Transcripts For MSNBCW The Last Word With Lawrence ODonnell 20191101

Word with lawrence odonnell. I hope someone tells donald trump hes still going to have to file new york tax returns every year. He doesnt escape filing the new york tax returns. There will be probably some state tax benefit for him in going to a state like florida that doesnt have a state income tax, but he will get to vote in a swing state. Maybe thats the most important benefit. Sf yeah, i dont know. When it comes to him getting advice on legal matters, youve seen what his lawyers try to argue in court. Im not sure anybodys going to tell him. Weve got some breaking news. President trump did an interview with the Washington Examiner. I think we now know what the new chant is going to be. Remember build the wall . Yeah. I think its going to be read the transcript. Donald trump in this interview told the Washington Examiner that he has all sorts of plans for surviving this impeachment investigation including tshirts with the slogan, read the transcript. He remembers that when the country read the transcript thats when he started getting impeached right . I dont know what he knows. I dont know. I dont know. Amazing. Thank you, rachel. Thanks, laurnwrence. On this historic night when the house of representatives voted on the procedures for impeaching the president of the United States, i am very pleased we will be joined once again by ezra klein who first discussed the subject of impeaching donald trump with me on this program two years ago when the Trump Presidency already had many of us considering the impeachment of donald trump. Ezra wrote the most important article of that period about impeachment arguing that the process should be demystified and approached without fear. He said then we have grown too afraid of the consequences of impeachment and too complacent about the consequences of leaving an unfit president in office. Not anymore. At the end of this hour, ezra klein will join us to consider what america is about to learn about the impeachment of the president of the United States. But first, now there are two. Two witnesses who have testified to the house impeachment inquiry who were listening in on President Trumps phone call with the president of ukraine. The phone call that is going to get the president of the United States impeached no matter how often he tells people to read the transcript. The second witness to testify about listening to the president s phone call gave his testimony while the house of representatives was taking an historic vote, a vote no member of congress ever expects to cast, a vote on a resolution authorizing and detailing the procedures for an impeachment inquiry of the president of the United States. Hopefully as we go forward with this for the clarity of purpose, the clarity of procedure, a clarity of fact, a clarity of truth, its about the truth. Its about the constitution. We will do so in a way that brings people together that is healing rather than dividing, and that is how we will honor our oath of office. I urge an i vote and yield back the balance of my time. General lady yields back. It was a Party Line Vote with 232 in favor and 196 opposed. All republicans opposed the resolution. Justin amash who left the Republican Party and is now an independent member of congress voted in favor of the impeachment resolution. Two democratic congressmen who represent districts that were won by donald trump voted against the resolution, but both of those democrats calling peterson of minnesota and Jeff Van Drew of new jersey said they will make a decision on impeaching the president only after all of the evidence has been publicly presented. So the likelihood tonight is that when all of the evidence is publicly presented there will be at least 232 votes in the house of representatives to impeach Donald John Trump and send him to trial in the United States senate. Because the phone call cannot get better. Thats the problem. The rough transcript of President Trumps phone call with the president of ukraine remains the most damning evidence in the case against the president. That phone call did get a bit worse on tuesday when Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman testified that he heard the president make one more reference to joe biden that does not appear in the white house rough transcript in the section where donald trump was asking for ukraines help in his Reelection Campaign by urging ukraine to investigate joe biden. Lieutenant colonel vindman is of course a nonpartisan witness. He has no history of occupational association with democrats or republicans. Todays witness to the phone call is a career long partisan republican who served on republican Congressional Staffs before joining the white house staff, tim morrison has been serving as senior director for European Affairs at the white house and the National Security council. Tim morrison is leaving that job, and his employment future is entirely dependent on the good graces of republicans in washington, either as a lobbyist with access to republicans or in any future government position. Tim morrison seemed to be looking for ways to keep his options open in future republican employment in his testimony today when he tried to be as generous as possible to the president saying things like i am pleased our process gave the president the confidence he needed to approve the release of the Security Sector assistance for ukraine. But the process tim morrison actually described was consistent with the completely corrupted process that included Rudy Giuliani and was described in testimony already by Ambassador William Taylor and Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman. In his testimony today, tim morrison described that process in these terms. Ambassador sondland and President Trumps personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani were trying to get president zelensky to reopen ukrainian investigations into burisma. At the time i did not know what burisma was or what the investigation entailed. After the meeting with dr. Hill, i googled burisma and learned that it was a Ukrainian Energy company and that hunter biden was on its board. I also did not understand why ambassador sondland would be involved in ukraine policy often without the involvement of our duly appointed chief of Mission Ambassador bill taylor. In his opening statement, this is what tim morrison said about Donald Trumps phone call with the president of ukraine. I listened to the call as it occurred from the situation room to the best of my recollection the mem con accurately and completely reflects the substance of the call. I also recall that i did not see anyone from nsc Legal Advisers office in the room during the call. After the call, i promptly asked the nsc Legal Adviser and his deputy to review it. I had three concerns about a potential leak of the memcon, first, how it would play out in washingtons polarized environment. Second, how a leak would affect the bipartisan support of our ukrainian partners currently experienced in congress, ask third, how it would affect the ukrainians perception of the u. S. , ukraine relationship. I was not concerned that anything illegal was discussed. And Lieutenant Colonel vindman also reported his concerns to the National Security councils lawyer after the president s phone call. The Washington Post is reporting this dramatic account of colonel vindmans closed door testimony on tuesday. After the call, vindman hurried to john easenburgs door, bringing with him his twin brother, an ethics attorney, vindman read out loud notes he took on the president s call. Eisenburg sukted they move records of the call to a separate highly classified computer system. Former trump National Security said it was unheard of to store president ial calls on that system, but that eisenburg had moved at least one other transcript there. Leading our discussion, a member of the House Oversight committee and House Judiciary Committee. He attended part of Tim Morrisons deposition today. Also joining us tess bridgeman former special assistant to the president , deputy Legal Adviser to the National Security council and associate White House Council in the obama administration. And ron klain, former senior aide to Vice President joe biden and, ron klain is an adviser on joe bidens president ial campai campaign. The president in this interview tonight with the Washington Examiner is calling Tim Morrisons testimony fantastic. He doesnt seem to understand that tim morrison has basically corroborated the worst evidence against the president , which of course is what he said to the president of ukraine in that phone call. Right. Look, he was called today as a fact witness, and you know, i cant go into the details of what i saw, but if everything that youre quoting is true, then he indeed was a corroborating fact witness in this case. He was not called for his legal opinions about anything, and hes not even a lawyer, so what he thought about the president s conduct is neither here nor there from a legal or constitutional perspective, but what he was able to verify from a factual perspective is definitely very important to us. The critical point here is weve now had around a dozen witnesses, all of whom are telling us the same story, the president staged a shakedown operation against the Ukrainian Government in order to obtain this political information that he wanted about the bidens and burisma, and in order to verify a false story about the 2016 campaign essentially replacing what we know about the system and a sweeping effort by russia to subvert our campaign with a false story about ukraine. Everythings lined up there, so ultimately, i believe were going to find that the republicans are going to make an argument that were starting to hear now, which is not that none of this happened. Theyre going to quietly concede that. Theyre just going to say it doesnt quite rise to the level of an impeachable offense. I think thats going to be their last ditch argument. What can you tell us about what it was like today to be on the house floor for the kind of vote that no member of congress ever expects to cast . Well, it was somber, and a lot of my colleagues who oftentimes speak with a lot of rhetorical flourish or humor were very subdued, and i spoke also, and i found myself in a very solemn and serious mode. We are acting in a certain sense vindicating the values of the founders of the constitution looking backwards, but also looking forwards were acting in the service of future generations. It was a pretty heavy thing ive got to tell you. At the same time, i think it felt honorable that we were standing strong for our constitution. We were disappointed that the republicans decided to, you know, lock arms and say they didnt want to be part of an investigation when we were giving them precisely what theyve been asking for for the last several weeks, which is open hearings and the ability for the committee to release the depositions and so on. Its obvious that they havent figured out what to say about the fact that the basic grafment of the complaint seems to be proven more and more every single day so instead they rail about the process. And i think that that act is beginning to wear on people. It looks pretty thin. There are a couple of times over the last week or two where theyve turned the peoples house into animals house with their various antics and provocations, and i dont think its a very good look for our colleagues across the isle. Tess bridgeman your old job in the white house is right in the center of the drama because immediately afterwards thats apparently where everyone is running, over to the National Security council, the Lawyers Office and the deputy, you being the deputy and the deputys present in these scenes. Colonel vindman goes over there. We hear morrison goes over there. I dont know if theyre bumping into each other as theyre going in and out of that room, but what do you make about morrisons account today of rushing over to the Councils Office . What i found out about it is what he the reasons he then says he was concerned about the phone call have nothing to do with the Councils Office. Thats right, lawrence. There is manager thats quite odd about his account of why he went to speak with the nsc Legal Adviser and his deputy. He mentions being concerned about leaks, being concerned about partisanship, being concerned about ukraine policy more broadly. These are the kinds of things that you might go to the Communications Office for, that you might go and talk with the executive secretary if youre concerned about where the document is being handled within the white house complex. I think whats very telling is that everyone else whos provided an account of rushing into that office has said they did so because they were deeply concerned about what they saw as grave misconduct. They knew that it is wrong for the president to use his office to try to shake down a foreign leader to do political favors for him, and they were deeply invested in carrying out the bipartisan ukraine policy that is, you know, core to why there is such a high National Security cost to the president s personal aggrandizement here. They knew this was standing in the way of u. S. Support for ukraine being able to defend itself against russia for the core principle that you dont take borders by force. I think morrisons account that he went to the Councils Office for these other peripheral reasons that dont sound in conduct or legality really dont ring true or theres something more to what he was expecting the legal office to do with that information. Ron, it reads to me like Tim Morrisons trying to preserve his life in republican employment in washington after this, and it worked. Hes got donald trump tonight saying that his testimony was fantastic because he put in some sentences there that to donald trump sound positive, but in the substance, it is all equally condemning as colonel vindmans was, even the point of saying that the rough transcript that the white house put out of the phone call is accurate in substance. Accurate in substance means there could be missing pieces of it, but in substance it is accurate. And so theres actually no contradictions here that we can find in the public testimony so far between tim morrison and colonel vindman. Thats right, lawrence, i mean, its stunning as congressman raskin alluded to earlier. Youve had all these witnesses come before the Intelligence Committee and 8 to 12 of them basically confirmed the same story. Thats more than the number of trick or treaters i had at my house tonight. Its a stunning lineup of witnesses all confirming the same story. As to mr. Morrisons statement that he wasnt concerned about illegality, i think thats partly your explanation that he wanted to preserve his viability in washington and partly he wanted to avoid pleading guilty to a crime. The effort to hide this document would be an act of obstruction of justice, and i dont think mr. Morrison was prepared to plead guilty to obstruction in the house Intelligence Committee. He told the truth, he told basically the story everyones told so far is true, the story that the transcript confirms is true. Donald trump shook down a Foreign Government for political assistance. He betrayed his oath of office. He betrayed our National Security interests and the evidence on that is just overwhelming now. Congressman jamie raskin, tess bridge man, thank you for starting our discussion. We really appreciate it. When we come back, two witnesses that democrats want to question in the impeachment information were in federal court today trying to get those subpoenas blocked or clarifications on whether those clarifications will be blocked. Will answer all their legal questions for them for free. Thats next. Exxonmobil is growing algae for biofuels. That could one day power planes, propel ships, and fuel trucks. And cut their Greenhouse Gas emissions in half. Algae. Its potential just keeps growing. Its potential just keeps growing. I used to book my hotel room on those traalways a catch. Here was like somehow you wind up getting less. But now that i book at hilton. Com, and i get all these great perks. I got to select my room from the floor plan. Very nice. I know, im good at picking stuff. Free wifi. Laptop by the pool is a bold choice. And the price match guarantee. How do you know all of this . Are you like some magical hilton fairy . 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In fact, in two different federal courtrooms, two different witnesses fighting subpoenas from the house of representatives. Joining us now, neil cat yell, former acting solicitor general. He is an msnbc legal contributor and coaauthor of impeach, the case against donald trump. Thank you so much for joining us tonight. Lets start with the don mcgahn subpoena. Lets consider what happened in that case. The judge really had a struggle trying to understand why don mcgahn should not be forced to comply with a house subpoena. Yeah, so you had two things going on really today two different witnesses. I think the most important thing to start your discussion is thats all gravy from the house impeachment stand point. The evidence against trump as youve been discussing for the first ten minutes is overwhe overwhelming. Its trumps own words, so you know, these witnesses are nice, and mcgahn and kupperman will be helpful to the houses case, but theyre not necessary at all. What trump is trying to do here is delay them from testifying as much as he can, and the argument that he made before judge jackson today, his lawyers and the Justice Department lawyers was pretty much, you know, poppycock, you know. Basically he came in and said the house cant file a lawsuit at all to get this information. Judge jackson said asking the Justice Department trump lawyer what . Youre saying the house can never go to court . Answer by the Justice Department lawyer, yes. That flies in the face of decades of precedent at the court and is going nowhere. So this is bad lawyering, a bad legal argument, and ultimately, you know, i think its all trumps got at this point, but its not looking too good. You know, its a bad legal argument, but those are the corners, the corners that theyre getting painted into in court are corners theyve painted for themselves. There was tno other answer, right . Given the logic of what theyre arguing there was no other answer at that point other than, no, the house can never go to court. Well, you know, i think responsible lawyering would have been to try and say, look, you know, some of the things this guy, the former white house lawyer don mcgahn might testify to might be sensitive involving executive privilege or Something Like that to be narrow. But what theyve done is just throw down the gauntlet and say no, nothing, you cant do anything. You cant testify at all. You cant talk about anything. Im the president. Im a king, and you know, thats what we fought the revolution about, and thats why these arguments have been spectacularly unsuccessful. Judge jackson is a widely respected judge, and i think she in the course of hours of hearings today really decimated the governments argument. Lets go to the other case which is procedurally much stranger. Its a lawsuit the likes of im not sure weve ever seen. This is charles kupperman. John bolton was his boss in the white house, and hes asking the court through a lawsuit to answer to him should he comply with a house subpoena or now that hes a private citizen, shoul should he follow Donald Trumps request, which is all that it is, a request that he not testify to the house, the assumption being that john bolton will be added to this case because hes represented by the same lawyer if john bolton gets a subpoena . Yeah, lawrence, i think the best way for your viewers to understand this lawsuit is its not really a lawsuit. Its a delaying tactic. What kupperman is doing is coming in and trying to buy time so he did you want haoesnt have subpoena and testify in congress. You know, i dont know what his motivations are, but thats the effect of what hes doing, and hes gotten the support from the Trump Administration for that so much so that the Trump Administration when the judge here, judge leon whos a widely respected judge as well in d. C. , judge leon set the argument for december, and the lawyer for the Trump Administration said, oh, no, thats going to interfere with thanksgiving. Can you please make it even longer . And what judge leon said was quote, when its a matter of importance for the country, you roll your sleeves up and you get the job done. This is about delay, and its about trying to run out the clock on impeachment, and the problem with that is twofold. Number one, the evidence against trump is so overwhelming, and number two, it looks more and more nixonian, more and more like obstruction of justice, which after all was a separate article in the nixon impeachment. Neal katyal thank you so much. We really appreciate it. Thank you. Republican president ial candidate bill weld will react to todays impeachment resolution vote where not a single republican, not one republican voted for it, and that is a first because previous impeachment resolutions have been bipartisan votes. 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Republicans in congress have been complaining about the closed door depositions being conducted in the impeachment inquiry even though 48 Republican House members are invited to every one of those depositions, but today when republicans were given a chance to vote on a resolution that established the rules of the road for public hearings, every republican voted against public hearings in the investigation of the president. We have never seen a purely partisan vote on a resolution authorizing an impeachment inquiry. In 1974 it was almost completely bipartisan in the house of representatives when a resolution authorizing the impeachment investigation of president Richard Nixon passed almost unanimously in the house. 410 to 4. In 1998, 31 democrats joined republicans in voting for a resolution authorizing the impeachment investigation of president bill clinton, 258 to 176. Our next guest was there working in the house of representatives in 1974 as a republican staff member in the house of representatives, working on the impeachment investigation of president Richard Nixon right alongside another young house staffer named Hillary Rodham who married bill clinton the next year after the nixon impeachment investigation. Joining us now is former massachusetts republican governor bill weld. During watergate he was on the staff of the House Judiciary Committee. He is now running for the president ial nomination against donald trump. Governor weld, thank you very much for joining us tonight. What was your reaction today to see not a single republican vote in the house of representatives for this resolution for public hearings . Well, its quite a contrast to 1974 in the nixon impeachment proceedings. Fif first of all, the vote to authorize it was overwhelming, only four dissenting votes in the entire representatives. The respective chief counsel and republican chief counsel of that committee were quite clear they wanted to run a unified staff, so much so that ms. Rodham and myself found ourselves in the same office. We were both members of the constitutional and legal staff. I think we shared that office with a woman from arkansas, tara kirkpatrick. We consulted frequently with another member of the democratic staff. There were other republican lawyers who contributed to the memorandum defining whats impeachable conduct by a president , and the whole thing was right out in the open with democrats and republicans who didnt always agree on everything, but they certainly were discussing everything back and forth. And at the end of the day, i think there were seven republican votes to proceed to the senate and ten against. Thats until the tapes came out, and when the tapes came out, it was all over in one day. I want to read to you from the Washington Examiner tonight, some breaking news, the president gaive an interview tonight outlining i guess what you could call his strategy including getting tshirts printed with the slogan read the transcript. He also says this in the Washington Examiner at some point im going to sit down, perhaps as a fireside chat on live television, and i will read the transcript of the call because people have to hear it. When you read it, its a straight call. If you were defending the president , would you advise him to do that . No, i certainly wouldnt because when you read it, its an impeachable and removable offense. The president says, look, we do a lot for you. P. S. , i just withheld 400 million in aid that you need to fight those russian tanks on your Eastern Front in your hot war and, you know, we could do a lot more for you. And then he says i need a favor, though. That word, though, is a dikille. It implies all this good stuff is not going to happen unless he gets the favor, which is digging up dirt on hunter biden. There were two things that the founders were most worried about when they were drafting the impeachment clause. Number one was foreign interference in our affairs and number two was corruption of the office, which was use of the office to promote personal gain. This those days bribery of a monar monarch was not at all uncommon ask thats precisely what the founders were worried about. Those two things, and theyre there in spades in the very transcript that President Trump you say wants everyone to read. The president weve heard, weve read on the phone with the president of ukraine desperately worried about joe biden to the point where hes willing to engage in what many are calling criminal conduct on that phone call. He also apparently is very, very afraid of bill weld, and hes taking every step possible to simply stop republican primaries in states. The breaking news tonight on minnesota is that minnesota is now tonight i think pulling back from having any kind of republican president ial primary. What does that do to your campaign if donald trump is so afriday afraid of you getting any votes that hes trying to just eliminate primaries . It is amazing, lawrence. They actually tried earlier in the year to eliminate the first in the nation primary in New Hampshire. Needless to say and the, you know, republican state committee, which is appointed by trump in every state, its the Trump Organization said yeah, lets get rid of this first in the nation primary. The voters in New Hampshire are not stupid, and they know that a lot of their clout comes from having the first in the nation primary every four years. So that went over like a lead balloon. But that was such an extreme gambit, you know, thats a motion that failed for want of a second. My read is that they know that the president how shall i put this does not have a solid Knowledge Base about any of the issues that have to be air instead a fully contested primary, and so they dont want there to be a primary or an election, and the president has said the same thing, and he jokes about his third term and his fifth term and wasnt it great what xi jinping did in china, how he doesnt have to have elections anymore. This is what the president really thinks. Republican president ial candidate bill weld, thank you very much for joining us tonight. I really appreciate it. Thank you, lawrence. And when we come back, the impeachment inquiry will be televised. The question is when . Thats next. Advanced brain disease research, and better ways to age gracefully. At bayer, this is why we science. Did you know that feeling sluggish or weighed down could be signs that your digestive system isnt working at its best . Taking metamucil every day can help. 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Im about to capture proof of the ivory billed woodpecker. What . . . No, no no no no. Battery power runs out. Lifetime Retirement Income from tiaa doesnt. Guaranteed monthly income for life. Nooooo congresswoman katie hill has become the victim of a bitter divorce proceeding with her husband who she says publicly released naked pictures of her and accused her of having an inappropriate relationship with a Congressional Staff member, which she denies and with a Campaign Staff member. As a candidate katie hill pub c publicly revealed she is bisexual so sexual exclusivity was understood by her voters to not necessarily be part of the framework of her marriage. Katie hill decided the distraction had become too much for her to effectively continue her work in the house of representatives, and today she said this after casting her final vote as a freshman member of the house. Yet a man who brags about his sexual predation whos had dozens of women come forward to accuse him of sexual assault, who pushes policies that are uniquely harmful to women and who have filled the courts with judges who proudly rule to deprive women of the most fundamental right to control their own bodies sits in the highest office of the land, and so today as my last vote, i voted on impeachment proceedings, not just because of corruption, obstruction of justice or gross misconduct, but because of the deepest abuse of power including the abuse of power over women. Today as my final act, i voted to move forward with the impeachment of donald trump on behalf of the women of the United States of america. The impeachment will be televised and after this break, joyce vance and ron klain will bring their considerable experience to our discussion about what we will see in the televised impeachment proceedings against Donald John Trump in the house of representatives. Thats next. 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But then juul, backed by big tobacco, wrote prop c to weaken ecigarette protections. The San Francisco chronicle reports prop c is an audacious overreach, threatening to overturn the ban on flavored products approved by voters. Prop c means more kids vaping. Thats a dangerous idea. Vote no on juul. No on big tobacco. No on prop c. Beyond the routine checkups. Beyond the notsoroutine cases. Comcast business is helping doctors provide care in whole new ways. All working with a new generation of technologies powered by our gigspeed network. Because beyond technology. There is human ingenuity. Every day, comcast business is helping businesses go beyond the expected. To do the extraordinary. Take your business beyond. I answered it once, i answered it twice. Im going to answer it one time. These rules are fairer than anything that have gone before in terms of an impeachment proceeding. Heres how jim mcgovern the chairman of the house and rules committee explained the impeachment inquiry rules today. This resolution provides better protections for the president than what president s nixon and clinton received, and just like under nixon and clinton and the judiciary committee, the president s counsel can submit additional testimony or evidence for the committee to consider. The president and his counsel can attend all hearings and raise objections, they can question any witness. Joining us now joyce vance of these public hearings . Well, they are very fair, lawrence. This is a set of rules that gives the president and his lawyers a lot of visibility into the investigative part of these proceedings. As you pointed out earlier, the house finds itself in the unusual position of not having had a special counsel, not having had investigators to assemble an investigation, so theyre having to do that themselves, and typically in these proceedings targets are subjects of an investigation dont get to see whats going on. Here the president will. I expect well still hear more complaints from the republicans about process though. Ron klain, if i had let the tape keep running, jim mcgovern eventually says every other detail about these rules, of course there isnt any version of the rules that the republicans wouldnt complain about. Theres no question about that, lawrence. They said 40 billion words about the process here, four words they cant say is trump didnt do it. So theyre going to continue to gripe and complain about the process when the hearings were private, they wanted them public. Now that theyll be public, theyll want them private. Theyll want witnesses deposed not deposed, its just going to go back and forth. Theyre going to complain and complain about the process. The rules provide for staff attorneys to ask questions in periods of 45 minutes, so theyll have long blocks where they can do uninterrupted questioning. We saw a version of that in the House Judiciary Committee when barry burke questioned corey lewandowski. Lets take a look at that. Did you lie, sir, in Television Interviews denying that you had been asked to give answers to the special counsel . I dont believe so. So you deny that you ever lied in public statements about whether you what im saying is when under oath, ive always told the truth. Whether it was before special counsel, whether it was before the House Judiciary Committee, whether it was before the house Intelligence Committee on two separate occasions or before the senate Intelligence Committee. Every time ive raised my right hand to god ive sworn and told the truth. Thats not my question to you, sir. Well get to that. On National Television did you lie about your relationship with the special counsel and whether they sought your interview . I dont know. Joyce vance, it was a thing to behold, and nrnunfortunately came after about ten hours of very inept questioning by members of the committee. It seems like theyve learned their lesson . I think they have learned their lesson, and the important takeaway here is that this is not a happy moment in our country. This is a sad event, a serious event. We need to get to the truth. Thats not a political statement, Neither Party owns the truth, but the country needs to understand what happened so we can move forward, and the best way to do that is to have traditional questioning to have someone who will help to complete the narrative and have witnesses tell their stories about what happened. Now well finally get that. Ron klain, having worked on a committee yourself, Senate Judiciary committee, is it a struggle with members in situations like this because they all have their moment in front of the microphone, and the constituents can see them back home in the big moment to get them to give up that time . They will all still have a chance, but none of them are going to be better than the staff counsel on the committee. I think thats right, lawrence, and look, i think many of these people are skilled questioners and talented attorneys, but having a professional have a concerted period of time, 45 minutes to really walk through the narrative step by step as joyce said is going to create a powerful moment. When you see these witnesses we didnt see this in the clinton impeachment, fact witnesses come before the committee be expertly questioned, tell their story, and then have those clips everywhere on the internet, on social media, this is going to be a really new experience and i think a very powerful experience for the country. And joyce, to be clear, the republican minority on the committee has exactly the same right. Their counsel can ask questions for 45 minutes uninterrupted, but it seems like republican members of the committee might have a larger interest in getting their five minutes, especially if theyre still doing nothing but stunts for the camera. So far we havent heard any sort of substantive rebuttal from republicans to the allegations that are emerging about the president s conduct in ukraine, and thats a real problem for them. What did they do with their 45 minutes . If they cant attack the witnesses on substance, all theyre left with is posturing during their fiveminute, they will be in a tough position, but its one of their own making. And ron, the president s lawyers will also have the right to question witnesses . They will, but as joyce said, if your defense isnt he didnt do it, im not really sure what questions theyre going to ask. They will try some of the smears like were made against perhaps Lieutenant Colonel vindman the other night on fox, they may try to assail the process altogether, my guess is theyll make a bunch of speeches appealing to trump, to trumps voters. It will be a very fact finding exercise on one side and a political exercise on the other side. Thank you both for joining our discussion, really appreciate it. Thanks lawrence. Ezra klein will get tonights last word on this historic day as the impeachment of donald trump is finally underway. Snacking should be sweet and simple. 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And three hours later Kellyanne Conways little secret was once again revealed, which is that she doesnt know anything about anything. And so under Nancy Pelosis leadership tonight the democrats are finally formally engaged in the impeachment process against donald trump and unified in that process. Joining us now is ezra klein, editor at large at fox and host of the new podcast impeachment explained, and ezra, its our twoyear anniversary. It was two years ago that you and i first discussed this subject together here on this program after youd written a long and thoughtful piece about impeachment and how it fits both in our psyche and our politics. We are finally here. Your reaction to what happened in the house today . Well, first, i was so concerned you had forgot our anniversary. Thank you. It means a lot to me. I thought two things about today. So the first thing i thought is that the implicit theory of president ial accountability being put forward by the republicans is that there should be none under any circumstances when a republican is in offices is actually pretty constitutionally scary. What got put forward today was not impeachment, but impeachment inquiry. I think you would have to be blind to at least not want to look into it. The fact that republicans gave an opportunity to vote for a public hearing process where they would get their lead on the Relevant Committee would get 45 minutes to question witnesses, its i think pretty scary, and i think it forever shreds the idea that any of these people are constitutional conservatives. The other thing is that to what you just had from Kellyanne Conway, the worst bet to make in washington is that nancy pelosi has not counted the votes. Yeah, theres nothing clearer than that, andst it one of those great little moments because it just shows that the entire Kellyanne Conway is just an act. Theres nothing in it ever. What do you expect to see as we go forward . We have not heard any substantive defense of the president. The president is tonight telling the Washington Examiner that his entire defense is what the prosecution thinks is the entire prosecution, which is the rough transcript of the call. President trump saying he wants to have a fireside chat on tv where he reads the transcript of his phone call with the president of ukraine, and that is exactly the thing that the democrats say condemns the president. I dont know, man. What do you want me to say to that . The thing that is the scariest piece of all of this to me is not that trump did it. Its that somewhere in there i think it is actually plausible that trump believes he did nothing wrong, that he believes he has so conflated his interests with that of the country that he believes it would have been perfectly fine, in fact, it would have been the right thing to do as president to use the power of his office to extort another county into investigating another political rival because he saw a expertise theory on fox and friends or wherever it was he initially saw it. I think thats actually a real problem. Its one thing to have cynical players in the white house who are in a machiavellian way knowingly betraying the country and their own interests. Thats bad. In some ways its almost worse to have the bull in the china shop who doesnt even realize what theyre doing is wrong. Thats genuinely dangerous, in this and so many things going back to the piece you and i talked about yeersz ago now, one of the other problems is donald trump is not fit for the job that holds and that sometimes comes outs through corruption, sometimes comes out through incompetent and sometimes comes outs through bad judgment, you think its perfect when its actually the thing thats launched an impeachment inquiry about you. Thats one of the many things that is scary about donald trump. At the time you were writing two years ago, the worry that we all had was that donald trump could find himself in a Nuclear Exchange with north korea at that point, things were going so badly, and his behavior was publicly so erratic about that, and one of the things you argued for was just relaxing a little bit about impeachment. Everyone in Public Office when they talk about it i think its mandatory for them, i guess, to say that its very sad and its very sad that it has come to this, and no one thinks its going to be very sad if you have to get rid of the ceo of boeing because their planes crash. They think its what you do, and you were making an argument that we should look at this a little bit more the way Corporate America looks at changing ceos when they have to. Or the way the founders looked at it. James madison said the president should be impeached for removing meritorious officers wontingly. It was talked about often at the beginning of the country that impeachment was a way to deal with an uncontrollable executive. As you say with the boeing example, the idea that the most powerful person in the country would be the one with the most job security, that there would be nothing to do in between elections if they were out of control is wild, and its all the more wild given that the only reason donald trump sits in that chair at all is that for years and years and years he appeared on our Television Screens firing people for apparently not doing a good job in dumb games. We should be able to fire somebody for doing a terrible job and abusing power and putting the countrys leverage at risk in order to further their own political prospects. It could not be more appropriate that ezra klein gets tonights last word. Ed ezra, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Really tonight the push to impeachment. Passes its first public hurdle, and the republicans dont like it. The hearings are about to go public, and the president is trying to lock up his support, even as more closed door testimony comes in. As to just how big a moment this is, the one were currently living in, one over our experts tonight is prepared to say its the whole shooting match. This is now about the republic and the kind of country we want to have