Transcripts For MSNBCW The Cycle 20141124

This clergy meeting. One of the interesting things he said to me yesterday, this was a sentiment also echoed by captain ron johnson as well, this idea that we are going to see these widespread potentially violent clashes once again. He disputes that. He does not think were going to see a remake of what we saw 110 days ago or so. For two reasons. One, primarily, Law Enforcement has spent a great deal of time pounding the pavement in these communities, in these neighborhoods, talking to people who not just folks who live in the neighborhoods, but the protest organizers as well. As you know, theyve sort of reached a consensus on a handful of these rules of engagement. Thats one reason. The second reason is, he thinks that that the protests themselves have been organized and structured in such a fash n fashifashio fashion theyve had theyve had training in peaceful protesting. He thinks that because of that as well, youre going to see largely peaceful protests tonight. Captain johnson also said, no matter what the outcome is, whether the grand jury decides to indict or whether the grand jury decides not to indict, he still thinks were probably going to see some folks on the streets this evening. Again, in just the last two or three minutes or so, i can tell you that we are going to get an announcement regarding a decision in just a few hours. 2 00, by the way n st. Louis, there have been some folks that have said over the past hour or so, some folks who said to me, it would be nice if the decision itself were announcement during daylight hours. A lot has gone into preparing for this decision being announced later today, craig. Governor jay nixon announced a state of emergency about a week ago. Schools are out. The white house continues to emphasize the need for peaceful protests. Youre on the ground there. Does it feel like everything has been done to prepare for this moment . Reporter yeah, it does. It does. Some people will tell you, abby, that perhaps the preparations have gone too far. The phrase selffulfilling prophecy has been used more than half a dozen occasions, during the course of interviews with people. There have been those who said, if you call out the National Guard a week before an announcement is made f youve got businesses boarding up in anticipation of violence, then what message does that then send . A lot of folks who have been asking those questions over the past week or so. Something else interesting to note, we found this out yesterday from a court official, you know, for a long time there had been reports that the prosecutor, if officer wilson is not indicted, the prosecutor would go to a judge and say, okay, lets make virtually all of the evidence available for public consumption. A lot of folks were under the impression that was a done deal. Yesterday we found out that that is, in fact, not a done deal. There is a chance the evidence, the visual ed, audio evidence, everything this grand jury heard, saw and read, that that information will not be made public. Thats something we found out yesterday. A lot of folks obviously asking questions about that, wanting to know why. Craig melvin, stay with us there. It would take nine out of 12 jurors to indict, which would then lead to a full trial. Any indictment would not be a determination of guilt. Grand jurors can also find theres not enough evidence to find wilson probably committed any crime. For perspective on this Legal Process and security measures being taken, we go to eugene odonnell, a former nypd Police Officer and assistant district attorney, lisa green, her forthcoming book is titled on your case. Welcome to you both. Lisa, walk us through just legally what would be the next steps. The grand jury has been deliberating. They have come to a decision. We dont know that yet. After the announcement, what happens next . Well, for now, still a lot of secrecy. Well find out apparently what the decision is, whether theyll vote a true bill or no true bill, whether the case will go forward or stop. The prosecutor has said he will not convene another grand jury absent strong new evidence. Remember, were dealing with a black box. And a grand jury procedure historically in this case is quite secret. So, there wont be an Immediate Release of evidence. The prosecutor has said he would like to release the transcripts. That may happen. To be honest, News Organizations probably should seek the release of those transcripts, as theyve done in other cases, including st. Louis. For now, we know very little. We wont know which jurors voted the way they did. We dont even get to know how many jurors voted in one direction or another. We just know yes or no, will the case go forward. Eugene, when you look at this kind of case with the st. Louis Police Officer, Police Officers have great authorized leeway in how they use force. We know here from what the Prosecutors Office has released, that this is a set of grand jurors who have seen the law in the state on police force and some of the jury instructions typically derived from that law which says you can use deadly force if a suspect is either of great bodily harm, injury or threat to you, a threat of death or in the case of missouri law as well, a controversial statute that says also when theyre fleeing you might be able to use deadly force. Can you walk us through how that should be properly applied in the grand jury context, which weve been stressing is not a full trial . It really depends on if this is viewed as one transaction or separate transactions. Was there some interaction in the car followed by something outside of the car . It is possible the officer was deemed initially justified and then went beyond his mandate of selfdefense outside the car. So, it very much depends on the nuance of that. Regardless of whether ultimately the officer is charged or not, the system is clearly indicted here. It clearly needs to be put on trial. The entire system. Not just in ferguson but beyond. The issue of trust. The issue that people feel alienated. Policing is so disconnected, that verdict is in already. But the actual issue of whether this officer should be charged, especially, unless he acted with malice, the prosecution is its been hard, coast to coast, to formally charge a Police Officer and also because the obstacle is, if he is indicted, have you to prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt which means disproving his defense beyond a reasonable doubt. Thats a very high standard. Lisa, one of the lower potential charges facing the officer is Involuntary Manslaughter causing death without intending to. How does that apply to this case . One way it might apply again, were all talking theory. Well know more when the grand jury comes back. If the grand jury topper find probable cause of a higher charge, a murder 2 charge, and the Police Officer says, in my defense, i thought i was in imminent harm. The jury could decide it was an imperfect defense and bring that charge down to an Involuntary Manslaughter charge. Thats another root to a true bill. Again, all speculation at this point. Lisa, walk us through some of the aspects of this grand jury process that have seen different from other grand jury processes. One thing people point out is the fact the prosecutor didnt recommend any charges. Another thing that is potentially different here is the length of the process. In a fun yeah way this grand jury reverts back to the historical purpose of a grand jury, which was to happen a community of citizens make a decision about whether to prosecute or not. Get the state outer of the way and almost have a crowd source decision. In other ways because the grand jury received all of this evidence and been sort of allowed to fend for itself, it reminds me of that podcast serial, every week, its a lot like serial. Love that. The radio producer is giving us a ton of evidence. And she often says, look, this is not for me to decide. I actually havent made a decision. You go ahead. So, a rough analogy here where by all accounts these grand jurors have been given every scrap of evidence. Again, the prosecutor said, i want to make all of this transparent. I think the real question is which way does that lean, more likelihood of a true bill or less likely . How will they make that public announcement . Is it a released statement . I expect a released statement with very little information. Again, raising all these questions, no matter which way it goes, about how they got where they got. Well simply know if the case proceeds or if it doesnt. Eugene, build on that, how do you evaluate if we have a prosecutor speaking later today and announcing potentially some kind of decision, what should the prosecutor do, regardless of the decision to try to, as you were referencing, rebuild any trust here and instill confidence in a community that doesnt want any further incidence . The problem i have with this is an information dump is not going to be helpful. Thats not going to tell us why ultimately the grand jury made the decision. We wont have any real insight into that, which is why i thought prosecutors should own this more. Theres an elected prosecutor there. The Prosecutors Office should step up. We had a controversial shooting in new york where the manhattan d. A. Stepped up and released a very voluminous report that married up the law with the facts and you could read that. It took a very controversial shooting and really, i think, reassured people that even if they didnt agree with the ultimate outcome, it was a fair outcome youre distinguishing between the idea of simply asking the judge to release these documents, which has been talked about, and a different approach where you would actually release something more cohesive . Right. We want to know the information that went into the grand jury. We wont know necessarily the emphasis that was placed on it. We wont know how the officer came across in the grand jury. Theres a whole bunch of intangibles we wont know why the grand jury specifically decided to do what it did. It would seem were going to get a bunch of piecemeal information, some forensic information, if it does come out, conflicting witness accounts, but unless somebody gets a chance to talk to the grand jury, it will be hard to deduce why they came to the conclusions they did. Eugene, i want to build on that and also on something craig said earlier when he talked about the notion of a selffulfilling prophecy. When you have the National Guard called out a week early, when you have the governor coming out a week early and, you know, begging for calm, you know, when you have businesses boarding up their stores. If a verdict if a decision comes out and its not an indictment and people on the streets, upset, varying levels of upset, are you concerned about what the powers to be have done to put the officers that would have to police that situation in danger in a little more of a vulnerable situation because of how this has been handled . Yeah. I guess the governor cant win either way. I was kerpd there was a law and order approach to the conversation he was having versus a social justice approach. At root of these issues are social justice issues that arent going to go away and theyre not limited to ferguson, not limited to missouri. This framing of the issue of violence and nonviolence to me is not necessarily that helpful. Having said that, i think the story the last time it was the police sort of overreacting. They have to be concerned with the notion of police underreacting. The media cycle will move off this case sooner or later. If any reconstruction happens, any death in ferguson, that town will be forced to live with that. Getting that balance right is very hard to do. Youre never more than a day away from getting it wrong when its prolonged. It sounds like theyve got a lot more notice and a lot more leadership on the ground. And, you know, well keep our fingers crossed. I dont think any Police Department takes victory laps until theyre all finished. Eugene, lisa, stay with us as we await the announcement of the grand jurys decision. Lets head to ferguson where msnbcs amanda sukuma has the latest reaction there. What are you seeing . Reporter tonight we should expect a very different scenario than we wha we saw in august. There should be at least three different locations where protests could potentially crop up, not only in ferguson in front of the Police Department, but also in clayton where the st. Louis county Prosecutors Office is, where they will be making the announcement. And also in the shaw neighborhood, which is where yet another young black teen was shot dead by a Police Officer earlier this year. Now because this is such a geographically diverse area, it will be interesting to see how Police Response will turn out tonight. Barricades, for example, that are typically used to contain protests could effectively block families in, block in residents, in this very residential area. As far as what weve seen so far, a lot of the Police Response has been holding back, watching the protesters, letting them do amanda, just stay with us here. Amanda, stay with us. Were going to craig melvin who has new reporting. Joining us from clayton. What can you tell us . Reporter the official announcement that a decision has been made i can tell you that, again, the jury itself the grand jury has reached a decision. Were expecting that decision in a couple of hours. Just a couple of hours here. So it looks im trying to do quick math between central and eastern time. Its sad. We should get it before the sun goes down in st. Louis. Sounds like for our east coast viewers it would be between 5 00 and 6 00. Craig, youre on the ground. Youve seen some preparations, at least outside the courthouse. What is the sort of mood there, apart from obviously the assembled media . And what if any light can you shed on what were seeing here, which is an apparent approach at this time that would suggest an announcement that officially the decisions been made, followed on later, potentially at night, by the actual content of that decision . Reporter right. The mood on the ground, i would best describe it as anxious. Thats everyone. That is just folks who have never been to a protest here, protesters, Law Enforcement. Everyones anxious. We spent some time in two different churches yesterday morning. Everyone we talked to, regardless of race, age, i said the same thing, Everyone Wants this to be over. Everyone wants the decision to be shared. So this xhungtd can go ahead and start the process of rebuilding itself and healing and doing all those things, trying to return to some semblance of normalcy. I would describe it as anxious. I would say, though, that just in this area, again, were in clayton. Clayton is the county seat here. Ferguson is 15, 20 minutes away. Those protests you saw last time up and down west florissant, thats about 20 minutes from where we are right now. The protests weve been seeing, by and large, have been protests outside the ferguson Police Department. Businesses there board up. I would say between 50 and 60 of the businesses in that part of ferguson are boarded up. Open but boarded up, nonetheless. Here in clayton, you dont see as many businesses. There have been a number of businesses that shut down today in anticipation of a business but not as many businesses boarded up. It is going to be interesting to see the shape of tonights protest because this is something that weve observed over the past five or six days. You know, last time, for folks who were here, who covered the protest in the wake of the shooting, i mean, you saw a lot of these popup protests. You know, youd see one protest, you know, at 60, 70 people. Then 30 or 40 minutes another, another protest would pop up a mile away. This time around, apparently the protests themselves are going to be very organized. Thats what were hearing. Theyre going to be very organized. And its also not to be lost, i know weve been talking about this, but there have been a number of conversationings. I was told by captain johnson a couple days ago, there have been at least a half dozen conversations between the largest protest organizers and Law Enforcement. So, it will be interesting to see what that might mean for protests. Its also interesting to note that captain johnson would not rule out, once again using tear gas if the situation warranted or rubber bullets as well. That was one of the rules of engagement the two sides could not agree upon. Craig, i want you to stick with us. Lets go back to amanda in ferguson. As craig was saying, theyll announce their decision in the next few hours. Are you there on the ground. Is there any movement as of right now . Reporter as of right now its still quiet, but people are still at work. We should expect things to pick up maybe later this afternoon early evening. Nearby jennings, the School District did close down for today and tomorrow preemptively because they dont have any bus system. They were worried children would be walking to and from school and potentially in harms way. Now, not only is this a hardship on families, kind of scrambling for child care, but also leads to the potential we have an entire high school of young kids, young teenagers who are not in school right now. Many of whom who have families that are working and that means they might not be caught up in school, might join any kind of protest. As of right now, its still quiet on the streets. Amanda, craig, lisa, eugene, thank you very much. Much more on the legal aspect of this breaking news next as the cycle rolls on. Revolutionizing an industry can be a tough act to follow, but at xerox weve embraced a new role. Working behind the scenes to provide companies with services. Like helping hr departments manage benefits and pensions for over 11 million employees. Reducing document costs by up to 30 . And processing 421 billion dollars in accounts payables each year. Helping thousands of companies simplify how work gets done. Hows that for an encore . With xerox, youre ready for real business. Hows that for an encore . Yyou would need like a bunch of those to clean this mess. Then ill use a bunch of them. What are you doing . Dish issues . Get cascade complete. One pac cleans better than six pacs of the bargain brand combined. Cascade. Now thats clean. From San Francisco to silicon valley, Boston Private Bank works with all kinds of people who are innovating, building, contributing individuals, business owners, private partnerships, nonprofits, families planning their financial futures. People like you. If you want the individual attention and expertise your financial needs deserve, this is your time. This is your private bank. Theyre praying for an indictment and theyre tlig to put the faith in the Justice System that it will work for their child, too, equally, like it will work for everybody else. And if there is no indictment, the federal government is investigating the matter, so they will want to know if there are any federal charges. If not, then the only remedy they will have left is a legal civil matter. So, we are going to explore every possible legal avenue to get them some sense of justice. They greatly dont want to have their childs death be in vein. They want people to help them stand up, to change the system, not just to make noise, but to make a difference, to make a change, so this doesnt happen to anybody else child. Were back with more breaking news here this afternoon on the ferguson, missouri, case. We expect a grand jury decision today. Lets go right now to nbc news legal analyst, lisa bloom, and matt miller, former top aide to attorney general eric holder. Good day to you both. Matt, lets pick up on the point there that the brown family attorney was just raising in that interview with msnbcs joy reid, that even as we await this grand jury decision, the Justice Department has been conducting its own civil rights investigation, its own review of Police Conduct there, in addition to, of course, the prospect of a civil suit, which is a private party suit that has a lower standard of proof. Your thoughts on all of those Different Cases and how they intersect and what your old boss, attorney general eric holder, has been doing on this this week here. I think when you start with what the Justice Department is doing, in their two cases, youre likely to see different outcomes. First in their investigation into the shooting itself and whether thats a civil rights crime. I think youre very unlikely to see a case brought there. Its always been you dont you dont think, just to make that clear, you dont think based on what is known publicly, that the doj, civil rights investigation goes very far here . Thats right. Its always been a very heavy standard. You have to show intent, that the officer knew he was committing more force than was called for or that he was intentionally violating Michael Browns civil rights. Thats a very tough legal standard. Whether the departments hiring practices have been appropriate. Whether theyre disproportionately arresting or stopping or using force against africanamericans. And i think what youll see eventually a package of reforms. Maybe not in the next few months, but certainly in the coming months, significant reforms to that Police Department. Lisa bloom, i remember sitting with you and talking through the Trayvon Martin trial in microscopic piece by piece. I know how you, as a longtime practicing attorney, can come up with this evidence and come up your own theory of the case. Im sure youve gone through the evidence publicly available in this Michael Brown situation. What is your theory of this case right now . Well, you know whats so sickening to me is that there are six eyewitnesss who saw this incident with their own two eyes. I mean, that alone is rare, to have that many eyewitnesss. Those six eyewitnesss who are africanamerican and white say that mike brown was shot with his hands up in the universal signal of surrender at the time the fatal shots hit his head and the top of his head. Now, Darren Wilson is responsible for every bullet he fired. Clearly there was an althouercan at the car, and there are different stories about what happened there. It seems there is a coalesce ens of eyewitness testimony that after that, mike brown is running away from the officer. Tiffany mitchell says his hands were up at the time. Crenshaw says his hands were up at time he was shot. So do a number of other people. Thats what i cant get past. When i talk about the Trayvon Martin case and what an injustice that was, this also seems worse because were only deciding if there is probable cause to charge Darren Wilson. Were only talking about the absolute lowest legal threshold we have in our system. And there have been months and months of debate and agonizing of the grand jury about whether theres just probable cause. It seems were taking a giant step backwards. We dont know whether or not there will be charges here and we dont know all the pieces of evidence that were presented to the grand jury. I want to go back to you on attorney general holders involvement here. We know we released a video with calm. Also there were reports that he was displeased with governor jay nixons governor to declare a state of emergency and activate the National Guard. How directly involved has attorney general holder been here and how much in communication has he been with local officials on the ground in preparation for this decision . The way local officials have handled the crowd and making mistakes because they havent consulted with the Justice Department and even when they consulted with the Justice Department and flat out not taken their advice. Hopefully, if this verdict does come down in a way that upsets the community and we see people take to the streets, hopefully, of course, theyre nonviolent. But if the situation is enflamed, lets hope that the department of justice officials who have been on the ground since the summer, the people from the Community Relation service, lets hope that the state officials are coordinating with them, theyre listening to them because there are a number of best practices they can bring to bear that hopefully will calm the situation. We certainly dont need to see another repeat of what happened in the summer where the Police Presence actually made things much worse when they should have made it better. I want both of you to please stay with us. I want to bring back Eugene Oneill and lisa green here. Lisa, we talked about civil the civil option here. We just played benjamin crump, the Michael Brown attorney talking about that. You heard lisa talk about the probable cause standard. What is the civil standard in wrongful death suit and why is that important regardless of what happens today or tomorrow . Lisa first. It opens the opportunity for the family to seek justice, to keep the case around, remind people of the injustice that they surely will feel will be the case if the grand jury votes a no true bill. The standard is much lower. Youre going before the jury to find civil recourse and that can include money damages, query whether thats possible here. Youre impanelling a group of jurors who youre pointing out toure, this is the interplay. Youre pointing out while the fact a no true bill or nonindictment doesnt determine that outcome, youre going to get jurors who then say, i heard this was not he was cleared. Indeed. Eugene, we have unconfirmed reports from other News Organization that officer Darren Wilson has been in negotiations to resign if he is not indicted. Do you think, sir, it is fair this man may lose his job in the event he is not indicted here . I think you dont have a right to a job. You dont have a constitutional right to a job. And under the circumstances, when somebodys killed, i think that has to be looked at very carefully. And even if its technically legally justified, is it in the best interest of him and the town that he continue in the employment. So, there could very well be a good ending in that. And then by him not voluntarily leaving, just to circle back on the civil case, its important to say also in a civil case, officers have whats called qualified immunity. They also have a tremendous amount of leeway on the civil case, not just on the civil case. Which is so important when you want to talk about Police Reform and the large footprint the police have. We shouldnt ignore these realities. When you send the police out there, they have a tremendous amount of protection against criminal and even civil liability and culpability. I wanted to get your thoughts, eugene, on the dialogue that has unfolded between the police and the community in the wake of the events in august. Theres a list of rules of engagement, some of which have been agreed upon between protesters and the unified command. Is that important . Is that going to be helpful in helping keep the calm in the wake of this decision . Yeah, i think the most important thing is humanizing both sides versus dehumanizing both sides, which is why the whole militaristic approach is not something you want to choose initially. The more people can be face to face, the more people can hear each other out, the less likely it is that both sides will get so antagonistic and so demonizing. I guess the great concern thats always been there is the people in the town may have one design and people that come from out of town may have another. Youll find that where people can establish a rapport, theres this facetoface dialogue, thats the most effective tool. All things being equal. I want to bring lisa bloom back in the conversation. We had craig on a moment ago and he said there are some concerns that theyve maybe prepared even too much for this decision. You have the governor calling for a state of emergency. You have National Guard troops deployed there on the ground. What is your take on that . Do you feel like that has caused too much concern at this too early on even . I think this community has been disrespected from the very beginning. They were disrespected when mike browns body lay in the street for more than four hours. His blood literally running down the sidewalk. They were disrespected when Darren Wilsons name wasnt released, instead they released a video purporting to be of mike brown. The Police Officer saying this was relevant to Darren Wilsons decision and then saying it wasnt. The Police Officer not having to do an incident report on the shooting of a citizen. All of these leaks that have come, which have been proDarren Wilson throughout the last few months. No leaks that have been positive to the mike brown side. Now, of course, a state of emergency when the protests have been 99 peaceful, i think all of this is a slap in the face to the community. I think these protesters are the latest in a long line of historic american protests that brought us womens sufficienter a suffrage, the end of the vietnam war, and i think these folks should be celebrated, not vilified worthy of the National Guard and all these police tactics. Rules of engagement, really, thats the term were hearing as if were at war with our own community . I think its outrageous. Lisa bloom, matt miller, eugene odonnell, thank you. Next, up next live to the white house. Reaction to the developments out of ferguson this hour. Breaking news continues right here on krk xrk. Alright, so this tylenol arthritis lasts 8 hours, but aleve can last 12 hours. And aleve is proven to work better on pain than tylenol arthritis. So why am i still thinking about this . How are you . Aleve, proven better on pain. Its monday. A brand new start. Your chance to rise and shine. With centurylink as your trusted technology partner, you can do just that. With our visionary cloud infrastructure, Global Broadband network and Custom Communications solutions, your business is more reliable secure agile. And with responsive, dedicated support, we help you shine every day of the week. Centurylink your link to whats next. Ring ring . Progresso its ok that your soup tastes like my homemade. Its our slow simmered vegetables and tender white meat chicken. Apology accepted. Im watching you soup people. Make it progresso or make it yourself toasty or frosty . Exactly the way you want it. Until boom, its bedtime your mattress is a battleground of thwarted desire. Enter the sleep number bed. Dont miss the ultimate sleep number week going on now. Hes the softy. His sleep number setting is 35. Youre the rock, at 60. Silent night not so silent . Elk bellow sleep numbers even got an adjustment for that. Give the gift of amazing sleep only at a sleep number store. This week only, save 50 on the ultimate limited edition bed. Know better sleep with sleep number. Americans drink 48 billion thats enough plastic bottles to stretch around the earth 230 times. Each brita filter can replace 300 of those. Clean. Clear. Brita water. Nothing is better. vo rescued. Ed. Protected. Given new hope. During the subaru share the love event, subaru owners feel it, too. Because when you take home a new subaru, we donate 250 dollars to helping those in need. Well have given 50 Million Dollars over seven years. Love. Its what makes a subaru, a subaru. Welcome back. We have new developments in ferguson. I want to go right to craig melvin outside the courthouse. Are you with us . Reporter yeah, i got you. What can you tell us . Reporter the unified command, unified command we saw last time, unified command has been activated, also set up. This, of course, the umbrella Law Enforcement group that is going to oversee the response to the expected protest. Its been set up in the same location as last time. As you recall, last time it was run head up by captain ron johnson. Captain johnson is still part of the unified command. This time its going to be run essentially by the chief of chief of st. Louis county police. Weve gotten official word from the st. Louis county Prosecutors Office. Again, this is just what weve been reporting here. St. Louis county Prosecutors Office saying officially the grand jury hearing Michael Brown Darren Wilson investigation has reached a decision. It will be announced later today. Details to follow. Thats the First Official communication weve gotten from the st. Louis county Prosecutors Office so far. Again, those two new bits of information. St. Louis county Prosecutors Office confirms what weve been reporting for the last couple of hours here. Also the unified command, Law Enforcement Umbrella Agency thats going to be overseeing the response has been activated. And those officers those officers are there, there on site. Im told some of the National Guard troops are there as well. Thanks for that update. We know president obama has been urging calm on the streets of ferguson. Heres what he had to say about that. Protest peaceful. This is a country that allows everybody to express their views, but using any event as an expense for violence is contrary to rule of law. We are expecting a grand jury decision in a few hours. Luke russert is at the white house. Today the white house reiterated the president s call for calm. What is the latest . Thats right, abby. The sound bite you just played saying, keep things peaceful and keep things in perspective. Our own Chris Jansing pressed white house spokesman josh earnest on the possibility of would the president be around later tonight to comment publicly about a decision in order to try and push forward some calm, if that was, in fact, needed. Take a listen to his response. I think, you know, his interview with abc, the president delivered a pretty forceful message about his views. Those individuals in reactions to the grand jurys decision that want to protest should do so peacefully. And he cited the words of mr. Browns parents who indicated the proper way to remember and pay tribute to their sons memory is for people to express their views peacefully. That is a viewpoint that the president wholeheartily embraces. Reporter thats obviously the president s viewpoint. We do not know whether or not hell make that viewpoint publicly from a statement from the white house but it remains on the table a possibility. Certainly something to look on as this has been such a national conversation. If the president were to weigh in tonight, that would be extremely significant. Luke russert at the white house. Thank you so much. Lets now bring in strategist at ske knickerbocker. How much is the white house and eric hold other line for what happens tonight . Eric holder has been paying attention to this, running point for the administration. Theyre paying close attention. Dont think we should look past the responsibility that mayor knowles and Governor Nixon have here. Theyre responsible for trying to heal the wounds as well. It will be interesting to see how they react because i think the last time when they broke out in august, their response was very slow. They looked like they were uncaring. I think people felt like basically no one was listening to them. That there was you know, no one in the State Government actually cared about the fact this young man was murdered, was in the middle of the street for hours. You had this police force come in. It was essentially they were the targets. And i think that hopefully jay nixon and the mayor of ferguson have done some work to kind of ease that. I havent really seen much evidence of that. And you make an important point because there really are three phases to this. Theres the underlying incident, tragic loss of life. Theres the Legal Process, how that is being deltd with and a way that inspires any confidence, uniformity and fairness. Third, the ongoing question how the state, monopoly of force, what has been dealing with mostly not exclusively, but mostly been legal, lawabiding protests. When you look at the policy piece, doug, as someone who knows Washington Well and worked in congress, members of congress were critical of that third piece of that Law Enforcement response. Do you think folks in congress will be watching over the coming days and where is the reaction to that piece specifically . I think they will be watching closely. You saw everyone certainly democrats but even rand paul who came out, and i respect him for this, and i give him props for coming out after the build up and criticizing the response from the police there. And i think that there will be a close monitorization of what happened following the decision and figuring out, is there a better way to deal with a build up of Police Forces in cities . What can they what can be done about hiring practices inside of Police Forces . I mean, ferguson is a majority black city. And the police force is overwhelmingly white. So you know, i think looking at those practices, i know the Justice Department is going to be looking at that, but i think certainly Congress Taking a step, holding hearings, is a wise move. And i hope that the new republican majority takes steps to try to look at these issues. As to what you and both ari are both talking about here is this situation is actually bigger than Michael Brown. That there are folks who were protesting in foeerguson and feeling this situation throughout the country who wanted changes in how we are related to, how black and brown communities are related to by their Police Forces. We talk about militarization, we talk about community policing, we talk about body cameras and stop and frisk and other sorts of things, we played sound of ben crump earlier this hour saying that folks want this childs death to not be in vain. They want changes to the system. Do you think we can really get a different relationship, a changed relationship, with the American Police force . Im deeply skeptical of that. I would hope so but this has been going on for hundreds of years in terms of the sense certainly among africanamericans that people in Law Enforcement and Larger Authority figures dont care about us. And dont care about the fact that our you know, dont care about our lives. And i think that this larger i think youre seeing in this country a growing sense among everyone that theres this deep frustration with institutions. Police, government, et cetera. This is something that africanamericans have been feeling for years and years. So, i would hope so, but, you know, i just havent seen a real commitment by folks from across the country to really deal with it on a long, sustained basis and not just deal with a crisis moment and then forget about it. I think thats so well said here, doug. Theres a reason why ferguson was a National Story because it did touch on all of the issues that you and ari and toure are talking about here. Theres also an economic piece. Theres a piece around inequality that i think, you know, really a lot of people saw similar circumstances in their own backyard, even without the specific case of what happened in ferguson. As we know, members of congress dont always view events the way that most of the American Public view events. Do you think that members view this as a national issue, as something that requires national change, or are they viewing this as a fergusonspecific issue . I think it depends on what members youre talking about. I think the Congressional Black Caucus feels this is a national issue. I think congressional hispanic cauc caucus. Other members, not just limited to the ethnic caucuses, but, you know, its really its going to be interesting to see over time whether or not congress does forget about this or really act on it. And i think that youre looking i think youre looking at certain things coming up in congress, whether it has to do with sentencing reform, voting reform, all of these issues that gets to underlying sense among people in these communities that no one karsz about them or listening to them. If congress does deal with that, i think thats a welcome step. Doug, thank you very much. Really appreciate it. Thanks a lot. Another big story broke today. Chuck hagel out at defense. That is next. When youve only have one hand, youre not doing anything as fast as you used to. Do you need help . What is that . Swiffer dusters. I can extend it so i dont have to get on the step stool. Its like a dirt magnet just like my kids. I think swiffer definitely gave me some of that time back. So you can see like right here i can just. You know, check my policy here, add a car, ah speak to customer service, check on a claim. You know, all with the ah, tap of my geico app. Oh, thats so cool. Well, i would disagree with you but, ah, that would make me a liar. No dude, youre on the jumbotron whoa. Ah. Yeah, pretty much walked into that one. Geico anywhere anytime. Just a tap away on the geico app. This is the equivalent of the and this is one soda a day over an average adult lifetime. But theres a better choice. Drink more brita water. Clean, refreshing, brita. A man who doesnt stand still. But jim has afib, Atrial Fibrillation an irregular heartbeat, not caused by a heart valve problem. That puts jim at a greater risk of stroke. For years, jims medicine tied him to a monthly trip to the clinic to get his blood tested. But now, with onceaday xarelto®, jims on the move. Jims doctor recommended xarelto®. Like warfarin, xarelto® is proven effective to reduce afibrelated stroke risk. But xarelto® is the first and only onceaday prescription blood thinner for patients with afib not caused by a heart valve problem, that doesnt require regular blood monitoring. So jims not tied to that monitoring routine. Gps proceed to the designated route. Not today. For patients currently well managed on warfarin, there is limited information on how xarelto® and warfarin compare in reducing the risk of stroke. Xarelto® is just one pill a day taken with the evening meal. Plus, with no known dietary restrictions, jim can eat the Healthy Foods he likes. Dont stop taking xarelto®, rivaroxaban, unless your doctor tells you to. While taking xarelto®, you may bruise more easily and it may take longer for bleeding to stop. Xarelto® may increase your risk of bleeding if you take certain medicines. Xarelto® can cause serious bleeding, and in rare cases, may be fatal. Get help right away if you develop unexpected bleeding, unusual bruising, or tingling. If you have had spinal anesthesia while on xarelto®, watch for back pain or any nerve or muscle related signs or symptoms. Do not take xarelto® if you have an artificial heart valve or abnormal bleeding. Tell your doctor before all planned medical or dental procedures. Before starting xarelto®, tell your doctor about any conditions such as kidney, liver, or bleeding problems. Jim changed his routine. Ask your doctor about xarelto®. Onceaday xarelto® means no regular blood monitoring, no known dietary restrictions. For information and savings options, download the xarelto® Patient Center app, call 1888xarelto, or visit goxarelto. Com. We are awaiting the grand jury decision of whether to indict ferguson Police Officer Darren Wilson. Well bring that when it happens. Pentagon chief chuck hagel is out and president is looking for a new administrative leader. I have today submitted my resignation as secretary of defense. Its been the greatest privilege of my life. He has helped americas leadership around the world. You have always given me your honest advice and council. You have. When it has mattered most behind closed doors you have always given it to me straight. For that i will always be grateful. Both defense secretary and general attorney new nominee. Will have to get through broughtal senate confirmation. For more on these fights ahead, lets bring in kevin, executive editor as defense one magazine. Thanks for being with us. Many pleasure. You conducted an Approval Rating poll. Only getting 26 for hagel. Why are people so down often him. Well chuck has been a problem before he came to office whether he was up to the job intellectually and as a leader. He was out of office for several years. He was a popular u. S. Senator but went on the outs with his own party and got a tough grilling from congress before he got to office. When he got to office he followed in the foot steps of two men that for gates was revered but for pineda, he was considered a real grandfather of the building. And in hagels time there was larger doubts for the strategy for isis and syria the u. S. Was behind the ball when it came to these crisis. I think that poll reflects the doubt of the administration as well as in hagel himself. I think a lot of that was lesser known to the rest of the public. This resignation caught many of us off guard. President obama has had a rough time with defense secretaries and for whatever reason has ended badly. Does this announcement further highlight a divide between the white house and the joint chiefs at the pentagon. I dont think the relationships have ended badly. They are still respected men, in charge of National Security. I understand they have had their book criticizing the way the white house has run National Security strategy. When it comes to the joint chiefs or second hagelu secreta hagel, im not buying that. President obama set a high bar for military intervention saying isis would need to have Nuclear Weapons to have troops on the ground. He has kept the troops close to his heart saying he doesnt want to send our men in without a plan of what happens next. How does the United States go into this crisis, create chaos and somehow not owning it, being wrapped into the middle east, again, in the same way. So there is talk that hagel was also disappointed with the white house straet edgy. House strategy. This is more of a split between what hagel and obama wants rather than the chiefs of. It is it a firing at a very awkward time for this sort of move. I think back to when secretary hagel said isis was a imminent threat to every interest we have, which is not the position the white house was taking at that time, even now, do you think that is sort of a big part of this problem . No. I think ha wthat was a bid of word game at the time. I think republicans were trying to trap the white house into saying whether they believe this was a threat and whether they took isis series. So some came out saying it is a imminent threat to u. S. Interests. Taking great pains to say since then, much more specifically, this is a threat to the region and a conflict the u. S. Must be involved but no not a threat to the homeland generically, yet but could be. All right, really appreciate it. Well be back after this. Ent. For practically just your signature, you could drive home for the holidays in a germanengineered volkswagen. Like the sporty, advanced new jetta. And the 2015 motor trend car of the year allnew golf. If youre wishing for a new volkswagen this season. Just about all you need is a finely tuned. Pen. Hurry in and get zero due at signing, zero down, zero deposit, and zero first months payment on select new volkswagen models. Yyou would need like a bunch of those to clean this mess. Then ill use a bunch of them. What are you doing . Dish issues . Get cascade complete. One pac cleans better than six pacs of the bargain brand combined. Cascade. Now thats clean. Having a perfectly nice day, when out of nowhere a pickup truck slams into your brand new car. One second it wasnt there and the next second. Boom youve had your first accident. Now you have to make your first claim. So you talk to your Insurance Company and. Boom youre blindsided for a second time. They wont give you enough money to replace your brand new car. Dont those people know youre already shaken up . Liberty mutuals new car replacement will pay for the entire value of your car plus depreciation. Call and for drivers with accident forgiveness, Liberty Mutual wont raise your rates due to your first accident. Switch to Liberty Mutual insurance and you could save up to 423 dollars. Call Liberty Mutual for a free quote today at see Car Insurance in a whole new light. Liberty mutual insurance. I have a cold with terrible chest congestion. Better take something. Theraflu severe cold doesnt treat chest congestion. Really . New alkaseltzer plus day powder rushes relief to your worst cold symptoms plus chest congestion. Oh, what a relief it is. Stay with msnbc tonight as we await the decision from the grand jury in st. Louis county. That does it for the cycle. Now with alex wagner starts now. The grand jury has reached a decision in the Michael Brown case. We are awaiting the nounsment regarding that decision. Jay nixon will meet with members of the clergy in ferguson in the next hour. The twelvemember grand jury which has been meeting since august, reconvened today, todays decision coming after many are question whether the grand jury was the best option in the first place. Offed all Available Evidence but no recommendations on what charges to consider. Usually the prosecutor has a very specific case against the criminal defendant but in this case he is allowing evidence both for and against an indictme indictment. The brown family arguing the process is unfair. I think this process is unlike anything ive ever seen in my 20 years of practice. Why you come in with charges, its probable cause, seven people said his hands