Any if you testimony from mueller that hasnt happened yet as a let down. My sense is that bob is going to testify, hes going to stick to the, he said his report is his testimony. And now i expect his testimony is going to be his report. I think hes going to stick to the report. In that sense, i think its going to be the great let down. Donald trumps lawyer makes two claims. One is an opinion, everyone has a right to review this hearing but reviewing it and stating it opinions sight unseen is not very credible. The other is factual in nature, the assertion his testimony will stick to the report. Fact check, and fact checks dont always end with someone being wrong. Jay sekulow is correct about that. Here at the beat wiig scoured the 60 plus times mueller addressed congress. He does stick to his plan and the facts. He avoids theatrics and focuses testimony on the public investigative materials and he tends to swat away questions that depend more sensitive information. So im telling you tonight our reporting suggests mueller will sticking to that same plan next week and questions designed to get him beyond the muellers report caref balancing act will probably get the mueller treatment. He can just quote from the report in answer to questions, part of what he did on his only public remarks on this probe to date. Asset forth in the report after that investigation if we had had of confidence that the president clearly did not commit a crime, we would have said so. Democrats are working to turn up the heat on team trump before this hearing begins revealing plans to subpoena some of the Mueller Reports biggest witnesses, guilty mike flynn, ousted attorney general Jeff Sessions and of course, soninlaw jared kushner. Plus others linked to the hush mobe payments from the 2016 campaign which is part of a crime that Michael Cohen confessed to. As the house prepares for this mueller stand off, the issues here are broader than even that next set of subpoena skirmishes or whether the house ultimately opens a formal impeachment probe. I want to tell you tonight, the question is whether the mueller hearings will finally take up one of the most Important Documents of this admittedly gonzo political era and bring it to life for americans. Because this report is damning. It is exclusivive. In some ways it is scary. Weve read it. Ive read it more than once. It details a foreign operation to kneecap our democracy as we know it and also finds no chargeable election conspiracy by the Trump Campaign and it also finds substantial evidence that President Trump committed the crime of obstruction more than once in office. Its important stuff. But as with all things in politics and life, you have to know about it to care about it. Most americans havent read the report so they dont know how strong muellers evidence is and thats understandable. Theyre busy with jobs and life. What if your job is to do oversight of the executive branch . Many members of congress havent read this report either over a dozen openly admitted to politico they didnt sit down and read the whole thing. Some even had the whats the point. What about people who have joined this book club, the only republican to call for impeachment, congressman amash i mentioned earlier left the party over this issue. He read the Mueller Report and he says the vast majority of his colleagues have not. People at home arent reading the Mueller Report. Most people dont have time to read a 448page report. They expect their members of congress to do the work. How many of your colleagues do you think have actually read the Mueller Report. Probably less than 15 . Id say thats probably the case on both sides of the aisle. Both sides of the aisle. Thats important. Theres no greater proof youre uninterested in actual facts as a politician than ignoring the evidence, whether its republican politicians to dont want to know the criminal evidence against trump in this report or from democrats who dont want to know how vigorous lis mueller investigated a potential conspiracy and wrote down in here there was insufficient evidence to charge him. Members of Congress Acting like this predates this pretrump era. And makes us think of fahrenheit height 911 which touched on congressional ignorance. John conyers admitting the patriot act passed because members didnt know what was in it and didnt read it. How could Congress Pass this act without even reading it. Sit down, my son. We dont read most of the bills. Do you really know what that would entail . We dont read most of the bills. Credit him for his honesty. And maybe most of the bills, the ones that dont pass, the ones written by one person with no fact finding or evidence investigation, maybe most of those bills dont all need to be read by line. This isnt most bills. With that, we turn to an analysis of why this mueller hearing has the white house on edge. Maya wiley, and former federal prosecutor john flannery. John, if they havent read it, should they read it . And will they learn something as well as the rest of america next week. I think they should be fired. When i was on the hill during the starr report, we received it in september of 98, yes. And we sat there in separate rooms and read it cover to cover. And we had successive meetings talking about it in great detail. So i cant imagine a greater failure for a congress than to decide to protect it against the usurp participation of its power by the chief executive contemplated in the 1787 constitution that was concerned that a president with a monarch cal bent would do exactly what were dealing with now and theyre not even reading the facts to know about it. Thats a shame and disgrace. I dont think theres any other way to put it. Maya, the way weve heard it from the white house as a showed is hey, because its only going to be based on the Mueller Report, it is therefore a let down. Is that true. Thats what they hope. I think we heard from william barr he knows its not true. Thats why he wanted to pour cold water over it, call it a spectacle and also sort of signal to bob mueller hey, we got your back if you dont want to do this. The reality is, they all know as the rest of us do when Robert Mueller gave that very brief press conference and simply said essentially what his findings from the report were, you saw a bump in the number of americans who were now more willing to support some form of impeachment investigation and thats because for many, it became much clearer that what william barr told us the report said was not the same thing that they were hearing from Robert Mueller. So what is critical here are two things. One, that they will Pay Attention because Robert Mueller will say it himself. It doesnt have to be embellished. All you have to do is read some of these facts to realize how disturbing and shocking they are in particular on obstruction although not only on obstruction. And secondly, congress has to in order to have its effective subpoena fights lay the foundation from Robert Mueller in terms of the importance of the evidence he found why they need subpoenas to hear from these witnesses themselves. So they also have a legal job to do here in terms of having mueller testify. John, tack a listen to some of the reporting weve done as we went through the archives because when bob mueller gets the questions he doesnt want answered, for example, beyond the report or speculating or even beefing with barr, he has spent a lifetime, 60 hearings we counted, dismissing those kind of questions. Take a look. Right. I hesitate to speculate because i have just a piece of the puzzle also. I would have to check to make absolutely certain. In every investigation, and particularly a fastmoving investigation, there are steps that are taken that may or may mot work out. Its very difficult to generalize or to reach some sort of understanding or make progress with that generalization. John . Well, its how you question any witness. Ive dealt with witnesses as youre suggesting he might act next week. In his case, he cant be said to be speculating after 22 months of investigation. He cant shirk a responsibility and it should be put to him in this way for cleaning up the confusion in this country given the misleading statements by barr who basically acted as a mouthpiece for the president and disassembled the conclusions that he came up with. Now, he cant say hes a standby after he wrote letters to barr complaining about what barr did. And theres one letter he wrote we dont even know what it said. It seems to me at the hearing when hes sitting there, the question is put, you said such and such in your report. Isnt that a fact . Isnt that perfectly right and quoting his footnotes saying that congress has the responsibility to go forward and asking him, do we need any more as you suggest in your testimony to go forward with impeachment. Thats a discussion that should be had and he should be asked about in the second part of the report how he said his investigation was unfinished and it was unfished because he said the fbi hadnt done a thorough investigation of the crime that we know to be collusion transported to a criminal conspiracy but they never finished that investigation. Why is that, mr. Special counsel . Why didnt you do that investigation . Did barr top you . Did rosenstein stop you . Give us an explanation. The country deserves it and needs to know why you didnt finish what you were told to do. These are Big Questions for the democratic house. It almost makes you wish if you believe that jan flannery is on to a good line of questioning, makes you wish some of the members that have committee are listening to you, sir. With that in mind, stay with me. I bring in california congressman ted lieu who serves on the Judiciary Committee which will question mueller next week. Thank you for joining us, sir. Thank you, ari. Yes or no, have you read the report. I have. Yes or no, do you think justin amash is basically right that most of your colleagues have not. I think hes somewhat right. It is a long report but if you simply read the executive summaries for each volume, you can get the gist of it. I at least implore my colleagues to do that. Interesting given the framework weve been discussing. Your reaction to what youve heard from our lawyers here. Anything else you want to add right now. Sure, the Mueller Report is very damning. A fair reading shows the russians attacked us in 2016, there was some collusion and a lot of obstruction of justice. We need Robert Mueller to highlight the relevant portions of his report. Were not looking for a hail mary. We just need a first down. Every week were progressing down the field and we look forward to july 17th when he was provide a lot of this information directly to the American People. What are you going to do and your colleagues going to do if as weve found he basically goes out of his way to not say anything that isnt already written in the report . Ive just mentioned why i think as an educational matter what everyones bleens out there, its good to have a forum for people in congress and america to understand whats in the report. What are you going to do if he says hey, im not going beyond the report. Im totally fine with that. This report has a lot of very damning evidence in it. If he would high lie the obstruction of justice sections he can walk the American People through how donald trump essentially committed multiple felonies as president in obstructing justice. Were trying to get the fact ises of the Mueller Report out and bring them to life. Love the mueller is a perfect witness to do that. Congressman, i want to give you the benefit of responding to the attorney general. Youre on the Judiciary Committee which oversees the justice department. It sounds like hes of the view he already knows what you and your colleagues are going to ask and he know whats muellers answers are and hes determined its all a spectacle. Take a look. I dont think that serves any purpose dragging bob mueller up if he in fact is going to stick to the report. It seems to me the only reason for doing that is to create some kind of public spectacle. Your response, sir . So why is bill barr so scared of Robert Mueller testifying . Its because mueller is going to contradict what bill barr did in representing the report to the American People. Robert mueller is going to show that there was a lot of the obstruction of justice and bill barr when he represented this report he really failed the American People. Thats why i think bill barr is scared. Maya wiley, the last word goes you to having walked us through this entire presentation. What do you think is most important for americans watching who have heard about the Mueller Report who are obviously interested if nothing else to see how he sounds next week when we actually watch something we in our reporting said at times may be quite dry and careful. Its not going to be rob mueller saying theres one more thing i featherweight to mention here, the president s a crook. Thats not really how it goes down. The way this is going to work does exactly as john said and as representative lue said, getting Robert Mueller to really focus his attention on just say what the report says in key parts. Its not the 448 pages. Its the you said that there were people who materially lied and some of them you brought charges against. How many other lied that you didnt bring charges against . I mean, i would really you can ask the question in a way that focuses the attention and just asks him to answer a fact question. And walking through each one of those ten primary instances of donald trump asking people to lie, fabricate evidence, just walking through those is i think not so dry. Its pretty powerful stuff. The other thing i would listen for is what he will not answer because of ongoing investigations. Right. And thats a reminder in the back of this thick, youve got several referrals and that is a legitimate thing both for fairness and for the prosecutorial strategy they have to not necessarily spill all the tea. Maya wiley, john flannery, and kong grass man lue on the committee next week, everyone is pretty interested. I appreciate you being part of our coverage tonight. We have a lot more to come including new heat on a man that many think of as Donald Trumps biggest enabler. Mitch mcconnell with a new challenger and civil rights talk. And the first republican lawmaker to defect from the party, no waves in a new debate what it takes for the gop to stand up to donald trump and the implications for 2020. All that, plus one of our personal favorites i always keep it real with you. I love her. Her names barbara rez and here on the beat tonight to talk about new york dialing up with the heat that the 0 force loose Donald Trumps state tax returns. Youre watching the beat on msnbc. Ure watching the beat msnbc. flight attendants when you have nausea, heartburn, indigestion, upset stomach, diarrhea. vo try new pepto liquicaps for fast relief and ultracoating. flight attendants nausea, heartburn, indigestion, upset stomach, diarrhea. vo get powerful relief with new pepto bismol liquicaps. Youre smart,eat you already knew that. But its also great for finding the perfect used car. Youll see what a fair price is and you can connect with a truecar certified dealer. Now youre even smarter. This is truecar. When you start with a better thats no way to treat a dog. You can do no wrong. Where did you learn that . The internet. Yeah . Mmm with no artificial preservatives or added nitrates or nitrites, its all for the love of hot dogs. Mmm, exactly ug Liberty Mutual customizes your Car Insurance, so you only pay for what you need. Nice but uh, whats up with your partner . Oh we just spend all day telling everyone how we customize Car Insurance because no two people are alike, so. Limu gets a little confused when he sees another bird that looks exactly like him. Ya. Hell figure it out. Only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. What is it going to take . Have you ever heard anyone ask that, what is it going to take for republicans in congress and other conservative leaders to stand up to donald trump when you look at so many things hes done that are against what they say theyve stood for, some of them their whole careers. It is official, the first republican member of the house to formally defect from the Republican Party in the trump era and theres blowback that is illustrative of something larger than any single congressional seat. Justin amash is a famously independent sort of libertarian congressman has now left the Republican Party. Tonight its official. He filed as an interpret and sends a notice to Republican Leaders hes withdrawing from the House Republican conference immediately, forfeiting his seat on a Key Committee and basically giving up some power in exchange for trying to save his see the. A punctuation to where this all began, an amash the rare member of the Republican Party who read the Mueller Report and said hey, this is not 00. He made a call for impeachment hearings, a probe and now in his first interview since leaving the Republican Party he says all of this needs to be dealt with. When i was discussing impeachment, i had fellow colleagues and other republicans high level officials contacting me saying thank you for what youre doing. There are lots of republicans outs there saying these things privately but theyre not saying it publicly. I think thats a problem for our country. The a problem of obviously fear in the face of the trump little era. Amash says all of this has turned into kind of a partisan death spiral. He wants to declare his independence from the gop. Political context is broader even bhf l before defecting there are reports he would face a tough primary challenge because of his stance on impeachment. While many, many credit him for what hes doing, he has to formally with craw from the Republican Party in order to insure he can run as an independent. This goes to the larger issue of how primaries work now to insulate donald trump to the basically be a weapon against anyone in many red districts who stands up against him. Remember mark sanford . He said trump was nothing but trouble and ousted from his seat in a primary or senator jeff flake, another critic of trump, he didnt withdraw from the Republican Party but didnt run for reelection and admitted he quinton win the primary. Consider some of the people who left of the party over trump like george will and Steve Schmidt and max boot who accused the Republican Party of losing its values and saying schmidt said look, this is not even an independent political party. Its just a party of trump. Im joined by columnist Michelle Goldberg and editoratlarge for reason magazine matt welch. This does answer the question whether its at picnics or cocktail parties or anyplace people discuss politics of bothing what it takes for amash as a constitutional conservative, what it takes and what happens. He couldnt stay he believes in the Republican Party and criticize donald trump. Right. You remember right after donald trump was elected and there was this feeling of incredible pervasive crisis . There was the saturday night live skit about how a grateful nation is waiting for republican tk to come out and do the right thing and everybody wondered that would that be. In the saturday night live skit theyre created with rapturious applause. In real life theyve been basically been consigned to the margins because of how much the base of the Republican Party, i think what were learning is a lot of these doctrines particularly the libertarian economic doctrines that jeff flake and justin amash sincerely believe in were at beast resentments at the base of the Republican Party. Theyre happy to jettisoned all the rest of it. Isnt it a wider thing about political loyalty . Bill clinton will an impeachment issue. Joe lieber plan went to the senate floor and rebuked him and was very critical more so than many republicans. The Democratic Party responded by clintons running mate making Joe Lieberman his running mate and the democratic electorate welcomed there as a page it yourer. Is there Something Different in the culture of the Republican Party . Democrats in general are much more concerned how theyre viewed by the country as a whole. The name of move on now one of the most famous progressive groups in the country came out of what was considered the left response to the clinton impeachment which was skens sure and move on. There was no debate. You said something so important. Let me get matts response. Michelle is pointing us out to a very basic piece of history that the Democratic Partys position in the mainstream on bill clinton, its president , censure was harsher than its position today on trump which is no impeachment no censure. The moveon. Org would go love to impeach trump. I dont necessarily agree that justin amash or anybody else or certainly jeff flakes sense of economic conservativism or constitutional conservativism was from their own point of view embroidery. I said therebies was sincere and were now seeing a lot of the base party never cared about all that stuff. Or they still think they care about this stuff but thats not worth losing their next election over. Its the death eaters moment of the party. What happens when is your party is in power tells you everything and the person that all republican vote ares are key off of is donald trump. Its not Lindsey Grahams voters who think about graham every day. He realizes they think about donald trump every day. It turns turns out like mike pence who is said for years that free trade and nafta is important. They can ditch all of those in a hot second and not have to worry about it. I think what justin amash does is makes an institutional argument. Its a good one that predates his calling for impeachment. Congress doesnt do its job, period, right now. Whatever is negotiated with the Senate Majority leader and the House Speaker and the president in most cases and they kind of present a fait accompli and youre supposed to vote at the end of the year in the big omnibus yes or no. Everything else is a partisan scrum you use to make money off of. The whole thing is broken whether nancy pelosi is the head of the house of representatives or something else. You said kromny bus, omnibus mixed with a crone na which is important, too. Which you can get on up with david gura on saturday morning. Final thought other than plugging up which is a great show. My friend wrote this great book about people who break ranks. Why some people are sort of willing to reject a corrupt institution, other people go along. Its often the people who are true believers who are the ones who finally, the ones who kind of cant abide corruption and compromise because they they really believed it in the first place. Thats why you see people like justin amash, jeff flake, mark sanford, these are very, very conservative men ho took all this stuff seriously. Were seeing how few people in the Republican Party took that tea Party Ideology seriously. Thats a great point. Youve written in ways i think people know where you stand. Youre crediting what is genuine views that sometimes its the people more conservative but in a genuine way that are beefing and the other folks who appear to go along with anything. Ted cruz stood up to all of this up till he couldnt and now doesnt at all. Michelle and matt, thanks to both of you. Theres a law just passed in new york that would give congress to trumps tax returns. A democrat launching a campaign to unseat Mitch Mcconnell and much more in 30 seconds. Unseatn much more in 30 seconds. Senator mcconnell taking new heat today and making controversial comments about race and bringing obama into it. He was responding to an nbc new reports that notes his great, great grandfathers slaves, his stance on preparations. Here senior mcconnell bringing obama into it. I find myself once again in the same position as president obama. We both oppose reparations and we both are the descendants of save holders. The new yorkers jelani cobb helps us get into that and a lot more. It is a historical fantastic that Barack Obamas ancestors if you go back far enough included slave owners on his mothers side and he is a descendent of one of the first documented slaves on his mothers side. Mcconnell is clearly trying to troll or excite and get people away from the news that he faces a very ked credible challenge from a retired marine fighter pilot, amy mcgrathing. Everything thats wrong in washington had to start some place. It started with this man who was elected a lifetime ago. And who has bit by bit year by year turned washingtoning into something we all despise. Where dysfunction and chaos are political weapons, a place where ideals go to die. Gel manny cobb is here. Good to see. When we get a story like this, and this is a story i think you would agree, i like having you around. You are a nonpundit. And so im not going to ask you about the kentucky cross tabs poll. I am going to ask you, what we should make of the device that mr. Mcconnell is using and what is the substantive take away in your view. There are a lot of things to talk about here. One is that its obscene for Mitch Mcconnell to compare himself to barack obama in that regard. Now, true, Barack Obamases a typical in that he is a descendent of shave loaders on his mothers side. Does Mitch Mcconnell really want to talk about if youre looking at the single largest grouping of people who are descendants of lav holders you would be looking at africanamericans because of the institutionalization you have rape of black women during slavery. And so most of us could say the same that were descendants of slave holders. Youre observing a historical fact that if you go down this road of ancestry, black americans. Thats right. Have to put it in mr. Mcconnells terminology the descendents of save holders because they were institutionally raped as a part of sexual slavery. Thats right, thats right. So the whole foundation of the question of reparations at least as it pertains to slavery is to repair the damage thats been done beginning there and passing down through successive generations. And so no, that doesnt get you off the hook, mr. Mcconnell. Its an obscene kind of inversion of a very traumatic and morally troubling aspect of american history. He also seems to be trying to say through this device to the public, well, debate over our history will get very potentially allegedly confusing very quickly. Uhhuh. But not really. I think what he right, you dont think so and you make a very good point. Hes sort of trying to say that. I put on the screen the naacp rating of his civil rights record. History is relevant also for how we live and what we do. He has an abusiness malrecord on civil rights which is a difference between barack obama in terms of what theyre doing with their power in office. Thats right. If were going to talk about this, barack obama has inherited race as a headwind. Its something that had to be navigated in his life. Mitch mcconnell race has been a tailwind. And when we talk about you know, my friend ed baptist in his book half has never been told, theres a body of literature on this historians have written in the ways in which the wealth generated by slavery has passed down success esfully through nugs institutions and corporations and so on. When we look at these questions, its not kind of abstract that we can going oh, lets muddy the waters and dont understand whats happening here. The moral lines are very clear. Maybe this is an attempt to distract from the entry of miss mcgrath into this race bus it has the potential of actually going down the roads of some very ugly historical paths no more beneficial to him i dont think. What do you think is the message to people who want to overcome to use the language of the 1960s but say gosh, why are we always talking about history . If you dont understand the present without talking about lift. The present is the product of the past. And we dont have any problem with that as it pertains to the things we think are virtuous about there country. If we talk about the roots of the constitution and the things the framers were concerned about or why theres a first and second amendment. What the 14th amendment means, all these things we think are the hallmarks of american democracy that can be proudly shown to the rest of the world. In that case, the past is perfect. We can always import that into the present. Talking about the ugly legacy of this country, its foundational sin of exploiting africans and nearly exterminating the indigenous population that became the basis of what we call the oldest constitutional democracy in this country who remind ourselves democracy in this country is younger than the actual constitution. Whether he were talking about the ways in which american democracy was birged by the struggles of people who have been excluded from it to turn this into a fair assemblage of what could be called a democratic nation when we see the relevance of history. Nobody wants to go there. I hope people are listening closely. You said several important things. One of the things you just said is democracy is much younger than this country. Oh, yeah. And the nostalgia of the political movements that attach to make America Great which was reagan and trump, imagines a time when things were much better. And that have of course, then raises the difficult question of better for whom because as a democracy, it wasnt a democracy for women for most of history or minorities or for the native americans wiped out in genocide. At what point do we have conversations as part of the daily politics and news because they are not eeth. They are the overorganizing fight thats happen snug cant have a democracy when the majority of the population is disenfranchised. Were still having the struggle now. Look at whats happening in 2016 on the horizon for 2020 and the battles over voter access and Voter Suppression and these kinds of things. But at the beginning, the outset of the country is very clear. Most people who lived in this country could not vote. So its problematic to say we will start with the kind of halcyon days of american controlalism and talk about the ideals of the founders without talking about the ways they were circumvenned by race i didnt feel, sexism, by classism, by the struggles that people to this day are waging to actually have a decent shot at living in a democraticfation. Very important points, jelani cobb. Mcconnells challenger amy mcgrath will be on this network next hour on hardball. I wanted to make sure you now knew that. Donald trump defending a top aide under fire for the deal he struck with sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. A lot more on that. Democrats with a new plan to get trumptachs in his home state and breaking news on a new rebuke for trump on this census controversy, the controversy that keeps on giving coming up. Y that keeps on givi cngoming up i have one kid in each branch of the military, but im command central. Its so important to us that verizon is supporting military families. When i have a child deployed, having a Reliable Network means everything. So, when i get a video chat, and i get to see their face, its the best thing in the world. And ive earned every one of these gray hairs. Military moms, we serve too. vo the network more people rely on, gives you more. Like military plans with a special price on unlimited, 100 per line, and big savings on our best phones when you switch. Thats verizon. I want it that way. I cant believe it. That karl brought his karaoke machine . Aint nothing but a heartache. No, i cant believe how easy it was to save hundreds of dollars on my Car Insurance with geico. I never wanna hear you say. No, kevin. No, kevin believe it geico could save you fifteen percent or more on Car Insurance. New developments in the fight to get Donald Trumps taxes on his home turn. Andrew cuomo signing a bill allowing congress to legally take his state tax returns whether he likes it or not. The idea is that congress will fulfill its responsibilities so that no one is above the law. New york is trumps home state and the home of the trump organization, an many of his real estate interests. The new law comes as many are suing to get federal returns. We turn to former trump trump executive barbara res and an author to boot. Thanks for being here. My pleasure. How does donald trump see when he sees his native new york here this week pass an explicit law to get his state returns. Yeah, he feels like everyones after him and thats just another example of oh, my god, the world is closing in on him. Is he worried about it . At this point, i dont think so. Not yet. I think he thinks his lawyers will protect him. Look what hes done. This is dealing with Little New York state. I mean, hes managed to avoid subpoenas. Hes not listening to the supreme court. He doesnt follow any rules at all. I think hes probably taking this okay for now. Why do you think he hides his taxes . You know, at first i thought well, it had something to do with maybe the charitable contributions that he doesnt make. And then you know, maybe he doesnt make as much money as he says he does. And hes always been that way, years and years and years. But now im wondering if it isnt just the financing where that moneys coming from. It could be embarrassing or unsavory. Or yeah. When you worked for him, did it feel like traditional exaggeration . Theres plenty of folks in business and media who hype or was it more acute, almost more intense . It was absurd. About everything. The things he said about his schooling, about his wife being an olympic athlete, you know, everything was completely you almost how can i believe this . Interestingly enough in the beginning most of us believed a good deal of what he said. Because you know, you think people are going to be honest and hes your boss. What changed your mind. After enough time and also finding out the facts. He would Say Something and then you would see it was just completely wrong. I read and i always like to rely you for extra insights. I read he didnt really vacation or spend time with many friends. Was that your experience working for him . Yeah, he hated christmas because he went away for a week. I dont think he wanted to leave the company alone without him. You know, we would all do something. Barbara, i wouldnt say im an expert on christmas and its culture but i think when you make a list of people throughout history who hate christmas, its a short list, no . Yeah. Well, you know they went to aspen and he likes to ski. But he didnt he didnt also, by the way, christmas meant bonuses and that killed him to giveaway money. If we get if the United States actually gets the new yorktach returns, what do you think would be the most important take away on the say theside of that information. I think its going to be just what federal stuff rolled into the state because you know, whats your Number Online 42. It goes right into the state. It mimics the federal tax. Theres going to be a lot of information in there. You know what i think the kids would say but, barbara . What. You keep it real. Thank you. You know we appreciate you. The one and only bar bra res. I hope youll come back. I would love to come back. Im going to fit in a quick break. We have breaking news. Ot only this epstein saga with donald trump defending the cabinet secretary who brokered this sweetheart deal but a new rebuke in court. Well explain. New rebuke in court. Well explain. [alarm beeping] {tires screeching} {truck honking} avo life doesnt give you many second chances. But a subaru can. dad you guys ok . You alright . Wow. avo eyesight with precollision braking. Standard on the subaru ascent. Presenting the threerow subaru ascent. Love is now bigger than ever. 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Well, its one of those nights. Breaking news right here in our nbc headquarters. A new rebuke by a federal judge for the Trump Justice Department in that controversial census case. Basically, its looking like it will be harder for the trump doj to swap out the lawyers, which is one of the latest controversies in that case. Thats breaking, and i have a lawyer to get into that and a whole lot more, because the other big story is the fallout in the Jeffrey Epstein sex trafficking case. Donald trump came out today and defended acosta over calls to resign that he gave epstein a lenient plea deal in 2008. Trump says he feels bad for acosta. Many of the details were exposed in a 2018 miami herald investigation by journalist julie brown. I started this project before the launch of the me too movement, before Harvey Weinsteins story broke, but i did i think the story and my journalism benefitted from the me too movement because we certainly are at a point in our culture where were looking at these cases, or i should say giving these cases a lot more scrutiny. Scrutiny and a lot more facts, which is important. Browns reporting so crucial, sdny prosecutors also cited it when they announced these charges this week. We were assisted from excellent investigative journalism. We work with facts. When the fax presented themselves as mr. Berman hinted at through investigative journalist work, we moved on it. They moved on the fax. Facts matter. That office, which youve probably heard of for its toughness, the sdny is acting as part of the Trump Justice Department in a place where this other trump cabinet official acosta isnt back when he was a prosecutor a decade ago. Now sdny has brought a lot of big tough even controversial cases over the past year, and some have gone the other way and put a lot of heat on trump and his associates. Today, as you heard, Michael Cohen plead guilty to eight felony charges. Today we announced criminal extortion charges against michael avenatti. Today we announce the unsealing of sex trafficking charges against Jeffrey Epstein. So how does sdny work . What are they doing . I am joined by jamie nowaday, a prosecutor with that office and your first time on the beat. Thanks for being here. Thanks for having me. The first question for people trying to make sense of this on the substance and how it works, mr. Epstein seems to have gotten a very soft deal from federal prosecutors. Now this week hes getting a much tougher treatment from federal prosecutors. Whats happening . Well, the nonprosecution agreement that was reached in florida binds only the florida prosecutors. So the sdny is a completely separate office. It was not a signatory to the nonprofit agreement in florida. Its not bound in any way by that agreement. So its free to start its own investigation. The way the nonprosecution agreement was carried out and what acosta seems to have done is really go out of his way to shut down the possibility that another office would pick up this case. So here is a prosecutor that trump says he feels badly for who says rather than prosecuting was actually trying to protect. Why . Thats the big question. There are obviously a number of red flags in how this nonprofit agreement was negotiated. The fact that acosta held meetings offsite instead of the u. S. Attorneys office. One of the first things you learn is the eagle doesnt fly. You have meetings at the u. S. Attorneys office. Ive never heard of an assistant u. S. Attorney, let alone the u. S. Attorney himself or herself having meetings at a local hotel with defense attorneys. The eagle doesnt fly because the prosecutors call the shots. So letting this potential defendant decide anything is not how you do it . Correct. Its suggested theyre dictating the terms. And thats exactly what happened here. They were able to dictate the terms in terms of not contacting witnesses, keeping it quiet from the press, and of course acosta shuts down the investigation not only as to epstein, but as to everyone else while the fbi is actively interviewing witnesses across the country. What does it sell you about jeff berman who is a trump appointee, he runs the office you used to work at. What does it tell you that he is willing 20 do something that clearly embarrasses while also going after Michael Cohen, while after going after michael avenatti. I think its an encouraging sign. He came in a tough environment. When Preet Bharara was fired, he was very vocal about the fact that he was fired essentially for his independence. So there is understandable concern across the office who would come in next and would the mission of the office and its independence upheld. So berman really had to come in and give the message to the office that its independence would not be disrupted. And i think he has done a very good job of communicating that message through these various prosecutions there. Is a lot here that is obviously disturbing that weve been covering, but you point to something at least in your view. Is it a positive piece of good news, which is the rule of law and the independence of this office going forward, even amidst tremendous pressure and alleged obstruction. A lot of the stories clinging together a little bit. Jaime nawaday, thanks for coming on the beat. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Well be back with one more thing. Your brain changes as you get older. But prevagen helps your brain with an ingredient originally discovered. In jellyfish. 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Well be back here at 6 00 p. M. Eastern tomorrow with a lot of special stuff, but dont go anywhere because hardball with Chris Matthews is up next. Bad company. Lets play hardball. Good evening. Im Chris Matthews in washington. Tonight Jeffrey Epstein, the shadowy Hedge Fund Manager and multimillionaire is behind bars in new york after the Southern District charged him with sex trafficking of minors and with conspiracy. Epstein pleaded not guilty and faces up to 45 years in jail. Epsteins power gave him entree to the worlds most powerful, rubbing shoulders with the saudi crown prince, donald trump, and former president bill clinton. More than a