Dane county 72 of them. Dane county has said they will continue the stayathome order, madison is the big city in dane county, the mayor of madison, wisconsin is going to join us in this hour. So well find out what she says is going to happen there tomorrow in her city and her county. We dont know yet. Its going to be an interesting situation. A lot of people around the country including michigan are watching to see how this plays out. It doesnt seem like the best thing for Public Health but we shall see, lawrence. Thank you very much. All right. Donald trump who will never buy or ride in an electric vehicle that is not a golf cart is now a big fan of elon musk because elon musk called californias government quote factious that closed his manufacturing plant in california. He knows as much as viruses as donald trump predicted there would be zero cases of coronavirus in the United States by the end of april. April. The month that turned out to be the deadliest month in our lifetimes. This week, elon musk decided to defy californias stayathome order and forced his workers to come back to work at his tesla plant under threats of possibly losing some of their benefits and possibly losing their eligibility to collect unemployment benefits. The New York Times reports tonight that tesla is now negotiating with county officials about how to compile with new safety regulations as the plant resumes production. None of what elon musk has done is typical of what businesses in california have been doing under these stayathome orders. The people of california and california businesses have been very supportive of governor Gavin Newsoms approach to contain the coronavirus and well be joined later in this hour by the person who Governor Newsom appointed to a new task force to find the safest way for california businesses to reopen. He was a very successful businessman himself, now concentrating on climate issues and you will recognize him from the debate stage as former president ial candidate tom steyer. He will join us later in this hour with his plan to keep the coronavirus contained as california gradually reopens and if he has one, his plan to contain elon musk. And so we are once again back to where it all began with the Trump Administration lying about the numbers. That was the first order of business for the first Trump White House press secretary who was ordered to lie about the number of people who showed up for Donald Trumps inauguration. Donald trump couldnt bear the shame of drawing a much smaller crowd than the inaugurations of president obama so the solution of donald trump with numbers he doesnt like whether they be associated with measurements of his wealth or his income or his crowd size or his i. Q. Score, the trump solution is always to simply lie. The daily beast reports President Trump and members of his Coronavirus Task force are pushing officials at the centers for Disease Control and prevention to change how the agency works with states to count coronavirus related deaths and theyre pushing for revisions that could lead to far fewer deaths being counted than originally reported according to five Administration Officials working on the governments response to the pandemic. Lying about his nonexistent billions of dollars or crowd sizes, thats one thing. Lying about these deaths is Something Else entirely. As of tonight, the United States now has 1,397,416 confirmed cases of coronavirus. In his Senate Testimony yesterday, dr. Anthony fauci agreed with senator Bernie Sanders the real number is significantly higher because we have only tested about 2 of the american population. When senator sanders suggested that the real number could be 50 higher, dr. Fauci did not disagree. Most of us feel that the number of deaths are likely higher than that number because given the situation particularly in new york city, when they were really strapped with a very serious challenge to their Health Care System that there may have been people who died at home who did have covid who were not counted as covid because they never really got to the hospital. And so as of tonight, the United States has suffered 84,506 reported deaths from coronavirus and now, donald trump wants to deny that number. The modelling that has so far proved relatively accurate on the Coronavirus Spread in the United States says that on august 27th, the day donald trump is scheduled to be officially renominated as the republican partys candidate for president , the United States of america will have double, double the number of deaths from coronavirus than it has tonight. On Donald Trumps renomination day, the model now projects that we will have about 160,000 confirmed deaths from coronavirus and we can be guaranteed in Donald Trumps acceptance speech that night that number will be ignored or lied about. Donald trump has lied about deaths before. The biggest lie donald trump told as a president ial candidate is that he lost hundreds of friends on 9 11. How did he keep us safe when the World Trade Center the world excuse me. I lost hundreds of friends. When donald trump said that in the South Carolina debate, i immediately tweeted he was lying. The next day donald trump changed the hundreds of friends to many, many friends. He said he lost many friends on 9 11 and i immediately tweeted that was also a lie. The truth is that donald trump lost zero friends on 9 11, zero. He did not attend a single 9 11 funeral, not one. What he was trying to do for his political gain was to steal the grief of thousands of people who lost family members who loved ones and friends on 9 11. Donald trump was trying to steal their grief and make it his own and turn it into political currency. And that same donald trump is now trying to steal the grief of the thousands of American Families who have lost a loved one to coronavirus, the thousands upon thousands of americans who lost a friend to coronavirus. Donald trump wants to steal their grief and make it disappear just throw it away, just pretend that that grief and those deaths do not exist. It is impossible for donald trump to dishonor the american dead in this pandemic more than denying the truth of their deaths, to pretend their deaths did not happen as to pretend their lives did not happen, it is to pretend that their lives did not end in a previously inconceivable way, in a hospital bed alone in a room, no family allowed, no hand holding at the bedside on that final day, in that final moment and then no funeral, no Memorial Service of any kind where the grieving could gather, where they could wrap their arms around each other to try to contain that grief. Donald trump is going to dishonor all of that. They believed they mapped the extent of the depravity of donald trump but theres always more, always. Now that Donald Trumps reelection plan is to lie about the number of deaths from coronavirus, donald trump knows that he is going to have to publicly disagree with the governments leading expert on the coronavirus dr. Anthony fauci and so today, donald trump decided to do that more forcefully than he has in the past. Donald trump using absolutely zero Scientific Authority or intelligence, today tried to contradict this statement that dr. Fauci made yesterday in his Senate Testimony about reopening schools. The idea of having treatments available or a vaccine to facilitate the reentry of students into the fall term would be something that would be a bit of a bridge too far. Even at the top speed were going, we dont see a vaccine playing in the ability of individuals to get back to school this term. What they really want is to know if they are safe, and thats the question that will have to be do with what we discussed earlier about testing. Here is what donald trump had to say about that. I was surprised by his answer, actually, because, you know, its just to me its not an acceptable answer, especially when it comes to schools. The only thing that would be acceptable is professors, teachers, et cetera, over a certain age should take it easy for another few weeks, four weeks, five weeks, who knows, whatever it might be. Not an acceptable answer. That the from the person who said this country was going to go from 15 cases of coronavirus straight down to zero in response to a reporters question. Not an acceptable answer. Thats from the person who america and the world and history must never forget said this. And then i see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute, one minute and is there a way we can do Something Like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs. So it would be interesting to check that. Youre going to have to use medical doctors. It sounds interesting to me. Leading off our discussion tonight, ron klain, he served as chief of the Ebola Task Force during the Obama Administration and dr. Co, the former assistant secretary for health in the Obama Administration and a professor at the Harvard School of publishing health. I want to get your reaction to the Trump Administration trying to force the cdc to recalculate the number of dead from coronavirus. Well, as a physician and a scientist and former assistant secretary for health. I find these developments very disturbing. We need the best science and the best data and the best information possible to guide us into the future. Everybody knows that the number of cases and the number of deaths right now are an estimate. Everybody agrees that theyre under counted actually. We havent had accurate numbers on the cases because the testing has been slow to ramp up. As dr. Fauci mentioned, the number of deaths have been under counted, as well, because there are people who have died at home without testing, died in Nursing Homes without testing, so these are issues of data and science that are critically important to address right now we are wrestling with how to reopen schools and businesses Going Forward and in the fall, we may yet have another wave of covid with seasonal flu. Right now, data and science and facts are critically important that got us into the future. Ron klain, here is the president trying to get the number of dead to change to be pushed down. Obviously, he is intent on lying about it from this point forward and at the same time, suppressing cdc guidelines about how to manage different avenues of reopening and what thresholds you need to meet for example to reopen a school or to reopen a business, they dont want any of those guidelines going out because theyre stricter than donald trump wants. Yeah, i mean, donald trump is launched a war on the facts. Hes launched a war on dr. Fauci. I wish he was fighting as hard against this virus. Tens of thousands of the 80 thousand deaths are unnecessary due to the administrations bundling of this and the more they try to sweep it under the rug and deny the existence of the virus and deny the extent and consequences, theless likely they are to get the response Going Forward. Thats how we got into this mess in the first place. The president spent january and february denying this was a problem and were behind. He wants to downgrade the problem so it wont ramp up. Things we need to do remain the same, lawrence. Whether the president admits or denies. We need testing ramped up, we need Contact Tracing ramped up. We need to accelerate vaccines. The president can lie about facts all they want. People are feeling this in their lives and there is one final fact the government is being honest about, 35 million americans lost their jobs because of the bundled response here and that fact isnt going to go away and americans know if theyre employed or not, it would be hard for the president to spin that. I want to get your reaction to what, basically, this dispute between Anthony Fauci and donald trump and Anthony Faucis statement about reopening schools and his concerns about that and the fact that we will not have a virus when it comes time for the fall late august to im sorry, a vaccine late august to reopen schools with the benefit of a vaccine and that theyre going to have to be very, very careful steps. State schools in california announcing they will not be welcoming students back. And donald trump saying we absolutely have to reopen schools in the fall. Well, i have the great honor of working closely with dr. Fauci when is assistant secretary for health and tony is universally respected as an outstanding researcher and scientist and health expert. He has guided our country through so many Health Threats in the past whether its hiv, or zika or ebola and so in a time like this, he offers outstanding experienced, highlevel scientific advice and hes always very careful and very cautious. He served a number of president s from both sides of the aisle so at a time like this, all officials, the president and all government leaders should be listening carefully to dr. Faucis advice. Its the best science available to us as we move forward. Ron klain, how much more of this you worked with dr. Fauci in the Obama Administration. How much more of this can dr. Fauci take, the president of the United States saying dr. Faucis answers are unacceptable . Well, i think as dr. Ko noted, he served since the Regan Administration and i think hell continue to serve because he does his duty and he believes that what hes doing and its true is saving lives every day. I think that so i think he will take it. Look, he understands that this is a life or death struggle for many families and while the president trying to publicly rid rid kul him, trying to give the americans the best advice is saving lives and i dont think hell walk away from that post. I think a lot of americans will suffer needlessly because the president is doing whatever he can to suppress the truth about what tony fauci thinks to deny it and negate it. I dont think its a fight, i wish the president would do what five predecessors have done which is to take his advise as the best advice on Infectious Disease that our government has. Ron klain and dr. Howard ko, thank you both for starting off our discussion tonight, appreciate it. Thank you, lawrence. Programming note, tomorrow night at this hour we will spent a last word special joe biden with stacy adrams president ial candidate joe biden will be with us for the entire hour and the second half of our discussion we will be joined by stacy abrams working to ensure voting practices in the 2020 election which is much more of a challenge than the year of the coronavirus pandemic. It will be joe biden and stacy abrams first ever joint television appearance. And you viewers at home will have a chance to participate, go to msnbc. Com town hall to submit a question for joe biden and Stacey Abrams tomorrow night at 10 00 p. M. Here on msnbc. And up next, what is likely to be another devastatingly bad hearing for donald trump in the house of representatives will start tomorrow morning at 10 00 a. M. Washington time when a whistle blower from the department of health and Human Services will describe how he believes Donald Trumps failure of the pandemic will lead to quote, the darkest winter in modern history. That the next. Effortless is the lincoln way. So as you head back out on the road, well be doing what we do best. Providing some calm amidst the chaos. With virtual, realtime tours of our vehicles as well as remote purchasing. For a little help, on and off the road. Now when you buy or lease a new lincoln, well make up to 3 payments on your behalf. Now wstand up to moderate to severe rheumatoid arthritis. And take. It. On. With rinvoq. Rinvoq a oncedaily pill. Can dramatically improve symptoms. Rinvoq helps tame pain, stiffness, swelling. And for somerinvoq can even significantly reduce ra fatigue. Thats rinvoq relief. With ra, your overactive immune system. Attacks your joints. Rinvoq regulates it to help stop the attack. 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Tomorrow at 10 00 a. M. Washington time Trump Administration whistle blower dr. Rick bright will testify to congress that the United States is running out of time to prevent what he calls his words, the darkest winter in modern history. That is in his Opening Statement, which was released today. Dr. Bright mourns our window of opportunity is closing if we fail to develop a National Coordinated response based in science, i fear the pandemic will get far worse and be prolonged causing unprecedented illness and fatalities without clear planning and implantation of the steps that i and other experts have outlined 2020 will be the darkest winter in modern history. Dr. Rick bright, the governments top vaccine expert says he was ousted from his position because he resisted efforts to push unproven drugs supported by the president , he will testify that his correct predictions about the threat of the virus and shortages of medical supplies were dismissed by health and Human Services secretary alex aczar and Administration Officials. Dr. Bright gave a preview of what we might be hearing in tomorrow mornings hearing in the house of representatives. We see too many doctors and nurses now dying, and i was thinking that we could have done more to get those masks and those supplies to them sooner and if we had, would they still be alive today . Joining our discussion is democratic congressman of california, member of energy subcommittee. Thank you for joining us tonight. What are you planning to question dr. Bright about . Angle of this will you be going at . Well, lawrence, i think when you read dr. Brights complaint, whats striking is the difference between what Public Health experts along with him were gathering and saying behind the scenes and what the president and administration was publicly putting out in the huge disconnect. So im going to ask him about that and basically try to make sure that we understand that congress understands what the administration knew and when and we need to be able to get to the facts. This is something that dr. Brights opening testimony says. It very important we get to the truth and that we make sure that we base our decisions on science. Thats not what was happening if you take a look at dr. Brights complaint and i think were going to hear more about that tomorrow. I just want to make clear for the audience, its a standard procedure with congressional committees Opening Statement testimony is released the day before the witnesses are required to submit to the committee the day before. It gives us a strong idea of the outlines of what hes going to say but there is a lot of possible detail we can find out tomorrow about exactly what alex aczar did, what other named officials in the various departments did or did not do. That will be the testimony tomorrow that many members of congress are concerned about whether hes raising the alarm bell early on about the need to get more protective equipment and masks. He goes into a conversation in these emails about the need to ramp up to get the syringes and needles we need. Given his testimony and complaint they werent taking him seriously so the two things here that i think are the big points are the truth and science, were being silenced with politics. That the one of the big points and that hes giving out contracts to people based on connections and they werent basing it on science and experts like him and thats a concern well get to the bottom of tomorrow. We can probably bet there will be some kind of donald trump distraction he tries to throw up tomorrow, something to take peoples attention off of this hearing. With dr. Bright testifying at this point at exactly the same point when were getting other corroborating stories Like Administration obviously suppressing cdc guidelines for reopening of schools, reopening of businesses, dr. Bright is not going to be there without corroborating information coming from other sources as weve learned. Well, he has a lot of emails and we have a second witness to back up the testimony of dr. Bright and we cant be distracted by what the president puts out there. The president will do something to district. We know thats his m. O. What we have to focus on is what dr. Bright has to say about what we need to do to prepare as you mentioned in the introduction, dr. Bright is concerned that if we dont prepare looking forward and do what we need, we are going to have the darkest winter of this year and modern history and we cant allow that to happen. Thats why i think its imperative congress have this hearing tomorrow and not be distracted and hopefully the media isnt distracted and focuses on what dr. Bright is saying so congress can look at what hes saying and we can implement things and have the oversight that really we need to hear from him on what needs to be done. In his opening testimony as well, lawrence, dr. Fauci and the importance of dr. Fauci and his testimony on making sure that were doing things appropriately based on science and so here you have the medical experts, the people who know what they are doing, weve got to listen to them and not to the politics of this administration and what theyre trying to tell the public because theres no doubt they have been misleading the public and thats where i am on my line of questioning. Congress woman, thank you very much for joining us tonight. We will be watching the hearing tomorrow at 10 00 a. M. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. And when we come back, the Wisconsin Supreme Court controlled by conservatives struck down on a 43 vote. The democratic governors stayathome order today but its not clear what that will actually mean in wisconsin tomorrow. At least one county announced they will not lift the stay at home policy. Well be joined next by the mayor of madison, wisconsin to find out whats going to happen there tomorrow. You try to stay ahead of the mess. But scrubbing still takes time. Now theres new powerwash dish spray. Its the faster way to clean as you go. Just spray, wipe and rinse. It cleans grease five times faster. New dawn powerwash. Spray, wipe, rinse. Subut when we realized she wasn hebattling sensitive skin, we switched to new tide plus downy free. Its gentle on her skin, and dermatologist recommended. New tide pods plus downy free. 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Today the Wisconsin Supreme Court struck down democratic governor tonys stayathome order which has been extended until may 26th. It was a 4 hv 3 decision for the Supreme Court included in the four deciding votes conservative judge daniel kelly who last month lost his Reelection Campaign to the Supreme Court to liberal jill who will be sworn in to that position on august 1st. The milwaukee journal sential reports the ruling will force the democratic governor and republican control to work with the ebbs and flows the dynamic the two sides have rarely been able to achieve before a poll released yesterday by the Market University law school found 69 of wisconsin registered voters think the stayathome order is an appropriate reaction. Ali interviewed him tonight. People of wisconsin has stuck to it, staying at home making sure they are doing physical distancing. Were doing the right things and unfortunately, in this one failed swoop, four judges who didnt really care about what the statutes talk about have thrown our state into chaos. Were the wild west, ali. There are no restrictions at all across the state of wisconsin. The Tavern League in this case has sent messages and emails to their members saying, were open tonight. Were going to have more cases, more deaths. And its a sad occasion for the state. I cant tell you how disappointed i am. After the courts ruling, dane county announced that it will not lift the stay at home restrictions in that county. Madison is the largest city in dane county. Joining us now, the democratic mayor of madison, wisconsin. Thank you very much for joining us tonight. You just heard the governor call it the wild west, your state of wisconsin which we think of as more mild mannered than that usually but what is going to happen tomorrow . Well, you know, it really is disappointing this ruling. The Supreme Court here has thrown us into chaos without a plan. But as usual, local government is on the front lines of this pandemic and here in madison and dane county, we are continuing on with the safer at home orders. So at least in madison, tomorrow morning is going to be just the same as it was this morning. And so do the counties now have the authority . Did the Supreme Court in effect just leave it open so that the counties do still have this authority to exercise if they want to . Thats correct. The countys authority is based on a different statute than the health secretarys. So we do still have that level of local control. Lets take a look at some polling about what is really happening in wisconsin, the way people really feel about the governor for example. Governor evers has a 64 approval in wisconsin. Donald trump has a 44 approval in wisconsin. Donald trump has a 44 approval in wisconsin. 51 disapproval in wisconsin. And so its very clear that the majority of voters support the governor across the board on this and so what do you expect the behavior to be given that most people are now internalizing these rules for their own safety. What do you expect to see generally in wisconsin tomorrow beyond madison . Listen, the safer at home order has been working. We have been fect effectively flattening the curve in madison but we have hot spots. Im actually quite worried that were going to see an increase in cases because of this order. It really irresponsible. This is the same Supreme Court that thought it was a good idea for us to hold an election during a pandemic, and as a result, dozens and dozens of people have gotten sick. The court didnt learn from that experience, and theyve opened up the state without a plan. Lawrence, this is what happens when you mix politics with pandemic planning. And milwaukee paper saying the governor and legislature have to work together. There is polling information on that. 53 in wisconsin support, they trust the governor and only 33 trust the legislature. So hes far ahead of them on that. Well see how they work it out. Madison mayor, thank you very much for joining our discussion tonight. Really appreciate it. Its a pleasure. Coming up, the leader of the worlds fifth largest economy is trying to manage a careful and gradual reopening of businesses and possibly schools. California governor gavin newsom asked our next guest tom steyer to help guide that opening of businesses in california where so far, everything has been going smoothly except in the view of Billionaire Elon Musk who has called the shutdown of california his word factious. Thats next. Can become your big moment. Thats why theres otezla. Otezla is not a cream. Its a pill that treats plaque psoriasis differently. With otezla, 75 clearer skin is achievable. Dont use if youre allergic to otezla. It may cause severe diarrhea, nausea or vomiting. 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Now it has an Unemployment Rate of 18 with government officials estimating it could go to 25 , the place were talking about is of course california. California has lost more income and more jobs than any other state because california has more income and more jobs and more people than any other state. It is impossible to reopen the economy of the United States successfully without california since california is by far the single largest contributor to the American Economy of the 50 states. Californias governor gavin newsom issued the first stayathome order and Governor Newsom outlined the steps california will take as the state carefully, slowly reopens. I know others are more eager to move more quickly and we will work with every county, with every city there a practical and responsible way but here is the caveat. This is a health driven conversation. It not because we dont want to, its not because we would not like to, its not because we want to be particularly oppressive in terms of peoples desires and needs, its because Public Health dictates that we do this in a judicious and thoughtful way. Governor newsom appointed a Business Recovery task force, which is cochaired by california former democratic president ial candidate tom stier and joining us is the chief economic recovery advisor to California Governor Gavin Newsom and cochair of the task force of business and jobs recovery. Mr. Steyer, welcome back to the program. Last time you were here, you were a president ial candidate. I have a feeling that that was a lot easier than the task in front of you right now. Well, lawrence, its great to be back. And theres nothing id rather be doing than giving advice to a governor who has had a great has done a great job so far at protecting california lives and of outlining a careful way to reopen our economy to do it in a safe, health driven way. This is exactly where id like to be, lawrence. I mentioned the incident with elon musk and tesla. Ive been in california for the last several weeks of this pandemic and seen the behavior, the businesses, people of california very, very minor, you know, kind of disruptions here and there, very small number of people. Most businesses have been completely in agreement with the way the governor has approached this. What can you tell us about the situation at the tesla plant, they are now in negotiations with the county how to operate safely. Is that going to work out . Well, let me start by saying, lawrence, what you said is true, that people in california realize the kind of careful phased reopening of the economy that Governor Newsom described actually is the best way to open the economy both to preserve the health and lives of californians but also to have the most robust recovery and in fact, when you look at what happened between tesla and the county of alameda, the system has worked. I think there is a natural tension between people who are Running Companies and are desperate to get their workers back to work are desperate to start the business again and the authorities who have to make health their number one issue. But i think the reason i said i think this system has worked is people running businesses in california including tesla are also very, very serious about protecting the health and lives of their workers and the people on the health authoritys are also very serious about getting californians back to work as fast as safely possible. So what happened here was a normal a natural tension with people communicating and trusting each other and working out a system so that both of the issues can be dealt with at the same time corporatively. That the success. Yeah, and the county officials were negotiating with the people who actually run the plant. They didnt have to deal with elon musk in the room so it might have been a more reasonable conversation. I want to talk about the link between education and the business sector that youre concentrating on because the challenge of reopening and having workers come back to work is what happens to the kids if theyre still at home unable to go to california schools . So theres an over lap of interest there that you have to deal with, dont you . Absolutely, lawrence. There is no question a conditioned precedent to use a couple fancy words to reopening the economy fully is having kids at school because that frees up their parents to go back fully to work. I think there is another issue Governor Newsom was absolutely focused on long before the coronavirus pandemic and that is the socalled digital divide. Having every family in california have access to highspeed internet. That the something he talked about in the state of state address in january as something thats an equity issue because we want to have california come out of the crisis more just, more sustainable and forward looking but having this crisis and ming that education is going to be partially dependent on every family and every kid having access to highspeed internet means, it puts a different urgency and a different time frame on bridging that digital divide. Thats what this pandemic is doing. Its pointing out inequities in the system. Its pointing out where injustices have been and its really putting feet to the fire to everyone to make sure as part of this crisis we address the inequities for the communities, the underresourced communities, mostly black and brown who are bearing the brunt of the pandemic but who also have been systematically treated unjustly in the past. Tom steyer, as you develop help develop californias guidance on how to step through the reopening, please come back and join us and lay out those steps for us as theyre developed because im sure youre going to discover some things in it that none of us have anticipated. And maybe weeks from now things that you havent anticipated as of tonight. And so i think its going to be fascinating to watch the giant state of california in the reopening because as california goes so goes the nation. Were going to have to watch it closely. Thank you very much for joining us tonight. Thank you for having me, lawrence. Lets come out of this better than we went into it. Thank you very much. And when we come back, testing, testing, testing. Weve all been concentrating on testing. Its all about testing. But what good is testing without effective Contact Tracing . Immunologist dr. James hildreth will join our discussion next to explain why testing needs to be backed up by Contact Tracing and how difficult it is to do an adequate job of Contact Tracing in this country. Thats next. Wayfair has way more ways to renovate your home, from inspiration to installation. Like way more vanities perfect for you. Nice. Way more unique fixtures and tiles. Pairing. Nice. Way more top brands in sinks and faucets. Way more ways to rule your renovation. Nice on any budget, with free shipping. Wayfair. Way more than furniture. vo what does it mean to be americas most Reliable Network . It means helping those who serve stay connected to their families. And now verizon wants to give them something back. 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Much but identifying a high risk of getting infected and intervening to stop that chain of transmission. If we fail to Contact Trace effectively well continue to have new cases appearing in completely unpredictable ways. Numbers and places. And our epidemic will grow more quickly. Joining us once again tonight, dr. James hildreth, the president and ceo of maheri medical college, an Infectious Disease expert. Dr. Hildreth, when i hear about Contact Tracing and we keep realizing that we dont really have the people to do this, those estimates of you need at least 100,000, what in your view do we need for effective Contact Tracing and what are the challenges assuming we do have the personnel to do it . First of all, lawrence, thank you for having me. Im happy to be with you. Contact tracing is essential just as all the other guests have said. Its going to be challenging in some communities because technology is going to be important. Having smartphones where you can load apps and be able to Contact People that way. In a lot of communities theres a Technology Gap and you wont be able to do that. So were still going to need a small army of individuals to do the investigation just to track people down. And this becomes more challenging when you have a large group of individuals whove been around someone whos a positive. That means the number of individuals that need to be contacted or traced is going to be really large and as you can see that can present a lot of challenges. So were going to need a small army of Contact Tracers in this country to be sure. Doctor, is there a challenge in the american sense of private and people whove never really been exposed to questions like this . Who have you seen in the last two weeks . Who have you talked to . Who have you been close to . Thats going to be an odd experience for a lot of people. Yes. And weve gone through this before because you might recall that in the earliest days of the hiv epidemic in this country weve had to identify the sexual contacts of positive individuals to try to let them know that they possibly have been exposed to hiv. And of course when youre talking about sexual intercourse and things like that the privacy becomes even more challenging. So youre right. Theres going to be an issue with privacy and not wanting to reveal a lot of information. And thats going to be one of the problems with the apps that are being developed. The person might not even know theyre being traced because the phone datas being used to do that. Thats one of the problems we have to solve, the ethical issues around Contact Tracing. But weve got to do it because without Contact Tracing were not going to put this virus back in the box. We just have to have Contact Tracing. So doctor, testing without Contact Tracing, all that ends up doing is dealing with the person who tested positive but not dealing with all of the possible people that that person infected. And so the virus continues to spread without Contact Tracing. Correct. Testing in and of itself will tell us where the viruss but our goal is to control the spread of the virus. So if you do testing without the Contact Tracing, you will know where the virus is but there will be no way to keep it from spreading. So youre absolutely right. Contact tracing goes hand in hand with testing. For example, smallpox was eradicated by a vaccine but people dont really understand that Contact Tracing helped us to eradicate smallpox because what they did was identified positive individuals and then selectively vaccinate the people in that community as a way to keep the virus from spreading. Im going to argue that when we get the vaccine we should think about doing exactly that. Make sure we use the vaccine where its most needed. Dr. James hildreth, thank you very much for joining our discussion again tonight. We really appreciate it. Thank you for having me, lawrence. Dr. Hildreth gets tonights last word. The 11th hour with Brian Williams starts now. Well, good evening once again. Day 1,210 of this Trump Administration. 174 days to go until the president ial election. And as predicted on this very broadcast two whole nights ago, today the president criticized his governments chief Infectious Disease expert for his candid testimony during a senate hearing, a hearing where he couldnt appear in person because hes been exposed to a case of coronavirus in the white house during a pandemic. But if youve read any journalism this evening expressing any hint of surprise that trump criticize