Transcripts For MSNBCW The Last Word With Lawrence ODonnell 20140723

Court. When this exchange is up and running, millions oh of people will get tax breaks. Breaking news regarding the Affordable Care act. Two different rulings today. Two different federal Appeals Courts reached the opposite conclusion. Heres the issue. Tax breaks. Tax subsidies. Specifically the part that makes the Affordable Care act actually affordable. Today, the court of appeals ruled no, the federal court cant give those subsidies. A second court reached a conflicting opinion, one that rules the opposite. What does this mean for obamacare . Heres the problem. Both of the Appeals Court did agree on this. Congress did not do a very good job making its intentions clear. The law is ambiguous. Were talki ining about sents making a difference here. Proofreading is an important thing. Heres the issue. The halanguage it is what it is. When you look at the totality of this law, it was designed to provide a subsidy for health care. It is obvious what the congressional intent was. Theres the whole other issue which is the politics in this. Here come the torches and the pitchforks. Traditionally Congress Tries to work out the kinks in the law. You might think this would change things but you would be wrong. One of the questions considered by both of these courts was, what did president obama mean when he said this when this exchange is up and running, millions of people will get tax breaks, which represents the largest middle class tax cut for health care in history. Thats what this reform is about. The courts also had to decide what did Senate Finance Committee Chairman max baucus mean when he said this americans will be able to count on the Health Care Coverage that they buy, and tax credits will help to assure that all americans can afford Quality Health insurance. Two federal i peels courts considered those statement in two challenges brought against the subsidies in the Affordable Care act, brought by states that opted not to create state Health Insurance exchanges because the Health Care Law mandates that everyone buy insurance. Residents of the states without state Health Insurance exchanges have to buy it through a federally established Insurance Exchange or then be subject to the penalties in the Affordable Care act. In both cases, the plaintiffs claimed without subsidies, their income would exempt them from the individual mandate and the penalty. And they claimed that congress only intended subsidies for insurance purchased on the state exchanges, not insurance purchased on the federal exchange. In a 21 decision, the d. C. Circuit court of appeals agreed with the plaintiffs. The tax credit is available only to subsidize the purchase of insurance on an exchange established by the state. A federal exchange is not an exchange established by the state. And the bill does not authorize the irs to provide tax credits for insurance purchased on the federal exchanges. But the Fourth Circuit court of appeals, virginia facing the same questions unanimously agreed that regardless of what Congress Actually wrote in one particular line of the legislation, lawmakers clearly intended for people in every state to be eligible for the subsidies. With only 16 staterun exchange currently in place, the economic frame work supporting the act would crumble if credits were unavailable. Further more, without an exception to the individual mandate, millions more americans unable to purchase insurance without the credits would be forced to pay a penalty that Congress Never envisioned imposing on them. The irs rule avoids both these unforeseen and undesirable consequences and there by advances the true purpose and means of the act. Today, the white house answered the question of the Health Care Laws intent. The law was designed to make Health Care Affordable through tax credits and it is working. Joining me now are julian epstein, former counsel for house. Julian, we need the lawyers here. They found a sentence, one line in these 1500 pages where they can try to linchpin this decision saying that oh, yeah, clearly there was no intent here for subsidies through the federal exchanges. There was one provision in the entire statute where the eligibility of federal exchanges for tax subsidies is implicit. There are six provisions elsewhere in the provision where the eligibility of federal exchanges is explicit. The cbo scoring contemplates it will be eligible for tax subsidies. Its predicated on the idea some will be getting tax subsidies under the federal exchanges. The entire premise of the statute, the central portion of Community Rating and the guarantied provisions are all premised on the idea that everybody participates, including if you have to go through the federal system. Theres a central provision that everybody learns in law School Called the chevron principle. If an agency has to interpret a congressional statute and theres something ambiguous, the federal agency basically can make the determination and thats what the Fourth Circuit said. The d. C. Circuit, when it comes up for a review, theyre almost assuredly going to go the same way. The bottom line is, i dont think the circuit also be in conflict with this. And i dont think this this was the d. C. Decision was a decision of three judges. What that means is it now goes to the full Appeals Court, and your prediction on the full Appeals Court seven democratic appointed judges, four republican appointed judges. I think its almost certain the law will be upheld there, in which case there will not be a conflict between the Fourth Circuit and the d. C. Circuit. I think the Supreme Court will decline to take this, because the Supreme Court doesnt want to take this case. I dont think they want this case, because its a nowin situation for them. If they are to invalidate the law, they would do incredible harm to the court, which was a central thing Justice Roberts was concerned about. I think there are years and years of decisions that Justice Scalia and others have signed their names to that basically endorse the chevron principle, which is you defer to the agencies if theres ambiguity. But i dont think there is that much ambiguity. Theyve got to agree to go en banc. In this case, this is so important, and i think so outrageous that they will want to take it and overturn it. Here we have the examining rhetoric outside of the actual specific legislative hang wage of the bill. They examine that statement that max baucus made on the senate floor, which could not have been clearer. He used the phrase all americans. The president s rhetoric on this could not have been clearer about the intent. What they cant find is a Single Member of congress at any point pointing to this and saying, why are we not providing subsidies for people under the federal exchange . Not one person ever raised this in congress. You know, this is Like Congress made a typo and somebody really wants to get to this results says i caught you in a typo. I think when you rush legislation like this, one of the penalties you pay is when the democrats did it, there will be lines that need a few more words that they dont have, because its not done by the Expert Committee staff. When i first heard this, i thought this is an outrage. Judges are supposed to look at a law and look at the congressional intent. And nobody, nobody in this city at that point, at any moment thought that there was any doubt that the federal exchanges were put there because some states wouldnt want to establish them. But the whole wall falls apart. Every piece of testimony in every committee not just assumed this, but specified this. The cbo analysis of the bill says this is the way it will work, which if anybody thought that was a controversial item, that would be raised. There is one place in the statute where its implicit, its not clear that the federal exchanges are eligible for the tax subsidies. But theres half a dozen other provisions where the linkage is clear. Even if you accepted the conservative view of this, that its ambiguous, its a close call, the time honored principle that the conservatives on the Supreme Court have all signed their names to is that the federal agencies have the ability to make that determination. So the reason the Supreme Court doesnt take it is not just because the politics are bad for them, not just because if they take it and they were to invalidate the law, they are going to take 5 million to 7 million americans off Health Insurance and deny tax cuts for lowincome americans and raise premiums for up to 6 Million People that could lose their Health Insurance. Those politics are bad. It totally contradicts the previous positions. So they dont want to have to deal with that question versus placating the conservatives. I dont think the Supreme Court is going to take this case. I think this is going to be over by fall. Last word on this. If you wonder which side of politics judicial activism is on, it aint on the side of the liberals anymore. Thank you both for joining me. Great to see you. Coming up, former new york city mayor Michael Bloomberg is, at this hour, flying to tel aviv tonight on israels airline to prove it is safe this after u. S. Airlines stopped flight there is because of rocket fire. And later, the New York Daily News has leaks from an nypd Police Report that ended with the death of a man. And in the rewrite tonight, one of fox news favorite comedian is confused about the words liberal and conservative. For fr. Get complete protection. Because the best moments in life arent experienced from the sidelines. Now theres Nothing Holding you back. This is nexium level protection™. The 1 prescribed acidblocking brand. Now without a prescription for frequent heartburn. Get complete protection. Nexium level protection™. [ male announcer ] if you cant stand the heat, get off the test track. Get the mercedesbenz youve been burning for at the summer event, going on now at your authorized mercedesbenz dealer. But hurry, offers end july 31st. Share your summer moments in your mercedesbenz with us. Mayor adam oneil of bell haven, North Carolina, is 160 miles into his 273mile walk to washington, d. C. To protest his state governments refusal to accept the Medicaid Expansion under the Affordable Care act. He stopped in richmond today and talked with Governor Terry mccauliff about the need for the Medicaid Expansion. The governor is trying to expand medicaid in virginia. The mayor began walking on july 14th after the hospital in his town closed because North Carolina did not take the medicare Medicaid Expansion and the funding that comes with it. He expects to arrive in washington, d. C. By next week. Up next, u. S. Airlines stopped flights to tel aviv today after rocket fire threatened the airport, came close to the airport. But that is not stopping former new york city mayor Michael Bloomberg. He intends to nigh to tel aviv tonight on israels airline to show that the airports should be kept open. 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Secretary of state john kerry, who is now in cairo and working with egypts foreign minister to urge hamas to accept a ceasefire deal, spoke with the israeli Prime Minister earlier this evening about the faas decision to stop all american flights. A state Department Spokesperson released this statement. Among the issues raised by the Prime Minister was the faas notice today about ben gorian airport. The notice was issued to protect american citizens and american carriers. The only consideration in issuing the notice was the safety and security of our citizens. The faa continues to monitor and evaluate the situation. Airline Security Experts called the decision prudent in light of the todowning of the malaysian flight. Former new york city mayor Michael Bloomberg issued this statement tonight. This evening i will be flying to tel aviv to show solidarity with the israeli people and to demonstrate it is safe to fly in and out of israel. It is the best protected airport in the world and el al flights have been regularly flying in and out of it. The faa will reassess the security situation at the airport and has told airlines here in the u. S. It will make a decision by noon wednesday on whether to keep the flight ban in place. Nbcs Martin Fletcher provided this context. Israelis are saying we cant give back west bank because the hills overlooking the airport, from there people can fire rockets at the airport and stop air traffic. So here we see that argument has been a bit outdated by the rocket threat from gaza. S of tonight, the death toll, more than 600 palestinians killed. Among them 75 children, according to the Palestinian Health ministry. 29 israelis have been killed in the conflict, and one israeli soldier is now missing. Joining me now is steven cook of the council on Foreign Relations and anthony roman, a former commercial pilot and flight instructor. Steven, first of all, the importance of commerce travel in and out of bengorian airport. Bengorian is israels only Major International airport. Sit the height of the tourist season in israel. This is a major issue for the israelis. But as someone who is a frequent travelers overseas, i appreciate the faas prudence. All ha mals 23450e8ds to to do win here is to bag an airliner with a rocket. Its unfortunate for the israelis that this issue is being politicized. The faas decision isnt the safety of the flying public. Michael bloomberg makes the point that its the safest airport in the world. What it is, its the most security conscious airport in the world, thats for sure. And those have flown in and out of there know the security that that airline in particular runs and the examination it does to each passenger getting on planes there. What is your assessment . The mayor is absolutely correct. It is one of the safest and most secure airports in the world. Its patrolled by the israeli army. The Israeli Special Operations Division of their customs unit. Its patrolled by the Israeli Air Force and protected by the iron dome antimissile system. However, today, all of that security was breached. Now, International Airports are contained within protected air space. What we mean by that is we have a 40mile diameter air space that rises to 10,000 feet. And within that air Traffic Controllers maintain positive directional control of all aircraft maintaining anticollision services. Anything that occurs untoward within that air space is a major breach of safety. A rocket or artillery shell, even if its one, poses a serious risk to all aircraft. So i do believe that the faas decision was prudent. I also think it was conservative in that they only made the ban for 24 hours, and will reevaluate it based, i am sure, on the israelis ramping up their already terrific security. Steven, to have this now thrown into the negotiating mix, heres secretary kerry trying to work on the larger issues and the Prime Minister saying look, this airport is the heart beat of our economy in so many ways. This is an extremely risky thing. How much is it the economics of that airport being constricted like that, and then the principle to the israelis that this is a victory for the other side to shut down any of these flights . Its certainly an economic issue but its a larger principle here. Thats why i dont think secretary kerry is going to get very far. The israeles cannot allow their major airport be restricted for 24 hours without answering and making hamas pay for this act. I think the israelis will ramp up their military operations in an effort to demonstrate to hamas that there is a price to be paid for this. Anthony, what do you think the faa has to see to reopen American Airline or traffic into that airport . I believe theyre going to have to see a ramping up of the antimissile defense system. And i believe that steven is absolutely right, that the israelis will have to respond with even more aggressive force against hamas in order to ensure that their offensive capabilities, marly in the area of the airport where commerce is so critical, is diminished. For example, 14 million passengers per year pass through bengorian airport. 13 million of which are international travelers. The israelis cannot afford to hand a minor victory to hamas in this regard. Thank you both for joining us tonight. Coming up, the latest on the investigation into the death of the man who died in nypd custody last week. Olay total effects nourishing vitamins and seven beautiful benefits in one. For youngerlooking skin. Olay. Your best beautiful. I will never choose between uv protection and beauty again. New olay total effects now with spf 30. Uva uvb protection and antiaging in one. Youthful skin with a mission. 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Check your speed. See how fast your internet can be. Switch now and add voice and tv for 34. 90. Comcast business. Built for business. New information into the investigation about the tet of a man at the hands of new York City Police officers. Though new york city mayor bill de blasio and the Police Commissioner have both said it looks as though 43yearold eric garner was put in a choke hold, the New York Daily News has a report saying an internal report on the incident doesnt use the phrase choke hold at all. Eric garners funeral is scheduled tomorrow in brooklyn. He was pronounced dead on arrival at a Staten Island hospital on thursday after he was arrested for suspicion of selling loose cigarettes. Here is the video of that arrest, the arrest that ended eric garners life. Dont touch me. Dont touch me. I cant breathe i cant breathe what you just heard eric garner say is, every time you see me, you want to mess with me, im tired of me. He said, dont touch me, dont touch me, and then, i cant breathe. You heard him say that repeatedly. The choke hold you just witnessed being used on eric garner has been banned by the nypd for 20 years. Other video shows eric garner lying motionless on the ground for at least seven minutes as Police Officers and emergency medical workers make no attempt to resuscitate him. Four emergency medical workers have now been suspended without pay. And the nypd officer who used the choke hold on eric garner has been put on modified assignment and stripped of his badge and gun. According to the New York Daily News, excepts from the report include one officer at the scene saying that garner did not appear in great distress. And another claiming that garners condition did not seem serious and that he did not appear to get worse. The daily news also says that the nypd report points out that four of the officers involved in the incident, including the one who took down eric garner with that choke hold, were not interviewed before the preliminary report because of a possible criminal investigation. Earlier today, commissioner bratton confirmed that there will be a criminal investigation and predicted that the case will be reviewed by federal prosecutors. Commissioner bratton clearly has reason to believe that this use of a choke hold in violation of nypd rules, was not an isolated incident. It is my belief that were going to have to do more than just a review of Staten Island. The department does need to do a lot more, a lot more in the area of training. They talked about a review of all of the training that this department provides to its personnel. Specifically focusing on initially use of force. I would anticipate that coming out of this effort that they will be a retraining of every member of the new York City Police department in the weeks, months and potentially years ahead. Joining me now is jim cavanaugh, an msnbc Law Enforcement analyst and former police officer, and atf special agent and Mark Thompson from x sirius radio. Jim, i cannot think of an instance in which the immediate aftermath of a situation like this i have heard a leader of a department this big say that this incident has forced him to consider retraining for every single officer under his control. Lawrence, bill bratton is a strong leader. Hes an outfront leader. You got reports from sergeants on the scene saying they didnt mention a choke hold. But the two most important people in the department, the commissioner and the mayor in the city, the mayor mentioned the choke hold yesterday or the day before. So theyre up front talking about it. Theyre not wanting to deny the obvious. Theyre taking it on. I agree with you, hes taking on the training issue. I would add, though, that not only use of force is necessary, but whats also necessary is street verbal negotiation skills so these things dont escalate, and leadership training for sergeants. Whos in charge of this mess . Who is going to step up and back this whole thing down before it goes this way . Whos going to step in and take the handcuffs off mr. Garner so he can get some medical attention . Who is going to order people to give him medical attention . We need some street sergeants. Eisenhower said the sergeant is the army. Its the same way for the police service. The sergeants have to take charge at the scene. No one stepped up at that scene. Mark, i want you to listen to Something Else that the Police Commissioner said today. He was asked if he thought race was involved in this incident. Lets listen to his answer. I personally dont think that raise was a factor in the incident involving this tragic death. Our effort, as we go forward with our training, review of our training that our officers understand the importance of consistent policing, no matter whether the person is black, asian, latino, white, its the equal enforcement of the law. Mark, your reaction to that . Well, frankly that is a bit concerning. On the one part, the first half of his statement, theyre going to retrain officers in terms of use of force. Its undermined by the following statement, that he does not think race is involved. I dont know how anyone can think that this happens far too frequently to people of color, and to africanamericans. Thats one of the reasons im here at the naacp convention, a resolution was passed today about National Legislation in congress, if they would take up legislation to deal with use of force standards around the country. Other civil rights organizations, including the reverend al sharpton have spoken out against this. This happens far too frequently within our community. I appreciate jims input. I would add to that i had the privilege of being asked, when i lived in washington, d. C. , to teach a class at the d. C. Police academy called the historical relationship between africanamericans and Law Enforcement. Its not just a question of dealing with the policy or the particular application of use of force. But there must be a conversation about nypds relationship with the community, all of these Law Enforcement agencys relationship with the community. It has to be one that is much more clear and much more understanding. And much more supportive of a community and not one that is so hostile to a community. I want to listen to Something Else that commissioner bratton said today responsive to what jim was saying, his first point about the discretion that Police Officers have and the judgment they have to bring to situations like this. Lets listen to that. Theres a lot of emphasis going to be focused on an officers im not looking for arrests or summons. Im not looking for reports. What im looking for is quality, not quantity, and by quality i mean having a problem successfully addressed. If it requiring arrest, fine. Im not measuring success by number of arrests but does crime go down . He specifically said hes not hooking for, you know, numbers on stop and frisk, for example. Thats something that we have all thought about and have been opposed to. One of the reasons the new mayor was elected is because of his opposition to stop and frisk. Again, another example of far too much contact between Law Enforcement and unfortunately is often hostile. Of course, not always as hostile as this case with mr. Garner. But suspicious enough. It almost seems just being an africanamerican or being a person of color makes you guilty of suspicion. And then the value of human life in cases such as these. What would have happened if anybody else had done this . This could affect anybody. This could have done anything to anybody. But eric garner did not deserve a death sentence for what he was alleged to have done. Jim cavanaugh and Mark Thompson, thank you both for joining me. Coming up, how a liberal should answer charges of being a liberal. Thats in the rewrite. son oh no. Can you fix it, dad . Yeah, i can fix that. dad i wanted a car that could handle anything. I fixed it dad thats why i got a subaru legacy. vo symmetrical allwheel drive plus 36 mpg. I gotta break more toys. vo introducing the allnew subaru legacy. Its not just a sedan. Its a subaru. She tried to kill us. No, its only 15 calories. With reddi wip, fruit never sounded more delicious, with 15 calories per serving and real cream, the sound of reddi wip is the sound of joy. Okay, movhow do i win . Yone wins. Because were streaming the movie that you love. Well, how do i win . Because we ordered that weird thing that you love from the pizza place. How do you win, dad . 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His family will be coming to the United States if august for that surgery. The rewrite is next, starring adam carolla, bill oreilly and a couple of president s, including a fictional one. This is the first power plant in the country to combine solar and natural gas at the same location. During the day, we generate as much electricity as we can using solar. At night and when its cloudy, we use more natural gas. This ensures we can produce Clean Electricity whenever our customers need it. Say hi rudy. [ barks ] [ chuckles ] id do anything to keep this guy happy and healthy. Thats why im so excited about these new milkbone brushing chews. Whoa, im not the only one. Its a brilliant new way to take care of his teeth. Clinically proven as effective as brushing. Ok, here you go. Have you ever seen a dog brush his own teeth . The twist and nub design cleans all the way down to the gum line, even reaching the back teeth. They taste like a treat, but they clean like a toothbrush. Nothing says you care like a milkbone brushing chew. [ barks ] nothing says you care like a milkbone brushing chew. Thats keeping you from the healthcare you deserve. At humana, we believe if healthcare changes, if frustration and paperwork decrease. The gap begins to close. So lets simplify things. Lets close the gap between people and care. But if you do. [ glass breaking, dog barking ]. With allstate, your rates wont go up just because of it. Claim rateguard from allstate. Your home protects you, protect it back. Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that theyre ignorant, its just that they know so much that isnt so. The liberal response to that kind of jab was not to deny being ignorant, but to deny being liberal. Ronald reagan was the master at rewriting the word liberal into an insult, and his lesson was learned by every republican candidate for president since reagan. Meanwhile, republicans have increasingly embraced the word conservative, and Ronald Reagans day, there were liberal republicans and conservative democrats, as well as obviously liberal democrats and conservative republicans. And now there are no liberal republicans left in washington, and no truly conservative democrats left in washington. And no frontrunner for the democratic nomination for president ever claims to be liberal. While every republican frontrunner for the republican nomination for president claims to be conservative. Im a compassionate conservative, and proudly so. I was a severely conservative republican governor. So democrats duck every time the word liberal is thrown at them, even the most liberal democrats. While republicans love claiming the word conservative, even former liberal republicans like mitt romney. But radio host adam carolla has noticed none of that. The left has taken over the word conservative and turned it into a pejorative. So its like oh, youre a conservative. Theyve done a wonderful Smear Campaign. Adam carolla said that this week. A wonderful Smear Campaign . Really, adam . If the left has run a wonderful Smear Campaign against the word conservative, why have republicans spent 50 years tightening their grip on the label conservative . If the left has run a successful Smear Campaign against the word conservative, why do republican candidates for president fight each other over who is the most conservative . The only effective vote to stop a massachusetts liberal from becoming our nominee is to vote for newt gingrich. Theres your political pejorative right there, liberal. If you want to make it sound really bad, put the word massachusetts in front 067 it. Republicans wish they could republican against a massachusetts liberal every time. Environmental problems, crime, liberal spending out of control. Michael dukakis, out of touch with our values and problems. That is what professional politicians on both sides believe that liberal has come to mean in our politics, out of touch with our values and problems. The single most successful piece of domestic american political propaganda of the 20th century is that liberalism is out of touch with our values and problems. The liberal political establishment response to that was not just to run away from the word liberal but to change their name. They dropped liberal and started using the word progressive. They wanted to get the message that they stood for something, some general political philosophy but couldnt bring themselves to use the word liberal because republicans had so successfully turned that word into a political pejorative. Here is the bravest response by a liberal a at the president ial level to being labeled a liberal. Are you the most liberal president in u. S. History . Probably not. Probably not. Probably not. Now, that is the height of political bravery, when confronted with the label liberal, president obama did not deny being a liberal. His answer actually accepts that he is a liberal, but he sure didnt want to say much more about it. Its not easy to get a twoword answer out of president obama. But at least he didnt deny being a liberal. But of course, bill oreilly was not finished. Who would be . You know, the truth of the matter is, when you look at some of my policies, in a lot of ways, Richard Nixon walls more liberal than i was. He started the epa, started a whole lot of the regulatory state thats helped make our air and water clean. Thats interesting, nixon . Thats interesting. I thought you were going to say fdr. Well, fdr, johnson. But i dont think of these things as liberal and conservative, because the question is what does the country need right now . Okay, not exactly a stirring defense of liberalism, but president obama did not duck and run when the word liberal was thrown at him. But stirring defenses of liberalism are what liberal president ial candidates do. I am not going to let governor dukakis go through this election without explaining some of these very liberal positions. Hes the one that said, i am a liberal progressive liberal democrat. Im not keeping count, but hes used the label liberal at least ten times. If president bush used the word liberal ten times, Michael Dukakis should have stood his ground and used it 11 times. It was true, he was a liberal. But by 1988, liberal candidates had been beaten up so badly with that word they had no idea how to fight back, that they could use that word in their own defense. To this day, no liberal president ial candidate has done that. For that, we have to turn to fiction. Youre not thinking liberal, are you . I know you like to use that word liberal as if it were a crime. Im sorry, i should. Have used that word. I know democrats think liberal is a bad word. So bad you had to change it, didnt you . What do you call yourselves now, progressives . Its true. Republicans have tried to turn liberal into a bad word, while liberals ended slavery in this country. [ applause ] a republican president ended slavery. A liberal republican. What happened to them . They got run out of your party. What did liberals do that was so offensive to the Republican Party . Ill tell you what they did, liberals got women the right to vote. Liberals got africanamericans the right to vote. Liberals created social security, and lifted millions out elderly people out of poverty. Liberals ended segregation, liberals passed the civil rights act, the Voting Rights act, created medicare. Liberals passed the Clean Air Act and clean water act. What did conservatives do . They opposed every one of those programs. Every one. 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The Fastest Office plant. So why wouldnt i choose the fastest wifi . I would. Switch to comcast Business Internet and get the fastest wifi included. Comcast business. Built for business. Breaking news. The Associated Press just called the georgia Runoff Election for the Senate Republican nomination down there for businessman david purdue, with 93 of precincts reporting. David perdue has defeated congressman Jack Kingston by about 6,000 votes. He will face democrat michelle nun in november. Polling shows her leading either kingston or perdue, in this case perdue. Polling showed her leading 48 to 42 over perdue. Up next, a republican candidates worst nightmare, an independent voter telling him what he really thinks about obamacare. Shes still the one for you. And cialis for daily use helps you be Ready Anytime the moment is right. Cialis is also the only daily ed tablet approved to treat symptoms of bph, like needing to go frequently. 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Bill steffen, the owner of hog heaven, who is a selfdescribed fiscal conservative and independent voter, told mcfadden that obamacare is the best thing the government has ever done to me, and i didnt necessarily feel like that until i knew how it worked. Joining me now, the proud owner of hog heaven and satisfied obamacare beneficiary bill steffen. Tell us about your experience with the Affordable Care act, what you thought about it before you got enrolled and what your experience has been with it. My experience was that i had discontinued unemployment for my employer and had become selfemployed in april of last year and i needed Health Insurance. To maintain cobra was expensive. And i talked to my Insurance Agent and started the process of finding which Health Insurance i needed, and she said, dont do anything. The whole world is going to change with obamacare. So i didnt do anything and i paid my cobra Health Insurance to blue cross, blue shield. I waited until october 1, went online, and didnt get anything done. I read all about the problems, was patient, went on again november 15th and was totally successful on my first try at signing up for Affordable Care. Has it been a good deal for you financially . Its been a very good deal. My wife is a cancer survivor, and the big question was whether we could actually get Health Insurance because in the previous world they could deny you Health Insurance. So that was hanging over us. And wondering if the price was going to be escalated because of that. The same boat that a lot of people are in. And found out that the minnesota has the lowest premiums of any state. And we have a fairly low cost of living in rural minnesota. With the premiums being low and the income guidelines being high, a person can make a reasonable income here and be considered poor on a national level, and be fairly subsidized by obamacare. Bill steffen gets tonights last word. Thanks for joining us. Were out of time. Thank you very much, bill, for joining us tonight. Thank you. Chris hayes is up next