We cant keep our country closed down for years, and we have to do something. And hopefully that wont be the case, john, but it very well could be the case. We cant have our whole country out. Cant do it. The country wont take it. It wont stand it. Its not sustainable. Now there is Science Behind waiting longer to reopen in many places. The president pushing obviously thor way. As we have seen more states reopen, we can actually assess in realtime, and it is a grim process, believe me, but we can assess what this does when you reopen in different places. We are seeing spikes in different parts of the country. This chart is courtesy of the New York Times. You see new york on the left, the epicenter of the breakout in a state that has been under these stayathome orders. The case number, though, is coming down, even in that hard hit area on the left that is the slope you see. Now look to the right. Thats the rest of the nation, which is confronting a growing surge. You can see the curve of new cases in new york down very clearly. And you see the rest of the curve up. And lets be clear. Most of the people in most of the country dont want to live in what new york looked like over the past few weeks, and yet the red arrow you see is a sign to varying degrees of what we may be in for. This is real. This is serious. This is what were facing. Lets take a look at one example of a populous state. Not the same as new york, but has a lot of people. Has some big metropolitan areas. Were looking at texas. Today we are getting a little extra insight into how texas is figuring this out. Its a tough call, as weve covered for governors in every single place. But there is some leaked audio. This is a Conference Call with legislators in that state. This is state level policy making. And you have the governor there, greg abbott, who basically says to the people who hes working with that he admits the virus will continue to be spreading and thus potentially increasing after texas reopens. I want you to know, because we always want you to know what youre seeing and hearing, the source of this audio was put out by a progressive organization, that is to say probably pretty critical of Governor Abbott in general. What youre looking at looks to be quite valid because we checked with the Governors Office isnt disputing what youre about to hear, that he said this. Pretty much every scientific and medical report shows that whenever you have a reopening, whether you want to call it a reopening of business or just a reopening of study in the aftermath of Something Like this, that actually will lead to an increase in spread. Its almost ipso facto. Ipso facto, automatic. And texas is seeing the case of these cases rise as it reopens various parts of life, including in the way theyre doing it in that state, mall, movie theater, dinin and restaurants. Unlike the president , some of them are publicly acknowledging the tradeoffs. Others are holding back on fully reopening. There is a range of ways to do it. This is tough. I want to also tell you that the president is meeting with a different governor, this one from iowa, a state that didnt go very far from shutting down to begin with. Begin, it is gramming with the consequences. They have real life and death consequences. Iowas latest numbers show the rate of infection growing with over 10,000 cases to date. The states meat packing plants were forced to close because there were 1,600 workers who were sick across four plants in the state. This is obviously very real life for everyone who works in that kind of plant, who knows someone there, lives with someone there. These are all real decisions, real policy tradeoffs. We were actually speaking, again, because weve been trying to keep up with this on the ground around the country with the mayor of sioux city, iowa, one of the hardest hit places. Take a listen. A lot of people want the get out, get moving, get things going, and a lot of others are very scared about what the results will be if we go too quickly. So what are you telling your constituents day to day right now . Be vigilant, stay at home if you possibly can, wear a mask, continue to wash your hands, continue to do everything you can to stay safe. To begin our coverage tonight, yes joined by democratic congressman joan venby of massachusetts. They have a mandatory face mask order going into effect there today. Dr. Megan ran anyand professor of medicine at Brown University and katty kay, washington anchor for bbc news. Thanks to all of you for joining. Doctor, how do you contrast just two leaders we showed there, the president basically playing down the idea that there is a tradeoff to be made, saying, hey, its inevitable. Weve got to get back to work, and the Texas Governor in a moment that he may have thought wasnt going to be on television admitting that when you reopen, your infection rate goes up . So i think there are two important things to take away from that, ari. The first is this virus is not behind us. It is not in the rear view mirror. We have not vanquished it. It is still amongst us. The Texas Governor is correct. We are going to see increased spread. That said, most Public Health professionals are not calling as trump claims for a forever shutdown of our country. We, like everyone, are anxious to protect the mental and emotional and Economic Health of americans. What we are asking for is a sciencedriven reopening where we have adequate testing, we have adequate protective equipment we have adequate access to hospital beds. And the fear is when we reopen, based purely on emotion and not based on science, without providing that scientific underpinning for the reopening, we are putting lives of americans at risk. Congressman . Wholehearted by agree with the doctor, right . And that should be i think the stance of most of our policymakers at this point. It is that we let science drive the day. Look, this is what dr. Fauci said at the very beginning of this crisis. The virus is going to respond to science, not hope and aspiration. Look, i would love nothing more than to return to normal. I think all of us would. But the reality is these decisions have life and death consequences and you cant be playing around with matters of life and death. Last point real quick. I was in chelsea, massachusetts yesterday. One of the communities hardest hit of my community in the country. I have never seen a longer line for food in my entire life, in all of my travels and my time living in the developed world. The impact that this is having on our communities that is going to be felt for years is very real. The idea that policymakers would somehow do something that would allow for this to spike up again is just unconscionable. Youre talking about what youre seeing in your work, services out with the people you represent. And on that point, congressman, take a listen to some of the ontheground report we are having from how hard hit people are in small businesses. I have delved into my seays account to pay for my employees, and i will continue to do so. Half my people still cant even get paid from the state. Weve done everything on our end. Its really hard because i dont know when ill get another job, and i also dont know if ill get unemployment. So its been a very difficult time. As youre saying, congressman, its very hard for so many people out here. Im going repeat myself as we do sometimes in the news. These are all people who played by the rules, who went to work, paid their taxes, did their jobs, all of that. And 30 million plus out of a job not because they werent doing a good job, not because they oh, they took a bet on a business that just didnt work. No. Because of this macro health crisis. Its none of our dos. What do you see as the ethical obligation then of government, of congress when you see these stories how hearth hard it is for people and yet youre saying the science requires even more hardship before we get out from under . So lets be clear about a couple of point theres, right . Its not so much that they didnt do anything wrong. Its that they did exactly what they were supposed to do or what they have to do. The reason why chelsea has an infection rate from this virus from known cases, right, and thats a massive underestimate, but as of last week was not nine times higher than the state average. Why . Its largely immigrant population, a higher percentage of essential workers, the folks that make the rest of our society run. Yeah, a lot of them live there. Its the fact that youve got multigenerational households. Its language barriers. Its the exploitation that we actually see across so many segments of our society and then we turn around and say oh, im sorry, you dont even get access to the health care you need in order to prevent the spread of this virus. So what is the ethical response . One, there could not be clearer call to make sure everyone gets access to health care in country, and its not just insurance coverage. That means you get treated and youre not going to face bankruptcy. It means we address the structure. Go ahead. Since you bring that up, and we want to get into that, and then im going to bring katty kay in. I want to bring detail into this. Youve got a bill here with about 30 other members of congress, and you basically are saying with millions stripped of Health Coverage around jobs, the job crisis, House Democrats want emergency expansion of medicare and medicaid. So specifically, what are you trying to do here . Were trying to make sure that people get access to the health care that they need when they need it. Its a global pandemic. And this shot should not be earth shattering. Ill defer to the doctor here. But like dear god, what are we supposed to be doing . So the idea behind this deal, pretty simple, if youre unemployed, you get sign upped for medicare. And we have a drastic expansion of medicaid too. So make sure that every Single Person is going to be able to access the health care that they need to stop the spread of the virus. Because if there is one essential lesson of this moment is that i cannot guarantee my own health if somebody else might be sick and spreading this virus undetected. So my Health Depends on yours and your Health Depends on mine. So lets make sure were all healthy. Thats the goal. Understood. We did a Little Medicine here. We did a little government. Katty kay, i come to you for the journalism. Your views on all the above. Look, i think americas approach to reopening has got to be this balance. Everywhere is dealing with the same thing, between protecting peoples livelihoods and making sure the people are as safe as possible when it comes to the risk from the virus. I think what is unique about the United States is that this reopening process looks so haphazard. That different states are doing Different Things and it doesnt seem to make very much sense. It certainly doesnt make very much scientific sense. There is no reason behind what is doing. Why is georgia opening tattoo parlors . Why is texas opening shopping malls . And when you look at some of the countries who have done this before the u. S. , its very methodical. So italy, for example, has Just Announced that it wont open bars and restaurants until the reproductive rate of this virus is at 0. 5. So each person only infects half another person. It woken open museums and theaters until the rate is down to zero. I think people would be reassured to know there was Scientific Method behind what was taking place. That would then give people the confidence to go into the places of business, because at the moment, frankly, even the states that are opening up are finding that most people dont feel confident about going back to visit those businesses. Understood. Katty, i also wanted to play a little bit for you of the president. You mo w. H. O. Have been following know a long before the pandemic, the president has certain places he goes. Fox news often. He does some talk radio, and he made his points in the briefing room, attacking various reports. As katty knows and viewers follow, its unusual for him to step out. He is going on network news. See going on abc. Take a look at one clip. Do you believe thats the reality were facing that lives will be lost to reopen the country . Its possible there will be some because you wont be locked into an apartment or a house or whatever it is. But at the same time, were going practice social distancing. Were going washing hands. Were going to be doing a lot of the things that weve learned to do over the last period of time. And we have to get our country back. What do you think of both what the president is arguing and as we head into the summer what he is effectively doing as campaigning, get our country back, you know, far be it from him to put the rhetoric aside for a Global Health disaster that is worth the death toll of ten plus 9 11s. But what do you think of what he is doing here, katty . Look, i think the muddle that weve seen over the last 24 hours about whether the Coronavirus Task force was going to be disbended or not is so emblematic of the president s own ambivalence about the guidelines that he himself put in place that his white house instituted. He has never really been behind them. Why didnt he tour a mask when he toured honeywell yesterday . Why has he been so anxious to say ewe got reopen . Its like he is giving with one hand and taking away with the other. He wants to be in the mode of getting the economy going and the stock market back up again that appears to be his priority. And every time he doesnt wear a mask, every time he says liberate virginia, he is undercutting the Public Health message that he is meant to be the prime proponent on. I think thats really confusing for people. Really important thanks. I want to thank katty kay and congressman kennedy for kicking us off tonight. The doctor comes back for Something Special were doing later in the hour. Ill see you soon. After the break, we have insiders now accusing Jared Kushner of fumbling the coronavirus response, detailing cronyism within his handpicked team. And what is its future after Donald Trumps own aides say it might be disbanded . And layer, well get into something you may have been thinking about, public shaming in the age of the coronavirus. It worked against mike pence. But how do you do it constructively . How do you do it in a way that helps more than it hurts . Thats a discussion were having. And later, outcry of this new deadly shooting in georgia. The victims family explaining that this individual was out for a jog unarmed. Have i the family attorney with me as a special and newsworthy guest on that important story later tonight. Im ari melber. Youre watching the beat on msnbc. He beat on msnbc. Technologies advisor. Me too. Me too. And if youre a small business, were with you. 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Get faster internet speeds with a click. Order xfi pods to your home in a snap. Or change your Xfinity Services with just a touch. All in one place. Youre only seconds away from all of that on xfinity. Com. Faster than a call. Easy as a tap. Now thats simple, easy, awesome. Who do you put in charge of the federal governments medical search . To deal with the virus . Someone with no experience in the medical field and Emergency Response whatsoever. This is something we have mentioned before but bears underscoring that the president tapped his own soninlaw who also serves as his adviser, Jared Kushner, to lead the search and development and deployment of medical supplies to fight the virus. The results are in, and many people closest to this are reporting out that he failed. Kushner tapping volunteers that also like him had no Actual Experience in the federal procurement process, in medical expertise, in the very things you need know how to do and fast. Talk about a learning curve. The Washington Post and the New York Times have both reported that the team was completely plagued and hobbled by inexperience and also mentioned a type of cronyism. Members who had literally no background in health care or procurement or what can be complex supply chain operation decision making. One volunteer revealing that they were also told along this work load to prioritize vips on their spreadsheets including fox news anchor Brian Kilmeade who called in with a tip and fox news host jean shapiro who repeatedly contacted Task Force Members until 100,000 masks were sent where . To a hospital that she personally favored. One of the volunteers also exposing all of this to the New York Times saying the nature and scale of the response seemed grossly inadequate. It was bureaucratic cycles of chaos. A team member also filing a formal complaint with the House Oversight committee that is public because the Washington Post obtained it. All of this comes as Donald Trumps virus task force, which has been rumored to be, you know, closed down, well, maybe its going to be back on. Take a look at this. These are just two days apart. Its mike pence and the task force have done a great job, but were now locking at a little bit of a different form, and that form is safety and opening. And well have a Different Group probably set up for that. I had no idea how popular the task force is until actually yesterday when i started talking about winding it done. Its done such a good job. Its a respected task force. Thats what it looks like when you contradict yourself. And the cleanup explanation is that this thing is, quote, popular. This is not a popularity contest. The misinformation that the president circulated in the virus briefings is what hobbled them which led to the discussion about ending the entire task force. Now lets also remember that this is all coming as back and forth about whether to have a task force or have public briefings or whether the reality show version was popular enough to the president s liking. It all comes amidst something that is serious as a heart attack. An insider, a vaccine expert blowing the whistle on president trump. We need strong leadership. Americans need to have all the facts. We cannot afford to silence and dismiss scientists in our country. There has never been a time in our life where their voice has been needed more. A journalist who knows her way around these issues is the Washington PostKaren Tumulty. She says its tim for Jared Kushner to go. Well find out why when were back together in 30 seconds. Con. And longer on pain than tylenol. When pain happens, aleve it. All day strong. Were back with Karen Tumulty of the Washington Post. She writes in a blunt message that, quote, we must all be saved from Jared Kushner. Why do you make that case . Well, you look at whats happening at this moment where the government stockpile of the kinds of equipment that our medical First Responders needed was running empty, the president hands this over to his soninlaw to whom hes already handed middle east peace and building the border wall and criminal justice reform. I mean, basically anything that lands on the resolute desk it seems like he hands to his soninlaw. So Jared Kushner, who has absolutely no expertise or experience in this area, brings in a bunch of people from the private sector who are coming in from Venture Capital and from management consulting. They, too, have no expertise in the kinds of equipment needed or how to procure it. And so we see the inevitable obvious thing that was going happen, which is it got totally bungled, and there was cronyism on top of that. There was a vip list where if you were a Republican Congress person or if you were a fox news host, your request and your suggestions got fast tracked. And a lot of people who were actually in the field who actually knew where to get ventilators and masks and other equipment were not getting their calls returned. Yeah, what you document is there is two interlocking problems at least, nepotism, which since the dawn of time has been viewed as something to combat against public service, public interest. And then this generalized arrogance. You can imagine a world where someone brings in the quote unquote best of the best, and they get elon musk and bill gates in here fulltime and it actually helps. But the post, the times, your piece alludes to it, this arrogant buddy list of people who werent helping. Let me read from your piece for viewers. You say americans are facing a crisis of im sorry. Thats the complaint to the white house. I want to read from your white house, number two here in your article. We are seeing now why government cannot and should not be run like a family business, you right. In normal times nepotism is merely corrupt, but in the moment such as the nightmare were living through, kit be fatal. I just want youd to build on that point. Well, nepotism, i think weve never seen a white house that runs on nepotism quite in a longtime cronyism in the way this one does. But at a moment, you know, and again, its bad government practices normally in good times. But now we have peoples lives are on the line. Not only the more than 70,000 americans who have already died of this virus, but also the people we need out there, Health Care Workers who sort of combat this. Yeah. And its just its all out in the open there. Thats the thing about it. We wanted to put a spotlight on your piece, karen. I appreciate you joining me tonight. Thanks. I really appreciate you having me. 100 . Coming up, the power of public criticism. An advocacy to change behavior for the better, from the social distancing were all experimenting with to when you who wear a mask. Its a special discussion that i think could be useful. And later, well be joined by the family attorney for the victim in that deadly georgia shooting that is getting new attention with a new video. Its an important story, well bring to it you later tonight. H, you spend less and get way more. So you can bring your vision to life and save in more ways than one. For small prices, you can build big dreams, spend less, get way more. Shop everything home at wayfair. Com theres no better story than your story. And ancestry can help you discover it. You might just find the more you learn about your Family History the more youll want to know. However, there is one thing you can be certain of. The men and women of the United States postal service. Were here to deliver cards and packages from loved ones and also deliver the peace of mind of knowing that essentials like prescriptions are on their way. Every day, all across america, we deliver for you. And we always will. Our Retirement Plan with voya gives us confidence. Yeah, they help us with achievable steps along the way. So we can spend a bit now, knowing were prepared for the future. Surprise we renovated the guest room, so you can live with us. Oooh, well. Im good at my condo. Oh. I love her condo. Nana throws the best parties. Well planned, well invested, well protected. Voya. Be confident to and through retirement. This virus is testing all of us. And its testing the people on the front lines of this fight most of all. So abbott is getting new tests into their hands, delivering the critical results they need. And until this fight is over, we. Will. Never. Quit. Because they never quit. The coronavirus pandemic is rapidly changing how people live. And its putting new pressure on personal behavior that can affect others, like when this pandemic first hit and a tennessee man was basically eyeing a business opportunity, as he viewed it, buying up 17,000 bottles of Hand Sanitizer trying to make a profit by reselling them on amazon. You may have heard about the story, which drew a huge backlash which then led him to back down, donate most of the stockpile even offer a public apology. If by my actions anyone was directly impacted and unable to get sanitizer from one of their local stores because i purchased it all, i am truly sorry for that. Now notice something here. That Public Health dilemma was not dressed by the government or the police. That man was not fined or arrested. He was basically swiftly corrected by peer pressure. Were now seeing a similar dynamic as the weather warms up and some public spaces are filling up. Some people now criticizing and trying to shame people who appear to be violating these rules both online and in person with public shaming. Then of course there are the efforts to shame the powerful. Vice president pence leave leads this virus task force. He visited the mayo Task Force Last week without wearing the required mask. But the swift shaming led him to say he was wrong and he was conspicuously wear one two days later at a ventilator plant. So shaming can work. Can even foster Public Health when deployed thoughtfully. Lets be clear. There is an obvious difference between shaming a random civilian and a very powerful official running virus response. There are also some more subtle differences that we probably need to explore between shaming, say, extreme sweeping conduct like depriving a whole neighborhood of the needed sanitizer versus overreacting to a Single Person taking a walk on the beach. Now researchers call the more enlightened version constructive shaming. Professor Jennifer Jack white is a professor in this field and notes in a few u. N. Piece that shaming an institution can be quite effective, writing the mayor of new haven recently shamed yale university, his alma mater for refusing the city use of their dormitories for medical First Responders stressing the nearby university of new haven had said yes in the first five minutes. Wait for it. Soon after, yale reversed its decision. That from the piece public shaming has only just begun and its author nyu environmental studies joins us right now. She is also the author of the book is shame necessary . And for the medical perspective, were also joined by dr. Megan ranney. Good to see both of you. Thanks for being here. Thanks for having us on, ari. Thanks a lot. So professor jaquet, let me start with you in this area. We walked through some of the example, including courtesy of you. What makes for the most effective shaming for Public Health . Yeah, thanks. I mean, this is such a fruitful time for shame, and i think we all know how common it is in our daily lives and how uncomfortable it is right now. Its really easy to shame behaviors that are clearly observable and where there is a clear transgression. So you have, you know, the gatherings of ten or more or the social distancing of six feet or more or wearing a mask as really obvious points of behavior for shaming. And i think you pointed out some people feel like shame has gone too far in some of these circumstances. There certainly are some problems there, and i dont want to minimize those, but i think there is a lot of opportunity with shaming, and youve made some of those points already. But this is a long fight and we have a lot of opportunities to deliberate. And we need to be thinking about who is leading us really into harms way aside from just our neighbors at this point in time. So i think its up to smart people like you, ari, but also, you know, a broader conversation about who do we want to shine the polite spotlight on and for what purpose, and how exactly. Right. And thats what we want to dig into. Its important what you say, particularly the nuance, and the doctor will weigh in as well. I want to look at one dramatic shaming effort that you kind of got to see to believe. It involves the grim reaper, never someone you want the see on a Florida Beach with the selfproclaimed activist in grim reaper clothing. Take a look. Daniel . Thank you. Im here today to try to make a point that we need to i think its premature that we open our beaches. I think that the danger of bringing all the people here to our area and spreading the virus, and i think its going to prolong the recovery we have. Its too soon. And its not appropriate. Thank you, daniel. Daniel is beginning his protest right now, and he is going to be at a bunch of other Walton County beaches throughout the day. Ill mention for viewers who may have just joined us, fact check, thats not literally the grim reaper, but it was someone trying to kind of dramatize this. And so i guess first the professor and then the doctor. What is the best way for people to think about what works versus overdoing it . Well, i really liked that example. Its a great one to choose. Its shaming a broad sweeping behavior rather than a particular individual. So there is no clear victim of the shaming on the other end. And it has a kind of nice artistry to it, a cleverness. Were sort of chuckling at it. So i think thats really great again for informing that kind of personal behavior. But id like to see a little more strategy in terms of bigger bang for your buck. I like howd you called out the whole state of georgia recently for opening up too soon and putting its citizens at risk. I think there is an opportunity as the congressman was saying in the last episode. Theyre wanting to push a bill through for emergency expansion of medicaid for people who have lost their job and health care and to shame i think politicians who dont support that bill in a clever way, perhaps not a grim reaper way, but something of that ilk. And that kind of broad strategy that would help maybe the nation as a whole rather than just a particular beach in florida. Doctor, what do you think . So i think the history of Public Health messaging shows that shaming or reframing it, changing social enormous is tremendously effective in changing behavior. Jeremy faust and i wrote a piece that was published in slate yesterday talking about how we can change that public messaging effectively. And a big part of it is creating a normative meaning among our communities that we expect each other to behave appropriately, that we expect each other to practice social distancing. We expect each other to wear masks. And you can think about that on the level of leadership as professor jaquet just talked about. It can be about trying the get pence or governors to demonstrate that they too wear masks whether or not theyre infected. But its also about all of us as individual communities having those discussions and reinforcing with each other that thats what we expect each other to do. You know, you can think about it with drunk driving. Back when i was a kid, drunk driving was talked about as bad, but we didnt take peoples keys away. We didnt create that kind of norm that youre expected to call an uber or let someone else drive. And those norms change thanks to public messaging, thanks to the examples of influencers and celebrities, but also thanks to the changes within the community where now we would no longer accept one of our friends get in a car after theyve had a little too much to drink. And thats what we need here too. We need to people no longer accept that people will walk out in public without a mask, or that theyll go and sit right next to each other if theyre not members of the same household. So changing the social norms are critical for creating change and protecting our country. Thinking about the history of other social movements that intersect with medical safety is a good example, doctor. And adds we quoted, professor jaquet, i thought what you wrote as well about the institution stuff is important. This shouldnt devolve into a question of people just posting pictures of other random people and beating up on people who have very Little Agency or authority right now. But when you talk about a Public Health institution, a university, the Vice President , there is a lot of avenues where it can be, as you put it, constructive. Were just starting the conversation. I suspect we will be discussing this more in the days ahead. Professor and doctor, thank you both. Thanks for having me. Appreciate. Up ahead, what Remote Working sounds like if you are a Supreme Court justice. We have some very unusual audio. But first, an important story i mentioned to you earlier tonight. I urge you to stick around for it. When we come back, we are going to do an accountability check with a news worthy guest discussing this quite disturbing video and story out of georgia. The attorney for the victims family when we return. Heres the thing about managing multiple clouds for your business. When youve got public clouds, and private clouds, and hybrid clouds things can get a bit cloudy for you. But now, theres the Dell Technologies cloud, powered by vmware. A single hub for a consistent operating experience across all your clouds. That should clear things up. And i live in san francisco, california. I have been a sales and Sales Management professional my whole career. Typical day during a work week is im working but first always going for a run or going to the gym. I love reading. 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Right at homes professional team thoughtfully selects caregivers to help with personal care, housekeeping, meals and most of all, staying engaged in life. Oh, thank you, thank you. Youre welcome. Are you ready to go . Oh, i sure am. We can provide the right care, right at home. Daddy, i found you good job. Now im gonna stay here and you go hide. Watch your favorites from anywhere in the house with the Xfinity Stream app. Free with your xfinity service. Now any room can be a tv room. Stream live tv, on demand shows and movies, even your dvr recordings. Download the Xfinity Stream app today to stream the entertainment you love. Turning now to an important story out of georgia where a killing was caught on tape. This was 25yearold ahmaud arbery. He is now dead, shot by two men while he was jogging in broad daylight on a sunday afternoon in february, and there is brandnew information about this right now because a newly released video shows part of a scuffle and the shooting. As with any story like, this we must know we do not know everything that happened before the moment youre going see in the video, which is a bit shaky. At first its hard to follow. But it also has what many experts say is key evidence. Also, before i show it to you right now, i must warn you, this is graphic and disturbing. [ gunshot ] that is the new video of this shooting. Arberys family Attorney Says the video shows that the two men there were the initiators and aggressors in the shooting, calling it a, quote, lynching. There have been no arrests in this case since this all occurred in february. Two prosecutors recused over conflicts of interest. We also reached out to the Police Department for comment on this story. Civil rights leaders pressing for an investigation now criticizing the police for inaction already in a case that essentially involves armed white assailants killing an unarmed black man in broad daylight. Now for their part, the men involved in the shooting of arbery insist that they acted legally. They say they reached their own conclusion that they believed arbery had committed robberies previously in the area. I also want you to know the first prosecutor to handle this case asserted that those men had available defenses of, quote citizens arrest and selfdefense in shooting this person. Now one of those two men, george mcmichael, told police that they basically pulled up beside arbery. The video actually appears to show the truck up ahead. It appears to be waiting while arbery was jogging towards it. The Police Report states, quote, the two men started fighting over the shotgun at which point travis fired a shot, and a second later there was a second shot. Im reading that to you because that is what the police wrote down. But now that the video is public, i want you to know it shows the first shot fired as this wrestling starts, and three shots fired overall. As the public scrutiny mounts, a new d. A. Is vowing to bring forward evidence to a grand jury for possible charges stemming from this february shooting. Now before i bring in our guest, i want you to understand one more thing. As a legal matter, going to a grand jury is not the only way to move forward. As everyone knows from every police drama youve ever seen, the Police Arrest suspects all the time without waiting to go to a grand jury. In addition, while georgia has reopened nonessential establishments like restaurants and beauty salons, the courts do remain closed due to the pandemic until at least june. Joining us now on this important story is the attorney for arberys family, s. Lee merritt. Thank you for joining me, sir. Thank you for having me. What is important for people to understand based on the available evidence, in your view, about this case . Its important to understand that for me the amount of conflict that exists in the people responsible for prosecuting this case. The reason that you have two men who have gone unarrested, uncharged, uninvestigated really after murdering a young man is because of the close Law Enforcement ties of one of the assailants. Your view is that the polices apparent lack of interest or inaction in what was a shooting in broad daylight, an Obvious Police matter with two identified suspects is because there is some provable bias in the links between Law Enforcement, the d. A. , and these individuals . Absolutely. Its obviously if the shoes were on the other foot, and i hate that his father had to say, this but if a dad went out and killed a young white jogger that didnt have Law Enforcement tie. That would be under at the very least arrested. The idea that these men still remain at large, that the Law Enforcement community has said there is no evidence that they committed any crime at all is really scary for the black community of south georgia and across the country. Stay with me. I want to bring in for this discussion marq claxton who is an expert who we had on the intersection of these issues. He was an nypd detective, a Law Enforcement analyst and also has worked on these civil rights issues after leaving the force. What do you see on the video, mr. Claxton . What i see is i think what everyone is seeing. I have to agree to agree with y obscene, troubling, disturbing. There are many elements that are painful to watch. Viewer discretion is definitely advised for watching that video. But the second part that i understand to be true is that its its painfully and troubling familiar, familiar in the sense of the investigation and prosecution tactics at this point is a very familiar pattern that appears to be playing itself out, which gives people a tremendous amount of angst. I have to agree with attorney merritt, thats always, because of the incestuous nature of the relationship, there is always a problem when you have Police Involved or Law Enforcementrelated individuals involved in these cases and prosecutors trying to oversee them. It is obvious based on documentation, very limited documentation thats been made public up to this point that what we are witnessing, what we have witnessed up to this point is really the beginning, the basis, the making of a continued coverup it would have been quite successful if there had not been some disclosure of this videotape. Its familiar to those of you who have seen this before, there are many cases like this before, but this is very disturbing, and the video really, really emphasizes that point. As you mentioned, were working off the evidence, and in a case like this, we dont have all of the evidence. There is also, though, partial transcript of the call to 911. Detective, i want to read this to you. The caller is identified as saying, quote, hes running down the treat. Dispatch says, thats fine, i need to know what he was doing wrong. Was he just on the premises . The caller says hes been caught on camera a bunch at night. Its kind of an ongoing thing. Detective claxton, how does that call, assuming it can be validly corroborated as made by one of the individuals involved in the shooting, how does that call get evaluated, in your view, of whether this was potentials they defend a justified shooting, or not . That call, or at least the transcript for that call should been included as evidence it is one piece of evidence, and what you hope to do, whether its te telephonic evidence, et cetera, and you try to recreate what has occurred and put together the pieces of the puzzle. And you can make an informed decision about proceeding as far as prosecution is concerned. Whats troubling here is that, in spite of the fact that the initial District Attorney barnhill, had obtained this information, im sure the call, obviously the videotape, had conducted interviews, ultimately decided that he would recuse himself. He still felt compelled before recusing himself to offer a legal opinion on the case itself, and the letter speaks in terms of twins tiffs. Its concrete in his mind about the innocence of those individuals in this particular case. Those are the types of things that have people very troubled, very concerned and smelling something that doesnt smell right here. Finally, mr. Merritt, obviously race hangs over all of this, stacy abrams and joe biden weighing in, biden of course the presumption ink nominee in ways in on what is a local case with national implications, saying, quite crisply, that arbery was killed in cold blood. Your response . Well, i appreciate mr. Biden weighing in on this. Were way past swift in this case. I have to strongly agree with him. We are way past swift, because this happened 23rd of 2020. The Georgia Bureau of investigations can go and send out officers. They dont have to wait for the court to open up. The fbi believes theres hate crime implications all over this case, and all those actions can happen right now. Understood. And it is, as both of you have said, quite disturbing. We mentioned we contacted the police for contact. We included the defenses as stated and the Police Report of those individuals. This is definitely a story we will stay on. So thank you both for your time and expertise. Thank you, ari. Thank you. We will be right back. Thank you. We will be right back. Gettir just cant wait. To help, were giving our customers up to 90 days to make their first payment. Shop online from the comfort of your couch, and get your car with touchless delivery to keep you safe. And for even Greater Peace of mind, all carvana cars come with a sevenday return policy. 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What the ftc has said when the subject matter ranging into the topic, then the call is transformed, and its it would have been a lowed you heard that right. It brings me to lil wayne lyric, two words you never hear, flush and watch them go down the drain, quick. That does it for us. Good night. \s \s good evening. From new york ive steve kornacki. President trump reversed course today on the most public aspect of the administrations response it was only yesterday, that the president made the surprising announcement he intended to wind downed the official task force, but today, less than 24 hou