Transcripts For MSNBCW The Beat With Ari Melber 20191111

To the hearings. The white house on edge as public impeachment hearings are now 48 hours away with signs that more witnesses are talking to these investigators, including Rudy Giulianis new indicted associate lev parnas. The New York Times reporting that he went back to ukraine in the spring to deliver an ultimatum to the incoming president , saying that they needed to have that announcement of an investigation into the bidens or guess what . The u. S. Would freeze the aid. And not only that, but mike pence would also boycott the ukrainian president s swearing in if they didnt get what they wanted. This account, which is now available to the impeachment probe would add to the other evidence of Donald Trumps demand for this bribe from ukraine. Now note that while parnas is tying this back to trump, giuliani, of course, who represented this individual who was his consultant effectively is denying the whole new story. But then there is this, the daily beast with its own report that about a month before trumps now infamous call with the ukrainian president , two top ukrainian aides were very concerned about all of this, and they asked washington whether the money was in danger. All of it comes as donald trump is bracing for what has become mounting bribery evidence to go public fully this wednesday. And if you feel like there is a lot flying at us, and there is in this story, consider that wednesday is the first live televised impeachment hearings for the whole country to tune in and understand what these claims are. Theyre trumps allies trying to defend trump in several different ways. The new one that were seeing is now conceding that something here was actually improper, but saying it wasnt actually impeachable. I believe that it is inappropriate for a president to ask a foreign leader to investigate a political rival. I believe it was inappropriate. I do not believe it was impeachable. Lets get right to it with the power panel on set. Mara gay from the New York Times editorial board, berit berger a federal prosecutor in the Southern District of new york and reporter shelby holliday. Thanks for being here, everyone. Thanks for having us. Girls night. Lets start with that new line of defense from at least some House Republicans who obviously voted against Going Forward on even having an impeachment probe. Thats on the record saying, hey, im against all of this and now conceding but some of this is bad. Extraordinary on one hand to have taken the stance that we shouldnt even be looking into this even a little bit but on the other say its inappropriate. Its a fine line between what you consider to be inappropriate versus impeachable. Its hard for him to say that with a straight face since he didnt even want to bring the witnesses forward in a public setting. I would say given the Election Results l. A. Week in kentucky and even more concerningly for the republicans in virginia that some of these republicans have got to be looking at the prospect of public impeachment hearings saying that we dont actually know whether theyre going to change public opinion, but if they do have an impact, its not going to be good for me. So youre going to see republicans moving away from towing the president s line and more hopefully toward thinking for themselves. Lets tease that out. Were here two days out. Its getting very real. And the question ultimately with what is known, the closer you are to this, the closer you follow the news, the more you read, your wall street journal updates, it got pretty bad and then people walked back in the white house what they admitted to. Thats how bad it is. If youre paying less attention, and as we always note, a lot of people are busy with their lives, with a job or two jobs. So if its going to go public on wednesday, do you think that the republicans here are saying, well, more people finding out about what are the public facts is going to help or hurt trumps case . I think its going to hurt trumps case. And i think that the republicans understand that and are starting to hedge their bets. The question is whether these impeachment hearings when they are done in full view of the public, is that going to break through all the other noise . And are americans going to stop and watch their tvs the way they did with the kavanaugh hearings, for example, and just say to themselves wait a second, something isnt right here. Ultimately, this is a case in which the president of the United States apparently was not working on behalf of the American People, but was in fact selling out our government and weaponizing it against his political enemies while at the same time inviting foreign governments to interfere in our election. Thats a pretty clear case. And when its coming out of the mouths like of people like vindm vindman, its going to be extremely difficult for the republicans to hide behind just process. And that goes to why, berit, as were going get to later in the show there are trump aides who are basically sending people to court right now looking for guidance about what to do. Because at the end of the day, people understand if theyre in government, this isnt just about patriotism and speaking out. Some people have really put their neck on the line. But now that its out, if you are too close to some of this stuff, youre not the president. You can be indicted in office. Weve had in this country a Vice President face it. Weve had other aides face it. There is no immunity that goes anywhere near anyone but the president that part is debated. I put that to with you with new comments from congresswoman Jackie Speier picking up on something weve been reporting for a while that constitutionally, there is a strong case here of bribery, which is impeachable. Take a look. The president broke the law. He went on a telephone call with the president of ukraine and said i have a favor, though, and then proceeded to ask for an investigation of his rival. And this is a very strong case of bribery. I think the democrats are smart to be moving away from the language of quid pro quo, aside from the fact that nobody really understands the full meaning of this latin phrase, but bribery is something that people do understand. People understand what it means to say give me dirt or im not going to give you aid. People get that. And i think as the democrats are facing the next challenge let me press you on that. Not only thats a clarity reason, and prosecutors and lawyers care a lot about that when youre talking to a jury. The American Public is the ultimate jury. Just people, not picked for any other reason than being citizens, right . And being in good standing, i suppose. But its deeper than communication. There are only two specific offenses as weve reported on this show repeatedly in the constitution that are explicitly impeachable. Other stuff may be, but you have to debate what a high crime is. Bribery is in there. Absolutely. And so youre 100 right. Theyre smart for the narrative part of this which is one of the big goals for the coming hearings is to paint the narrative for the people. But when you get down to the nittygritty, what do you actually have to show to cross the line from being improper to being impeachable . If they can make a strong case that this is bribery, they have crossed that line over into impeachment. I want to get to some of the reporting youve done on giuliani. Before we get there, shelby, i want to look at the strongest defense on to the trump side. I want to show you one of the best communicators that the Republican Party has which is nikki haley, and she kind of backs away from the whole thing and makes it if youre not listening that closely, it might sound wait a minute, is that big. Take a look. Do you think ultimately the president will be impeach and removed from office . No. On what . Youre going to impeach a president for asking for a favor that didnt happen and giving money and it wasnt withheld . I dont know what you would impeach him on. Were hearing that like you said, were maybe not hearing that from trump himself, but we are starting to hear that from more and more republicans. The aid was released. Look at the transcript. There is no quid pro quo. You know, i think there are some key themes that democrats have to be quite focused on in the hearings or else this isnt going to go well for them. You have not just yule giulianis role, but questions about the quid pro quo. There is also quid pro quo regarding a white house meeting. The wall street journal reported that lev parnas, giulianis associate delivered this quid pro quo message in february to petro poroshenko, then ukrainian president. If you want to come to the white house you, have to announce these investigations. Then it happened with zelensky, allegedly. So you have a lot going on. You have rudy giuliani. You also have ambassador yovanovitch. And thats a key point. Why was she removed . Who was behind that campaign . There is a lot to focus on. A lot of these witnesses have shared interesting information about those three themes, but will democrats focus on this one idea of bribery . Can the message get away from them . Some of these witnesses republicans have time to question them as well, and they want to go down different roads. So it will be interesting to see if democrats can actually stay focussed on this one key point and at the end of the day, will americans be tuning in to hear it. Berit, this is where its legalish, but its not prosecutorly legal. Right. And its a senate trial, not a criminal trial. And what nikki haley is appealing to is people who watch law order and think well, yeah, attempted bribery or attempted embezzlement, or attempted extortion sounds bad, but attempted is not as bad as pulling it off. Is there a reasonable way for them to lean into that . Although i would note, i have to as a journalist, the facts of the case suggest it may have been more than attempted. But thats that theyre trying to do. You nailed it. There is literally no legal distinction here. If this was a court of law, there is a charge of only attempt but conspiracy to commit a crime. And conspiracy to commit something is punished just as severely as the actual crime itself. So legally, this is a zungs without any meaning here. And attempted murder. Right. You dont get very far in a real courtroom. Look, my client only tried to do this and couldnt pull it off depending what the defense. You say the constitution says, look, the bribery thing is exactly what were concerned about, because if officials who have such unitarian executive power, we know the president does, particularly on Foreign Policy, if you can auction off things, if you can auction off a bombing here, you know, a pardon there, the pardon power is almost never reviewable to use the legal jargon. You can pardon almost anyone for any reason. But you cant sell a part. Exactly. Thats why the founders were so explicit in putting bribery in there as one of the ways in which you could remove a president. Because it is so fundamental to what we think is how a government should run. That these are things like you said that shouldnt be for sale. Before we go, giuliani, do you have anything on that . Ill let shelby handle that. I think its interesting where you look at this may meeting where talk to rudy, talk to ruder all the way through the summer when giuliani is obviously publicly campaigning for these public investigations. But the president is very explicit. Youll have to talk to giuliani. In that phone call with zelensky, ill have giuliani give you a call thinking intersects with what we did learn from the Mueller Report which is bob mueller documented the level of intent by this president. When he has bad things he wants to do, whether he pulls them off or not, suddenly the room gets clear. Its a oneonone. When he has bad things that he doesnt even trust to pressure comey with, suddenly lewandowski gets pulled into it. Right. This is classic criminal intent, which doesnt mean they have proven the whole case. We have to report on it. Michael cohen. I know youre fired up about this. Im not going to tee you up, and youve been reporting on this for a while on the parnas front. This is giulianis associate says this meeting about a demand for the biden inquiry if corroborated would reveal the earliest known incident of american aid being tied to ukraine being tied to trumps actions. The other people in the meeting are denying this, but if its true, it is significant because the president , nikki haley, the allies have said the aid was ultimately release and the ukrainians didnt know the hold on aid existed until after the phone call. But if this message was delivered in may, that is months before the phone call happened. And it has this implicit threat, allegedly, according to the reporting. This is parnas story. You to be clear about that. But its a message that you wont get your aid if you dont open these investigations. And it wasnt so much about investigating. It was about announcing it publicly on tv or in a publication, just the announcement of an investigation. And that is something that would benefit trump. Well, mara, its almost as donald trump, who may be new to politics, he claims, learned something in 2016 which is just talking and announcing investigational material is enough to damage someone even if theyre ultimately not charged. Thats right. Lets just remember here that we dont actually need to prove that a crime took place to impeach a president. It is actually not a criminal proceeding, as you pointed out, ari. And there may have been crimes here, but thats actually beside the point in terms of abuse of power. A and the real question is whos going to have the more powerful story . Someone like nikki haley is telling a very compelling story for those who dont want the pay attention. Are we going to be looking at facts, though, or propaganda . Because what she is talking about is ultimately propaganda. Its not based around and actual sequence of events. So there is an opportunity here not just for the democrats, but for those who believe that something, that there was an abuse of power, to make their case before the American People this week, and to cut through the noise and tell a story. This is about story telling. Its as much a political process as a legal one. I think you lay that out really well, and its also a reminder of how interesting these times are. They may be heavy, but theyre interesting, because the way you just put it is the gap between nikki haley minimizing, maybe nothing happened, which is often the First Defense you hear in any situation, except Donald Trumps number one top aide you or me . It could be anyone. Se ri. She wants to weigh in. I would be curious to what se ri has to say. The algorithms have all kinds of ways of evaluating evidence. But you have the nikki haley defense is hey, maybe nothing happened. And that might have appealed to a lot of people except Mick Mulvaney came out and said oh, something happened. Something we do all the time. We do this. Get over it, until he had to retract. Great insights from every panelist. Thanks to each of you. Thank you. Mara, berit, shelby, well be seeing all of you again. Coming up as promised, im going turn next to my special report between Mick Mulvaney and tap dance between defying congress and asking a judge whether he should defy his own boss, donald trump. Also, later, republicans try out this new defense, admitting yes, maybe he actually did something wrong. And tonight neal katyal is back on the beat about trumps attempt to abuse a privilege to hide the facts. And later, my take on the evidence and some of the drama emerges from, yes, the ongoing trial of trump aide roger stone. Im ari melber. Youre watching the beat on msnbc. When you pine for the sunshine of a friendly gaze. For the holidays you cant beat home sweet home. 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We begin with a fact of life for president s under investigation, be it congressional or criminal investigation, there is Major Pressure on their most trusted and senior aides to testify. That puts the aides in a tough spot between their obligation to cooperate, their obligation to their boss, and the legitimate limits on what they say. President clintons advisers faced that pressure during the whitewater probe. From his spokesman and confidante george stephanopoulos, remember when he was doing politics . To key counsel Bruce Lindsey to sidney blumenthal, a loyal clinton adviser who cooperated with the grand jury and testimony that later became public. He famously told jurors that he asked president clinton what have you done wrong . And the president replied nothing. And then after cooperating, blumenthal faced the cameras dramatically on the courthouse steps and criticized ken starr for hauling him before a grand jury under those circumstances. I never imagined that in america i would be hauled before a federal grand jury to answer questions if they think they have intimidated me, they have failed. There are many example of aides walking this line throughout history, and not just in the often cited impeachment examples of clinton or nixon. President george w. Bush faced an investigation with some parallels to todays ukraine scandal and the president has major Foreign Policy powers, but thats what makes their potential abuse so significant. These could be matters of life and death. Bush aides found themselves interrogatoried by the mueller of their era, Patrick Fitzgerald about alleged abuse of powers. Those same Foreign Policy power, outing a cia operative for allegedly political purposes. Think about that. Abusing National Security powers for politics, thats a crime. And soon some of bushs most trusted aides were under a microscope, testifying like karl rove and Alberto Gonzales, or indicted and convicted like school scooter libby. General Alberto Gonzales told a Congressional Panel he made mistakes and insisted politics was not a factor in the firing of eight federal prosecutors. That was the time when mr. Gonzalez was testifying to congress about their investigation. He ultimately was ousted over some of those issues. Now there were those battles then. President bush claiming executive privilege in trying to prevent rove and others from facing congress. Why am i telling you all this right now . Well, there is context for this pickle that Mick Mulvaney is in tonight right now as his team goes to court arguing whether whether he can testify against trump, and there could be legitimate limits on testimony classified material, privileges that do apply. And now on the list of Current Trump aides, mulvaney is number one. Not only in the org chart, but also in allegedly overseeing the ukraine bribery plot, including his famous televised confession. He also mentioned to me in past the corruption related to the dnc server . Absolutely. No question about that. Lets be clear. What you just described is a quid pro quo. We do that all the time with Foreign Policy. Thats it. Thats why we held up the money. Thats it, so emphatic. But that was not it, as we reported in a breakdown on the beat. Mulvaneys press conference made him appear among the witnesses stating there was bribery, there is. Only to move back as he tried to retract his own televised confession. So mulvaney has done a lot to make himself an even more sought after witness and to impeach his only credibility, so to speak. And whatever anyone thinks of mulvaney, and he does look a little guilty, in fairness, his situation does face a situation when other aides have attempted to testify. Call it mulvaney versus trump. Mulvaney trying to join a lawsuit against his boss trump. Mulvaneys team is in court tonight which makes fitting headlines for a year where it seems like everything has already massachusetts happened. But not this. He is trying to join this lawsuit against trump that basically asks a court to decide if mulvaney should testify against his boss. Now that is unusual. Mulvaney could just fight this request outright, arguing executive privilege, for he thinks the truth is good for him and trump. He could just go down and testify, right . He has already made this whole argument on live tv. He could make it again to congress or he could adjust it. Instead, he is trying to join the lawsuit against trump with an ousted trump aide Charles Kupperman who was a former deputy to john bolton, and bolton is key here because he has all kinds of bad things reportedly to say about the bribery plot. He even reportedly said he want wanted no part of a, quote deal that sondland and mulvaney are trying to cook up. Trying to cook up a drug deal, john bolton, who is flabbergasted at the move. The Washington Post reporting the whole thing highlights the internal divisions in trump land. Boltons deputy is making a genuine request to a judge to be given the green light to talk while mulvaney is jumping in to muddy the waters. Opposing talking. A strategy here is basically this wouldnt cost mulvaney much. If he gets a ruling forcing him to talk, he could go back to try to defy these other requests like other Trump Officials have. Thats the gamble. But before we bring in our experts, look at the substance here. Boltons deputy is making a serious argument that like other aides before him, he is now caught between the competing demand of trump and congress, and in a nod toward the significance of the democrats impeachment probe, boltons deputy says if he choosing wrong or if he clams up too fast, he could inflict grave constitutional injury on the house impeachment probe. And finally, this brief cites some precedent that trump and presumably mr. Bolton may be concerned about, that congress has more power to force testimony when probing, quote, misconduct by impeachable officials. Impeachable officials. The president s the most important impeachable official there. So while these white house officials do follow a long line of aides who do wrestle with these dilemmas, and some of them are real, rarely do you see a chief of staff join a suit against his own boss, the president , or what mulvaney is doing this evening, a suit telling him to reject his own bosss order or accusing him of a bribery plot that may be impeachable, let alone an official who reportedly accused him of cooking up a drug deal. So as with so much in 2019, this is a little different. What happens next in this case after that hearing late today, were back in 30 seconds with two experts on all of this. We are back with breaking news. You cannot make it up. I was handed news on the mulvaney suit as i was doing this breakdown. Remember all the pressure i just walked through . How its odd that Mick Mulvaney is making common cause with these critics of trump which is something they were attempting to do in court today . Im holding here the news. Lawyers say they are withdrawing the motion to intervene in this very case, but instead will, quote, file their own lawsuit as a separate case, meaning this entire controversy is still very much alive, but mulvaney perhaps buckling to some of this latebreaking pressure about who he was working. With as promised, we bring in Mother Jones Washington Bureau chief david corn and paul butler. Good evening, gentlemen. Good evening. David, this is one of those nights. I got handed this as we were doing the breakdown. Your view of both the larger arc, which is mulvaney still not taking donald trump at his word in requesting he clam up and also what it means with the latebreaking news that he is not going to do it through the vehicle of the guy who accused him of cooking up a drug deal. My head is still spinning from your Crystal Clear explanation of this issue, because it is rather complicated. Thank you. And it does seem to cut against some instinctual positions. I mean, the key thing to keep in mind here is that mulvaney in testimony thats come out recently gets more of a central row in the extortion bribery scheme, whatever you want to indicate. Fiona hill, the top russian adviser in the white house, when her testimony was released the other day, i thought one of the key points was it wasnt just giuliani who was cooking up this pressure scheme against the ukrainians. It was giuliani and mulvaney. And as you noted in your wonderful setup, when john bolton referred to the fact that i wont be part of any drug deal, meaning any illegal improper arrangement, he called it sondlands and mulvaneys drug deal. He said cooking up. Youre making an inference. He could have meant that he was worried about using heat or fire to create drugs in the white house. Yeah, exactly. Not ruling that out. Theyre doing crystal meth there. Theyre watching breaking bad and thats what theyre doing, which might be an easier out than what theyre doing. One could argue some of the penalties for certain low level drug offenses are lower than the kind of federal Corruption Cases paul needs to prosecute. Mulvaney has gotten to be a more critical player, plus as you know there was his confession in front of national tv. Yeah. So the fact that he is talking about this openly and publicly certainly would undermine any claim he has. Any privilege. To absolute immunity. Not executive, but absolute immunity. Dont even know what it circumstances david before i go to paul on the law, on the washington of this, its a very washington story. There was pushback. There was scrutiny. Obviously it seems breaking news, but my read on it would be mulvaney has buckled to some of that pressure. Do you view that as a thing where trump and the pressure that mulvaney is under, they care more about how it looks than the underlying litigation . I think you had kupperman and john bolton saying get out of here. We dont want you. We are reasons for bringing the suit are different than yours. We talk about National Security matters. You have already confessed. I think they saw his involvement as maybe polluting the case. So i dont know to what degree trump came in and said do or dont proceed with this, but it really raised so many eyebrows that it seemed that he was basically trying to join a party that didnt want him anywhere near the punch bowl. So that might have been the bottom of it. But as the main issue of to testify or not to testify still remains front and center for all of them. Paul, youve been sitting here with me thinking this all through. What is the significance that, again, reading from the breaking news it says mulvaney will still file his own lawsuit in a separate case, which means the core of what were just reporting on, that rather than saying yes, mr. President , there is a good reason not to testify, instead he is saying no, mr. President , ive got to kind of get some outside ruling here. Yes. So ari, if your boss the president tells you not to testify, but the Congress Orders you to testify, what do you do . Thats the issue before the courts. Both kupperman and mulvaney were in a similar situation, but there are crucial differences. First, kupperman is suing both congress and the president. Mulvaney only wants to sue congress. Again, he is going along with what trump wants him to do. Kupperman is a former employee. Mulvaney still is the acting chief of staff and the head of the office of omb. And the biggest difference, though, is that kupperman is neutral. He really wants to know the answer. He is between a rock and a hard place, between the congress and the president. Mulvaney is all team trump. And so we can assume that whatever he is doing, including this bizarre move of joining this lawsuit is in the interests of donald trump. So what is the interest . Thats a little bit of a different theory than david. Why go into court at all . Again, it could be some stalling tactic. There is no case or controversy with kupperman now. So it sounds like what happens is the judge said look, kupperman came in to see if he has to obey the subpoena. Congress withdrew the subpoena. In that particular instance. In that case. Congress says whenever people who are part of the administration say theyre not going to testify, were just going to chalk that up. Were going to roll right by. But boldin is still seeking this there. Are other court cases in which a judge will decide the same issue. John mcgann way back to the russia investigation, he is in the same position. He is a former position. He has been subpoenaed. He asked the court to tell him what to do, should he obey the president or congress. That case is the furtherst along. Thats different although boltons lawyers have argued the mcgann case is potentially weaker for pelosi and the democrats than this one, because here the full force of impeachment powers are without a doubt in play. Thats exactly right. One of the benefits of this being an official impeachment inquiry is that congress has a right to a lot more evidence. And the president s claims of absolute immunity or executive does not have the same force if there ises no an impeachment inquiry. David, you feel like this is msnbc or court tv tonight . Were right in it. I want to broaden back out. If everyone is saying all these names and all these suits flying by, were still talking about the number one trump aide who handled the money, who was credibly accused by other people of being the instrument innews. Giuliani, outhouse. But he inhouse. And then went out on tv as you emphasized. You cant emphasize this enough when you have Something Like this happened and said yeah, quid pro quo bribery we do it all the time. Get over it. And then tried to retract that. So thats where if he does testify in public, were going to see some version, the most recent, mulvaney 3. 0 which we call that around here post full mulvaney is is what we saw on fox. Take a look, david. You consider asked specifically by Jonathan Karl was investigating democrats one of the conditions for holding up the aid . Was that part of the quid pro quo . And you said it happens all the time. But go back and watch that i said before there not a quid pro quo. You were scad by Jonathan Karl. You described a quid pro quo and you said that happens all the time. And again, reporters will use their language all the time. Ify michigan language never said quid pro quo. Well, he is doing what his boss does, right . Just denying reality, trying to gas light people who heard very clearly what he said. Earlier today we had donald trump say that the democrats are doctoring the transcripts coming out of the investigation when there is absolutely no evidence of that. And, you know, one big question from mulvaney is the acting chief of staff, the acting head of omb, he is acting everywhere. But the people who participated in the ukraine Foreign Policy Decision Making still dont understand, they never got a clear explanation. We see this in a transcript that came out tonight of why the aid is being withheld. If it was coming from the omb and it was always kind of suspicious, if there is no bad reason, what was the legitimate reason . Circumstances thats they never were given a clear understanding. And so they were all very suspicious. Mulvaney is in the middle of that. He is in the middle of what Jacques Bolton called the drug deal to put pressure on witnesses. He is a key witness. Key witness . He might be an alleged coconspirator. He might be that. In the watergate tape case, the Supreme Court said you cant hide wrongdoing under the cloak of executive privilege. David, you said gas light . I said gas light. Youre raising the question of whether the alleged drug deal was cooking up crack with a gas light. A bunnson burner . I think thats how they did it in breaking bad. In the lamp. Yes. Quickly to the point about mulvaney, hes got to be worried about whether donald trump is going to protect him. So they started out with this defense no quid pro quo. Thats not going to work. A whole parade of witnesses to congress has established conclusively that there was. Now it look likes team trump is going to the it wasnt me defense, the shaggy defense. It wasnt me. And theyre going the blame people like giuliani and mulvaney. So if i were mulvaney or if i were mulvaneys lawyer, id tell him to proceed with caution. Dont assume that trump is going to protect you. Were over time. David, briefly, word on that. Thats what happened with dean. He saw it comes and changed his mind. We have testimony already saying talk to rudy coming from trump. So trump acts like the mafioso don who says you know what . I want to fix this thing. You talk to rudy. He knows what to do. Rudy knows what to do. So its going to be very hard for these guys to be asked to pin it on mulvaney. David corn, paul butler on a night of breaking news handed to us while we were doing this very story. Thanks to both of you. Coming up, the roger stone trial. And later, stonewalling republicans with a new defense. Well explain. Neal katyal is also here for opening arguments, when we come back. Every year, our analysts visit thousands of companies, in a multitude of countries, where we get to know the people that drive a companys growth and gain new perspectives. Thats why we go beyond the numbers. T. Rowe price. Invest with confidence. Thats why we go beyond the numbers. Steven could only imaginem 24hr to trenjoying a spicy taco. Burn, now, his world explodes with flavor. Nexium 24hr stops acid before it starts for allday allnight protection. Can you imagine 24hours without heartburn . Do you recall, not long ago we would walk on the sidewalk all around the wind blows we would only hold on to let go blow a kiss into the sun we need someone to lean on blow a kiss into the sun we needed somebody to lean on all we need is someone to lean on its getting real. We are now two days out from the first public hearings in this impeachment probe. Some republicans are now trying to argue what might be a different but better defense for this troubling set of fax, basically admitting President Trump did something bad, even very bad while emphasizing they dont think its impeachable. I believe that it is inappropriate for a president to ask a foreign leader to investigate a political rival. I believe it was inappropriate. I do not believe it was impeachable. I think it is not a Good Practice for ever to ask a foreign country to investigate an american. I dont. Impeachments a serious issue, and i dont see it as impeachable. That interpretation may differ from what many see as the Founding Fathers clearly stated version of what is impeachable, something weve reported repeatedly on this show, bribery. Now what do you do with this reality . Well, donald trump doesnt even like this defense. He is putting people on blast, writing, quote, republicans dont be led into the fools trap of saying it was not impeachment, but is not impeachable. No. It is much stronger than that. Nothing was done wrong. Neal katyal. Im thrilled to tell you neal has a new book you may want to read. It is called impeach the case against donald trump. Its copping out this month. And it looks very intriguing to me. Congrats on that and welcome back. Thank you. Your view of this new argument and donald trump, always a difficult client, pushing back against even this defense. Dios mio, ari. Inappropriate is like when a president wears a tan suit or Something Like that. The allegations here are just about as serious as one could imagine. The president going secretly and asking another government to dig up dirt on his chief political rival and withholding aid in the process. What nikki haley said is well, he didnt succeed. He didnt get away with it, which is a terrible argument. Thats like saying well, i tried to shoot and kill the guy. I missed. Therefore no harm, no foul. That argument doesnt work too well in court. The crime is called attempt. Its called solicitation. Its called conspiracy. Right. There are any number of ways to put it. And ari, as you have said and written so eloquently in the Washington Post, bribery is one of two offenses that the founders actually put in the constitution as a high crime and misdemeanor. So i dont think this argument is going anywhere. Believe me, sir, when i was in law school, the idea that you would mention any of my legal writing would be beyond my capacity to imagine. Its very nice of you to say. Viewers may recall because ive discussed it and i did a piece on tv off that piece. But we are seeing as i reported a lot of people digging into the bribery part of it. There is this other thing that i know you have something to say about, which is the idea with donald trump, weve seen it in these lawsuits. Weve seen the skirmishes over it, at least with key star witnesses, can they hold back on testifying or will they ultimately use privilege, something weve been reporting on, to limit the key testimony that they might or would have to give. Your view on the privilege battles to come. Yeah so, there is a descriptive piece which youre asking about which is are these privilege claims going to succeed and so on, but to me there is a much more important normative one which is as americans go into these hearings on wednesday, which are a moment of Civic Education for the whole country to understand what our constitutions about and what the president did, i think the wednesday hearing is going to focus a lot on what the president did with respect to ukraine, and rightly so because of all this evidence about bribery and so on. But what isnt being said is just as important as whats being said. And what isnt being said is that the president has stopped all of his senior advisers in the executive branch from going and telling the truth to congress. And the testimony were getting on wednesday and the testimony weve gotten in these depositions is because brave white house and executive Branch Officials have said im not going to listen to you, mr. President. My job is to the constitution, and im going to go tell the truth. And as we think about what is an impeachable offense, and ari, i completely agree with you that bribesy a centerpiece, but so too is the president s conduct here. He is trying to keep the truth from the American People. Right. About what happened and that is crucial. Let me throw up some evidence for you counselor, and you walk us through it, because its possible that we were talking about this higher in the show. As americans tune, in some may say well, wait a minute, is this just partly a battle with congress . Is that really what impeachment is about . The answer is it depends on whether the executive is abusing power to an extreme degree. Here we have the impeachment articles that at least have made it through the Impeachment Committee in the past. Andrew johnson defying congress. Richard nixon defying congressional subpoenas. Bill clinton allegedly lying to congress. What everyone thinks of the underlying facts, it seems if there is one precedent in common its a president who tries to subvert the other two branches of government does face a credible precedent for that being impeachable. 100 , ari. And ill write in an oped that will come out in about 24 hours, actually nixon, he tried at the beginning to use executive privilege to say witnesses cant come forward. Im going bar them, just as the president here has done. But you know what . Nixon actually backtracked on that. Nixon said at the end of the day, hes going to let those witnesses testify. So here youve got President Trump, whos basically out nixoning nixon, and that is what i think is so damaging. Its not like he can say oh, this is some impeachment proceeding coup against me. Its stacked against me. After after, the majority of the senate who is going to try the case is composed of people from his own party. So the idea that you got to resist at all costs and you cant even let the truth come out is i think a bit preposterous. I think you lay that out well, and its a reminder for people who are interested in the substance. It is a senate trial and a senate controlled by his party. Why wouldnt you, if the facts are on your side, seize on that, to lay it out, what hatched, what was on the call, what did you do, what was as an earlier guest raised the question, what was the legitimate question to freeze the funds, all that stuff. Were certainly not seeing that defense yet. And neal katyal, thank you as always, and everyone at home. In you want more neal, and why wouldnt you, go to msnbc. Com opening arguments. And the book impeach 2 cathe against donald trump. Still ahead, one of the most guilty aides from the Mueller Probe is back. Well tell you why with the stone trial. Thats just ahead. burke at farmers insurance, we know a thing or two because weve seen a thing or two. 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Now to another story were following that gets crowded out by the other big news Donald Trumps longest serving adviser roger stone is on trial right now for multiple felonies and it is about to get hot because rick gates the guilty former Trump Campaign aide and Paul Manafort partner will testify for the prosecution. Today the feds said after gates takes the stand he will then have completed his cooperation from the Mueller Probe and will be sentenced. Gates of course is one of many trump linked witnesses in this trial. Steve bannon cutting through part of stones defense by telling jurors already that he saw stone as a, quote, access point to wikileaks, and claimed stone boasted about his tloiflio julian assauge. He also said stone discussed wikileaks more than once which conflicts with stone telling congress that he never communicated with any Trump Officials about wikileaks. Stone is presumed innocent and pled not guilty. Reporter my favorite piece is without a doubt this actual product. A roger stone stone. This actually might be the perfect emblem of this whole stupid time were all living in. If one of the president s key allies is a discount dick tracy villain we might as well face it weve all hit literal rock bottom. Rock bottom. Get it . Well, to paraphrase a great emcee, next phase, new wave, its still rock n roll to me. You know who that is . You can tweet us about it. Coming up we have one more update for you on the famous tax fight. Thats next. Pain happens. Aleve it. With aleve pm. The only one to combine a safe sleep aid. And the 12hour pain relieving strength of aleve. So. Magic mornings happen. Theres a better choice. Aleve pm. I am royalty of racing, i am alfa romeo. Tailored recommendations, taxefficient investing strategies, and a dedicated advisor to help you grow and protect your wealth. Fidelity wealth management. To help you grow and protect your wealth. 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A federal judge in washington dismissed trumps lawsuit seeking to block House Democrats from a new york state law that would obtain his returns. The judge says trump cant actually sue new york officials in federal court and added trump could sue potentially in new york state so that case will continue if he sues again. Thats it for me. Hardball is up next. Truth be told, lets play hardball. Good evening im Chris Matthews in washington. Today begins an historic and consequential week for the country as the impeachment inquiry enters a dramatic new phase. For the first time the American People will hear directly from the Foreign Service professionals who witnessed the trump ukraine scandal as it unfolded. U. S. Ambassador bill taylor and assistant deputy secretary of state george kent will testify in a public hearing on wednesday fo