out in the letter today. They agree that comey broke so many of the procedures and rules. They have been concerned. You heard Hillary Clinton blaming her defeat on comey even those who dont agree with her do blame comey for contributing to that. That said, there is tremendous distress because they believe that this does jeopardize the investigation. And the fact that you have both senators warner and the republican chairman of intelligence, the comments were so interesting saying this further confuses an already challenging investigation. They are acknowledging that the Intelligence Committee which is main actor already had a really hard job ahead of it. And they were relying on comey to back them up. They dont have professional prosecuto prosecutors. There has been a lot of criticism that the senate Intelligence Committee staff was very good at going at the report and following email trail. Dedicated full time staff. They are not trained to do a spy investigation and go and find the source of the dossier and go to moscow. On the torture report those were full time investigators, people signed just to that investigation. This case it is part timers. They havent done it. So the Investigatory Power is in the fbi and not in the committee. Absolutely. Im told at headquarters today, tonight agents are very loyal to comey despite all of his errors and other criticism of him that they are devastated by this and that there is going to be a huge moral problem there and people are asking what does recusal mean. The fact that the new acting director of the fbi was involved in briefing Reince Priebus inappropriately about New York Times report. Helping manage Public Relations in the press aro the story. What is the attorney generals recusal really mean . If he can fire the person leading the investigation. Why is he involved in that . The whole thing is extraordinary. The way it was done. Comey was addressing the fbi agents. He had come from Police Briefing in miami and l. A. He was in the room addressing them. Its up on the tv screen cable news breaking the story. He thought it was a prank. The tv screens are breaking news behind him while he is speaking to a crowd. They did not give him the courtesy of waiting until he was back in d. C. And letting him know personally. I hear it from democrats that they do have mixed feelings and the criticism about the handling of the clinton investigation is one they have been articulating for months and may have been the difference in the election. To me it andrea mitchell, thank you for joining us tonight. Thank you very much. What a day to be alive. That does it for us tonight. Well see you again tomorrow. Our coverage continues with