Transcripts For MSNBCW The Last Word With Lawrence ODonnell 20200513

Luckily in this hour with his interpretation, because who cares what i think when you can hear neal . Exactly. I cant let you think, lawrence. I want to hear you talk to neal about it. Thank you, rachel. Thanks, lawrence. As we said, Donald Trumps tax returns had their big day in the United States Supreme Court today. Two different cases. The first case that the court listened to, heard the arguments on was the battle over this, a subpoena issued by the house of representatives to the Accounting Firm that has possession of Donald Trumps tax records and the second was a legal battle over a criminal subpoena issued by the Manhattan District Attorney in a criminal investigation that seeks Donald Trumps personal and business tax returns. As i listened to those arguments today, it sounded to me like at least one of those cases is going to be successful in obtaining the trump tax returns. But as i said, you know, why listen to me about it when you can listen to neal katyal, who has argued many cases before the United States Supreme Court, and he will join us later in this hour with his reaction to these historic arguments before the court today, which will also take their place in history among the 2020 Supreme Court arguments that were not held in the Supreme Court chamber. And Laurie Garrett is back with us tonight. Well get her reaction to the testimony we heard from members of the Trump Coronavirus Task force in that Senate Hearing today. Tonight, donald trump is a man alone. The republican senate, who stood by President Trump in his impeachment trial, are not standing by him in his trial by a public jury during the coronavirus pandemic. And that means that dr. Anthony fauci was able to speak publicly today about the pandemic, without donald trump over his shoulder disagreeing with him. In testimony to the Senate Health education labor and pensions committee, when dr. Fauci discussed his expectation that there will be a second wave of coronavirus in the United States, donald trump was not there to grab the microphone after him and say, i dont think that will happen. When dr. Fauci said that it was not extremely likely but just more likely than not that we will have a vaccine within a year or two, donald trump was not there to offer his scientific opinion that we will get a vaccine much sooner than that. Donald trump has actually said we will get a vaccine this year, in 2020. We think were going to have a vaccine by the end of this year, and were pushing very hard. He said that last week, not one of the republican senators on that committee supported any of Donald Trumps thinking about a vaccine or made statements, anything like this. I feel about vaccines like i feel about tests. This is going to go away without a vaccine and were not going to see it again hopefully after a period of time. That was on friday. That was President Trump on friday. That wasnt President Trump in february. Donald trump was saying crazy things like that in february and march, that the virus was just going to disappear. But on friday, knowing everything that we all now know, donald trump actually said on friday this is going to go away without a vaccine. Its going to go away, and were not going to see it again, hopefully after a period of time. Thats a typical trump time frame of reference. A period of time. That is madness. Donald trump said that after living through the deadliest month in america, in his lifetime. And we were all learning more and more and more about this every day during the month of april. Were all learning more about it still every day. Todays hearing included four witnesses from the president s Coronavirus Task force. Dr. Fauci, dr. Robert redfield, head of the cdc. Fda commissioner dr. Stephen hawn, and admiral brett giroir, also a physician. They all listened without objection. When our first guest senator chris murphy said this. Dr. Fauci, dr. Redfield, youve made news today by warning us appropriately of the dangers of states opening too early. But this is infuriating to many of us, because it comes hours after the president declared that we have prevailed over coronavirus, which im just going to tell you, is going to make it much harder on state leaders to keep social distancing restrictions in place. It comes days after the president called on citizens to liberate their states from social distancing orders. And i think youre all noble Public Servants, but i worry youre trying to have it both ways. You say states shouldnt open too early, but then you dont give us the resources to succeed. You work for a president who is, frankly, undermining our efforts to comply with the guidance you have given us, and the guidance you have provided is criminally vague. President trump was not there today to grab the microphone and deflect the toughest question that the head of the cdc had to face about news reports that the cdcs guidance on how to safely reopen certain activities has been suppressed by the Trump Administration. So reporting suggests, dr. Redfield, this guidance that was developed by you and other experts was shelved by the administration, that it was withheld from states and the public because of a decision made by the white house. So my specific question is, why didnt this plan get released . The guidances that you talked about have gone through the review, comments have come back to cdc, and i anticipate theyll go back up into the task force for final review. But were reopening in connecticut in five days, in ten days. I mean, this guidance isnt going to be useful to us in two weeks. Is it this week, next week, when are we going to get this expertise from the federal government . The other thing i will just say is that the cdc stands by the Technical Assistance to your state and any state upon any request. I do anticipate this guidance to be posted on the cdc website soon. Soon . Soon. I cant tell you when, but your state can reach out to cdc and well give guidance to anyone on your state on any circumstance that your state desires guidance from. Soon isnt terribly helpful. Thank you, mr. Chairman. The only hint of trumpism on republican side of the committee today came from rand paul who tried to suggest it is a scientifically proven fact that if you survive a coronavirus infection, you are absolutely immune to coronavirus. Dr. Fauci had to point out the scientific difference between a likelihood and a proven fact. The history of other viruses, said dr. Fauci, suggests that immunity possibly temporary, is likely. Not definite, likely. Rand paul was leaning on the immunity issue very heavily, because he believes its the Silver Lining. Those are his words, the Silver Lining. Rand paul thinks that the good news about the 14,000 infected workers at meat packing plants around the country, 14,000 infected workers, 57 dead, rand paul believes theres a Silver Lining. He sees a Silver Lining in that. The Silver Lining to so many infections in the Meat Processing industry is that a large portion of these workers now have immunity. Those workers should be reassured that they likely wont get it again instead of being alarmed by media reports that there is no evidence of immunity. Those were carefully chosen words, written, written no doubt by his staff. The Silver Lining. Would you be reassured, would you say, oh, great, lets go back to work in that meat packing plant that almost killed me, with the worst sickness ive ever had in my life and did kill my friend who was working beside me, because we likely wont get it again . Rand paul and his staff wrote the words the Silver Lining to so many infections. They wrote those words. They premeditated those words. As of tonight, the United States now has 1,381,092 reported cases of coronavirus and the United States has suffered 83,421 confirmed deaths from coronavirus. And at todays hearing, dr. Fauci said those numbers understate the truth of the virus spread in america because many people have died in new york and elsewhere with coronavirus symptoms but were never tested for coronavirus before or after death. And when senator Bernie Sanders suggested that we could have 50 more coronavirus cases than we know about, than have been reported, dr. Fauci did not disagree. Dr. Fauci, and no one else on the committee, saw a Silver Lining in that possibility of 50 more cases than have actually been reported. The one republican senator who did find donald trump guilty in his impeachment trial in the senate and voted to remove the president from office got dr. Fauci to shoot down a trump lie about president obama after beginning with his disappointment with admiral giroirs participation yesterday in the trump rally in the rose garden about what a great job america has done on testing. Admiral, im going to take off where senator hassen spoke. I understand that politicians are going to frame data in a way thats most positive politically. Of course, they dont expect that from admirals, but yesterday you celebrated we had done more tests per capita than even south korea but ignored the fact that they accomplished theirs at the beginning of their outbreak, while we treaded water during february and march. And as a result, by march 6th, the u. S. Had completed just 2,000 tests, whereas south korea had conducted more than 140,000 tests. So partially as a result of that, they have 256 deaths, and we have almost 80,000 deaths. I find our testing record nothing to celebrate whatsoever. The fact is, their test numbers are going down, down, down now because they dont have the kind of outbreak we have. Ours is going up, up, up. As they have to. I think thats an important lesson for us as we think about the future. The president said the other day president obama is responsible for a lack of a vaccine. Dr. Fauci, is president obama or by extension President Trump, did they do something that made the likelihood of creating a vaccine less likely . Are either President Trump or president obama responsible for the fact that we dont have a vaccine now or in delaying it in some way . No, no, senator, not at all. Certainly president obama nor President Trump are responsible for not having a vaccine. Leading off our discussion tonight is democratic senator chris murphy of connecticut. Hes a member of the Senate Health, education, labor and pensions committee. Senator, thank you very much for joining us tonight. I just want to begin with that phrase you chose, criminally vague to describe the guidance that you and we and the country has been getting from the president s Coronavirus Task force. Thanks for having me, lawrence. Listen, we have a lot of smart people in connecticut, but the cdc exists for moments like this. The cdc exists so we can pull pool its export resources and provide a state like connecticut specific guidance on how we reopen our state safely. And they have not done that. Now, the reason they have done that isnt because they didnt come up with the document that tells states how to open Day Care Centers and when to open schools, and when to close a school when tests suggest theres a hot spot. No, in fact, they developed that guidance. Its the white house that is refusing to allow that guidance, that document to be sent to states. And why is that . Well, its because President Trump just wants to play armchair quarterback. He doesnt want to be in a position where he would have to take responsibility for decisions made about when schools open or close. So the document that we have, the plan to reopen america, is criminally vague. It doesnt have any specifics about how you open in this kind of setting or when you close a certain set of businesses when there reemerges infections in a city or county. So i just dont understand why we arent getting more help from the cdc now. And i guess i do understand it, its because of this directive from the white house. And when you say criminally vague, i assume its because that vagueness can lead to thousands of deaths . Of course. Again, we have smart people in connecticut, but we dont have the expertise in our state, or do 49 other states have the expertise to make these very difficult and subtle choices about how you open a day care center, and exactly what protocols you need to have in place to keep those kids and those parents safe. That expertise resides at the cdc. And the fact that this administration is not allowing the cdc to provide us with that guidance because President Trump just doesnt want to have his hands on the response so that he can blame everybody else, that is not just criminally vague, that is criminally negligent, because ultimately its going to result in potentially thousands of my constituents dying, because if we didnt have the benefit of that expert advice from the federal government. When these witnesses who testified to your committee today appear with the president at one of those rose garden events, they never speak unless invited by the president to speak. And so one of the things i found striking about senator romneys exchange about president obama was donald trump can stand up at those events and blame president obama for the administration not being ready for the coronavirus pandemic and blame president obama for not having a vaccine, and none of those experts ever, ever get up and say, excuse me, i have to correct what the president just said. They will only speak when invited by the president. So what we saw today was what theyre capable of saying once theyre free of donald trump. Yeah. I think you saw a hint of that, but they were free to of their own volition to rebut any of the insane things that the president has said. And they didnt necessarily take that opportunity today. Listen, from the very beginning, i think we have always been vexed about this question as to what advice we give smart people who are working in the Trump Administration. It is hard to watch some of these Public Servants stand behind this president as he lies through his teeth and then have them refuse to correct the record. At the same time, im pretty sure i want dr. Fauci in the room, even if there are few times when the president is listening to his advice instead of some flunky or lackey. So i think we treated these witnesses respectfully today because we understand the position were in. Were glad theyre doing these jobs. But they do, i think, bear responsibility, probably more often than they do, to stand up to this president and correct his mistruths. Lets listen how carefully dr. Fauci voiced his concerns about premature reopenings. Lets listen to this. Ive expressed then and again is my concern that some areas, cities, states, what have you, jump over those various check points and prematurely open up without having the capability of being able to respond effectively and efficiently, my concern is that we will start to see little spikes that might turn into outbreaks. Senator, several states have jumped over those thresholds that dr. Fauci recommends they not jump over. And thats the most he can say about it while hes working for donald trump, i guess. Well, lets be clear. No state is in compliance with the plan to reopen america. Because the plan to reopen america presupposes that every state has adopted a system of robust testing, tracing of contacts, and quarantine. No state has done that. You know why . Because the federal government has refused to design, implement, and pay for that system. And every single state does including mine, doesnt have the resources to do that. So i appreciate his warnings. But the people that hes talking to need to step up quickly and give us the resources to be in compliance with that plan that hes worried about us violating. Senator chris murphy, thank you very much for joining us tonight. We really appreciate it. Thanks. Thank you. A quick programming reminder. Thursday night at 10 00 p. M. , we will present a the last word special, joe biden with Stacey Abrams, president ial candidate joe biden will be with us for the entire hour and the second half of our discussion well be joined by Stacey Abrams, who has been working to assure fair voting practices in the 2020 election, which has become much more of a challenge in the year of the coronavirus pandemic. It will be joe biden and Stacey Abrams first interview together. You viewers will have a chance to participate. Go to msnbc. Com townhall to submit a question for joe biden and Stacey Abrams thursday night, 10 00 p. M. , right here on msnbc. Up next, two members of the last word Coronavirus Task foshs, dr. Ashish jha and Pulitzer Prize winning Laurie Garrett will give us their reactions to what they heard in that Senate Hearing today. And what it means for the reopening of workplaces and schools around the country. Thats next. announcer reliability is everything. So, if your networks down, youre down. Verizon knows your customers need to reach you seamlessly. Your team needs to work from different places across many devices. Plus, you want the security trusted by some of the Largest Companies in the world. And thats why you trust us. The most Reliable Network in america. And ask your doctor about biktarvy. Biktarvy is a complete, onepill, onceaday treatment used for hiv in certain adults. Its not a cure, but with one small pill, biktarvy fights hiv to help you get to and stay undetectable. Thats when the amount of virus is so low it cannot be measured by a lab test. 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Across america, Business Owners are figuring things out. Finding new ways to serve customers. Connect employees. And work with partners. Comcast business is right there with you. With a network that helps give you speed, reliability and security. And enough bandwidth to handle all your connected devices. Voice Solutions Like remote Call Forwarding and readable voicemail. And safe, convenient installation. When every connection counts, you can count on us. Get the connectivity your business needs. Call today. Comcast business. In todays Senate Hearing, republican senator mitt romney gave dr. Fauci a multiple choice question, with three possible answers. A, extremely likely. B, more likely than not. Or c, kind of a long shot. Is it extremely likely were going to get a vaccine within a year or two . Is it just more likely than not . Or kind of a long shot . Its definitely not a long shot, senator romney. I would think that it is more likely than not that we will. Because this is a virus that induces an immune response that people recover, the overwhelming majority of people recover from this virus. Although there is good morbidity and mortality at a level in certain populations, the very fact that the body is capable of spontaneously clearing the virus tells me that at least from a conceptual standpoint, we can stimulate the body with a vaccine that would induce a similar response. This virus. So although theres no guarantee, i think its clearly much more likely than not that somewhere within that time frame, we will get a vaccine for this virus. Time to hear from our experts. Joining us is the director of the Harvard Global health institute, who is testifying tomorrow in the first hearing by the select committee on the coronavirus in the house of representatives. Also joining us, journalist Laurie Garrett, now an nbc news and msnbc science contributor. Doctor, what about that multiple choice test of or lets all remember that President Trump says were going to get a vaccine this year. Mitt romney was asking within a year or two, and dr. Anthony fauci says more likely than not. Yeah. So i tend to trust dr. Fauci on this. And actually my own reading of the evidence is very similar to dr. Fauci. Its not guaranteed. Were not going to get it in 2020. I think thats extremely unlikely. But in 2021, i think there is a good chance for all the reasons he outlined. But there is a little bit of an unknown here, because this is not a virus weve ever developed a vaccine to. So i think we have to be humble about our certainty on this. Laurie garrett, youve pointed out that there are challenges beyond simply the discovery of a virus that works. A vaccine that works. A vaccine that works, yes. We know that we have a virus unfortunately that works. Yeah. But yeah, discovery of a vaccine is only step one. Figuring out how to do all the International Negotiations necessary to get multicountry buyin, deal with patent issues and get a price point thats reasonable, distribution for the whole world, 7. 5 billion human beings vaccinated, thats a whole order of magnitude more difficult than anything weve ever attempted in Human History on this scale. I would back up and say that i you know, tony fauci is being, i think, optimistic to even say we would have a vaccine within this twoyear window, except to perhaps if youre defining a vaccine as a theoretical event, tried in phase one, phase two, maybe even phase three trials. But not necessarily in commercial production. One reason im worried is the vaccines everybody is rushing full bore on are in the categories of mrna vaccines and dna vaccines. These are really hard to figure out how to do all the fda approval on. We dont have such vaccines in widespread use for any other disease. We have a lot of hurdles to climb. And theres one last thing i would add, we have this strange situation going on in wuhan where they are trying right now to conduct nucleic acid tests on 11 Million People in ten days, because of seven people that have turned up testing positive for covid. The index case in this tiny cluster got sick on march 17th, and walked out of bed feeling well on march 27th. And somehow, carried this virus in his body undetected all this time. It resurged and he infected his neighbors. Wow. And that 11 million that they intend to test in wuhan in less than two weeks, is more than the number of americans who have been tested. Were up to or in the middle of the 9 million range right now. Lets listen to what dr. Fauci said about opening up schools in response to chairman alexanders question. The idea of having treatments available or a vaccine to facilitate the reentry of students into the fall term would be something that would be a bit of a bridge too far. Going back to school would be more in the realm of knowing the landscape of infection with regard to testing. Dr. Jha, there you are at a school at harvard university. How did you interpret dr. Faucis answer . So what dr. Fauci was saying was two things. First of all, were not going to have the kind of treatment or vaccines that will make people feel comfortable sending kids back to school this fall. So is there a way we can get kids back . We can. Assuming there arent large outbreaks happening. But youre going to need really extensive Testing Available at that time. And nothing i heard in the hearing today gave me confidence that were going to have that. The admiral talked about 30 million to 40 million tests per month. That is about a million or a million and a half tests a day thats better than where we are right now. But not the level we would need if we were going to send kids back to school or college. Everybody back to work. Especially in the fall where well see a resurgence of covid in the context of a flu season. Were going to need a lot more tests. Senator rand paul apparently was upset that dr. Fauci said anything other than sure, everyone should go back to school in the fall, and he confronted dr. Fauci about it and challenging his authority on it. Lets listen to that. I think we ought to have a little bit of humility in our belief that we know whats best for the economy, and as much as i respect you, dr. Fauci, i dont think youre the end all. Ive never made myself out to be the end all. Or only voice in this. You used the word we should be humble about what we dont know. Right now, children presenting with covid16 or covid19 who actually have a very strange inflammatory syndrome, very similar to kawasaki syndrome. I think we better be careful that were not cavalier in thinking that children are completely immune to the deleterious effects. Laurie garrett, the going back to school question has become so much more complicated with these recent developments that weve seen in new york city and elsewhere of children suffering very badly. Yeah. I mean, here in new york city, we have more than 100 cases of this kawasaki syndrome or whatever exactly it is. This terrible inflammation syndrome in children. And we had, i believe, five, who have succumbed to it. Yes, these pictures are really striking. Kawasaki syndrome was not a wellknown syndrome until we had a toxic shock syndrome outbreak in the United States back in the late 1980s. And that sparked a lot of interest in more research. But we still have a lot of mysteries just about socalled normal kawasaki syndrome. Now we add to it this mysterious virus that is capable of doing so much damage to the cardiovascular system, not to mention the immune response. I think were in dangerous territory if we cavalierly open schools without understanding what this syndrome is. Thank you both for starting us off tonight. This discussion of that hearing. Really appreciate it. And when we come back, it was an historic day in the Supreme Court, because no one was actually in the Supreme Court when the Supreme Court heard arguments in two cases involving Donald Trumps tax returns. Neal katyal, who has argued many cases, was listening to every word. He will join us with his assessment of who is likely to win the legal battles over Donald Trumps tax returns. Trus we turn to the most certain thing there is. Science. Science can overcome diseases. Create cures. And yes, beat pandemics. It has before. It will again. Because when its faced with a new opponent, it doesnt back down it revs up. Asking questions til it finds what its looking for. Thats the power of science. So were taking our science and unleashing it. Our research, experts and resources. All in an effort to advance potential therapies and vaccines. 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Truly thank you for helping me prepare for whatever the future has in store. That family doesnt have to take out of their house. It relieves stress off of me to let me know im doing something good for the community, not just papa johns. Im doing something good for the community, puberty means personal space. So sports clothes sit around growing odors. Thats why we graduated to tide pods sport. Finally something more powerful than the funk. Tide sport removes even weekold sweat odor. Its got to be tide. This virus is testing all of us. And its testing the people on the front lines of this fight most of all. So abbott is getting new tests into their hands, delivering the critical results they need. And until this fight is over, we. Will. Never. Quit. Because they never quit. Today, the Supreme Court heard arguments Via Teleconference in two cases about enforcing subpoenas for Donald Trumps personal and business tax returns. The first case involves a subpoena from congress to the company that prepares Donald Trumps tax returns demanding copies of those tax returns and other related documents. This case is not to be confused with the subpoena for Donald Trumps tax returns issued by the chairman of the house, weighs and means committee, which by law has the authority to submit any tax return directly to the chairman of that committee that the chairman might request. That case is proceeding on a separate legal track. The president s lawyers argued the congressional subpoena before the court was simply political harassment, with no legitimate legislative purpose. But justices sotomayor and kagan seemed to suggest that the Judicial Branch should not try to define what is a legitimate legislative purpose for the legislative branch of the federal government. I see a tremendous separation of powers problem when youre talking about placing a heightened standard on an investigation that a committee is embarking upon. What it seems to me youre asking us to do is put a kind of ten ton weight on the scales between the president and congress. And essentially to make it impossible for congress to perform oversight and carry out its functions where the president is concerned. In the second case that the court heard today, Donald Trumps lawyers were appealing two consecutive rulings by the Federal District court in new york and the federal Circuit Court of appeals in new york, ordering the Accounting Firm to hand over President Trumps personal and business tax returns to the Manhattan District Attorney in a criminal investigation. The Circuit Court of appeals opinion, written by the chief judge Robert Katzman is so legally airtight, according to most constitutional experts, it left Donald Trumps lawyer, in this case jay sekulow, trying to invent a president ial immunity from subpoenas by any District Attorney for any reason. Jay sekulow agreed that the District Attorneys and their grand juries could investigate a president s conduct. But he insisted that it would be unconstitutional for them to use their subpoena power against a president. Chief Justice John Roberts had this reaction to that argument. In other words, its okay for t grand jury to investigate except it cant use the traditional device it typically uses, the subpoena. It cant use a subpoena targeting the president , under his article ii would be unconstitutional. I dont understand your theory in terms of distraction and all that would seem to go much farther than resisting the subpoena. Former acting solicitor general neal katyal, who has much personal experience gauging which way the justices are leaning during many Supreme Court cases that he has argued, will join us from right there from his home library next right after this break. Chances are you know us. Yoohoo, progressive shoppers. We laughed with you. Sprinkles are for winners. We surprised you. On occasion, weve probably even annoyed you. Weve done this all with one thing in mind. To help protect the things you love. And if we cant offer you the best price well help you find a better one. Its not always the lowest even if its not with us. Thats how weve done it for the past 80 years. Not just today, or this month, but always. Its starting to people are surprising themselves the moment they realize they can du more with less asthma. Thanks to dupixent, the addon treatment for specific types of moderatetosevere asthma. Dupixent isnt for sudden breathing problems. 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In no place do you make a case why these particular subpoenas place a particular burden on the president such that he would be prevented from carrying out his president ial responsibilities. Thats what i took clinton v. Jones to be saying, is thats the kind of thing a president has to come to show. Are you making that argument at all . Joining us now, a lawyer who has been there, neal katyal, former acting u. S. Solicitor general, who has argued dozens of cases before the United States Supreme Court. Hes also an msnbc legal contributor. So neal, heres my short hand reaction listening to every word. I have a feeling that the Supreme Court just might protect the tax returns from the congressional subpoena. But it sounded like the Manhattan District Attorney is going to get those tax returns. So first of all, lawrence, i think your viewers, i hope they did listen to the argument as you did, and i urge everyone to do so, because it is really america at its finest. You know, nine justices who are throwing really hard questions, at both sides, and trying to resolve their disputes this way and not in the streets or anything like that. Its such a contrast to President Trumps invocation of trump judges and obama judges. Because what you heard today was nine justices of the Supreme Court. And i agree with you. I think if you listen to the arguments, you see even though five of the justices have been appointed by republican president s, i think you saw widespread skepticism on the court about trumps legal position. Particularly with the case coming from new york about the District Attorney. Also with the congress one, i think that was closer. But i think in both cases, you had one fundamental overarching principle that the court cared about, which is no one is above the law. And trumps argument is essentially, i dont have to bother complying with congressional subpoenas. I dont have to comply with prosecutor subpoenas, even though, lawrence, you and i and every other citizen in this country would have to comply with those subpoenas. And particularly for a president who says hes a textualist president , who wants to follow the constitution as written, this is wholly made up out of cloth and thats what you heard the Court Getting at. In the excerpts youve been playing. How important is it that these subpoenas were not actually directed at donald trump but at the Accounting Firm in both cases . Yeah, its really significant. Because the court has twice in recent years, in our lifetime, had similar cases. One was the paula jones case, and the other was the nixon tapes case. The nixon tapes case, they were subpoenas directed right at the president. Even then, the Supreme Court unanimously said that those subpoenas had to be enforced. That was true even though three of the justices on that court were appointed by Richard Nixon himself. In the paula jones case, two justices appointed by bill clinton, yet the court unanimously, including those two justices, said the president could be subject to a civil suit. Here were not even talking anything about suing the president or trying to get his official records from the oval office. As the lawyer for the house and the District Attorney, both said this is about stuff in his accounting files. He doesnt even have to bother being involved. And its stuff from well before he was president. This is about payments to Stormy Daniels and other things that the president s own lawyer, michael cohen, said there was financial improprieties and potential crimes stemming from. I think we both agree that the stronger case is the one from manhattan, at least in the way the arguments played out today. But on the congressional subpoena, the position that we dont want to invade the thinking of the house of representatives and just decide here in the Supreme Court that the house of representatives is just conducting harassment. That would have been the conservative decision on the Supreme Court, that we should not sit here and invade the house of representatives is just conducting harassment, that invade the thinking of the house of representatives. Its in the just the conservative position, lawrence. It is the position of President Trump himself for two years in other cases. For example, when i argued the case in the Supreme Court two years ago, i argued the president had illegitimate motivations based on what he said. He said, i think islam hates us and things like that. And what the Trump Administration said is youre not allowed to secondguess the president s motivations. Here they turn around and say you can secondguess not just one persons motivations but the entire United States house of representatives and their committees. That is just made up, bogus, and you know, i suspect the skepticism on the court will see hopefully some opinions that reveal that. Neal katyal, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Really appreciate it. Thank you. And when we come back, a freshman democrat who flipped a house seat from republican to democrat has a plan for how to build a National Strategy and a National Workforce for Contact Tracing in the coronavirus pandemic. This is exactly what president Franklin Delano roosevelt would do. This is exactly the kind of thing that he did during the great depression. Thats next. And ask your doctor about biktarvy. Biktarvy is a complete, onepill, onceaday treatment used for hiv in certain adults. Its not a cure, but with one small pill, biktarvy fights hiv to help you get to and stay undetectable. 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When pain happens, aleve it. All day strong. Sprinting past every leak in our softest, smoothest fabric. Shes confident, protected, her strength respected. Depend. The only thing stronger than us, is you. [ siren ] doug shes confident, protected, her strength respected. Give me your hand i can save you. Lots of money with Liberty Mutual we customize your Car Insurance so you only pay for what you need only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Our Retirement Plan with voya gives us confidence. We can spend a bit now, knowing were prepared for the future. Surprise we renovated the guest room, so you can live with us. Im good at my condo. Well planned, well invested, well protected. Voya. Be confident to and through retirement. The United States still has not engaged in a national Contact Tracing program, isnt that right . When the outbreak started, sir, we had an aggressive Contact Tracing program, but unfortunately as cases rose, it went beyond the capacity, and we went to mitigation. So we lost the containment edge. Johns hopkins estimates that nationally at least 100,000 contact tracers are needed in the United States to track the coronavirus spread, and we know that more than 30 million americans desperately need jobs now, so why not have the federal government hire a couple hundred thousand of them . Jonathan alter points out in his daily beast article that at the height of the depression, 1933, president roosevelt hired 275,000 people in four months for the newly created civilian conservation corps, which was the fastest mobilization in american history. Today a Bipartisan Group of lawmakers are doing what president roosevelt would be doing now, and they have introduced legislation that would create the National Public health corps to hire the contact tracers this country needs to save lives. Joining us now is democratic congresswoman chrissy houlahan. She represents pennsylvanias sixth congressional district, and she is an air force veteran. Congresswoman houlahan, how would this program work . How fast could you get it going . Thank you very much for having me, and this program would take a page out of the americorps model that already is up and going. We already have the systems in place to do this. Effectively what it would do is it would take some of those folks that are frankly already sidelined from americorps, peace corps, other Service Organizations like that, and it would redeploy and reskill and retrain them and augment them as well. Those folks would be the boots on the ground that would do the tracking and tracing and testing and hopefully the treating in terms of inoculation and vaccination alongside of the already existing Community Support networks and the already existing professional Health Care Providers as well. We just need a lot of people, as you mentioned, to be able to run a national or nationwide testing strategy. We need the tests, but we also need the workforce. Lets listen to what senator Elizabeth Warren said today in that Senate Hearing about what is at stake in Contact Tracing. There are many things the states can do by themselves, and god bless them, theyre out there trying to do every day, to open more emergency hospitals and to do all kinds of work to try to keep their citizens safe. But Contact Tracing, we move. We move from place to place and state to state. This is something that Needs National leadership. Dr. Anthony fauci said in response to that, that we would of course have more infections and more deaths without adequate Contact Tracing. So this is a matter of life and death, and youve got a Bipartisan Group supporting this bill, dont you . We do, and you mentioned that im a veteran. I also happen to be an americorps person as well. This Bipartisan Group in support of this happen to have heritages and backgrounds in service as well, and we have a really eclectic group of people who really genuinely believe that we do need a National Testing strategy. We do need a unified National Testing strategy, and that is a really good way to ramp up the number of people we have to be able to do that as quickly as possible. Is there something about military experience that gives you the notion that we can start from zero and build something very quickly . Absolutely. Its a combination not only of my military experience but also, as i mentioned, of my Service Background in the americorps organization as well. We know what is possible. We know that we can do it together. We know that americans are genuinely generous people and theyre looking for ways that they can be helpful right now. And theyre also frankly, as you mentioned, looking for skills and job training that will allow them to be able to join this new economy. We dont really know what the new economy is going to look like, but we certainly know that were not going to be able to open our economy safely without Something Like National Testing and tracing and tracking. And so this is absolutely within the realm of the possible. We are a nation of openhearted people, and National Service is something that were all very much called to. Youve seen that in whats happened in our nation over the last five or six weeks, our real answer to the call to serve and to help. Congresswoman chrissy houlahan, thank you very much for joining us tonight with this very important idea. Really appreciate it. Thank you. I very much appreciate it as well. Thank you. That is tonights last word. Williams starts now. Well, good evening once again. Day 1,209 of the Trump Administration. 175 days to go now until our next president ial election. And tonight once again the news is in the form of a projection, and its grim. Tonight a leading model often cited by the white house is out with a startling new projection for coronavirus deaths. The institute for Health Metrics and evaluation now predicts a death toll of 147,000 by the first week of august. Thats up 10,000 from the last round of projections just two days ago