Transcripts For MSNBCW The Last Word With Lawrence ODonnell 20191105

Yeah. And theyll have to make a decision. Individual officials have to make a decision here how theyre going to deal with the white house inevitably telling them dont show up now that there is all of these examples of officials who did show up and said what they knew. Ambassador mckinley in that transcript released today makes it so clear his own reaction. Thats something im going to cite when i get into my coverage of it. As soon as he got the request he said of course, of course i was going to testify. Right away. Didnt have to think about it. The only question now is the divide between sort of people who have that patriotic response to it, yes, like congressional oversight is a real thing. I will tell you what i know. You can swear me in under oath and i will tell the truth. The divide between them and those saying the white house told me not to. That will get litigated or otherwise worked out. But those people are going to have to live with that for the rest of their lives. And it is moving fast. Thank you, rachel. Constitutional lawrence tribe will be joining us tonight. He has cowritten a book on impeachment and has much to say about the building impeachment case against donald trump and well get professor tribes reaction to a very important federal court ruling today, ruling with surprising speed and ruling unanimously against President Trump on the release of his tax returns. The president s lawyers have said they will take the case to the United States Supreme Court. The court where Laurence Tribe has argued more cases than any of us except possibly professor tribe can remember. And at the end of this hour, former federal prosecutor Chuck Rosenberg will join us with his reaction to a big turning of the tables in the impeachment inquiry today when one of Rudy Giulianis partners in crime, i mean literally crime, one who has actually been accused of committing federal crimes by prosecutors has decided to cooperate with the impeachment inquiry. A new lawyer representing lev parnas says he will agree to testify to the impeachment inquiry and turn over any documents subpoenaed by congress involving his dealings with Rudy Giuliani and donald trump and ukraine. Lev parnas is reportedly very upset that donald trump has claimed that he does not know him, even though lev and his partner igor, igor fruman have photographic evidence that they have met donald trump. We begin tonight with the first public release of deposition transcripts in the impeachment inquiry, the most important thing in the transcripts of the depositions. Most important thing in these depositions in the impeachment inquiry that were released today is that there is no defense of donald trump in those transcripts, not one word of defense. The republican members of the investigating committees who love to play tough guy in the hallway in front of the microphones were timid little sheep in those depositions. Tough guy jim jordan was in the room. Trump worshiper mark meadows was in the room, and they couldnt come up with a single word to put in those transcripts released today that was helpful to donald trump. Donald trump might not have brought mark meadows to a World Series Game and to the ultimate fighting spectacle in Madison Square garden this weekend if donald trump knew that mark meadows did and said absolutely nothing for him in those depositions, nothing. Jim jordan and mark meadows are completely different people with the door closed and no cameras allowed. The real evidence in this case is the same, whether the testimony is public or private, but what we discover in private testimony is that there is absolutely no defense of donald trump being offered by republicans or by the Republican Committee staff council, who is allowed to ask as many questions as they wanted to in the two depositions released today. And those questions accomplished nothing, they accomplished nothing in their many questions. That is why republicans did not issue their own set of highlights today from the depositions, no republican highlights whatsoever. The democrats released highlights of what they considered the highlights of the depositions. The democrats issued nine pages of highlights of the testimony of former ambassador to ukraine marie yovanovitch. And five pages of highlights from ambassador michael mckinley, a former Senior Adviser to secretary of state mike pompeo. Jim jordan had about a twominute interlude with ambassador mckinley in which jim jordan asked absolutely nothing relevant to the investigation, softball stuff that meant nothing. But when jim jordan made a reference to ambassador mckinleys lawyer sitting there with him in the deposition, ambassador mckinley said i had to be talked into approaching a lawyer. I didnt want to deal with legal. My approach to coming to this was i saw the request, i answered it before i even talked to any Legal Counsel. And my approach was why should i need Legal Counsel to come here and talk about this, but thats not the way washington works apparently. That is certainly not the way washington works for the four Trump Administration officials who defied impeachment today and refused to show up for their depositions. The most important of those is the man who everyone rushed to complain to after Donald Trumps phone call with the president of ukraine, johnizen berg, now hiding behind the trump directive that ambassador mckinley and ambassador yovanovitch ignored. The directive to not testify to the impeachment inquiry. The testimony of the ambassadors proves that there is no legal basis whatsoever for the Trump Administration blocking any of this testimony. Mike mckinley testified under oath that he agreed to the committees request without even checking with a lawyer. Why should i need Legal Counsel to come here and talk about this . Thats what he said. That window on Mike Mckinleys integrity and oldfashioned washington respect for congress and congressional subpoenas stands as the model by which history will judge how witnesses carried out their duty to the constitution, to the truth, in the impeachment inquiry of donald trump. Here is what chairman adam schiff said today about the witnesses who refused to testify today. This will only further add to the body of evidence on a potential obstruction of congress charge against the president. And so the choice for Trump Administration witnesses subpoenaed by the impeachment inquiry is to defy the subpoena and add to the evidence of obstruction of congress, which is an impeachable offense, or testify and add to the evidence which already has proved that donald trump solicited ukraines help in his Reelection Campaign when he asked the president of ukraine to investigate joe biden. There is no third option available to Trump Administration witnesses. Theoretically, the third option could be testify to the impeachment inquiry and provide evidence helpful to Donald Trumps defense, but the reality is there is no such evidence to present. Thats why they wont testify. And there isnt even a defense theory to present. Thats what we discovered in the transcripts. The cowardly lions jim jordan and mark meadows prove that in their very weak entries in the deposition transcript released today that there is absolutely no defense of donald trump. Ambassador yovanovitch tells the dramatic story in her testimony about being called in the middle of the night by a state Department Official telling her to leave her post in ukraine and come back to washington on the next plane. The person calling her had no idea why she had to come back. She said she felt threatened when Donald Trumps phone call with the president of ukraine became public and he said in that phone call, quote, shes going to go through some things. She still feels threatened, she testified. She told the impeachment inquiry that she got trump management advice from Gordon Sondland, the completely inexperienced ambassador to the European Union who bought his ambassadorship with a Million Dollar contribution to the Trump Inauguration and who knows what else. With members of the Ukrainian Government telling her she needed to, quote, watch her back because of what Rudy Giuliani was up to in ukraine, Gordon Sondland gave her advice about how to handle the president of the United States. Ambassador yovanovitch testified, quote, he said, you know, you need to go big or go home. You need to, you know, tweet out there that you support the president and that all these are lies and everything else, and, you know, so i mean, obviously that was advice. It was advice that i did not see how i could implement in my role as an ambassador and as a Foreign Service officer. Some of Donald Trumps ridiculously inexperienced rich ambassadors who have purchased their ambassadorships have publicly tweeted their devotion to donald trump, but not a career Foreign Service officer. How strange would it be for an ambassador to be tweeting public worship over donald trump . Ambassador Mike Mckinley testified, i spent 37 years being a diplomat, being a diplomat for the United States means supporting millions of americans overseas. It means supporting our companies to create jobs at home. It means resolving conflicts that impact the United States. It means keeping the homeland safe. It means working with our military, the agency, all of our civilian agencies on protecting our interests and influence overseas. It means projecting american values. In this context, frankly, to see the emerging information on the engagement of our missions to procure negative political information for domestic purposes combined with the failure i saw in the building to provide support for our professional cadre in a particularly trying time, i think the combination was a pretty good reason to decide enough, that i had no longer had a useful role to play. Mike mckinley testified he spoke to secretary of state mike pompeo three times about issuing a statement of support for ambassador yovanovitch. Here is what mike pompeo said about that two weeks ago. You know, from the time that ambassador yovanovitch departed ukraine until the time that he came to tell me that he was departing, i never heard him say a single thing about his concerns with respect to the decisions made. So you were asked not once, not once, george, did ambassador mckinley Say Something to me during that entire time period. No, mike, not once. Three times. Leading off our discussion tonight, are ambassador wendy sherman, undersecretary of state for Political Affairs in the Obama Administration. She is an msnbc Global Affairs contributor. Mieke eoyang is with us, and evelyn farkas, deputy secretary of state in the Obama Administration and a former staff member of the House Foreign Affairs committee. She also served on the staff of the Senate Armed Services committee for seven years. She is an Msnbc National Security analyst. And ambassador sherman, let me start with you. What is your reaction to what were discovering in these transcripts today . I must say, lawrence, flipping through the 500 pages and reading the summaries that youre referring to, i could just feel my blood boiling, getting angrier and angrier. The president talks about the time about the deep state, but these are the deepest of patriots, Masha Yovanovitch and Mike Mckinley, phil reeker. These folks are coming forward, Lieutenant Colonel vindman. They are trying to uphold the oath they can they took to the constitution, and here we have people who are undermining them right and left, and who is at the bottom of all of that . The president of the United States. Masha yovanovitch didnt know why carol perez, the director general was asking her to come home, and neither did carol perez. And again and again, when she asked whether there might be some support when Mike Mckinley asked secretary pompeo for support, basically the message that came forward was this would only make things worse, that the president of the United States might tweet something out that would undermine that support and put masha more at risk. This is not what we should be doing. We should be defending diplomats, not undermining them. Mieke eoyang, youve been in that room with the door closed when there are no cameras, and some of the people who are performers for the cameras are very different people with the door closed. But these transcripts are really stunning when it comes to players like jim jordan and mark meadows. They dont attempt anything in these depositions. None of those moves that they play for the cameras, and most importantly, no defense of donald trump. There isnt a defense of donald trump. There isnt anything helpful for donald trump anywhere in these transcripts offered by any of the republicans in the room, including the republican staff. Thats right. And you dont see them tipping their hand to any kind of defense strategy. It really shows the advantage that democrats have had in holding these hearings behind closed doors. My experience in closeddoor hearings is actually members do a much better job of trying to get to the truth because theyre not playing for the audience beyond the cameras. And so they are actually much more thoughtful here. But if jordan and meadows thought there was any defense that they could make, they would be trying to elicit that from these witnesses. And one of the things that really struck me about this transcript is when ambassador mckinley says in his 37 years in the Foreign Service, hes never seen anything like this. So far all of those defenders of the president who keep trying to argue that all president s do this, and what he has done is no different than anyone else, actually, the people who have done this for their entire careers say that is not true. This is very different. No president has ever tried to dig up dirt on a political opponent and tried to use the u. S. Government to be able to do so. Evelyn, there is a picture that emerges in ambassador yovanovitchs testimony about what she was going through, but its also a picture of what ukraine was going through. Ukraine is communicating with her and officials telling her you got to watch your back because giuliani is here, and hes got these guys with him, and theyre talking about you. And ukraine obviously was stuck in a position that must have been extremely and continues to be extremely difficult for them to navigate while theyre trying to fight off the russians. Right. I mean, heres the thing. Going back to the testimony of ambassador taylor, remember, lawrence, ukraine is treated as a subject and an object. When its the subject of american attempts to manipulate it and to get it to help with political malfeasance in this case, its really difficult for ukraine, because they rely on american support, which means Political Support and the professionals of course are doing the bidding of the politicals. And the ukrainians understand whats happening. Theyre not blind to this, and it must have been somewhat embarrassing actually for ambassador yovanovitch. I want to make a point here also just to kind of emphasize what my colleagues just said, the ambassador chairman and mieke eoyang. These are Foreign Service officers. Theyre Like Military Service officers, right . They dont have political badges. Theyre supposed to, you know, just carry out the policy of the United States irrespective of who the president is. And i think this point seems to have been lost on President Trump, Gordon Sondland and others, but secretary pompeo, it should not be lost on him. That man is a military former military officer. He should know better. He is a member of congress and that really bothers me, that he let these people get yanked into this really horrible situation where they were getting involved in nefarious acts and then of course in the case of ambassador yovanovitch, she paid the price in terms of her career. Well, if we believe Mike Mckinleys testimony that he talked to pompeo about this three times, then what we saw mike pompeo do on television is lie in a classic trump style public lying about saying no, no, no, no such conversation ever occurred. And wendy sherman, i cant think of the last time a secretary of state has been publicly in a position like that. I think its really quite extraordinary and quite frankly so more than disrespectful to all of these patriots and all of these public servants. It really does look like secretary pompeo is more interested in being in kansas and considering a senate race in kansas than he is the National Security of the United States. You know, ambassador yovanovitch in her testimony also talked about the implications of all of this around the world. Who are other leaders supposed to think makes the decisions . Is it the official policy of the United States or is it some unofficial gang that is running a number set out by the president of the United States . Whats this do to the credibility and reliability of ambassadors all over the world who are public servants, not political appointees . Do they come with credibility . Do they come with reliability . So this kind of behavior by secretary pompeo not only has undermined these great public servants, but has really put our National Security at risk all over the world. Mieke eoyang, there is a report that republicans are considering moving jim jordan on to the Intelligence Committee in time for the public hearings that the Intelligence Committee will have, presumably so he can try his bond tossing tactics on that committee. Of course that means someone has to be moved off to make the room for him. But what do you make of that strategy . Well, its very clear that with a limited number of people, theyre going to want people who are playing to the president for these open hearings in front of the press. There are a number of members on the committee who are actually very thoughtful what the National Security interest is of the United States, even on the republican side. People like congressman will hurd, who was a former cia officer, people like congressman conway who was a former auditor. There are people who are much more thoughtful and balanced on these things, and i think it is likely that they will try and move someone off to try and make room for jim jordan. The real question is whether they move off the Ranking Member devin nunes who has been by all accounts not particularly helpful for effective in these closeddoor negotiations. Evelyn, the idea that jim jordan has something to contribute to the public hearings after having absolutely nothing to contribute to the private hearings, the private depositions that are now public is just another indication that there is no defense. If a defense develops, its going to be something that happens down the road. But as of tonight, sitting here tonight, there is no defense of the president in the house of representatives so far. Right. I mean, lawrence, so far there has been a lot of noise and sound and fury, basically criticism of the process. You can expect that to continue, even though i believe the democrats addressed this in passing legislation that set down the rules of the road, which appear to be quite fair to the minority, to the republicans and to the president. But theyll probably continue to yell about process and anything else they can. But youre right. They cant defend the president. We have the transcript of the call. And the president himself keeps talking about the whistleblower. We are so beyond the whistleblower. Here are real actual people who are going to be sitting there completely uncovered to the public, corroborating everything the whistleblower said, saying in their own words. Vindman himself of course was a witness to many of this, including the calls. There is no place for them to hide, and they cant its going to be very hard for them to lie in public. So theyre just going to have to make a lot of noise. Evelyn farkas, mieke eoyang, wendy sherman, thanks for starts us off tonight. Really appreciate it. Laurence tribe will join us to discuss the impeachment investigation and this federal Appeals Court ruling today, unanimous ruling that Donald Trumps tax returns must be handed over to prosecutors in new york city. Thats coming up. We would walk on the sidewalk all around the wind blows we would only hold on to let go blow a kiss into the sun we need someone to lean on blow a kiss into the sun we needed somebody to lean on all we need is someone to lean on im off to college. Im worried about my parents retirement. Dont worry. Voya helps them to and through retirement. Dealing with todays expenses. While helping plan, invest and protect for the future. So theyll be okay . I think theyll be fine. Voya. Helping you to and through retirement. Liberty mutual customizes your Car Insurance, hmm. Exactly. So you only pay for what you need. 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This will be further evidence of an effort by the administration to obstruct the lawful and constitutional duties of congress. This will only further add to the body of evidence on a potential obstruction of congress charge against the president. I will say this. Its quite obvious and we fully expected this. We have seen a serious of shifting, ever changing rationales for this campaign of obstruction. Joining us now is Laurence Tribe, harvard law professional, constitutional law. I want to get your reaction to what chairman schiff is saying there, especially since you are the coauthor of the book, to end the presidency, the power of impeachment. Is this a possible way to go, to simply say theyre refusing to testify rather than try to push this through the courts and take months to get an order to testify. Were simply going to treat this as an on instruction of congress and possibly create an article of impeachment out of this behavior . I think chairman schiff is exactly right. Its exactly the way to go. There is no reason to drag things out in the courts. The precedent of Richard Nixon is clear, obstructing congress when it performs its solemn function of investigating a president to see whether articles of impeachment are justified is itself an impeachable offense. Otherwise the entire system would collapse. If the president could do what this president is doing, which is even more extreme than what Richard Nixon did and try to get everyone who has anything to do with the matter to just clam up, then we couldnt really get to the bottom of everything. Now happily, in this case, ambassador yovanovitch and others have agreed to testify so that the president s stonewall has to some extent collapsed. But that doesnt prevent the congress from deciding that building that wall was an obstruction of congress itself, a high crime and misdemeanor. I want to ask you about the state of the evidence actually. This is something that mark meadows said not in the depositions where he said next to nothing, but he said to reporters that even if President Trump made the request for investigation of joe biden, it appears that ukraine did not deliver that investigation, therefore there is no offense. Well, thats crazy. Its like saying that somebody who tries to rob a bank and gets halfway is not a bank robber. Its simply not the law. The law is clear that attempting to interfere with the proper functions of government and trying to shake down a foreign government, which is our ally, by preventing it from defending itself against an adversary, unless it does your bidding and helps you get reelected and digs up dirt and does various things, in your own personal favor, that that is an abuse of power. Its a betrayal of the president s oath, and its corrupt. And the fact that hes not succeeded in every way in doing it just doesnt matter. Hes clearly committed a high crime and misdemeanor, and the evidence is overwhelming and unquestioned, that thats exactly what hes done. Professor tribe, id like to squeeze in a commercial break and come back with chief judge robert katzmanns extraordinary opinion today which is going to go straight to the Supreme Court apparently in which he wrote the unanimous opinion saying yes, President Trumps tax returns must be handed over to manhattan prosecutors. Were going discuss that right after this break. 25 cent boneless wings at applebees. Get em while theyre hot. Itso chantix can help you quit slow turkey. Along with support, chantix is proven to help you quit. With chantix you can keep smoking at first and ease into quitting. Chantix reduces the urge so when the day arrives, youll be more ready to kiss cigarettes goodbye. When you try to quit smoking, with or without chantix, you may have nicotine withdrawal symptoms. 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A federal Appeals Court in new york unanimously ruled that President Trumps Accounting Firm must turn over eight years of his personal and Corporate Tax returns to manhattan prosecutors. Donald trumps attorneys have argued that as president , he is completely immune not only from criminal prosecution, but from investigations. In the opinion today written by robert katzmann, the chief jeff of the second court of appeals, the court said we are not faced with the president s arrest or imprisonment or with an order compelling him to attend court at a particular time or place or indeed, an order that compels the president himself to do anything. The subpoena at issue is directed not to the president but to his accountants. Compliance does not require the president to do anything at all. The president s lawyer announced they will appeal the case to the United States Supreme Court. Constitutional law professor Laurence Tribe is back with us. Professor tribe, one thing ive been struck by in this case is the speed. This is really showing swift justice. The lawsuit donald trump sued on september 19th. Thats when he filed suit to try to stop these returns. Four days later, the District Court heard overall arguments. Less than two weeks after that, judge marrero issued a 75page decision in which the Appeals Court hears the arguments on less than two weeks after that. And less than two weeks after the arguments, you have judge katzmann with a 35page opinion today upholding the lower court and saying yes, they must hand these over. And nowhere in these two decisions does there seem to be any space for the Supreme Court to rule in another direction. I think thats clearly right. Judge marrero wrote a brilliant decision, making it very easy for the court of appeals to reject the quite absurd position by the president s lawyers that just being president means you cant be investigated, even for your tax violations, your criminal activity when a grand jury, a state grand jury is investigating the matter. It was an extreme position, and the court of appeals rendered so narrow a ruling that there is no basis at all for the u. S. Supreme court to disagree. I think it will not take much time for the Supreme Court to toss this case out, although courts do not always act as swiftly as the federal courts in new york have acted. So i think the key thing to remember is that nothing about the impeachment proceedings needs to await the judicial rulings. These tax returns will come out, whether they come out before or after the president is impeached is almost a sideline, not a matter of great significance. I know that judge katzmanns ruling was very narrow, and he emphasized that. He actually used the word narrow in describing it. Right. Isnt that a judicial strategy when youre handing it to the court above to give the Supreme Court a very narrow case to rule on . Right. Because the only way the Supreme Court could find any hook to reverse is by looking at broad implications of this ruling, but the ruling itself is so indisputably correct that no one of the nine justices could plausibly come up with any reason to reverse it, and the Supreme Court has often said we sit to review judgments, not to write elaborate opinions and essays. There is nothing in this judgment for the Supreme Court to disagree with. It seems to me if this case did not involve the president of the United States that the Supreme Court would be very unlikely to even take it. I dont think theyll take it anyway. The fact that it involves the president gives them an additional reason not to, because for the court to jump into a politically deep thicket and a swamp of sorts, when the legal ruling is clear, convincing and unmistakably correct would be to invite a political mud fight that the court doesnt need and doesnt want. So you think its possible they wont even grant certiorari . They wont even agree to hear the case . I think the most likely thing is simply not agreeing to hear it at all. Professor Laurence Tribe, thank you very much for your guidance tonight. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks. And when we come back, the Mueller Report is back. New pieces of the Mueller Investigation were revealed publicly for the first time this weekend, and they seem to explain a lot about Donald Trumps fixation on ukraine. Thats next. Ladies and gentlemen, your attention please. 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So much goes into who i am and hope to be. Ask your doctor if starting hiv treatment with dovato is right for you. High protein. Low sugar. Tastes great high protein. Low sugar. So good high protein. Low sugar. Mmmm, birthday cake pure protein bars. Try lemon cake. The Mueller Report is back. As a result of a freedom of information act lawsuit brought by buzzfeed news, the Justice Department has now been forced to release hundreds of pages of notes from fbi interviews with witnesses in the russia investigation and more releases are to come. According to these newly released documents, rick gates, the former deputy convicted former Campaign Paul manafort told the fbi during the investigation that Paul Manafort was the first person in the Trump Campaign to raise the Conspiracy Theory that ukraine, not russia, was responsible for the attack on the Democratic National committee emails, stealing those emails in 2016. In the notes from the fbi interview with rick gates, Officials Say gates recalled manafort saying the hack was likely carried out by the ukrainians. That Conspiracy Theory is one of the things that donald trump asked the ukrainian Prime Minister to investigate in their phone call. But according to rick gates, no one was more defensive of russia than michael flynn, Donald Trumps first National Security adviser, who is now a convicted felon for lying to the fbi. After this break, former ambassador to russia michael mcfaul, and Chuck Rosenberg will join us to consider how this new information from the Mueller Investigation can be helpful in the impeachment inquiry. Thats next. Thats next. I get it all the time. Have you lost weight . Of course i have ever since i started renting from national. Because national lets me lose the wait at the counter. And choose any car in the aisle. And i dont wait when i return, thanks to drop go. At national, i can lose the wait. And keep it off. Looking good, patrick. I know. vo go national. Go like a pro. Do you recall, not long ago we would walk on the sidewalk all around the wind blows we would only hold on to let go blow a kiss into the sun we need someone to lean on blow a kiss into the sun we needed somebody to lean on all we need is someone to lean on ukraine did it. Not russia. That was the thinking in trump world. At least some of the people in trump world. Joining us now is michael mcfaul, former u. S. Ambassador to russia in the Obama Administration. Hes an Msnbc National Security analyst. Also with us Chuck Rosenberg, former senior fbi official and former u. S. Attorney. Hes a former counsel to Robert Mueller at the fbi. Now he hosts the msnbc podcast the oath. And ambassador mcfaul, we have with these socalled 302s, these fbi notes for the Mueller Investigation just released this weekend, this new window into trump worlds thinking about russia. Michael flynn just totally defensive of everything involving russia in ways that rick gates describes to the fbi and others. What was your reading of what we discovered there . I havent Read Everything yet, lawrence. I have a day job out at stanford. But what i have read from the summary reports, its just shocking. This crazy idea about ukraine being responsible. And before we get to their interpretation of it, i just want to remind everybody that in 2016 candidate trump was saying he might look into recognizing crimea as being part of russia. Candidate trump was saying he wanted to lift sanctions on the russians and he wanted to blow up nato and he never said a word about democracy or human rights. So why would the ukrainians want to steal emails from the dnc to help donald trump . It just makes no sense. But the fact that theyre talking about it is truly shocking, and then it appears in the phone call with president zelensky. President trump then makes it Crystal Clear that he Still Believes this broad conspiracy. And why i think thats important is it shows that that one phone call was not just some oneoff thing but it was a predicate that goes back years now about the way they were thinking about their relationship with ukraine. Chuck rosenberg, can the impeachment inquiry use any of this information that has come out this weekend to at least inform the way they are looking at this evidence . Oh, sure they can, lawrence. You know, the way the fbi uses these memoranda of interview often are as pointers. They point to other people, places where you might find documents, questions you might want to ask, things you might want to follow up on. So the congress could use it in the same way. Of course these documents are heavily redacted. So they may not be quite as helpful to the congress as they were to the mueller team. Nevertheless, this is going to tell them where to look. And as the ambassador said, help to establish a timeline, how far back does some of this conduct go. And who might know more about it. So it can be helpful. Im not sure it will be dispositive. But it can certainly be helpful. One of the revelations in the fbi documents, it reveals that the Republican National committee, the Republican Party knew the timing that would be involved in the releasing of the emails, democratic emails during the campaign, had said the rnc also indicated that they knew the timing of the upcoming releases. Gates did not specify who at the rnc knew this information. Gates said the only nonpublic information the rnc had was related to the timing of the releases. And ambassador mcfaul, the timing was everything including the timing of some of the releases occurring within hours of the release of the access Hollywood Video was donald trump was bragging about sexual assault. Of course. And when i read that, i wondered what are the sourcing for that, how did they know about the timing, who was in the loop . And remember, Paul Manafort was very close, his main client in ukraine was viktor yanukovych, who at this time is in exile in russia, right . Remember that. That his client is in russia and people connected to him are connected to Vladimir Putin and mr. Kilimnik, if you remember that name from the Mueller Report. He also is going back and forth with these russian contacts. So it made me just want to know is there more to the russia connection going all the way back then . And again, they would be the same people that would be spinning this kooky idea that the ukrainians, the enemies of mr. Yanukovych, the enemies of Paul Manafort, were responsible for the dnc hacking. And chuck, how does the committee take notice of this . Is this something they can simply now that its become public through the freedom of information act, can they just adopt it into the record of their investigation if they want to . They sure can. And again, they can use it for questioning other witnesses or for seeking other documents. The one cautionary note, lawrence, which i think is important, these are essentially raw intelligence reports. When an fbi agent sits down with someone and interviews them, she writes down whatever they say. If that person lies to her, she writes it down. If that person tells her the truth, she writes it down. And if that person is guessing, she writes it down. So theyre faithful recordations, but theyre not always accurate. And so you have to be careful with them. But they are very useful. Again, for helping to point you in the direction of where you can get other information. And congress is free to use them. By the way, if they get the full grand jury information that the mueller team assembled, they will have the unredacted memos and can fill in all the details that we cannot yet see. Former ambassador to russia michael mcfaul, thank you for joining our discussion tonight. And Chuck Rosenberg, please stay with us. When we come back, well talk about Rudy Giulianis pal, lev parnas, who now says hes willing to cooperate with the house impeachment investigation. That cannot be good for Rudy Giuliani or the president of the United States. United states. At bayer, we make aspirin to help save lives during a heart attack. So it never stops the heart of a family. At bayer, this is why we science. I need all the breaks as athat i can get. Or, at liberty butchemel. Cut. Liberty mu. Line . Cut. Liberty mutual customizes your Car Insurance so you only pay for what you need. Cut. Liberty m. Am i allowed to riff . What if i come out of the water . Liberty biberty. Cut. Well dub it. 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Before treatment your doctor should check you for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms such as fevers, sweats, chills, muscle aches or coughs, or if you plan to or recently received a vaccine. Nothing is everything ask your dermatologist about skyrizi. One of Rudy Giulianis partners in crime who has actually been indicted by the federal government is now flipping and announcing his cooperation with the impeachment inquiry. Giulianis friends and partners lev parnas and igor fruman have been indicted for their activities involving ukraine. Rudy giuliani is a continuing subject of that criminal investigation. And now after dropping a lawyer who once represented donald trump, lev parnas is saying through his new lawyer that he will cooperate with the impeachment inquiry by testifying and supplying documents subpoenaed by congress. The New York Times reports tonight that lev parnass change of heart has to do directly with donald trump, who denied knowing lev parnas after his arrest. Mr. Parnas was very upset by President Trumps plainly false statement that he did not know him, said joseph bondy whose client has maintained that he has had extensive dealings with the president. Chuck rosenberg is back with us. Chuck, what do you make of this flip . At least in relation to the congressional inquiry. How does a witness say not witness but a defendant in a criminal case say im willing to testify as a witness in this same matter to congress while im awaiting trial in this criminal case . Precisely the right question, lawrence. So its perilous, right . Until he resolves his criminal case in the Southern District of new york, either by pleading guilty or going to trial and being acquitted or convicted, he has a huge problem. Anything he says publicly could be used against him in that trial. And so maybe it means hes trying to resolve the criminal case, perhaps by pleading guilty. But we dont know that yet. Or perhaps he wants to help congress but cant do that just now because hes limited in what he can say. He has a couple of gates he needs to get through. But i will say this. Most defendants become convicted felons and most convicted felons look for a way to cooperate in order to reduce their sentence. And he still has the fifth amendment available to him. His lawyer makes that clear, that if he does testify to congress and if he does have fifth amendment interests that he must protect he will. But that could conceivably leave some pretty big areas that they could explore in his testimony. Sure. Thats right. But i think if he wants to cut a deal the way to do it is to do it in sort of a global resolution, meaning to resolve the case with the Southern District of new york, to agree to cooperate with any state, federal, or local prosecutor who wants his help. And as part of that to help congress if they seek his testimony as part of the impeachment inquiry. You know, again, he does have a fifth amendment privilege. He has a pending case. And so i understand why he wants to cooperate. But he has a good attorney now. I know one of them. And i respect him. And i think theyre going to be very careful with what he says before that trial, before that open matter in the Southern District of new york, lawrence, is resolved. I just want to remind the audience how shocking this new posture is with his previous legal posture because his previous legal posture was so shocking, enunciated by john dowd, who had worked as Donald Trumps lawyer for a while. John dowd said that mr. Parnass testimony could include attorneyclient privilege because he was working with Rudy Giuliani, therefore part of the president s legal team, and so he would somehow fall under the attorneyclient privilege that exists between donald trump and Rudy Giuliani. And then also dowd referred to other privileges, possibly executive privilege if the president would somehow extend to this defendant. Yeah, i think the legal word for that, lawrence, is nonsense. By the way and im sure your viewers remember this. Michael cohen at one point professed that he was going to take a bullet for mr. Trump and then was eager to testify against him, including in open session in congress. So again, most defendants become convicted felons and most convicted felons look for ways to cooperate. I imagine mr. Parnas is going to look for a way to cooperate. He has good attorneys to guide him through this thicket. Chuck rosenberg gets tonights last word. Thanks for joining us, chuck. Really appreciate it. My pleasure. That is tonights last word. The 11th hour with Brian Williams starts now. And the democrats just released transcripts of their own. They tell a remarkable story of our ambassador to ukraine realizingss rudy was conducting foreign policy, realizing she was being drummed out with no support from her boss, feeling threatened on the job and amazed to hear the president talking about her with a foreign leader on the phone. Also tonight, the increasing evidence that the ukraine corruption Conspiracy Theory dates back to Paul Manafort, who is now in prison. Ck and a big