>> a million dollars, but the american people are going to raise some cain in 2012. >> i think we need newt gingrich. >> what we always get with newt is this high drama. his poll numbers are on the gi be that conservative alternative. >> gingrich is coming under attack on all fronts. >> the paul campaign labels gingrich a, quote, serial hypocrite. >> he's a flip-flopper. >> i helped lead the effort to defeat communism. >> romney getting really testy. >> you're wrong, brett. brett, brett. >> mitt romney overreacting a little bit? >> mitt got a little defensive. >> we've just seen the tip of the iceberg. >> what brett bear said in his interview with mitt romney. >> he was overly aggressive. >> all right, let's do it again. >> he didn't like the interview and thought it was uncalled for. >> brett, i don't know how many hundred times i've said this, too. >> it's like the pee-wee herman strategy, when he was attacked, he'd say i know you are, but what am i? >> he's a flip-flopper. with 33 days to go before the peculiar and sometimes meaningless exercise called the iowa caucuses and exactly 40 days to go to the new hampshire primary where people actually do what most of us recognize as voting, professional democrats find themselves in agreement with republican voters on one thing. they both want anyone but romney to be the republican nominee. the democratic national committee has done exactly one attack ad against exactly one candidate, mitt romney. >> from theç creator of "i'm running for office for pete's sake" comes the story of two men trapped in one body. mitt versus mitt. two mitts willing to say anything. >> we put together an exchange and the president's copying that idea. i'm glad to hear that. >> after a disastrous romney interview appearance on fox news, jon huntsman was quick to exploit it. >> how can voters trust what they hear from you today is what you will believe if you win the white house? >> well, brett, your list is just not accurate. so one, we're going to have to be better informed about my views on issues. >> different issues, climate change. >> i believe basically what i read is the world is getting warmer. and number two, i believe that humans contribute to that. we don't know what's causing climate change on this planet. >> abortion. >> i believe that abortion should be safe and legal in this country. >> that i have consistently been pro-life. >> and immigration -- >> the 12 million or so that are heel illegally should be able to sign up for citizenry or sip n citizenship. >> until this week, romney has been playing the role of the inevitable nominee, but after the fox news interview and newt gingrich's surge in the polls, romney may still be a front-runner. but he is no longer inevitable. joining me now, "time" magazine columnist joel klein whose article will appear in tomorrow's "time" magazine and robert draper whose article "building a better mitt romney bot" will appear in this sunday's ç"new york times" magazine. joe, i want to go straight to your piece where you talk about the flip-flops which is the central problem. where is the love with republican voters is all about where is the consistency with mitt romney, right? you write about it saying "all too often his switchbacks have been so expedient as to make you wonder how stupid or short-sighted he thinks the electorate is." that really struck me because that's the first time it focused on the possibility that the republican electorate could feel insulted by the romney approach to issues. >> well, in talking to some republicans out on the road, they do feel insulted. they think that he hasn't been playing straight. and when you look at his career, this is a guy, a very intelligent guy, who has never run as who he probably is. you know, when he ran for the senate and governor in massachusetts, he ran as a social liberal. but before that, he had been a mormon bishop and president. and he had counseled women against having abortions and so on. so he kind of trimmed on social issues before. and now having been a moderate governor of massachusetts, the first to institute universal health care via an individual mandate, he's running as a conservative because that's the only -- on a broad range of policy issues, because that's the only way you can survive in a republican presidential primary these days. the inconsistencies are staggering. >> he actually is something that we once recognized. we used to call them moderate. and sometimes even liberal republicans, when you think of jon chaffee from rhode island, he was for an individual mandate in health care. i believe he was pro-choice, as i recall. a set of positions that romney would have held. >> look, mitt came into political consciousnessç in a moment when there was something called the empowerment wing of the republican party which was led by none other than newt gingrich who has had all of these very same flip-flops. and they were the people who came up with cap and trade and a market-based system to reduce pollution. they're the people who came up with the individual mandate. that came out of the heritage foundation. they're the people who came up with the earned income tax credit. and these were a bunch of really good ideas that democrats modified and then tried to adopt. >> robert draper, are you focused on how the romney candidacy has changed into this version of the presidential candida candidacy, and with a strong focus on advisers and how much control they have over him. and by the way, the advisers prevented joe klein and you from getting any access to romney for these pieces, right? >> that's true. and that's been their policy throughout, lawrence. nothing personal to me or to joe. but instead their view is that romney did a lot of interviews in the last election cycle. and they simply don't see the value to doing any more. i wouldn't say that his strategists have control of romney. what they have done is sort of narrow cast him. joe was talking about how they're running him now as a conservative. i would refine that maybe to say they're running him as a business deserconservative. and stuart mentioned to me an analogy, kind of an unlikely one to the dynamic philadelphia eagles' quarterback michael vick in which he said, you know, michael vick, don't try to turn him into a pocket passer. let him be a rollout passer. in fact, design a system in which he can be the best rollout passer there ever was. they're doing that with romney except, of course, romney is the opposite of vick. he cannot improvise. andç so they have created a pocket for him, and that pocket is the businessman. you know, the ultimate capitalist. and it presupposes that this is a single-issue election. and it presupposes as well that people know enough about mitt romney already to accept this narrow-cast version of him. i'm not sure either of those presuppositions washes. >> robert, i want to read a piece of your article which refers to how the advisers had told him how he can deal with the right wing of the party. you say advisers have counseled romney to ignore tax from disapproving conservatives like the comment made by the baptist supporter and perry supporter that mormonism is a cult. four years ago that would have set off all sorts of alamp bells. we would have tried to mobilize our evangelical supporters. a senior staff member told me the romney campaign has made its peace with and in the general election may make a virtue out of the fact that he remains despised by the far right. joe, can that work? can he be despised by the far right, pick up a nomination, and then use his centrist appeal in general election? >> he seems to think that you can run for president under the radar. there is no -- there is no place under the radar when you're running for president. i mean, the interesting thing about his press strategy is that it's the complete reverse of what candidates did in the past. in the past, candidates open up their campaigns when no one's watching a year or so out, and they do all of their interviews out. they sit down with draper for hours, and they sit down with me. and then when it gets to be labor day or in a general election or this point in the primary çelection, they shut i down. you know, bill clinton who i had a pretty good relationship with wouldn't talk to me after labor day in 1992. and that's the way -- that's the way professional politicians do it. the level of amateurism in this republican primary race, by every last one of these candidates, is staggering. >> i want to read part of your piece, joe, where you talk about how he changes his mind. it's often fascinating to watch romney's mind at work as he flips his flops. abortion is a classic case. his first public position was itself a flip-flop. running for the senate in 1994. he announced that he was personally opposed to abortion but that i do not impose my beliefs on other people. previously as a mormon bishop, he had gone so far to visit a woman in the hospital to try to dissuade her from having an abortion. he was still sort of pro-choice when he ran for governor in 2004, but he started flopping his flip midterm as the dire potomac virus set in. why couldn't you know sooner than that that you couldn't be pro-choice and get the presidency? >> why didn't he know sooner than that that the individual mandate wasn't going to work either? the fact is that it's not really totally his fault. this republican party has hurtled to the right at warp speed over the last decade. and there was -- you know, it caught newt gingrich by surprise, too, because newt, as i said, took many of the exact same positions on matters of substance as romney did. >> robert, i just want to go to one final part of your article where they talk about his people skills. stories ofç romney's wooden people skills are legion. the mormon's never going to win the "who do you want to have a beer with contest" concedes one adviser. while another acknowledges, "he's never had the experience of sitting in a bar and, like, talking." i take particular offense at that since i've never had a beer in my life. i've never had any alcohol at all. joe can tell you i'm a perfectly approachable unwooden character. since when did you only learn to talk to people in bars half drunk? >> in fact, george w. bush is a pretty good people person who hadn't had a drink in a long time. but it's true. you know, this is not romney's strong suit, you know, interacting with people. it's oftentimes painful on the campaign trail when you see him try to do retail politics. it's just not what he does well. and frankly, i think that the campaign has if not made its peace with, at least reckoned with the fact that, you know, you go with a candidate you have, not the one you wish you had. nonetheless, i think that, you know, as joe said, the campaign strategy of keeping him away from the media would work with other candidates, perhaps. ironically, i think it would work with newt gingrich. i don't think it works with a guy like romney. >> joe klein and robert draper, thank you both for joining me tonight. >> my pleasure. drew kline and editor of "the new hampshire union leader" was in the room today when herman cain met with the newspaper for an hour to discuss his 13-year relationship with ginger white. drew kline joins me next to tell us what herman cain had to say today. and later, my exclusive interview with ginger white. we're america's natural gas and here's what we did today: supported nearly 3 million steady jobs across our country... ... scientists, technicians, engineers, machinists... ... adding nearly 400 billion dollars to our economy... we're at work providing power to almost a quarter of our homes and businesses... ... and giving us cleaner rides to work and school... and tomorrow, we could do even more. cleaner, domestic, abundant and creating jobs now. we're america's natural gas. the smarter power, today. learn more at anga.us. [ femala $100 cream. we were flattered when regenerist beat flabbergasted when we creamed a $500 cream. for about $30 regenerist micro-sculpting cream hydrates better than over 20 of america's most expensive luxury creams. fantastic. phenomenal. regenerist. coming up, the editorial editor of "the new hampshire union leader." then the woman who had a 13-year relationship with cain, ginger white, will give us her reaction to herman cain's interview today in new hampshire. congratulations. congratulations. congratulations. today, the city of charlotte can use verizon technology to inspire businesses to conserve energy and monitor costs. making communities greener... congratulations. ... and buildings as valuable to the bottom line... whoa ! ... as the people inside them. congratulations. because when you add verizon to your company, you don't just add, you multiply. ♪ discover something new... verizon. herman cain met with the editors of "the new hampshire union leader" this afternoon in his first non-fox news interview since ginger white revealed their 13-year friendship which mr. cain now fully acknowledges, but he continued to deny today in new hampshire he had an affair with ginger white. cain told the editors his whiif fwlor ya, did not know about the friendship, and he talked about roughly 70 text messages sent between white and him. friends. >> okay. >> okay? >> until she came out. >> until she came out with this story. >> joining me now in a "last word" exclusive, drew kline, editorial page editor of "the new hampshire union leader." drew, i just have to ask you right off the bat, anybody in that room believe herman cain? >> you know, i think we're going to withhold judgment on that and let the viewers decide for themselves when they see the video. >> thank you for your laughter. i think that helps us as much as anything else you could have said. why did he do this? doesn't he know that you've already endorsed newt gingrich and he's running at, like, single digits in new hampshire with no chance? >> you'd have to ask him why he agreed to do this. i think he's reassessing his campaign. he said he was reassessing whether he would go to a small-state-only strategy or continue with a small-state national strategy. so perhaps this was a chance for him to clear things up in front of new hampshire voters. >> and in what i've just seen of the interview, you actually asked him how much money changed hands over the years. >> right. >> and he said that he wouldn't answer it on the advice of counsel. was his lawyer in the room with him? >> no, his lawyer wasn't in the room. >> have you ever had one say, i cannot answer that question on the advice of my criminal lawyer? >> i don't think so. that would be a first for me. but what was also interesting is that i asked him, did your wife know you were giving this woman money? and he said no. not only did she not know that he was giving money to this woman, but she never knew the woman existed. and i think that wasç a very interesting revelation. he said he had a 13-year relationship with ginger white, never told his wife once that this person existed. this person was a friend of his. and he was giving her money. such an amount of money that his lawyer has advised him not to disclose what it was. and he never once had a conversation with his wife about it. >> his wife now seems fully empowered in terms of what happens next in his campaign. did he tell you that it was up to her essentially if he goes forward? >> he had an interesting way of putting it. he said -- we asked him about that. he said, "my wife would not ask me to quit the campaign. it's something she just wouldn't do. but if i judged that it was in her best interests for me to quit, then i would do that." >> and before any of these troubles, he was polling at 4% in new hampshire, a hopeless position in new hampshire before he got into these troubles. he could not have gone up since then. do you expect to see him back in new hampshire? you've been exposed to a lot of presidential candidates up there. did this feel to you like his last trip to new hampshire and probably his last week as a candidate? >> it did. i would expect sometime between sunday and tuesday that the gop will probably be down one candidate. >> he told you that this is the weekend where he goes back to atlanta, and he's going to be sitting down with the wife. and did he give you any indication of how he expects that conversation to go? >> no, he didn't. but i think he's going to have a lot of interesting explaining to do. you know, when we asked him, you know, i asked him, you know, this is kind of a nightmare for a prominent businessman, you know, a prominent man to have a woman começ forward and make these allegations. how did your paths cross? and he explained that he had met her at a conference in louisville, kentucky. and since he didn't have an entourage at that time way back then, that this woman got his cell phone number. and that's where things began. and so we asked him, you know, you said yesterday that they were, you know, sort of bringing these things out to hurt you. who's "they"? and this was, i think, a very telling answer. he said he had -- only speculati speculation, no proof -- but he believed there was a network of people who were interested in preventing him from being the nominee so he could challenge president obama and that this network of people he needed to root out. so he could clear his name. i think that's going to take a lot of explanation for his wife and for the public. >> were all of you editors able to keep a straight face throughout the interview? >> oh, sure. >> you're such professionals. drew cline, "new hampshire union leader," thank you very much for joining me tonight. >> my pleasure. thanks for having me. coming up, my exclusive interview with ginger white. ♪ [ man #1 ] i was fascinated by balsa wood airplanes since i was a kid. 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[ laughs ] ♪ [ male announcer ] the lexus december to remember sales event is here, but only for a limited time. see your lexus dealer for exclusive lease offers on the 2012 ct 200h and, as a gift from lexus, we'll make your first month's payment. coming up, an exclusive interview with the woman who haç a 1346 ye-year relationship wit herman cain. we'll get her reaction to what cain said about her in his interview with "the new hampshire union leader" today. and she will produce the phone records demanded by herman cain's lawyer. all energy development comes with some risk, but proven technologies allow natural gas producers to supply affordable, cleaner energy, while protecting our environment. across america, these technologies protect air - by monitoring air quality and reducing emissions... ...protect water - through conservation and self-contained recycling systems... ... and protect land - by reducing our footprint and respecting wildlife. america's natural gas... domestic, abundant, clean energy to power our lives... that's smarter power today. so i used my citi thank you card to pick up some accessories. a new belt. some nylons. and what girl wouldn't need new shoes? we talked about getting a diamond. but with all the thank you points i've been earning... ♪ ...i flew us to the rock i really had in mind. ♪ [ male announcer ] the citi thank you card. earn points you can use for travel on any airline, with no blackout dates. where do you think it all comes from? elves. [ laughs ] [ thunder crashes ] hurry up, lads! storm's brewin'. ♪ [ woman laughs ] stop it. ♪ someone offered her aç lotf money. >> okay. >> i was helping her with month-to-month bills and expenses. somebody -- this is speculation only -- >> okay. >> i have no proof -- offered her a lot of money. and one of my objectives is to clear my name and my reputation. >> that was herman cain in new hampshire today. joining me now, the woman at the center of the latest herman cain controversy, ginger white who this week revealed her 13-year relationship with herman cain. she is joined by her lawyer, edward buckley. thank you both very much for joining me tonight. >> thank you. >> thank you for having us. >> ginger white, herman cain has said tonight that he believes you were offered a very large amount of money to come out and tell this story. is that why you're telling this story? >> absolutely not. no one has offered me anything. so that is false. >> he knows you well. what does it feel like for you to see him talking about you that way? >> it's very hurtful. very hurtful. >> now, he has acknowledged that he has known you for 13 years. he calls it a 13-year friendship. and so the difference that's being argued over right now is what was the nature of that friendship, and you're saying it involved a romantic affair that was on and off over those 13 years. when you hear herman cain in every interview he's given, he gave one on fox news, essentially calling you a liar, how does that make you feel? >> well, it doesn't make meç fl very good. however, at the end of the day, i know that i am telling the truth. i would never come out with something like this if it wasn't true. honestly, i didn't want to come out with this. and i know that travel was involved and sex was involved. i would never lie about that. >> now, herman cain's lawyer has demanded that you reveal the phone records that you have. you have supplied us with some phone records here of october and november of this year, 37 text messages in the october reports and one phone call on october 18th. 46 text messages in november with no phone calls in the records on november, a total of 83 text messages over that period of time. that's -- that is a high number by anyone's count. and herman cain is suggesting that that was about nothing other than you texting him asking for help with the rent and maybe car payments. >> pretty much that's true. our relationship had faded -- our sexual relationship had faded out a bit, which i was very fine with. and so the last 2 1/2 years, yes. we would text back and forth. he would help me monthly. most times he would be traveling. and when there were several texts, it was just he and i trying to get our schedules together to where we could çme. and he would, you know, help me out with money for bills and various things. so yes, that is correct. >> let's listen to herman cain's description in new hampshire today about how you met. >> we met years ago at a conference that she was one of the organizers, and he was the keynote speaker. the keynote speaker at a conference in louisville, kentucky. that's already out there. many, many years ago. and because i didn't have an entourage when i was traveling around giving keynote speeches, she had my contact information. so she stayed in touch. >> what's your reaction to that? >> well, we did meet in louisville, kentucky. at the black achooefrs -- at a function there. and the thing is, i -- he gave me his contact information. i didn't already have it. i didn't get it from anyone else but mr. cain. as a matter of fact, shortly after that meeting, we -- he flew me to palm springs, california. so i think that he is, you know, telling just parts of the truth. >> and when he flew you to palm springs, california, is that where the romantic relationship began? >> yes, it did. >> and do you know who paid for that plane ticket? we've actually asked the restaurant association that he was working for whether they were paying for your plane tickets, and they are telling us that they don't have expense receipts going back that long. >> i have no idea. i have no idea. >> and when you traveled with him at other times, did you ever fly with him? were you ever on the same plane with him?ç >> no. i would always meet him. he would send me the ticket. and i would meet him at whatever location he was staying at. >> and did any of your family and friends know that you were jetting off to meet herman cain somewhere? >> my family knew, as i have two sisters. and either my sisters would keep my kids for the weekend. i wanted to make sure that my kids were safe and they were in good hands. and yes, my sisters, my brother and my mother were aware of this relationship. >> i'd like you to listen to herman cain today. i think we have this sound of him today discussing the question of exactly how much money he gave you over the years. >> how much money did you give her? >> well, i -- because of my attorney and because of some inc. thises that we are looking at, i can't talk about that at this particular point. >> i can tell you, ginger white, that that is not a common answer in interviews with presidential candidates. i can't answer because of my lawyer tells me not to. can you remember or tell us what you think the total amounts of money or any given year, how much money he would end up giving you to help you get by? >> honestly, i'd rather not say. i don't have an exact amount. so i -- you know, i'm just not sure exactly. >> did he give you that money in cash? >> yes, he did. >> always in cash? >> always in cash. >> and he said that he has given -- he has helped other people this çway. did he ever discuss with you helping other people in a similar way? >> he never -- in a similar way would be sleeping with a person and then helping them financially. that's how he was helping me. i can't say that he ever said that, no. >> when you heard the stories that came out about the charges of sexual harassment, and in particular, when you heard the story of the woman who met cain under similar circumstances to yours at an event where she was speaking and then she later found herself in a car with him in washington, and he became very physically aggressive with her, did that sound like the herman cain that you knew? >> herman cain was never aggressive with me in that manner or any manner at all. the way they met, possibly, you know, there may have been some similarities. he is a very friendly person. he is funny. he has a personality that, you know, he enjoys meeting people. and yes, i'm sure i'm not exactly sure what her situation was and how they met, but if it was a social function similar to mine, then yeah, it made me think, wow, funny. >> in your intimate time together, did he find himself discussing his family with you? >> we never discussed his family, no. >> and he never discussed his wife? >> he mentioned her name a couple of times just in passing, you know, maybe very random conversations. but it was never anything that we really spentç a whole lot o time on. >> and atlanta's not the biggest town in the world. did you ever run into her ever in the same store together or see her at a restaurant or anything like that? >> no, never. and i never really knew what she looked like until, you know, she was appearing on the television with herman. i never knew what she looked like. >> let's take a look at that. we have a clip of her when she appeared discussing these charges against herman cain. let's look at that. >> there were such ugly things said. and i kept thinking, who are these people talking about? this isn't herman. i know the person that he is. and i know that the person that they were talking about, i don't know who that person is. and we've been married for 43 years. and if i haven't seen parts of that person in 43 years, i don't think i'm that simple that i would miss something that significant. i keep going back to, now, in the beginning, i started thinking in my mind, could i have missed something? but then i always go back to the beginning. no, i'm not missing anything. i know herman. i know him. >> ginger, how did you feel when you saw her give that interview? >> i never saw the interview. and just listening to that, you never really know a person, obviously. and that's really all i have to say on that. i would be surprisedç if she i surprised by this, honestly speaking. i would be surprised. >> is there anything you would like to say to gloria cain tonight? >> no. >> all right. >> i have no comment. >> okay. we're going to take a break here, ginger white and her attorney, edward buckley, please stay with us. we'll be back with more after this break. are choosing advil. i'm keith baraka and i'm a firefighter. and it's very physically demanding. if i'm sore i'm not at my best. advil is my go-to. it's my number one pain reliever. 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[ female announcer ] swap one thing a day for a yoplait light at around 100 calories. it will add up to amazing. more of my interview with ginger white, the woman who had a 13-year relationship with herman cain. that's next. i want to look natural, not naked! but look! with covergirl, all you need is 3 little things to make beauty powerful for you. lashblast for voluptuous volume, outlast -- to keep your lips beautiful and not come off if you kiss... simply ageless foundation to help you look young. see? just three. easy breezy beautiful covergirl. ♪ ♪ imagine me and you, i do ♪ i think about you day and night ♪ ♪ it's only right ♪ to think about the girl you love ♪ ♪ and hold her tight ♪ so happy together [ male announcer ] when life changes, so can your insurances needs. use travelers free guide to better coverage to stay prepared. is your auto and home insurance keeping up with you? contact your local travelers agent, or call 800-my-coverage. and we're back with ginger white who this week revealed her 13-year relationship with herman cain. she is joined by her lawyer, edward buckley. ginger, i wanted you to listen to what herman cain said today in this interview about how the future of his campaign is essentially up to his wife. let's listen to that. >> if your wife asked you to please get out, are you out? >> yes. >> okay. >> but my wife wouldn't ask me to get out. she wouldn't ask me to get out. i would make a decision based upon how all of this stuff is affected her because i will put her first. but she's not the type to say, you ought to get out. >> ginger, give us some insight into this man. what i'm hearing there is a man who at first is saying yes, instantaneously yes, if my wife wants me out, i'm out. but then he tries to keep control of the si(uation by saying, "my wife would never ask me to do that. if i get out, it really will be my decision." i mean, i'm hearing a guy who's trying to have both sides of this at the same time. is that, in your experience, a common way herman cain response to things? >> herman is definitely a person that knows what he wants. and he goes after it. and i would really be surprised if there was ever any situation that someone else called a shot for him. he just has his personality, as far as when he has been with me, he's very sure of himself. and, you know, i would like to actually make this comment before the commercial break, you asked me, what would i say to mrs. cain? you are the first person that's asked that question, so it really took me aback. because i am not a cold-hearted person. i am a mother of two kids. and, of course, my heart bleeds for this woman because i am a woman, and being in a situation like this cannot be fun. and i am deeply, deeply sorry if i have caused any hurt to her, to his kids, to his family. that was not my intention. i never wanted to hurt anyone. and i'm deeply sorry. +t commercial break gave you a chance to think about that. and just as we talk here, please feel free to go back and add to any answer you give. i know you're not someone who's been doing television interviews your whole life, so i just want you to be comfortable and interrupt me at any point that you want to when there's something you want to say, or something you want to add. is it your sense that knowing herman the way you do, that he will have a conversation with his wife this weekend? and knowing everything you know about this, where it stands right now, what do you think he will decide to do? >> you know, i'm really not quite sure. i do believe him when he says he will have that discussion. he has never appeared to be a quitter. he, you know, is a person that pretty much, as i said, goes after whatever he wants. however, i will, whatever decision is made, i will respect that decision. as i've said many times before, this has never been political. this has been a very, very difficult situation for me, for my family, his family. it's been very tough. so whatever decision the cain family makes is their decision. and i will respect that decision. i will respect it. >> herman cain has described you as desperate. he said that you've been doing this for money. he also said that he has absolutely no evidence of that, which is kind of a trademark of his, saying things that he has no evidence for. but let's get back to why you did revealç this. and i'm going to quickly track for you my understanding of it. it's that word had leaked out. your sisters knew about it. some friends of yours knew about it over the years. and someone had let local media know about it, probably somewhere in your network of friends or who knows? and local media was closing in on you with questions. and the local affiliate in atlanta was going to go with a story about this whether you cooperated or not. and it was only at that point, is it my understanding, it was only at that point that you decided to do an interview with that television station? >> that's correct. there was a leak, several leaks, i'm not exactly sure how that came to be. i was very concerned. i was very worried because i didn't want my life to be thrown out there in front of everyone. i do lead a very -- a pretty private life. i mean, i'm a very simple person. and i didn't want to hurt his family. i didn't want to hurt anyone. and so when this -- you know, when i was getting these phone calls and things like that, it was just really, really tough. it was a tough decision. many sleepless nights. many sleepless nights. many tears dropped. and i had to sit my kids down. i have a daughter that's 20 and my son is 18. and you can't imagine how tough that conversation was to share something so personal, so priva private. and also inappropriate. you know, when i'm trying to teach my kids to do the right thing, and here i'm having to sit down and look at them and rqy, you know what? mommy really screwed up. and i hope that you can forgive me. i hope you understand. and i hope you will support. this decision. and i talk with my family, and they are very supportive, as it's been tough. it's been very tough on everyone involved. so this was not, again, something that i wanted to come out with. and i have not received a dime for any of this. i just wouldn't do that. >> to get back to your relationship with herman cain which he now says was just a friendship, and you've told us it was not that. it was a romantic relationship, in effect, an affair during 13 years of his marriage. how strongly -- describe your feelings for each other at the peak of this affair. did herman cain tell you he loved you? >> never. and nor did i tell him that i loved him. it wasn't a love affair. it was a sexual affair. as hard as that is for me to say and as hard as it is for people to hear it, you know, it pretty much is what it is. and that's what it was. >> and i assume he was a fun guy. he bursts into song and he seems like a pretty funny guy. so i'm getting the feeling it was a light-hearted, easygoing, fun affair as far as it went with no expectations on either end. >> exactly. you know, when i met herman,ç entered into this relationship, friendship pretty much knowing, you know, number one, what you're doing is wrong. and number two, i was very intrigued. he's a very intelligent man. he is very fun-loving. he offered me a getaway. you know, a getaway from the, you know, the normal day-to-day hustle and bustle. and so he would send me tickets and fly me off, and we'd have a pretty, simple weekend. and i would return back home. he'd return to his home. and we would, you know -- he would go on with my life as normal. it was pretty simple. >> when you were in atlanta, did you carry on romantically in atlanta? >> we had a few times. yes. >> and how did you do that in atlanta? were hotel rooms involved? would there be records of that? >> hotel rooms. i have no record of it. but yes. hotel rooms. and it was just a few times here in atlanta. there again, it was mostly in the very beginning that it was pretty consistent for a while there. and then when i -- the last couple of years, as i said, we, you know, met a couple of times sexually. now, we would have lunch. we would have a dinner, something like that. but this by noç reasons was a love affair. and as i said, it was just a casual affair. >> but it was certainly a friendship, you would agree with at least that characterization that herman cain has given it? >> you know, i thought -- i thought we were friends. and he made a comment to me. and he laughed after. so he may have just only been joking. but i said, wow. running for president. that's pretty major. and i said, i guess we won't be friends anymore. he went, yeah, probably not. i went, okay. at least you were honest. obviously he was a friend because he helped me. but at what level, i don't know. >> now that you've heard him lie about you publicly, if you could talk to herman cain tonight, what would you say to him? >> that i honestly can't believe that, you know, it was very hard for me to come out with this and, you know, fess up to something that i had done. i'm pretty straightforward. you know, i a conscience. i'm surprised that he hasn't -- that he's treating me as if i'm lying about this. that does bother me. it bothers me, yes. >> ginger white, thank you very, very much for joining us tonight and your ó8uáorney, ed buckley, thank you also for helping us with this interview tonight. thank you both. i really appreciate it. >> thank you. thank you very much. >> you can find the entirety of this interview on our web site, thelastword.msnbc.com. for convertibles, press star one. i didn't catch that. to speak to a representative, please say representative now. representative. goodbye! you don't like automated customer service, and neither do we. that's why, unlike other cards, no matter when you call chase sapphire preferred, you immediately get a person not a prompt. chase sapphire preferred. a card of a different color. 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