Analysis and discussion of the days top stories and compelling issues from Lawrence ODonnell. Presidency took a giant step toward impeachment. It happened in a courtroom in manhattan when these words were spoken. At the direction of, meaning at the direction of the president of the United States. And when a defendant is Pleading Guilty in court, it is very difficult for the defendant to Say Something more important than the word guilty. Thats usually the most important word a defendant speaks during a guilty plea session. But today in Federal Court in manhattan Michael Cohen said guilty, your honor eight times and hes also said at the direction of twice. And both times he meant at the direction of the president of the United States. And so today donald trump made history by becoming the first president of the United States to be accused under oath in Federal Court of ordering someone to commit a federal crime to win a president ial election. At the direction of. Have to be illegally purchased. Crimes would have to be committed to elect donald trump. Michael cohen is saying that donald trump ordered him to commit these crimes so that donald trump could win the presidency. Tonight on a rally stage in West Virginia donald trump said this. Where is the collusion . You know, theyre still looking for collusion. Where is the collusion . Find some collusion. We want to find the collusion. Heres some collusion for you. Donald trump colluded with Michael Cohen and david pecker in an interstate conspiracy to violate federal Campaign Finance law, and thats not me making that accusation. That is Donald Trumps personal
lawyer and confidant today in Federal Court under oath making that accusation about the president of the United States participating in two federal crimes. For the principal purpose of influencing the election. Bill clinton was impeached for less. Bill clinton was never charged with committing crimes in order to get elected. Bill clinton was never accused of a criminal conspiracy to defraud the American Voter in order to get elected. There are 16 current members of the United States senate who voted to convict bill clinton in his Impeachment Trial and remove him from office for less than what donald trump stands accused of tonight by Michael Cohen and one of those republican senators
was actually a member of the House Of Representatives at the time, and as many of you might recall, in Senate Impeachment trials the prosecutors are actually members of the house judiciary committee. And here is the standard for removal from the office of the presidency. That Lindsey Graham argued for in the clinton Impeachment Trial in the United States senate. So the point im trying to make is you dont even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic. If this body determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role. Because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office. You dont even have to be convicted of a crime. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office. You will not hear Lindsey Graham say that again. Lindsey graham and all of the
republican senators who voted for bill clintons removal from office have proven in the last two years that they did not mean a word that they said when they vote informed remove bill clinton from office. Not a single word of it. They do not care about restoring honor and integrity to the office. But impeachment begins in the House Of Representatives. And if democrats win the house in november, then we are tonight already on the road to Impeachment Hearings in the House Of Representatives. Impeachment hearings that republicans cannot stop. The New York Times is reporting tonight that the white house realizes this and is worried about impeachment as never before. White house correspondent Maggie Haberman tweeted, trump folks are worried about impeachment more than before. The thinking goes like this. This is something tangible, not a theoretical, and it didnt come from mueller. Does not mean it will happen, but this has moved to a different stage in their minds. Today when Michael Cohen pleaded guilty, the prosecutor and the judge made it clear that Michael Cohen will have to pay restitution for the damage he has done with his crimes. But how can Michael Cohen pay restitution to the 65 Million People who voted for Hillary Clinton for president . Or to some, some of the 62 Million People who voted for
donald trump but would not have if they had heard Stormy Daniels story about donald trump telling her that she reminded him of his daughter before he had sex with Stormy Daniels. How do you pay restitution to the 330 Million People who now live in a country where the president was accused today in Federal Court of conspiring to commit two crimes for the principal purpose of influencing the election . There is no Campaign Finance violation in history that comes close to the enormity of the crimes that Michael Cohen confessed to today and accused the president of the United States of ordering him to commit. Leading off our discussion now, john heilemann, cohost and Executive Producer of showtimes the host. Jill winebanks, former assistant prosecutor. They are both msnbc contributors. We knew Michael Cohen had something to say but we did not know we were going to hear the words today right from Michael Cohens mouth at the direction of donald trump. We did not. And i think one of things that theres a thought say about today obviously and were focused on Michael Cohen rightly. Ill say it. It was a good day for the American People and a good day
not because its bad for donald trump but its bad for donald trump. But its good because wheels of justice were running on overdrive today in two different venues where we saw the system is still functioning. The stuff people worry about is are the wheels about to come off the wagon . Theyre not. And were seeing that happen. Its obviously also the worst day in the Trump Presidency since may 17th of last year when bob mueller was appointed. We all thought Michael Cohen was going to flip. Hes been sending clear signals about that. For months all the people close to him all the people reporting
on him, all my reporting, everything has suggested this was going to happen, Something Like this. But youre right. The precision, the clarity of it, the damningness of it, those things you couldnt quite anticipate. And the fullness that hes all in now. And as rachel suggested on the handoff, whats about to happen is clear. Theres some suggestion he may already be commenting with bob mueller. But if hes not already hes going to be. And the reason hes going to be
is theres that Sentencing Hearing Coming In December where bob mueller can walk in to the judge, can walk into the process and say you know, what Michael Cohen has helped us out a lot, hes not going to we dont want him to go to jail for five years, we want him to go to jail for fine months and that is incentive enough for Michael Cohen to give bob mueller absolutely everything he knows about absolutely everything that donald trump has done wrong. Jill, you tracked the Special Prosecutors investigation of a president , worked on that investigation. You know the kind of emotional Roller Coaster that it is, the peaks, the valleys. And so im so interested in the way youre tracking this one tonight. And where you mark this on the road map of where this investigation has been and what the marker what the marker means for where this investigation is now going after the president was accused under oath in Federal Court today of committing two Campaign Finance crimes in order to get elected. Well, its not quite the smoking gun where you have the clear proof of obstruction that
we had in the watergate case, but this is a dramatic day. Its a thrilling day for anybody who wants to see the truth come out. This is clear evidence that the president committed crimes. And that is grounds for impeachment. Theres no question of it. I know he will defend in saying well, this isnt rush. Well, i dont care that its not russia. Its not russiagate, but its still trumpgate. This is crimes by the president of the United States, and it affected the election. That is a terrible thing, is that we have that happen in our country. And your opening is quite correct about the millions of people who might not have voted for him had they known the truth. And we cant get restitution for that. There is no way. But we could get some relief from this presidency. And were joined now by phone by mimi rocah. Shes a former federal prosecutor who worked in the Southern District of new york, the office that is prosecuting Michael Cohen. And mimi, as to smoking guns, in the testimony in court today there came a point as is a standard point in these proceedings where the judge wanted to know from the prosecutor if the prosecutor really does have enough evidence to convict Michael Cohen on all of these counts. And so on the Campaign Violation counts in which the prosecutor also said these crimes were committed at the direction of the candidate, the prosecutor actually told the judge that this is the evidence that they have. Records obtained from an april 9th, 2018 series of Search Warrants on mr. Cohens premises including hard copy documents, seized electronic devices, and then here is maybe the smoking gun. She said, and Audio Recordings made by mr. Cohen. So mimi, there the federal prosecutors today in court
telling the judge that there are Audio Recordings made by mr. Cohen that prove mr. Cohens guilt of these crimes and prove his version of the way he committed these crimes, which is at the direction of donald trump. Right, lawrence. Thats common for the prosecutor to give a summary of evidence like that at the judges request in a plea in the Southern District of new york. And i think the point about the recordings, we heard one of those weeks ago a wi input, it was wo t recor was wit were talk reco t purpo election. Because Yo Qui Recordi o i men encr so lot of the e backed up. He was either going to take fall or sort of cooperate, if you will, sort of a half cooperation. And tell the truth, which he did under oath, which is so important. Thats why i think this feels so different to everyone. Its not just cohen through his lawyer on tv sort of giving their version. But when you go under oath in front of a judge like judge paulie, who i know rau, is an excellent judge and very, very strict and tough on defendants and everybody, and very high standards, this is not someone youre going to go in front of lightly and Say Something under oath. So i think its a very big deal, both what the prosecutor said
and what Michael Cohen said under oath. And Everyone Wants to hear more from Michael Cohen. Lets listen to richard burr. Hes the chairman of the Senate Intelligence committee. The Intelligence Committee now wants to hear more from Michael Cohen. Lets listen to this. What we can say is that we recently reengaged mr. Cohen and his Team FollowingPress Reports that suggested he had advance knowledge of a june 16th meeting between Campaign Officials and russian and a russian lawyer at the trump tower. Mr. Cohen had testified before the committee that he was not aware of any meeting prior to this disclosure in the press last summer. We hope that todays developments in mr. Cohens Plea Agreement will not preclude him from an appearance before our committee as needed for ongoing investigation. John heilemann, not surprisingly, theyd like to hear from him again. Not surprisingly at all. And look, i mean, theres obviously going to be a lot of focus now, there already has been a lot on Michael Cohen. I do think its important, were seeing this reporting coming out, Maggie Haberman, you cited the tweet earlier where she says the white house is now much more focused on impeachment than it was before. And i think its important to understand part of why. They have spent an extraordinary amount of time and effort since may of last year trying to discredit the special counsel,
trying to discredit the deep state, now trying to discredit john brennan. All these people who relate to the thing the president likes to talkb which is the collusion issue, the russia story. Again, we all think thats a legitimate story but theyve spent a lot of Political Energy on that. What they have not spent Political Energy on because its really almost impossible for the president to do this, is to try to discredit Michael Cohen. What are you going to say . These are not hes not bogeyman. Hes not a stranger. Hes not a washington insider. Hes not an establishmentarian. Hes not a member of the deep state. Hes the president s personal lawyer and fixer for more than a decade. And hes now in a position where having spent all that ammunition politically trying to discredit one investigation hes now faced with a much more credible witness whos implicated him in a crime and its a political matter thats a much more dangerous place to be than even the russia inquiry, which obviously has all its own dangers for the president. And joining our discussion now is michael avenatti, attorney for Stormy Daniels. And michael, i think historys going to show that you led us and the investigators to this point today, that Michael Cohen would not be Pleading Guilty possibly to anything today, if you had not taken Stormy Daniels case and showed her the way that she could find her
voice in this, the voice that Michael Cohen now confesses in Federal Court to illegally have tried to silence. Well, you know, i think, lawrence, that my client deserves a lot of gratitude from a lot of people in america for her courage and her fortitude that she has shown over the last five to six months, frankly. You know, today was a very interesting day in the history of the presidency of the United States. This was the first time that you had an individual stand up in a court of law and basically point the finger at the president credibly and claim that the president was a coconspirator in criminal conduct. I think were in the Second Quarter of a fourquarter game. I think theres a lot of Additional Information thats going to come down the pike. And the problem for the president hes got a lot of problems. But one of the problems is for donald trump is that so much of this now is out of his control because you have Paul Manafort and Michael Cohen. Theyre going to be looking to protect themselves and their families. Theyre not going to care a lot about what donald trump has to say. And i think theyre both going to disclose quite a bit. Rudy giuliani issued a Written Statement tonight saying there is no allegation of any wrongdoing against the president in the governments charges against mr. Cohen. It is clear that, as the prosecutor noted, mr. Cohens actions reflect a part of lies and dishonesty over a
significant period of time. Your reaction to Rudy Giuliani. You know, lawrence, it just gets more comical by the day. I mean, the truth isnt the truth. This is if you look at the statement, its a parsed statement. Hes playing word games relating to government charges. The American People can read these documents that are available online. Youve noted them tonight. Its clear as day what Michael Cohen has said, that the president told him and conspired him to do these acts. And the sequence in the courtroom today, the prosecutor said it first. The prosecutor made a Presentation Saying that this was done at the direction of the candidate and Michael Cohen said it even more emphatically with his own words when it was his turn. Youre absolutely right, lawrence. And i sat in this chair that johns in on at least two if not three occasions on your show, and you showed the Air Force One tape of the president of the United States standing on the peoples plane and when he was asked by the Associated Press reporter if he knew anything about the payment he denied all knowledge. And heres the kicker. He pointed everybody to his personal attorney, Michael Cohen, and told them go ask Michael Cohen the facts. Michael cohen will tell you the facts. Well, guess what . In that courtroom here today weve learned the facts according to Michael Cohen and now Rudy Giuliani and the president are going to say no,
no, dont ask Michael Cohen the facts because he doesnt know what hes talking about. And i want to go to a very important point that the prosecutor made. I mentioned it earlier in the program. About the evidence that the prosecution has to prove Michael Cohens guilt on all of these counts. And on the two counts involving donald trump ordering him to commit the Campaign Finance crime, they said that their evidence includes Audio Recordings made by mr. Cohen. You have been saying for a long time that there are a lot more Michael Cohen recordings and that they are a lot more problematic for the president. So is that an indication that the federal government, the prosecutors have recordings of Michael Cohen and donald trump discussing these two particular crimes . I think it is. And i also think that theres additional recordings i know theres additional recordings relating to conversations that Michael Cohen had with Keith Davidson relating to these two payments. Theres a lot of recordings out there. And Keith Davidson was Stormy Daniels original lawyer, and he was involved in the other payoff through the national enquirer. Thats correct. Keith davidson served as counsel for miss mcdougal and for the counsel for miss daniels before i took over her case. And so i think that this notation is a reference to those recordings. Lawrence, again, were in the Second Quarter of a fourquarter game. This president s in trouble, and were coming for him because im going to take his deposition under oath. Were going to get michael the president s deposition. The president s deposition. Im going to get Michael Cohens deposition under oath. And im anxious to disclose all of this evidence to the American People so they can determine whos been lying to them and whos been telling the truth. And thats because your civil suit to obtain Stormy Daniels release from the nondisclosure agreement is still active and thats where the deposition would be. Is Michael Cohen to your knowledge cooperating with Robert Mueller . I do not know that, the answer to that question, but i know hes cooperating with sdny. And why today did he go into court and plead guilty without an actual sentencing agreement
already obtained or any real agreement obtained as to what his future is . Theres no promises about his future in this agreement. If h exte so a lot how to of Cooperation Th T so the so thats why n writing cooperatio but the p never entered this d did not have s that he was going to provide information. Now, it depends what they do with that information. They can take the information in and ultimately not do anything with it. Where would we be tonight if Stormy Daniels never found you as a lawyer and if you never found the way to make her story public, to bring her on to interviews like 60 minutes and the interviews that you have done to make the focus on exactly how this nondisclosure agreement was executed . Where would we be if Stormy Daniels and you had never come forward . Well, lawrence, i dont think we would be in this exact spot. But you know, you dont want to speculate as to where we would be. Im going to let you and others speculate as to that. I think were in a better place because of the courage and fortitude of Stormy Daniels. Were going to have to go to a break. Michael avenatti, Jill Winebanks, john heilemann, mimi rocah, thank you for starting us off on this very important night. And when we come back, details of the conviction against President Trumps former Campaign ManagerPaul Manafort on the same day that his personal lawyer pleads guilty to eight federal crimes. Paul manafort is convicted by a jury of eight federal crimes. Where does that leave donald trump tonight . As donald trump contemplates the future of his presidency. I dont care where we go and i dont care what we do just take me with you there are roadside attractions. And then theres our worldfamous onroad attraction. The 2018 glc. Lease the glc300 for just 459 a month
at your local mercedesbenz dealer. Mercedesbenz. The best or nothing. But lets be honest, nobody likes dealing with insurance. Which is why esurance hired me, dennis quaid, as their spokesperson because apparently, im highly likable. See, they know its confusing. I literally have no idea what im getting, dennis quaid. Thats why theyre making it simple, man in cafe. And more affordable. Thank you, dennis quaid. Youre welcome. Thats a prop apple. Id tell you more, but i only have 30 seconds. So heres a dramatic shot of their tagline so youll remember it. Esurance. Its surprisingly painless. The former chairman of the Trump Campaign is trying to sleep tonight in a federal prison contemplating the possibility of spending every night for the rest of his life in a federal prison. 69yearold Paul Manafort heard the word guilty eight times today from a federal jury in virginia, who remained undecided on ten other counts Paul Manafort faced. Manafort was convicted of every category of crime he was accused of. Tax fraud, bank fraud, and failure to report a Foreign Bank Account. But the jury was undecided on other similar counts. Paul manafort faces already a maximum of 80 years in prison for todays convictions, and more immediately he faces a second trial in Federal Court in
washington, d. C. In a courthouse where jurors are thought to be less sympathetic to accused whitecollar criminals like Paul Manafort and where the judge will not be taking every opportunity to try to help the manafort defense as reaganappointed judge thomas ellis did on a daily basis in this first manafort trial. The typical Public Comment from Defense Lawyers after a defeat like this one today for Paul Manafort includes the mandatory promise to continue to fight the case on appeal, fight it all the way. But that is not what we heard from Paul Manaforts lawyer today. He would like to thank judge ellis for granting him a fair trial, thank the jury for their very long and hardfought deliberations. He is evaluating all of his options at this point. Evaluating all of his options. That includes how much money does he want to spend on his next criminal trial, which hes even more likely to lose than the one he just lost. Another option is of course what does Paul Manafort know that he can tell Special ProsecutorRobert Mueller in order to avoid spending the rest of his life in prison . Joining us now, gene rossi, a former federal prosecutor and former assistant u. S. Attorney in that Eastern District of virginia where the trial was held, and ken dilanian, intelligence and National Security reporter for nbc news. He was outside the courthouse today as the jury was returning that verdict. And ken dilanian, tell us about that anticipation today, the
questions that the jury had sent indicated a little bit of confusion today of were they asking the judge about what happens if they cant reach a verdict on just one count . And then shortly after that it turns out the jury comes back with the eight convictions. Yeah, lawrence, now we know what they meant is for any of the counts that theyre deadlocked on they were asking the judge essentially what do we do and how do we fill out the jury form and how does it affect the final verdict . And it turns out they were deadlocked on ten counts. And the judge asked them to go back and distribute and they did that for about four hours and apparently they could not reach consensus. And i think what this tells us, a couple of things. One, manaforts lawyers actually did a pretty good job. In the face of overwhelming evidence and a terrific presentation by the prosecution, a powerful presentation, manaforts lawyers were able to raise some doubts in the minds of some jurors on 10 of the 18 counts. But thats really irrelevant for Paul Manafort because hes a convicted felon, or will be when the judge passes sentence. Eight counts of Felony Convictions of tax fraud, bank fraud, and failure to declare a Foreign Bank Account is a victory for the prosecution. No other way to look at it. A huge vindication for Robert Mueller and his team in their first test in a major trial. And the other thing we can say i think is that this jury did not appear to be swayed by any of the noise, any of Donald Trumps comments. Honestly, we dont know whether the jurors were looking at outside News Coverage or whether they heard this stuff. But if they did, it didnt seem to affect them because as you said they convicted on each part of the three tranches, the three categories of charges. And they appeared to do so thoughtfully. Some counts persuaded jurors more than others clearly, but at
the end of the day Paul Manafort is facing some seven to nine years in prison just on these charges alone. Gene rossi, your reaction to the result today and what you think Paul Manaforts lawyer meant when he said he is evaluating all his options. I think this was a tremendous victory for Robert Muellers office. I worked closely with two attorneys on the Manafort Trial Team for the government. And i know pretty well three of the Defense Attorneys for Paul Manafort. And ive got to say that Paul Manaforts defense team did a fantastic job. Trials are like poker and they had a very terrible hand and they did the best they could. Let me talk about the options. The one option of course is to
do a picketts charge, to appeal this case to the Supreme Court of the United States and to go into d. C. And just to fight, fight, fight and just hope for a pardon, a commutation, or an acquittal and a reversal in the 4th circuit. Thats not going to happen. The most likely option i would recommend if i were his attorney is to cooperate. What you have now are two battles still pending. One, you have the Mistrial Counts that academically, theoretically could be brought by the prosecutors in edva. Thats one battle. You obviously have the trial in d. C. So i would go to the prosecutors and i would say this. I cant fight anymore. What can you offer me . And i think the prosecutors would say we will dismiss the charges in d. C. , maybe have him plead to A Thousand And One or a minor charge. We wont retry the counts in edva and the prosecutors will say okay, lets talk about the trump tower meeting, lets talk about the republican platform when you, Paul Manafort, helped negotiate a removal or an amendment of something having to do with russia, lets talk about what happened in august and september possibly. Theres a lot of things that could be given to the prosecutors. And heres something that nobody has talked about since last week. There was a sidebar when rick gates was testifying. It is now under seal. It will become unsealed if the prosecutors dont go forward on the retrial. That sidebar i based on my experience was this. Rick gates is cooperating bigtime about the campaign, about the transition, about the trump organization, and im sure Paul Manafort has the same information times five. So those are the options that kevin downey, whos a fantastic
attorney, did a great job, those are the options that i think he was talking about. Gene rossi, ken dilanian, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Up next, the jury hearing Paul Manaforts next trial. As we just discussed, could be even more difficult to convince of his innocence than the jury that convicted him today. ford chime its the Ford Summer Sales event and now is the best time to buy. You ready for this, junior . Yeah, i think i can handle it. No pressure. Thats just my favorite boat. Boom. laughs make summer go right with ford, americas bestselling brand. And get our best deal of the summer zero percent financing for sixty months on f150. Get zero percent financing for 60 months plus 2,800 bonus cash on a 2018 f150 xlt equipped with 2. 7l ecoboost. Your Digestive System has billions of bacteria but life can throw them off balance. Realign yourself with align probiotic. And try new align gummies with prebiotics and probiotics to help support digestive health. It is such a good time to dance it is such a good time to [ laughing ] scoobidoo Doobidoo Scoobidoo doobidoo [ Goose Honking ] [ laughing ] a bad day on the road still beats a good one off it. Progressive helps keep you out there. To prison. And the only thing the other one is sure of in his future is that he will play golf this weekend. Paul manafort has less than a month to decide what to do about his next criminal trial, one which all legal analysts agree will be even more difficult for Paul Manafort to win than the trial that he just lost. September 17th is the day Paul Manafort is scheduled to go to trial for the second time. And today the Special Prosecutor filed a motion to set the sentencing date for Michael Flynn on that very same day, September 17th, in that very same courthouse. So tonight Paul Manafort is surely wondering how much longer he should pay his very highpriced Defense Lawyers for trials he might not be able to win. Paul manafort has to be wondering whether he should save that money, plead guilty in return for reduced prison time, and of course tell the Special Prosecutor everything he knows about the president of the United States. Paul manafort must also be wondering how donald trump might be able to help him now. And donald trump has to be wondering the same thing. Should he pardon Paul Manafort . Or might the president just fire his attorney general, fire his Deputy Attorney general, and fire Robert Mueller before September 17th . We will take up all of those questions next with jon meacham, john heilemann, and Jill Winebanks. Know what . No, what . I just switched to geico and got more. More . Got a company i can trust. Thats a heck of a lot more. Over 75 years of great savings and service. You cant argue with more. Why would ya . Geico. Expect great savings and a whole lot more. Everything was so fresh in the beginning. But that plug quickly faded. Luckily theres new febreze plug. It cleans away odors and freshens for 1200 hours. Breathe happy with new febreze plug. Jushis local miracle ear t at helped andrew hear more of the joy in her voice. Just one hearing test is all it took for him to hear more of her laugh. And less of the Background Noise around him. For helen, just one visit to her local miracleear is all it took to learn how she can share more moments with her daughter. Just one free hearing test could help you hear more. Laughter. Music. Life. Call now for your free hearing test from an Industry Leader miracleear. Bexsero is a vaccine to help prevent meningitis b in 1025 year olds. Even if meningitis b is uncommon, thats not a chance were willing to take. Meningitis b is different from the meningitis most teens were probably vaccinated against when younger. Were getting the word out against meningitis b. Our teens are getting bexsero. Bexsero should not be given if you had a severe allergic reaction after a previous dose. Most common side effects are pain, redness or hardness at the injection site; muscle pain; fatigue; headache; nausea; and joint pain. Bexsero may not protect all individuals. Tell your healthcare professional if youre pregnant or if you have received any other meningitis b vaccines. Ask your healthcare professional about the risks and benefits of bexsero and if vaccination with bexsero is right for your teen. Moms, we cant wait. He has the power to pardon Paul Manafort, but he would be
screaming to the world, i am guilty. And he would so undermine the credibility of his office that it would be a disaster for the nation and it would very possibly be an obstruction of justice. Joining our discussion now, jon meacham, president ial historian and the author of the bestselling book The Soul Of America the battle for our better angels. Hes also an msnbc contributor. John heilemann and Jill Winebanks are back with us. And jon meacham, we need the steady hand of a historian to guide us through these choppy waters tonight. I want to show on the screen to you and the audience what is a photograph of what will be the front page of the Print Version of the New York Times. The New York Times tweeted this out tonight with the headline, bold headline saying Pleading Guilty, Cohen Implicates president. And then that subheadline,
quoting what the prosecutor has said about this crime, in coordination with and at the direction of a candidate for federal office. Jon, where are we tonight . Well, i think we are one of the things the trump era has done, as you know so well, is it has now taken us beyond superlatives. I googled worst day of Trump Presidency earlier and got Something Like 600 different candidates for it. But i do think given that the legal time is now catching up with political time, and that always the wheels of justice always move more slowly than the press, than a lot of the people who are deeply engaged in the conversation. And this is rather like the third week of june 1973, when john dean went to the senate and
began his testimony. Its not un, like it seems to me, the second week of july in the same year when Alexander Butterfield revealed that there was a white house taping system. Its the kind of moment that you can begin to see a genuine inflection point. And if the president is implicated, whats going to be fascinating to see Going Forward is to what extent does the Legal Process and the political process track one another. Because the legal system may be closing in on the president. Unclear to what extent the political system will also close in on him given the loyalty of the base. And jill, you worked through those historical points in the watergate investigation that jon just mentioned. And so what are the options that President Trump has . Pardon Paul Manafort. What does that achieve for him . What does firing jeff sessions, Special Prosecutor, what does that achieve for him now if he chooses to do that . Well, it was a very dramatic day, and hearing the words at the direction of did bring back the memories that jon has just mentioned. A pardon is a dangerous thing. It is a totally Unlimited Power of the president as long as hes not paid for it. President ford pardoned nixon while he was still looking at the fact he was no longer a sitting president and he could easily be indicted. He got pardoned for all crimes he might ever be charged with. We were, therefore, unable to indict him. So the president could go ahead with the pardon, but in this case, he would have to pardon him, not just for the crimes that have been charged and in the case of manafort to which he was convicted, but he would have to pardon him for Contempt Of Court for failing to testify because otherwise he has no fifth amendment privilege left. Both of those men would have to testify anyway. If they refuse to testify, they would be guilty of Contempt Of Court. They would have to be repeatedly pardoned for Contempt Of Court. It doesnt actually help the
president a lot. And one thing we know about President Trump is that his selfinterest takes top priority and if its not going to help him, he may not act to pardon anyone. And it would, at some point, get the republicans riled up enough if he pardons for a crime and pardons for refusing to testify over and over again that could get the republicans on board well, impeachment is in the air tonight. Certainly among democrats in the United States senate these crimes helped trump win the election. Any effort to pardon Michael Cohen or Paul Manafort in and of itself would be a gross assault on the rule of law and constitute high crimes. He wants to fire jeff sessions,
bob mueller, he wants to Paul Manafort. He wants to fire you, too. All of us. [ laughter ] and pardon Michael Cohen and pardon Paul Manafort. Pardon anyone who might testify against the president. What can he do . He can, essential, he can, as jill said he has the ability to pardon. But this is the thing about johns point that is right. In a precise way the rules of justice or timing of justice and the legal system and politics will come to a head now. Because the president has got to make a decision about whether hes going to pardon Paul Manafort in a time frame almost certainly before november and the election. And what does that do to the
politics of the midterm elections . Does that generate enthusiasm in his wanted base . Which is as we discussed a little bit of a shinny object. Can they be more enthusiastic . Does it gain him anything there. Does it just cause the voters who really matter in the election, which is largely democrats who are already stirred up, but particularly a bunch of collegeeducated women in the suburbs who kind of vacillate between republican and democrat who arent necessarily committed dependents africanamericans women in big cities. Does it generate more outrage and anger on their part. Does Pardoning Manafort ensure the democrats take control of the house. Its a terrible political conundrum he faces because of the calendar. John, weve seen two extraordinary things in two presidencies in a row. If you go back to lbj and nixon. Lyndon johnson, who seemed to be the most powerful incumbent president and the wilest politician to be in the oval
office deciding not to run for reelection. Forces closed in on him and he dropped out. The next president ends up resigning the president of presidency eventually richard nixon. Tonight it is not that hard to imagine either one of those things in the Trump Presidency. Its not. And, you know, one of the things that is so interesting about our divided country is from 1960 to 1980, we functionally had five fouryear president s. We lost one to assassination, one to vietnam, one to watergate, one, really, in the political cause of the pardon when president ford lost to President Carter And carter to reagan. There was a choppy period there. Interestingly, given our
divisions, weve only had one oneterm president since 1980. But this is one of the things that, you know, john knows so well. Everything about trump takes all the buoys, all the sign posts, everything that is defined the way we think about american politics and blown them up. And my own sense is that hes got 30 to 35 of the country with nixon down to about low 20s at the very end. Joe mccarthys Approval Rating was 34 three months after he was censured. You can get 34 of americans to follow anybody. What i think is going to be interesting is that there are going to be two different stories here. I think theres the manafort
story and then the cohen story and the president makes the manafort story from front center. And the manafort story goes to the meeting in trump tower with the russians if manafort cooperates. Thats the big question. We have to leave it there. Thank you all for joining our discussion tonight on this important night. I appreciate it. Tonights last word is next. Can develop low white blood cell counts, which may cause serious infections that can lead to death. Before taking ibrance, tell your doctor if you have fever, chills, or other signs of infection, liver or kidney problems, are pregnant, breastfeeding, or plan to become pregnant. Common side effects include low red blood cell and low platelet counts, infections, tiredness, nausea, sore mouth, abnormalities in liver blood tests, diarrhea, Hair Thinning or loss, vomiting, rash, and loss of appetite. Alice calls it her new normal because a lot has changed, but a lot hasnt. Ask your doctor about ibrance. The 1 prescribed fdaapproved oral Combination Treatment for hr her2 mbc