Transcripts For MSNBCW The Beat With Ari Melber 20191231

Zelensky would do after the phone call. Start a Major Investigation into the bidens. Donald trump busted for making good on his infamous claim that he would take foreign help for 2020. Impeachment is imperative. If the president committed crimes in office. So you say impeach . So that is a thing. The case for bribery is straightforward. Everyone knows bribery is impeachable. Thats why we held up the money. We do that all the time with foreign policy. Lets be clear, what you just described is a quid pro quo. Tell me what rule, law or statute has been violated by the president. You want to point to statutes, thats not required. It is unlawful to solicit or receive any foreign help, which includes things of value. I think what i think for a citizen set off some alarms. Because thats obviously shady . Yeah. Its pretty damning evidence. An incredibly damning admission that you cant trust the president not to commit crimes. It goes right to the heart of the issue of bribery. Its perfectly wrong. Its bribery. A week unlike any other in the trump era. Nine different Trump Administration insiders who joined 12 other witnesses who now provided over 30 hours of testimony. Was there a quid pro quo . The answer is yes. Here is the most important shift in all the testimony to date. Sondland moves over, suddenly saying yes, this was bribery. He was being involved in a domestic political errand, and we were being involved in National Security foreign policy, and those two things had just diverged. Everyone was in the loop. His personal attorney, rudy giuliani, is in ukraine today of all places. He says hes meeting with prosecutors, which are also potential witnesses. To paraphrase biggie smalls, hes going, going, back, back, to kiev, kiev. This is a crime spree in progress, and that gives us an urgency to act. Rudy giuliani is pulling off, getting donald trump impeached. The house will do what many thought its on its way to do, impeach President Trump starting now. Im asking our chairman to proceed with articles of impeachment. This lawless president has taken advantage of the public trust. Committing high crimes and misdemeanors. You absolutely have a constitution that provides for a very quick remedy to that. We have got President Trump, whos basically out nixoning nixon. An extraordinary breach of the powers of the presidency. It is a vote that actually changes everything. The trial of donald j. Trump is the first trial in a generation. The constitution mandating chief Justice John Roberts will preside with all senators serving as jurors and other key calls are still wide open because when you understand the rules, you understand they can change any time. Im joined now by judge tim lewis, appointed to the federal bench by president george h. W. Bush, and former senator byron dorgan. He served on the clinton impeachment trial and voted not guilty on both counts. Very special and rare to have a federal appeals judge and a senator here together in this discussion. Thanks to both of you. Thank you. Thank you. Happy to be here. Appreciate it. Judge, lets begin with you. What would define a fair trial of a president in the senate . Well, thats a good question. There have been so few that we really we really kind of have to look at history and look forward, as you mentioned earlier, to the legacy that might be left to determine how best to perform, i think both as senators and as the chief justice presiding. I think that primarily we are looking for a decorum that rises above partisan politics to the extent possible in order to ensure that the American People get what they deserve, which is a fair look at whatever the charges that are brought by the congress in the form of an impeachment might be, and we dont know what those are at this point. I think that in addition the chief justice is going to have to adjust to a different environment. Im not sure hes exactly relishing presiding at an impeachment trial. As you know, the Supreme Court has no cameras. Its a very different culture and a different environment. And so his presence and how he conducts business is going to also lend some definition to fairness and how things unfold. Let me ask you about that as a fellow judge, do you think this could become one of the most important things chief Justice John Roberts ever does . Well, as you know, the Supreme Court takes up the seminal issues in cases that we have to address as a society, so im not sure that i would go quite that far. But it certainly is a solemn responsibility and its as i said, its in a forum with which he does not have direct familiarity. So i think that learning about the rules of the senate, the rules there are specific rules governing the Senate Impeachment process. Relying on the parliamentarian for insight and advice and really letting the senators take center stage as opposed to the chief justice to do what they must do, hoping that they will rise to the occasion. I mean the whole world is watching. The whole country is watching. And its only charges against the president of the United States that could very well result in his removal. Let me bring in the senator on that point. Senator dorrigan, what everyones views of the case, by the time it reached the senate the clinton scandals had been well debated in american life. Did you, did your colleagues see anyone walk out on the senate floor as the trial commenced and felt the gravity where they said, wait, this is a big one . Yeah, i think everybody understood this is a very sober moment. There is no joy in a United States senate that convenes as a trial for prosecution of impeachment resolutions. It is a tough situation. Let me just tell you that as we began, theres not much of a template for how you proceed. As we began, all 100 of us met in the Old Senate Chambers and had an offtherecord discussion about how do we do this . Whats the template by which we do this . Some, for example, wanted to call witnesses into the chamber of the senate, bring Monica Lewinsky in so she could be a witness in the trial. Well, the fact is that was discarded and ultimately we got videotapes and they were able to present videotapes. So we went to the senate floor as a trial, and we had to be sworn in separately as jurors. We had to sign an oath. And as you saw on the video, the chief justice was there in his black road with his gold stripes on the arms and we started. And it was very difficult. I mean it went for it started on january 7th, 20 years ago, and completed, i think, on february 12th. Did that private room meeting that youre referencing, did it have by the end a consensus . It did. Interestingly enough, the consensus was reached, as i recall, principally by ted kennedy and phil graham, very different people with very different political perspectives. And so we came out of that Old Senate Chamber with an understanding of how we should proceed. Not everything went smoothly, but by and large it was a very sober time. Senator, we pulled some of the then u. S. Senator dorrigan on the day of the acquittal. Take a look. Every member of the senate feels strongly about the president s conduct, but i think that the constitution worked today. The United States senate decided not to nullify the last election in this country as a result of the charges that were brought against this president. The issues may be very different. But eagleeyed viewers will note your reference to not nullifying the past election is what the president s lawyers have said this week about this effort. But especially not nullifying the election over personal behavior. Thats what this was about. This was about personal behavior, abhorrent as it was. But thats vastly different than behavior in which a president is asking a Foreign Government to intervene and involve themselves in an election in this country. That by the way is criminal. Theres a lot of evidence that some really bad things are happening and have happened. I think this senate will have to deal with those questions and they are not questions about personal behavior. Judge lewis, a question i have for you ive been waiting to ask all week since i had the opportunity to interview the president s lawyer, jay sekulow, earlier this week. He is taking the public position that it would be unfair as far as due process to try to convict the president on anonymous testimony, people that cant be confronted. I think most people all know the rules are different, theres no constitutional requirement of what merits due process. What do you think about the substance of that argument . Would it concern you to remove any president if it was primarily on anonymous testimony . Look, the constitution vests the authority to remove a president exclusively in the United States senate. Other than that, it does not spell out any specific guarantees of due process or some notion of fairness, although we do hope it is a fair process and procedure. Its a political process by nature. That argument does not work and will not work, no. The country really deserves a full airing of all the charges that may be brought, whatever they might be and wherever they might lead. We have imposed in our representatives the solemn responsibility to rise above politics to the extent possible and to do what they must do, what they have taken an oath to do and uphold the constitution. You know, you had an earlier clip, ari, in which you played that segment from the watergate hearings when Barbara Jordan spoke. Her words give me chills every time i hear them. My faith in the constitution is complete. My faith in the constitution is complete too but is only as good and will only rise to the level that we hope and expect to the extent that our representatives are able to do their job and to assume their oaths. And so, no, its not its not an argument that is recognized in the constitution. As you know, there are no rules of criminal procedure, civil procedure. This is a very unique proceeding. When the senate is convened for this proceeding, it is convened as a court, as a court of impeachment, so they will determine what the rules are and for you they unfold. Clarity, expertise, wisdom. I cant say we get that all day every day from washington but we certainly got it from both of you. Thanks to both of you. Thank you, sir. Coming up next, my interview with ken starr himself. We talk impeachment and whether a sitting president can be indicted. Later, what Elizabeth Warren is saying about her vision for 2020 and breaking up big tech. Then, when we get to the ending of this hour, were going to have some of our very favorite moments from lee daniels, annie lennox and more. Plus some lighter moments from the beat coming up. E lighter m the beat coming up with this key to the city. [ applause ] its an honor to tell you that Liberty Mutual customizes your Car Insurance so you only pay for what you need. And now we need to get back to work. [ applause and band playing ] only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. 12. 99 all you can eat now with boneless wings. Only at applebees. In america, the zip code youre born in can determine your future. But no matter what neighborhood you grow up in, the y creates opportunities for all. For a better us, donate to your local y today. For a better us, actions speak louder than words. She was a school teacher. My dad joined the navy and helped prosecute the nazis in nuremberg. Their values are why i walked away from my business, took the giving pledge to give my money to good causes, and why i spent the last ten years fighting corporate insiders who put profits over people. Im tom steyer, and i approve this message. Because, right now, America Needs more than words. We need action. Before discovering nexium 24hr to treat her frequent heartburn, marie could only imagine enjoying freshly squeezed orange juice. Now no fruit is forbidden. Nexium 24hr stops acid before it starts for allday, allnight protection. Can you imagine 24 hours without heartburn . For allday, whatever happens out there. You have the hilton app. Will the hilton app help us pick the starters . Great question, no. But it can help you pick your room from the floor plan. Can the hilton app help us score . You know, its not that kind of thing, but you can score free wifi. Can it help us win . Hey, hey were all winners with the hilton price match guarantee, alright . Man, you guys are adorable alright, lets go lose this soccer game, come on book with the hilton app. If you find a lower rate, we match it and give you 25 off that stay. Expect better. Expect hilton. Everything your trip needs, for everyone you love. Expedia. For everyone you love. What are you doing back there, junior . Since were obviously lost, im rescheduling my Xfinity Customer Service appointment. Ah, relax. I got this. Which gps are you using anyway . A Little Something called instinct. Been using it for years. Yeah, thats what im afraid of. He knows exactly where were going. My whole body is a compass. Oh boy. The my account app makes todays Xfinity Customer Service simple, easy, awesome. Not my thing. Donald Trumps Senate trial comes two decades after the trial of bill clinton. No one loomed larger over that trial than independent counsel ken starr, who drove the investigation that led to impeachment, testified as a witness in the house hearings and even returned during the senate trial to interview Monica Lewinsky again. Starr ultimately faced criticism not only from democrats but many independent analysts and legal experts over his approach. He remains still, though, one of the few living figures who have run this kind of investigation that leads to a president s senate trial, which makes him very interesting to talk with. We got to do that this year as mueller was still writing his report. Tonight we want to show you just a few quick highlights with some points that echo harshly for donald trump, as we talked witness tampering, starrs view on whether sitting president s could be indicted and one of the issues that could soon hobble trump, Congress Power to impeach for obstruction. When i say obstruction, something that Congress Might find to be obstructive. Yeah, because congress is not limited to these very technical elements as you well know with respect to what constitutes obstruction of justice. So those things you think congress could geeimpeach a president over. Congress can say this is simply taken as a whole the course of conduct constitutes an abuse of power. Abuse of power. What about discouraging witnesses from cooperating with Law Enforcement . Once again, that could be an actual crime. Discouraging witnesses could in fact constitute intimidation of witnesses. For impeachment, again, ari, i want to draw a line sure. Between what congress could say, this is conduct that we dont accept as opposed to heres a criminal offense. It doesnt in my judgment need to rise to the level of a technical crime of obstruction of justice. We concluded that perjury and obstruction of justice, like bribery, may constitute grounds for an impeachment. Are you in a position now where people will question whether youre applying a different standard to this president who happens to be in your party and the president that you investigated who happened to be in the other party . No, because it began with actual perjury and we believe intimidation of witnesses in a judicial proceeding. So thats another aspect of this. What the president had to face, what president clinton had to face was a civil action, a civil rights action, and he had to then be honest. He could settle the case, which he should have done, or then he had to conduct himself lawfully and he did not. I dont think anyone seriously disputes that he not only committed perjury, he encouraged others to lie. And here was the kcrescendo, wht we reached with the complete agreement of the legendary at the time sam dash, now departed, who was in the watergate episode as a special counsel to senator sam irvin. And all this led up to abuse of power. One of the messages is, is impeachment is hell. We lived through that as a country 20 years ago. Youre saying you put us through hell. Im saying the house of representatives took the evidence and said we have a duty to do what we feel oktd to do. But thats what you had them do. You wrote a report for them to impeach. I gave them that ari, this is great. This is great . It is. Ken starr on live tv saying that you didnt give them information to lead to impeachment . No. You had a very different characterization of the question, so roll it back, roll the transcript back, and now i will answer the question that you asked. Ive got to tell you, i feel like im talking to a lawyer. Go ahead, sir. Well, so am i. What the statute and this is one of the defects of the statute and its no longer a defect that bob mueller has to live with, is that the statute set the bar very low for providing information that may constitute grounds for impeachment. Thats what the congress required the independent counsel to do. So the report that went up was precisely that which congress in 1978 said thats what we want. Ari, the good news is for the country, we dont have that regime anymore. Youre saying, and im characterizing, but youre saying the good news is well never have another ken starr investigation . We will have no well, you could also ask judge walsh and so forth. Im asking you. I prefer that you not personalize it and make it more structural because the statute created well, there are about 20 independent counsels over the course of that 21 years. But yours was the one at your tenure that led to that impeachment that youre calling hell, that youre right, obviously the underlying law was strong, as i mentioned earlier, so it put that information but you wrote that report. Lets also get to something very interesting that you know is hot today. You solicited an opinion for your investigation that argued a sitting president could be indicted. Did you agree with that view then . Yes. Now, when we come back in 30 seconds, my interview with senator Elizabeth Warren. Welcome back to our holiday special right here on the beat. Trumps impeachment trial is moving forward in the senate and some democratic president ial candidates will be taking their ideas out to the American Public at the same time. That includes a push to address what some call the monopoly power of those Big Tech Companies like amazon and facebook. Senator Elizabeth Warren has been leading that fight. Thats something we spoke about in our interview on the day that she announced her plan to break up big tech this year. Take a look. We need real competition in this field. And theres a problem. So amazon, google, they own a platform, which is pretty cool, right, where everybody comes to buy and sell or to do the searches, and at the same time they own a bunch of businesses that are competing with all those folks who are coming, say, to amazon in order to sell their goods. And they dont just compete straight up, they compete by being able to keep all of the information from every one of those companies, and then decide, oh, im going after you and you, and i know how much to charge and i know what kind of volume to expect. Its a little like being an umpire in baseball and owning a team. My view is you can do one, be an umpire, or the other, own a team, but you dont get to do both at the same time. And you want to regulate so they dont just favor themselves. You dropped this plan today. This is your first big tv interview about it. Lets take a look at some of the reception today. Elizabeth warren is going after Big Tech Companies. Warren rolling out one of her big policy plans, breaking up amazon, google and other big tech giants. This is the toughest plan weve seen from any of the democratic contenders. Its big and its bold and its going to be difficult to achieve. Could she really force this kind of breakup . Could she really do it . Whats the answer . The answer is yes. Lets be really clear about this. If you want to be able to search for coffee pots and look at 63 choices and get the one thats going to be there in 48 hours, you can still do that as a consumer. This preserves the platform. If you still want to go on google and find out the capital of north dakota, you can totally do it. What this is about is about competition. Its about all those little businesses and startup businesses and entrepreneurs who want to put their products on amazon or on google and who are at an enormous competitive disadvantage because amazon or google, if they like the money they see that youre making because they get all the information, they decide to go into competition with you and put their product on page one and your product back on page six and kill your business. Lets go to the way the Treasury Department is run. Uhhuh. Because you look at it right now, and ill draw your attention to a very simple illustration under donald trump we can put up on the screen. You have in the red zone there Goldman Sachs as part of Treasury Department leadership. If you go back during the obama era, we checked and you had Goldman Sachs former executives running treasury then. Back to bush, also Goldman Sachs. You go back to bill clinton, also Goldman Sachs. In a Warren Administration, would there be a former Goldman Sachs executive running the Treasury Department . Nope. Is that a pledge . Absolutely. Thats a litmus test. Absolutely. Let me tell you why. The problem weve got right now is a revolving door right now between wall street and washington that causes everybody to be on guess for, wait a minute, the next time this treasury secretary puts forward a proposal, is it because it really helps the economy, helps the american consumer, helps the american homeowner, or is it because it helps their former and possibly future employer . Lets just do for one second the gary cohn example, another Goldman Sachs. Sure. So trump appoints gary cohn, he leaves Goldman Sachs. Gary cohn is going to have exactly one job, and that is to ramrod through a rewrite of the tax laws that will profoundly affect Goldman Sachs. So what does Goldman Sachs do as gary walks out the door . They hand him nearly a quarter of a billion dollars. Its a gift. They dont have to. Is it legal bribery . I think of it as a prebribe. Prebribe. Yes. So gary then goes out and guess what he does . He writes a tax law and manages to help ramrod it through that benefits Goldman Sachs to the tune of, oh, a quarter of a billion dollars in the first goround and then its the gift that keeps on giving. What youre saying makes sense and we have such ripe targets, i think people could understand what youre pointing to. But what does it mean for the Democratic Party if this was also how obama and clinton ran the treasury. Would you be a fundamental break with that is the question . The problem i have written the biggest anticorruption bill since watergate, because we have a fundamental problem in washington. And understand, its a problem that predates trump by decades. Trump may be the most extreme example now, the prebribes of gary cohn, for example, but we have a longstanding problem and thats the influence of money on decisionmaking in washington. So this bill has lots of pieces to it, including closing the revolving door between wall street and washington, ending lobbying as we know it, putting a real ethics cop on the beat, saying that the heads of these agencies cannot be trading in stocks. Are you basically writing off a bunch of wall street money and then today youre writing off a bunch of Silicon Valley money . Maybe. But this isnt about the money. This is about how it is were going to make this country work again not just for the rich and the powerful. How were going to make it work for everyone. Everyone has been talking about the rather light sentence that Paul Manafort got. When you look at that, does that reflect what youre saying . Yeah. Washington works well for the connected and affluent and nobody else . Yeah. Its two justice systems. Look at the words carve ed abov the United States Supreme Court. Equal justice under law. Look at the reality. People who got buckets of money and are well connected get treated with kid gloves. Everybody else doesnt. Do you think when you look at that statistically that a similar defendant who might have been poor and black would have gotten a different sentence . We know the data on this. Of course the sentence would have been different. In fact study after study after study shows that for the exact same crimes, africanamericans are more likely than whites to be arrested, to be prosecuted, to be wrongfully convicted, and to receive harsher sentences. Race matters in our criminal justice system, and it is not a system of equal justice under r law. Ive got a couple of word associations. Some relate to your bill. Amazon can i have two words . Sure. Too big. Google . Too big. Facebook . Too big. Mark zuckerberg. Too powerful. And thats really the point of the too bigs. Its they have got too much power and they get to use that power now to dominate markets, to chew up competitors, and ultimately to change the consumer experience. Weve got to change that. Favorite song to work out to . Anything from patsy kline. Patsy kline. I love patsy kline. Favorite album or artist when you were growing up . Any of the beatles. Probably the white album. Ive got to know your favorite beatle. Oh, no, thats not fair. Thats like asking your favorite child. I would guess, i dont know. I dont know you that well. I would guess lennon. George harrison. Boom. Yeah. Your dream running mate throughout history living or dead, if you could pick a person that would run with you . Teddy roosevelt. A republican . Yeah. Because he took on the trusts . Because he was brave and he took on the trusts and he didnt care how many people were going to be mad about it, and he did it this is whats amazing for the right reasons. It wasnt just that they were big, it wasnt just that they were dominating an economy, it wasnt just that they were putting farmers out of business and competitors out of business and Small Companies out of business. It was that they had too much political power. And it was the very fact of that political power that caused Teddy Roosevelt to say im going to be a trust buster. Man, id like to have that guy at my side. There is a beloved actress whos been talking about you, annette bening. Yes. Lets take a look. I think we have this for you. Annette bening says she knows she looks like Elizabeth Warren, thank you very much. Whoa im flattered. Does she look like you or do you look like her . Either way. Im totally happy with this comparison. You like this. Yes, i do. Would you be comfortable if and when theres a Warren Administration an then theres a warren movie, would you be comfortable with her playing you . Im all in. We have to ask how bailey is doing. This dog is beloved on your campaign. You know, this dog is the best. Between the bailey cam and the opportunity to meet people and voters, and people have been bringing him little treats, so bailey is filling out now. For a 10monthold dog and he has his own greeting line as well as you. Oh, man, he does a photo line like you wouldnt believe. I want to be really clear about this, ari. It is not a competition. No. I say this because i definitely do not want to be in competition with a 10monthold golden retriever. Ive seen him. Im a dog person myself. Im sure he could get a lot of individual donors as well. If he goes in that direction. Senator warren, coming here on the day of your big tech announcement, we really appreciate it. We hope youll come back on the beat. Good. Thank you. Well show you a lot more on this holiday special of the beat. Including my conversation with lee daniels, part of our mavericks highlights. Mavericks s oh, oh, oh, ozempic® announcer onceweekly ozempic® is helping many people with type 2 diabetes like james lower their blood sugar. A majority of adults who took ozempic® reached an a1c under 7 and maintained it. Heres your a1c. Oh my a1c is under 7 announcer and you may lose weight. Adults who took ozempic® lost on average up to 12 pounds. I lost almost 12 pounds oh announcer ozempic® does not increase the risk of major cardiovascular events like heart attack, stroke, or death. Theres no increased risk. Oh and i only have to take it once a week. Oh oh, oh, oh, ozempic® announcer ozempic® should not be the first medicine for treating diabetes, or for people with type 1 diabetes or diabetic ketoacidosis. Do not share needles or pens. Dont reuse needles. Do not take ozempic® if you have a personal or Family History of medullary thyroid cancer, multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2, or if you are allergic to ozempic®. Stop taking ozempic® and get medical help right away if you get a lump or swelling in your neck, severe stomach pain, itching, rash, or trouble breathing. Serious side effects may include pancreatitis. Tell your doctor if you have Diabetic Retinopathy or vision changes. Taking ozempic® with a sulfonylurea or insulin may increase low blood sugar risk. Common side effects are nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, stomach pain, and constipation. Some side effects can lead to dehydration, which may worsen kidney problems. Onceweekly ozempic® is helping me reach my blood sugar goal. Oh, oh, oh, ozempic® announcer you may pay as little as 25 per prescription. Ask your Health Care Provider today about onceweekly ozempic®. Welcome back to our holiday special. You know over this whole year, some beat viewers come up to me and say what is the deal with all the music stuff . Some others of you have said, well, thank you for adding a little culture into the news. Honestly culture is already in our life and in our politics. The only question in the newsroom is whether we face it or ignore it. Artists often form our first view of things, whether its Bruce Springsteen and bob dylan making us think about america or Joanie Mitchell and muhammed ali making us think about foreign policy. This year take lee daniels, awardwinning director of precious and the hit show empire. He joined me for our mavericks series discussing racism in life and hollywood, why donald trump once asked him to direct a movie, and then this exchange that many of you have written in about. Daniels opening up about the emotional moment when halle berry won an oscar for a leading role in his film, monsters ball in 2002. Where were you when halle berry was the first black woman to win an oscar for a lead role in that movie . I was in a hotel. Youve clearly done your homework, have you . I do some homework, yeah. I was in a hotel inebriated. Not expecting to win then . Or inebriated regardless . Not expecting to win. I was invited but i didnt feel like i deserved to be there. Why not . You were a part of the movie. I dont know. When hollywood tells you youre not deserved, you sort of believe that. What hotel . The chateau marmont. Naturally. I didnt think i was deserved of being at the table, so i didnt i didnt go there. So thats something people who think of you as this successful, culturecreating star, frankly, might be surprised that even at that point in your career, even on oscar night you werent in the room. You were inebriated in a hotel. And then this happens. And the oscar goes to halle berry, monsters ball. I want to thank lee daniels, our producer. Thank you for giving me this chance, for believing that i could do it and now tonight i have this. Thats nice. I hadnt seen that in forever. I dont think i saw it since that time. Since the since the chateau marmont. This is the first time youve seen it . Mmhmm. How does it look now . It looks great. It makes me feel like i was just naive and stupid for not going. Yeah. What brings the tears . It was hard, really hard fight. And she deserved it. Yeah, she deserved it. Thats the first time ive seen that. She deserved it but you didnt think i deserved it. No, i didnt think i deserved it. I was just doing another day. I was trying to think about where my next gig is coming from and how i could change the world with the next piece of work that i could do. Something that was unexpected. So shes there, im in the bed with a crack pipe, and thinking, okay, so whats next for me . How do i how do i change the world with the next piece of work that i want to create. How do you feel remembering that she thought you did deserve it and she thanks you from that stage . You just dont have time to take it in. You dont have time. Life is so short that you just ah, okay, thank you. And you dont really stop and take it in. And this time i took it in. Thats why i became emotional. Youll never see me cry on television again, thats for sure. Yeah . Hmmmm. Hmmmm. I dont think we have since. Our thanks to lee daniels for that candid conversation. Were also thankful to a legendary singer, i know you know about, annie lennox. She took us on an unusual tour of an art exhibit tracing her work and life. This is also part of our mavericks interviews and it touched on how she pushed boundaries on gender identity and feminism back in 1983 when she was out wearing Mens Clothing and touring worldwide. When you were coming up in eurythmics, the reaction around the world was, wow, how can she dress like that or does that mean shes gay and what does that say about gender. You said at the time you werent trying to be a gender bender so what were you trying . I wanted to be a powerful performer. And i wanted to resonate with people in a certain way. And i definitely, by the time dave and i formed eurythmics, i definitely had the sense of who i was and what i wanted to do and it was in partnership with dave, whos a man, and a sense of being equals. Were almost like twins on the stage. We were each others muse, if you like. I didnt always wear a mans suit, i wore all kinds of costumes. That was one way to perform that made people think i had a very, very, strong, powerful image, if you like. If i broke rules, they were very restrictive. Many people remember you wearing this hiv positive shirt. I hope people remember me. I hope that that message did spread. As an advocate for hiv and aids, i wore that tshirt or tshirts like that with the messaging on the front. At the back it would say fighting hiv and aids. Im a mother, so i think its the fact that i am a woman and a mother and have been a young girl. I identify with women everywhere. For me, my interpretation of feminism goes right around the globe, because beyond the unseen boundaries of our western bubble lie the Biggest Challenges for girls and women around the globe. There, you know, those are the places where we need feminism, female empowerment, more than anywhere else. Theres just such a huge gap that needs to be addressed. We need to understand feminism on a global basis. I come from a working class background in scotland. I thought i understood what poverty was. There was poverty around. When i went to visit these countries, when i saw what was happening, you see children in rags, you see children that cannot go to school, you see children that cannot eat, and thats a population level because of poverty you dont you realize, oh, my god, i didnt know what poveraufoverty. When you understand the scale of it, it is very, very lifechanging. We all have things, baggage, weve all got experiences, weve all got memories. A lot of them we need to let go of as well. We go through these phases. Im in this older phase of my life where im reflecting a lot back. A lot of things are memory for me. I recreated them in this dream scape, which is now ill let you go. That was really neat for us to spend some time there. Of course it was her vision that propelled her to the top of the charts. They sold over 80 million records worldwide and worked on the activism you saw there. The 80s were also a time of artistic inspiration and revolution right here in new york city. The foundation for shifts across the culture is something we explored with two moguls from Def Jam Records who helped make hiphop mainstream, kevin lyles and leo comb. I believe rap music took on something from early rock n roll that said theres a lot that we have to say. And remember rap music was introduced on a corner and maybe one hour every friday night for a show. What was happening here in new york in the early 80s was fashion, art and rap music was bumping, colliding together. The spirit of it was underpinned by affordable housing. So the whole soho, where we are right now, was full of artists. Imagine that, downtown new york being affordable. What he was talking about there was also, of course, including visual artists. We heard about that in our series from producer swizz beat. Hes working with artists to advance diversity in the often closed art world. Theres Something Different to say as a matter of fact let me see if hes around for dinner tonight, right . Its very important for us as a culture to own the culture or pieces of the culture and change that whole concept of making it for other people to own and we dont have a trace of it left around where we can pull from, which is the reason why we collect so heavy, we collect like were building a museum because we want to save most of these pieces so the next generation and the youth can have something to pull from or go back to of their history. Its living history and those are just some of the topics we got to tackle on mavericks. I want to share with you longer indepth interviews and theyre posted at msnbc. Com mavericks. Check them out now. Were not done tonight, though. Coming up, some of our favorite funny moments all across this year on the beat. Its a highlight reel you dont want to miss. Want to miss we made usaa insurance for members like martin. An air force veteran made of doing whats right, not whats easy. So when a hailstorm hit, usaa reached out before he could even inspect the damage. Thats how you do it right. Usaa insurance is made just the way martins family needs it with hasslefree claims, he got paid before his neighbor even got started. Because doing right by our members, thats whats right. Usaa. What youre made of, were made for. Usaa i am totally blind. And non24 can throw my days and nights out of sync, keeping me from the things i love to do. Talk to your doctor, and call 8442142424. Creais back at red lobster. Ast with new creations to choose from; like rich, butterpoached Maine Lobster and crispy crabstuffed shrimp rangoon. How will you pick just 4 of 10 . It wont be easy. Better hurry in. If you listen to the political it sounds like we have a failed society. But nothing could be further from the truth. Americans are compassionate and hardworking. We arent failing. Our politicians are failing. Thats why im running for president. To end the corporate takeover of the government. And give more power to the American People. Thats how well win healthcare, fair wages, and clean air and water as a right. Im tom steyer and i approve this message. I got this Mountain Bike for only 11. Dealdash. Com, the fair and honest bidding site. An ipad worth 505, was sold for less than 24; a playstation 4 for less than 16; and a schultz 4k television for less than 2. I won these bluetooth headphones for 20. I got these three suitcases for less than 40. And shipping is always free. Go to dealdash. Com right now and see how much you can save. How do you take stock of your year . Do you focus on the big stuff, the most intense memories or maybe the goofy times that reminded you how much were all just people trying to make our way in this world . Well, around here obviously we obviously work on a Television Show so many of our moments have been recorded for better or worse, and weve gathered them together to share with you. And a warning to views, brace yourself for some musical references, dad jokes, and yes, even awkward silences. Sit down because here it comes the beat with ari melber starts right now. Thats it . Thats it. I really expected a rap lyric with this one. Are you really majority leader if youre not running this . To quote jayz aint no telling will he love them or diss them. I think barr flipped it and e reversed it. Let me get off my fat joe and say lean back and welcome david to the party. Its getting hot in here, maybe not you. No, im cool. Its gotten amazing. You guys realize this is weird, right . It is super weird. The awkward silences. Oh. Lets reflect on that. I did want to let this moment. Sit. Sit. I mean what can you say . Thats how they know about the martians landed. Actually im making a joke. Okay. Im going to end with my bad holiday joke. Are you saying the cattle industry had beef with oprah . This is holiday where you say, look, let my full report go. Im sorry. Come on. 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Now, as far as were concerned around here 2019 was not a normal year, and it wasnt supposed to be because you cant look at whats been happening and act like its normal. So weve been doing our part night after night. We want to say thank you to the viewers for watching and supporting the journalism. We want to wish everyone of course a happy new year. And i want to thank our team because sometimes i get people coming up to me saying, wow, howd you find this or that was so clear the way you explained and reported that. And the answer is well, thank you, but it is a huge, huge team effort from everyone here in our headquarters here at msnbc and around the building and around the world. And we want to say thank you to all those who put this together. Happy holidays and lets play hardball. Good evening. Im Chris Matthews in washington with a big hour ahead for you. Ill be joined by some highly influential people in politics and in the media. In a little while former secretary of state john kerry shares his thoughts on President Trump and the greatest crisis facing the planet. And former National Security advisor susan rice talks about donald trump and the predecessor he cant get past, barack obama. And later in this show ill ta to Filmmaker Michael Moore about thca