Transcripts For MSNBCW The Beat With Ari Melber 20190108

Manafort. Tonight we are learning why that cooperation deal completely fell apart. This is the first time weve heard these details. Muellers investigators apparently saying manafort lied to them about how he shared polling data from 2016 with the kremlinlinked operative. So manafort was allegedly hiding his russian links, even after flipping, which makes the other news tonight even more intriguing. Federal prosecutors indicting the russian you see on the screen in the upper right, that is the russian that Paul Manafort and others met with at trump tower. Other Key Players Like don jr. And jared kushner, she is indicted for obstruction. So before we go any further, why is this all coming out tonight . The indictment of the russian lawyer is public because the feds acted today, a deliberate development. The Manafort News is different, an accident. This whole intricate story unraveling because Paul Manaforts own lawyers accidentally revealed what he was basically up to. So this was supposed to be redacted. Well show it to you. In manaforts response to mueller accusing him of breaking that cooperation deal, we see manafort met with criminallinked operative const Konstantin Kilimnik in madrid. Thats not all. This was during the 2016 campaign. Paul manafort forking over polling data. Not only did manafort allegedly hand off political intel to this russian operative, well, that sounds a little suspicious, right . But according to bob mueller, manafort would then try to cover it up. Now prosecutors bear down on that kind of lying because it suggests the defendant has decided its better to risk committing a new crime of lying to the feds than coughing up the truth. The crime of obstruction is also exactly what the new york feds are using here as i mentioned the russian lawyer from the trump tower meeting. They allege she was intentionally misleading and fabricating evidence from the russian government in secret cooperation with a senior russian prosecutor all for a separate case. We are seeing in this bombshell new pressure on the russian side of the trump tower meeting. You may recall some of this. This is the lawyer who went on tv to disclaim any connections with the russians, she now stands accuseed of those very russian connections. Donald trump jr. Is told that they want to schedule a meeting with him and the russian government attorney, who is flying over from moscow, the russian government attorney. That means you. Translator no. Im certainly flattered by being mocked and called as a government attorney, but i have never worked for the government in the first place. Nbc keir simmons and Richard Engel have reported on this story and broke some of these very documents you see on your screen. Those are now cited in this indictment alleging the government link. Like any defendant, she is still innocent until Proven Guilty in america. So what are we learning tonight . When you take this together, these key developments, what does it tell us about the investigations into the 2016 campaign . Well, lets look at it like this. It all started with some indictments of americans and skeptics of bob mueller argued, well, crimes at home arent collusion. Then we saw remember those indictments of russians, Rod Rosenstein came to the podium and announced them. It was a huge deal. And skeptics said, well, okay, but crimes abroad dont necessarily have help at home in america. So here and here but not here. But now we are seeing a new indictment of a russian who was in america. Not only in america, she was in a room at trump tower with Donald Trumps top aides and family members. Today is the first time we have seen two people in that room, one american, one russian, are now both indicted. The american, of course, pled guilty. What happens with the russian . As i mentioned, as always, innocent until Proven Guilty. Whether theres more information to come out, well, thats what comes next. Joining me now on this very big news day is lawrence tribe, a constitutional law professor at harvard. Hes argued dozens of cases before the supreme court. He advised president obama. The author of many books, including the latest, to end a presidency, which is a study on the power of impeachment. Im also joined by former federal prosecutor Glenn Kershner and natasha. The possibility of there being indictments of multiple people in that room for that fateful meeting that brought them all together, at least one time. Yeah, ari, the veselnitskaya development is a really interesting one. And i think it highlights a couple of potentially important things about who she is and who she was at the time she participated in that trump tower meeting. She was not only meeting with and obviously close to russian government officials and its being reported in the documents released by the Southern District of new york a senior russian prosecutor. Its one thing to be closely aligned to those kind of people, its quite another thing to be involved in conspiring with those people to create false documents and declarations that you will then offer to a court in new york that was going after her, veselnitskayas client, trying to get them to forfeit some properties that he had allegedly used to launder dirty russian money through. So what does it tell us . It tells us that ms. Veselnitskaya was intimately involved with the russian government, with the russian prosecutor and was actually conspireing to commit crimes with them to the disadvantage of the u. S. Criminal justice system. And the other thing, ari, is we learned that the prosecutors have some of her email traffic between veselnitskaya and the russian prosecutor, and when i saw that i thought to myself, boy, were going to be hearing a lot more moving forward about veselnitskayas emails, i suspect. Professor tribe, how do you view this in the larger context of these multiple investigations . Ari, i view it as quite a bombshell. The veselnitskaya part is probably less profound than the manafort part, but i agree with glenn that veselnitskaya is now clearly exposed as an agent of the kremlin so that when an offer was made at that Infamous Trump tower meeting of emails from Hillary Clinton, the offer that donald jr. Said he would love if it came at the right time in the campaign, we now know that thats basically an offer of help from the kremlin and a violation of american law, which forbids accepting offers or soliciting offers of foreign help. As far as manafort is concerned, wu now have the umbilical cord that connects all of the russianside conspiracies with the americanside conspiracies. So, professor, let me draw you out on your first point because mmmhmm. Like any harvard law professor, you speak in multiplepoint thoughts. On your first point, sir, you are saying that the material emerging here adds to the kremlin side of collusion, that that could be for a prosecutor useful combined with presumably other information to tie the person in the trump tower meeting directly back to putin. Correct. And it means that the president s son and the head of the president s campaign and the president s soninlaw, all of those people were soliciting help, not just from some random russian but from the kremlin. As far as the manafort revelation today is concerned, what that shows is that the head of the president s campaign, almost certainly with the president s knowledge, was offering information about secret polling data in the United States to the kremlin. Now, its not that the kremlin makes a hobby of following american politics. The only point of giving them that data would have been to facilitate their intervention in our campaign. It was a quid pro quo because the other thing we learned from that inadvertent revelation was that part of this was involved with helping russia visavis ukraine. Mmmhmm. So all thats all thats missing is a bow to tie this whole thing into a knot. And i think we are now seeing the structure of a multinational conspiracy to help donald trump win the election. Its quite profound. Its profound when you put it like that. Natasha, americans coming home tonight looking at their screen will see a headline that is a bombshell no matter what administration you imagine or what family members you imagine. If you see feds indict foreigner from hostile foreign power who met with guilty Campaign Chair and family members of the president , if it was obama family members, bush family members, this is a bombshell. People expecting that, you know, to be more about thinking about the speech and the shutdown, a lot of other news, this is a bombshell. How do you view it in the context of what muellers doing . Because it is a separate a separate federal prosecution. It is separate, and at first i, like many other observers said, well, we knew for a very long time, for over a year now, that veselnitskaya had these ties to russias chief prosecutor, u prosecutor, and that she had been working very closely with him to undermine the magnitsky act worldwide. That was their entire effort in 2016, especially with regard to the Trump Campaign, was to try to get them to lift these sanctions. But on the other hand, its extremely significant because it shows that the southern bedistrict of new york is lying out in Court Filings the fact that she is a kremlin agent. And legal experts have told me that that is a prelude essentially to for whats to come. Especially if mueller wants to lay out in his own Court Filings that veselnitskaya was working for the russian government when she met with the Trump Campaign at trump tower in june of 2016. So i think for that reason alone, just the fact that shes now been implicated, not only in this major Money Laundering scandal, of course, which is at the heart of the matter, but also that she was working hand in hand with the russian government and that she was not just an informant for the government, as she has claimed in the past to nbc, but also that she was acting essentially as their agent, as someone who was going to go to the United States and try to lobby highlevel officials to lift these sanctions which, of course, was Vladimir Putins top goal, really, over the last eight or so years. Mmmhmm. Especially after the magnitsky act was implemented. Right. I think we have to look at it through that lens. Through that lens, glenn, to natashas point here, if bob muellers playing chess, you start to wonder, are these federal prosecutors in new york his queen . Hes moving it over the board pretty aggressively while sometimes people dont realize how it intersects with what hes planning. Yeah, i think even though theyre separate investigations, i think they are probably coordinating with each other fairly regularly to make sure, one, that theyre not stepping on each others toes. They do have slightly different mandates. I agree with professor tribe, with the revelation of what manafort was concealing from bob mueller about sharing polling information with kilimnik and now we know that veselnitskaya was not only close with but would be in a position to conspire criminally with senior prosecutors and government officials with russia, you can see these tentacles, given these new revelations, just kind of stretching out and pulling the Trump Campaign piece, the trump tower piece and the russia piece closer and closer and closer together. I want to get professor tribe back in. I dont know if anyone would have expected we would be starting the new year with a russian from trump tower being indicted. I mean, that alone tells you about the pace of this investigation. Whatever jurisdiction its coming through. Professor tribe, id like to give you the final word, the closing statement, if you will, on this segment, and also have you listen to some sound that was unearthed today. Funny that it didnt come out earlier, but it was unearthed of donald trump back in the day after his russia visit, toutth that they wanted him to do business there. Interest reg. Take a look. I went to russia at the invitation of the russian people and the russians. I went to russia in order to perhaps build hotels. At their invitation. They want me to build a great hotel in moscow. They still want me to. Im trying to drive the right kind of a bargain, unlike the bargains the city of new york drives. Im trying to drive a tough bargain. They want me back. Theyve asked me back. I may go back. I dont know. I can do the deal in two months, i can do the deal. It will be done on my terms or not at all. Two minutes or three decades, gives or take. Professor tribe, your view of tying this all together. Well, my view is that one of the possible reasons for the bl brouhaha about the wall and the shutdown is to distract attention from the coming together of the russia probe because the president obviously fears being cornered, having the walls collapse on him, and maybe the main reason hes putting so much emphasis on Emergency Powers to build a wall is that he wants to hold the walls back. A very interesting point. One that i think is part of the rest of our coverage. Professor tribe, i want to have you back later in the hour to discuss some of the legal powers the president may try to seize. Glenn and natasha, thank you for joining us on this big story tonight. Coming up, what donald trump could gain or lose from this Oval Office Address tonight. The shutdown is hurting mean people, according to reports around the nag. Maines independent senator angus king is my guest next. Later, as mentioned, the legal debate over this leak that Donald Trumps advisers may help to declare a National Emergency to have military troops involved in some sort of scheme to build the border wall. Later, my interview with a man who is both a witness and a potential target in the russia probe. Jerome corsi fighting with bob mueller in court. Im ari melber. Youre watching the beat on msnbc. I melber youre watching the beat on msnbc. By moments like this. Dont let Psoriatic Arthritis take them away. Taltz reduces joint pain and stiffness and helps stop the progression of joint damage. For people with moderate to severe psoriasis, 90 saw significant improvement. Taltz even gives you a chance at completely clear skin. Dont use if youre allergic to taltz. Before starting, you should be checked for tuberculosis. 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Our other top stories tonight, and the one the president will be addressing the nation about tonight is significant. Think about it like this. We are at the second longest Government Shutdown in American History. 18 days with no end in sight. Just under three hours, President Trump will deliver his address followed by a democratic response from nancy pelosi and chuck schumer. Democrats have already said they reject any case trump would make to justify the border wall, that the country is facing a National Security crisis at the border. A major open question, would trump try to use that claim to declare a National Emergency, which some advisers believe could create a legal path to use military funds to build the wall without congressional approval. Meanwhile, there are reports here that congressional leaders will be back at the white house tomorrow to meet all about the shutdown. Im joined now by senator angus king, independent from maine, who caucuses with the democrats. Thanks for joining me on a very busy night. Sure, ari. Glad to help. Is there an argument the president can make tonight that would make you support funding the wall through congress . Unless he has some extraordinary data that nobodys seen yet, i dont see how. And whats theres a real big question contained within your question is, what is the wall . One of the problems that we have here is that theres been no plan submitted that i know of for what were talking about. Where, how much it would cost, what it would do, what parts of the border it would cover. Thats one of the real issues here is. He keeps talking about something called the wall but we dont really know what he wants. A typical construction project by the federal government, youve got to submit plans and say this is what were going to do. This is how big it will be. This is what it will cost. We have none of that. What does it tell you, senator . You make such a clear point i think people can understand. What does it tell you that the president wants a certain amount of money to say hes won on this, but according to you, does not have any record of putting forward even where the money would go. Thats right. And what it says is, i think hes trying to make good on a Campaign Promise, one that he made hundreds of times. But, of course, also hundreds of times he said mexico was going to pay for it. That part of the Campaign Promise seems to have gone away, but the other piece is that its a crisis. I would refer you to a report by the department of Homeland Security in the Trump Administration september of 2017, about a year ago, about an assessment of the situation on the southwest border. All the numbers are down. Interdictions, arrests, recidivism, everything is way down from where it was at a peak in 2007. Its a problem but to call it a crisis and then to go from that to a National Emergency right. I think is a real stretch and its, frankly, an attempt to endrun our constitutional process, in my view. And senator, weve been speaking to people all across the spectrum on this. Take a listen to a republican congressman who was defending trump in saying theyve got to have some money in the wall to support reopening the government. Who i just interviewed on a previous show. Sure. National security is a huge priority. We have more deaths than crime created because of a porous southern border than problems coming out of the middle east right now. So i think we all need to acknowledge that this is a huge problem and we want to fix the problem. What do you say to that argument, which i guess is a twopart. One, a view of the risk of crime from the southern border. And, two, an assumption that beginning constructing the border wall is the best way to prevent it. Well, i think, again, your question conventions the answer. The first thing to say is, ari, nobody here is for open borders. Im really tired of hearing people say, youre either for the wall or youre for open borders. Thats nonsense. All of us on both sides of the aisle have voted repeatedly for significant investments in border security. The question is, whats the best expenditure of that money in terms of bang for the buck, return on investment . Is it 20 million a mile for a wall or are there places where fencing would be more appropriate or drones or other Sensor Technologies . What, you know, what would be the best use mmmhmm. To deal with the problem, rather than this sort of one size fits all . And, again, it goes back to what i said before. We dont even know exactly what theyre talking about. Theres already wall there. Ive seen it. There are some places where it makes sense. There are other places where it makes no sense and yet we dont know the president s basically asking for a blank check. Let me build a wall. Ill put it where i want. It will look like what i want. You have nothing to say about it. Thats now how this system works. Would you say from Donald Trumps business experience that giving him a blank check is a good idea . I dont think its a good idea to give a blank check to anybody in this situation. Fair enough. If this were a military construction project, theyve got to go through engineering, come to congress. Right. Theres got to be accountability. Thats what the law requires. Thats what the constitution says. Well, senator, i know its a busy night and well all be watching to see what the president says in detail. I really appreciate you making time for the beat tonight. Senator king. Absolutely. Thank you, ari. Sure. The russian lawyer who met with donald trump jr. At trump tower indicted for obstruction of justice. A lot to get to when were back in 30 seconds. In 30 seconds. [glass shattering ] not cool. Freezing away fat cells with coolsculpting . Now thats cool coolsculpting safely freezes and removes fat cells with little or no downtime. And no surgery. Results and Patient Experience may vary. Some common side effects include temporary numbness, discomfort, and swelling. Ask your doctor if coolsculpting is right for you. And visit coolsculpting. Com today for your chance to win a free treatment. Back. We are back. With Donald Trumps speech on the Government Shutdown. And a big question, will he use claims of a crisis at the border to try to bypass congress and build a border wall with military funds . Youve heard trump talk about it. I may declare a National Emergency, dependent on whats going to happen over the next few days. So you dont need congressional approval to build the wall . No, absolutely. We can call a National Emergency because of the security of our country. Absolutely. No, we can do it. We can do it. Or can we . There are many legal questions here. Already, democrats say they would challenge this in court. The ranking republican on the House Armed Services committee coming out against it saying, im opposed to using defense dollars for nondefense purposes. American president s have declared about 54 states of emergency since Congress Passed a 1976 law on this. Because they have to be renewed each year, they automatically expire. Many remain in effect. Joining me now is anita gupta. The president of the leadership flens on civil rights, retired general wesley clark and lawrence tribe is back with us, a constitutional law professor at harvard. Many ways to come at this. General clark, lets start just down the middle. Is this a good idea for the military to be called upon to do something that congress and the president otherwise cant agree how to do . I think its a really bad thing for the United States armed forces to be dragged into this. Were nonpolitical. Well do whatever the commander in chief orders us to do. If its a legal order. The lawyers are going to argue about that, but whether its legal or not, ultimately its political and the men and women in uniform understand it. Theyre being used for an obvious political partisan political purpose here. Its going to hurt. So your view is, even if it were potentially lawful, i mean, a court might ultimately have to rule on it, its just not the place for the military to be sort of the tiebreaker on a shutdown fight of this magnitude . Thats exactly right. And vinita, is it legal . Look, i think that its a direct violation of the constitution for the president to try to usurp congress authority. The house in our democratic system has the power of the purse, and trumps effort to usurp that power on a by creating a fake National Emergency is a violation of the constitution. Its also, i mean, you know, i think it really is important to understand that this is entirely a manufactured crisis. The president is in a legal and political trouble, is appealing to his base, is creating this this whole crisis and now is trying to use it to legitimatize taking funds to create this thing that nobody can quite identify or understand. There will be enormous amounts of litigation. There will be a lot of oversight and moves on congress. This is ultimately really detrimental to our democracy. Mind you, of course, meanwhile, while all of this is happening, we have federal employees, thousands and thousands them around the country who arent getting paychecks, including some who are actually tasked with providing border security. Thats the irony here. So we have to watch what happens tonight and what the president says with great alarm because of the kind of degree of threats it carries to our democracy and to the military. Professor tribe, this, unlike some things that come out of washington, is an idea that has, i think, to Many Americans and to the courts an initial appeal. Because when you say military, you go right to a body of law where courts have often said ed in realtime they dont want to secondguess a commander in chief. Then when you dig into it, you end up bumping into a lot of other cases which say yes, but that doesnt mean that the president can say the word military and steal money out of the treasury that isnt been appropriated. Judge napolitano, a conservative on fox, laid some of this out for their audience. Take a look. He can declare a state of emergency, but the declaration itself does not give him the power to take private property. It doesnt allow him to spend money the congress hasnt authorized. So he would have to make the case that all the assets he now has, including the military, are not enough. Where do you come down on this one, professor . Well, i certainly believe that what the president wants to do is unlawful, and, indeed, dangerous. Im not as confident as some people may be that the courts will agree because of the deference they often show to the president. Mmmhmm. But the context is important. The declaration of a National Emergency is what leaders in democracies use to appropriate authoritarian powers. It happened after the reich staug fire. It happened after the manila bombing. It happened after the coup in turkey with erdogan. Now, of course, the president can some point to specific law. There is something in the u. S. Code, 10 u. S. Code 2808, that says you can reshuffle some money for military construction. This is not military. We know that its fake. We know that the president we may have are not going to have a separate rule just for trump. Professor, im going to jump in im jumping in to alert you, were having some technical difficulties. But pick up on the point you were making. I think we may have lost you for a moment. You were saying even with the statute under law, there are limits. Go ahead. Well, there are limits. And the limits, whether theyre enforced by judges or whether judges will defer to trump are ultimately going to come up before the house of representatives. I think the crucial thing is, among other things, that adam schiff and the intelligent committee, Gerald Nadler and the Judiciary Committee are going to look into whether the president is stretching his powers in order right to undermine the separation of powers. Professor, let me push you on one piece and whip around to get our other panelists in. You made several references to foreign leaders. I think some people would view that potentially provocative. Couldnt a solicitor general of the United States cite plenty of u. S. Leaders like fdr and truman who certainly within the law at least pushed to see where the courts would stop them on emergency and military powers . Theres no question that president s like roosevelt and lincoln and truman, in actual war circumstances, have stretched the law. But we have had no instance in American History where a president for obviously political reality tv purposes as usurped congressional powers. This is unlike any National Emergency we have seen. Its an attempt by the president to assume powers that belong to the other branches. And even if the courts dont see it that way, congress in hearings that look to possible abuses of power and high crimes and misdemeanors, may see it that way. Thats where the ultimate remedy may have to come. Vanita, your view on that. The professor mentioning within his criticism, he could see this is an area he could see the court might back up trump, depending on what he does. Well, you know, i think were going to have to focus on what he says tonight in the manufacture crisis. The medias devoting all this time. I think there is a real question why the networks are carrying this to begin with. Remember, this is all a piece of his political agenda. From the start, the president has been demonizing immigrants. It has been an electoral and rhetorical tactic. Now hes trying to usurp, rightly as professor tribe described, authoritarian measures to violate our separation of powers and declare this fake National Emergency to kind of distract the country and carry out his political agenda. And i think that there will be a lot of litigation in court. It will be over the constitutionality of this. It will be over eminent domain. Right. It will be over any number of issues. And congress is going to have a really Important Role to play. Well hear from Speaker Pelosi and senator schumer after, but this is, again, this is harming real people in real communities, and also undermining our democracy. And i think that that the courts absolutely will have a very crucial role to play. Vanita gupta, wesley clark and lawrence tribe, thanks to each of you. Thank you. Straight ahead, a witness and potential target in the Mueller Probe. Long connected to roger stone. Hes here live. Come on out, sir. Back on the beat, mr. Jerome corsi when we come back. Jerome corsi when we come back. Its easy to move forward when youre ready for what comes next. At fidelity, we make sure you have a clear plan to cover the essentials in retirement, as well as all the things you want to do. And on the way, youll get timely investment help to keep you on the right track, without the unnecessary fees you might expect from so many financial firms. Because when you have a partner who gives you clarity at every step, theres nothing to stop you from moving forward. Got it. Ran out of ink and i have a big meeting today and 2 boxes of twizzlers. Yeah, uh. For the team. The team . Gooo team. Order online pickup in an hour and, now buy one hp ink get one 30 off at Office Depot Officemax every day, visionaries are creating the future. So, every day, we put our latest technology and vast expertise to work. the United States Postal Service makes more ecommerce deliveries to homes than anyone else in the country. Ed gets copays as lowlily go to as zero dollars ono homes Medicare Part d prescriptions. Ed gets labels clear as day. And, lily. Lily gets anything she wants. Ed knows he could just have us deliver his prescriptions. But whats the fun in that . Switch to cvs pharmacy. We are now about 2 1 2 hours away from President Trumps planned speech to sell the public on his argument for the wall and the shutdown, using the bul bully pulpit of an Oval Office Address for the first time. While that is a clear effort to turn the conversation towards the wall, there is a lot of attention on the vexes of his campaign. Paul manafort facing new pressure today. And now a key figure in the Mueller Probe once again making news. Jerome corsi. You have jerome corsi. Corsi having conversations with roger stone. This email from jerome corsi. Jerome corsi, roger stone associate. The corsi story. Author and political commentator jerome corsi. I realize i could go to jail for the rest of my life. Im 72 years old. I might die in jail, but im still making this decision. That was jerome corsi, a mueller witness, after publicly rejecting a plea deal he says he was offered by the mueller team regarding alleged lies to investigators. Hes back in the news with a break from his ally roger stone and a federal lawsuit against bob mueller himself. With all of that news, jerome corsi is back with me and he has a new book, silent no more. Thank you for coming back on the beat. Pleasure. Thank you, ari. You were in court suing bob mueller. Correct. What do you hope to achieve in court with this . Well, its a serious lawsuit. I mean, we have allegations of electronic illegal electronic surveillance. Of illegal leaking of grand jury information to the press. And allegations of, i believe criminal prosecutorial misconduct in how i was questioned. Wed like to get these issues a hearing before the court, and thats why we filed the lawsuit. So most people who get a lawyer threat or warning that they could be indicted by federal prosecutors dont respond the way you are. Does this mean that youre no longer concerned about getting indicted . I believe it was about 42 days ago that you got that letter. Have they indicated what theyre going to do . Ive heard nothing from the special prosecutors special counselors office. I have no idea what theyll do. I plan to be aggressive anyway. Im not sure im in the clear. Im not going to predict that. I do think that the statements from Julian Assange and wikileaks over this week that, in fact, i did not have contact with Julian Assange during the campaign or over the release of the stolen dnc emails helps my case because it proves i was not lying. You do claim, though, that you cooperated fully and accurately with muellers team. Yes. How many hours would you say you spoke with them . It was 40 hours. Six sessions. It was over two months. I went in, i offered all of my computers, my backup devices, my cell phone, my email accounts. I proffered all of that because i believe and still believe i did nothing wrong and i was willing to i wanted to tell the truth and i wanted to cooperate with them. Lets put that in context. You say 40 hours. Yes, 40 hours. Steve bannon, who is close to trump and involved in the general election campaign, came in at 20 hours. Michael cohen, 70. Don mcgahn, central to these attempted firings of mueller 40 hours. What were they asking you about . Well, i think the critical issue, and i highlight this in the book silent no more which details these 40 hours of interrogation and discussion. I believe the special counsels office believed i could establish a contact between roger stone and Julian Assange. It was going to go roger stone to jerome corsi of all people and then to Julian Assange. So they spent more time with you on a theory, you believe, that you would be key to collusion evidence linking roger stone to the Trump Campaign and russian end immediate years. Certainly for the last 20 hours, that was the primary focus. 20 hours just on that stuff . Just on that stuff. Do you think you gave them what they wanted on stone . No, because i dont have a contact with Julian Assange. Ive never spoken to him. Never communicated directly or indirectly with anybody at wikileaks or Julian Assange. I still maintain that i on my own calculated, figured out, deduced in july and august of 2016 that assange had podestas emails. I have no source that gave me that information. I have to tell you in your last interview on the beat. Right. When you said you came up with that by divine intervention. You referred to jeannie ri, a mueller prosecutor, calling it divine intervention. You said it came to you on the fly. I said through a process of deduction. Right. It was not something that somebody told you. Of all the things you said in the interview the last time, that got some of the most attention from people who thought that was ridiculous for you to claim that. I want to i want to revisit that since you bring it up. When you say that right. That came to you through deduction. Right. That doesnt really match the written evidence that is now in public. Im reading from your email. When you wrote to stone, word is friend in the embassy plans two more dumps. Word is sounds like a preference to the word on the street or things youre hearing. I grant that. Do you typically say word is before you share a thought that is your own deduction. Often, its very difficulty, just as youre having difficulty right now to believe i deduced this. I twill try to couch it something word is. If i had that directly from Julian Assange, i would not have hesitated to say Julian Assange has told me. I used word is to cushion, you can believe this or not, i came up with this of my own deduction. I believe Julian Assange this week has affirmed that. Why not say i think instead of word is . Over my entire life, going back to when i was a child. My father said jerry you come up with these deductions that are often right, youre going to have a tough time getting people to believe that. I think, mr. Corsi, thats true, that statement is true. The other interesting thing about your new lawsuit against mueller to many people watching this case, its putting out new information that reporters and people are interested in. In this hearing you just had, there is a reference to you and your stepson discussing a quote, scrub of a computer in an electronic message according to your statements. Why were you talking about a scrub . Were you trying to remove evidence relating to this case . It was not the fbi showed up at my stepsons home, 40 years old, and knocked on the door. They had a text message in which i had asked him to scrub a computer. It was an old computer that has been sitting on my desk. Memory was full. My wife wanted a computer for her business. I said why dont you take this old one and recycle it. Did it have messages from this period in 2016 . No, it did not. It was an old computer that had not been being used. Okay. In muellers draft indictment, which you shared with the world, interestingly, it says between january and march 2017, you deleted all your emails from before october 2016. Why . Because the machine i had a 17inch laptop that was dying and it needed new space. I also turned over the time machine application with the hard drive backup that had all emails, whether id erased them or not, and i knew they were all there. I was trying to keep an old computer running because i liked that 17inch. To do so, i had to erase emails. It was not a plan to erase evidence. Your position is youve provided that now to them . Yes, i gave them the entire backup machine. In fact, the prosecutors said during this inquisition that they were able to recover emails out of that time machine. You and roger stone, who many people have learned about as an adviser to trump and someone who has talked allot about assange and wikileaks and Hillary Clinton and podesta. You and he have communicated in public. Youve communicated in private, as weve now learned. We can put up the video of you together back in the day. Now something seems to have suddenly changed. He is now very critical of you, saying youre now working with mueller to sandbag him on a fabricated charge. Is that true . Its not true. Its up to rog tore believe what roger wants to believe. I dont want to fight with roger. Hes entitled to his enperceptions. Rogers entitled to how he perceived me. I dont have any intention to refute him. Doesnt bother that someone disparages me in public. It happens frequently. Were getting now to thats part of my job. Certainly. I say it not to disparage you its a fair question. I dont have a problem with it. He now says, after we just showed you guys together, you guys communicating seeming to be on the same team, fair to at one point in time. Yes. Now hes saying, youre starting to make Michael Cohen look like a standup guy. Then he goes on to call you a, weasel and a liar. Then he says, for your response, sir, roger stone alleges, how much didingery have to drink or how hard did the prosecutors have to squeeze him to make this nonsense up . Is any of that true and fair . And if not, he is trying to tamper with you as a witness . Im not going to get involved in a dispute or debate with roger stone. If he wants to say those things, s so be it. Its up to him to do it. If he wants to dismarriage para be it. I dont want to engage in that kind of discussion with roger. Understood. Its a very fair question. I appreciate it. As for the developments were hearing out of the Mueller Probe. Yes. Reports that they have now asked congress for roger stones testimony. You said on this show that some of that was misleading. Do you think he has a problem if they scour his congressional testimony . Well, again, i dont want to judge his case. I testified that i had created a cover story. I testified to that truthfully in my perception. If roger has a different perception, and he may, roger will have to express his view with that. My testimony stands and it hasnt changed since i had the first 20 hours with the special prosecutor the special counselors prosecutors. My last question for you sure. May be unansweredable, i admit. Okay. You are not the first mueller grand jury witness linked to roger stone to come to this table and take shots from him like the old muhammad ali rope adope without hitting back. Why do you think many of roger stones confidants come out and even when he hits them, they back off . Youll have to ask them. I can only tell you that my own sense of integrity has more to do with what i believe and how i profess my beliefs, including my faith, and it doesnt have to do with answering roger stone or anyone else. Understood. Mr. Jerome corsi, a 40hour grand jury witness, and now a plaintiff in a suit against bob mueller. Thank you for coming back on the beat. My pleasure. Would be happy to come back any time you ask. Thank you, sir. Coming up, we go to the shutdown. Nancy pelosi making one of her first moves as speaker and a priority that democrats campaigned on. That democrats campaigned on. Come here, babe. Ok. Nasty nightime heartburn . Try alkaseltzer pm gummies. The only fast, powerful heartburn relief, plus melatonin so you can fall asleep quickly. Oh, what a relief it is man dont. Go. Down. Oh, no aaaaballooned your car. Call meeeee burke a flyby ballooning. 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