Transcripts For MSNBCW The Beat With Ari Melber 20180824

Im going to talk to the man who was the lawyer for nixons Vice President , but we start with extraordinary new legal pressure on trump. Trumps chief Financial Officer Allen Weisselberg is talking to the feds with immunity. Hes the guy who prepared trumps tax returns, oversaw all of the Trump Organization Financial Transactions and infrastructure, including, apparently, the hush money. The feds referred to weisselberg has executive one in the Michael Cohen court documents, the one who arranged for, quote, payment for services rendered, the hush money to cover up trumps alleged affairs. Weisselberg is in the center of it, the guy put in charge after the election. He has relinquished leadership and management of the Trump Organization to his sons don and eric, and a longtime trump executive Allen Weisselberg. Don, eric and allen are committed to ensuring that the activities of the Trump Organization are beyond reproach. All right, so those activities of the Trump Organization may soon lead to criminal charges brought by the District Attorney here in manhattan. Weisselberg becomes the latest trump associate to get immunity or to cooperate with the feds. That includes david pecker, the publisher of the narc enquirer who allegedly worked with cohen to silence trumps women, the ap reports that there was a secret safe at the enquirer headquarters where they locked up stories that were damaging to President Trump. And another executive was known to have a recording device, believe it or not, in his office. So as a result of these immunity deals there could be even more evidence, including new tapes, in the hands of the feds tonight. And there are more people that trump once trusted who are now spilling secrets. Right now, trump is speaking at a gop fundraiser in ohio, you see live pictures there. If he says anything about his legal problems we will certainly bring that news to you right away. Joining me now is former federal prosecutor seth waxman. Shelby holiday from the wall street journal, and glenda blare, author of the trumps, glenda is an expert on the trumps, writing one of the definitive books on the family. Shelby, let me begin with you, and lets talk about weisselberg. Who is this man in the center of trump world, if you will . Hes an incredibly important figure and hats off to my colleagues at the journal for breaking this story that he has immunity. There are some questions about the extent of his immunity, what questions he has to answer, sharing information just about the hush money or information beyond those. Hes an incredibly important figure whos been with the Trump Organization for decades before trump even took over from his father. Hes been with trump through bankruptcies, through the reality tv saga, through all of his booms and busts. He knows where the proverbial bodies are buried. Weave hea weve heard that a lot today. Hes very in control of trumps finances now that trump is president. He could know important things for the grand jury and muellers investigation, for example, if he is actually cooperating with them and sharing information with them as well. I dont know if youve ever had a chance to interview weisselberg. I did. What did you glean from him as a personality, the way he functioned within that world . Was he meticulous, did he come across as the person who would be extremely loyal to President Trump . Why would you think he would seek immunity . I dont want to suggest we were bffs, but what i did my impressions and my recollections when i did interview him when i was doing my book, he came he worked for fred first, for donalds father, so he was a continuity from the earlier version of the Trump Organization under his father. And donald trump, we have to remember, the big influences on him, school of fred, that was one of them. So this was a guy who already, Allen Weisselberg, was somebody who had already been part of that world where, you know, the incredibly sharp business dealing, squeeze everything you can out of your hes a holdover from the fed era. Yeah. How much do you think he actually knew about the trump world . A lot. If you had to quantify it. Pretty much everything. And when i interviewed them the Trump Organization, one of the things i think people learned through the campaign. It had a remarkably small number of people working there. So whoever did work there knew a lot. How worried do you think trump is since you know the trumps and the trump world, donald trump jr. , eric trump, since they were the ones along with weisselberg after the election who were in charge of the Trump Organization, how worried are they all this evening . I would say pretty much 100 . This guy was right at the center, super loyal, eyes down, he was when i interviewed him, very a low profile but, you know, meticulous guy, totally focused on getting you know, doing the best for the Trump Organization in terms of taxes and everything else. But he knew it all, he knew it all. Seth, let me ask you a little bit about weisselberg and the fact that he has sought immunity, dont know if it was necessarily something they offered initially, or something he sought and the feds ultimately offered it to him. What does that tell you the fact that they were willing to grant him immunity, that he has immunity, what kind of he may have and what it is investigators can be looking for that he would know. He may have the keys to the castle. I mean, in white collar criminal prosecutions and investigations, its the books and records, its the documents, its the business transactions. And to land someone like the cfo, the chief Financial Officer, someone by all accounts, as your guests are saying, has been tight with the Trump Organization for decades who can walk prosecutors through those transactions, like one of your guests said, where the bodies are buried and breathe life into those documents, that is a huge get for the government, along with mr. Pecker and of course mr. Cohen potentially into the fold. Those kind of professional advisers that lend their expertise can really build a white collar criminal prosecution. Seth, do you know in a situation like this, and its hard to speculate about this case, but do you know, is it something that feds or investigators offer up early on, immunity because they know somebody legally is liable, or to try to win him over easily, or do you think that its something that you negotiate, you trade information back and forth to get to this point . Yeah, the latter. I mean, prosecutors hate to give out immunity. They want to get the testimony straight up. At worst, get someone to plead to something because they clearly have exposure if theyre pleading or seeking immunity. If you cant get any of that done and kind of as a last resort you immunize someone to get the information. You only do that in circumstances typically where the person has something really good and you really want it. From what were seeing that may be the case here. What a week it has been for some of these associates. Shelby, i wanted to ask you that, when it comes to associates that are guilty, and those that have been given immunity, the Trump Associates granted immunity on one side, the Trump Associates that are guilty and cooperating on the other. A lot of people in trumps inner circle working with the government now. What does that tell you . Well, i think there are three sort of pillars here, you have the foundation, you have the business, and you have the campaign. And the people cooperating come from all of those worlds, which is probably a very scary thing for the president because we know all three of those things are being investigated. I think the people who are cooperating in terms of what they know on the campaign, some of them know a great deal. I think rick gates was there throughout home stretch, he was close not just to manafort but also on the campaign and stayed to help through the inauguration. And then you have people like weisselberg and cohen, cohens been in trumps world and i know trump is trying to distance himself right now and say he just did small deals for me, he wasnt really a fixer, downplaying cohens role, but cohen was in a lot of meetings, he was setting up a lot of arrangements. I think that tape where cohen is talking about weisselberg is fascinating. Because you could probably argue that weisselberg didnt really know all the dirty details. When you hear that tape it suggests he actually, in fact, did. Let me pick up on that point, a really interesting question, weisselberg knowing about what the payments were necessarily for. The wall street journal reports that mr. Trump was known for being meticulous on payments made. Weisselberg would bring checks to sign for the company on a daily basis. Is it at all plausible that any of the cohen reimbursements that were made were, a, maybe not necessarily aware to weisselberg what they were for, in fact, if they were just told these are reimbursements, he would just process them as such, or could it be possible the other way around, trump did not necessarily know, and weisselberg knew. Trump was a real micromanager, he signed every check, they all went in front of him. Sometimes he wouldnt pay them as the journal reported. Sometimes hed put off payment, squeeze this guy a little bit more, dont pay the full amount. He was a guy who knew what he was doing. So the idea that he ever signed a check and didnt know what it was for, i think thats a nonstarter. For trump. For trump. And weisselberg . And weisselberg, that guy was on top of it. He was central. The staff, there was hardly anybody there. That was one of the startling things to me when i interviewed donald at his office. There were not very many people working there, and there never were very many people working there. Well put this back up on the screen when we show these five people, two granted immunity, david pecker as well as weisselberg, and on the other side, those cooperating with the government that have pleaded guilty, Michael Flynn, papadopoulos and rick gates. From trump world, are you at all surprised that loyalty has not turned out to be as strong a force in the trump orbit, that these men are all cooperating or to some extent are willing to offer information on their bus who has always put a premium on loyalty . Well, end of day. Theyve staved it off as long as they can. One of the telling things, i think, is that weisselberg, so far, trump has not tried to diss him. Hes tried to say didnt matter, manafort was just there for a few days, we have not heard that Allen Weisselberg wasnt the main guy in charge of finances for decades. He has not said that. And hes also not he hasnt come out with some kind of kind of dissing nickname for him. Hes distanced himself. Hes distanced himself from Michael Cohen, saying he did small deals. Distanced himself from Paul Manafort saying he only worked on the campaign a little bit. Why hasnt he done that with Allen Weisselberg, and why do you think he has immunity . I theres a lot of talk, a lot of comparison of donald trump to some kind of a mob boss, that kind of a model. But is Allen Weisselberg, is he a made man . Maybe thats the question. Were going to talk a little bit. We are definitely going to talk about that kind of culture that exists in the trump world later on in the show. Seth, really quickly, would state charges take away a Michael Cohen pardon as a potential tool for trump . We know hes trying to kind of perhaps signal that to Paul Manafort with some of the comments and language and the tweets, saying hes a brave man and all that, if there are state charges, would that neutralize a president ial pardon . Yeah, it sure would. Mr. Trump, the president , has the power to pardon in the federal system, but not in the state system. The governor of new york could pardon someone, theres no indication that could happen. The da bringing charges against Michael Cohen or anybody else, the president will not be able to pardon those. What do you think right now, seth, in terms of the investigators, what is the big picture here theyre trying to put together when it comes to President Trump through the people like Michael Cohen, david pecker, and weisselberg, Allen Weisselberg, whats the big picture theyre trying to assemble . Two stages, the first is don jr. And kushner, and the second is the president himself, getting these close associates, criminal context, and when i was a prosecutor, used to call top lieutenants, either in the financial area or people like Michael Cohen getting them into the fold brings you that much closer to the president. If its not the president right away, maybe its Jared Kushner or don jr. If you get to one of those two, then maybe youre right on the doorstep to the presidency. Mr. Mueller is working this up as a classic federal investigation. You know, hes checking all the boxes, dotting all the is and ts, looks like hes moving closer and closer. To shelbys point, the tray angle of the Trump Organization, Trump Foundation and the campaign. Seth, stay with me longer. Shelby holliday, gwenda blare, thank you for your time. Also, new reporting on the obama Conspiracy Theory, promoted at the highest levels of the trump administration. Im going to talk to the reporter who broke that story. Plus, new focus on trumps use of mob language to talk about the russia probe. And my interview with a key figure from the watergate era, the lawyer for nixons Vice President , calling on President Trump to resign. Im Ayman Mohyeldin for ari melber, youre watching the beat on msnbc. Man 1 this is my body of proof. Woman 1 proof of less joint pain. Woman 2 . And clearer skin. Woman 3 this is my body of proof. Man 2 proof that i can fight psoriatic arthritis. Woman 4 . With humira. Woman 5 humira targets and blocks a specific source of inflammation that contributes to both joint and skin symptoms. 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Today President Trump doubling down on his attacks against his own attorney general demanding Jeff Sessions investigate democrats in what he calls bob muellers conflicts, tweeting look into all the corruption on the other side. These new tensions have prompted some republican senators to warn trump against firing sessions. I think it would be a mistake. I dont think it would be good for the country. The president can fire him. I sincerely hope he doesnt. I dont think Jeff Sessions should be fired. He understands, hed be in great trepidation if he were to fire sessions. It would be a very, very, very bad idea to fire the attorney general. People worry about the dominos if Jeff Sessions goes, whos next, is it Rod Rosenstein . One key republican senator is back pedaling, compare where Lindsey Graham stood on Jeff Sessions a year ago, watch this. The effort to margin allize, if Jeff Sessions is fired, there will be holy hell to pay. I think there will come a time sooner rather than later where it will be time to have a new face and a fresh voice at the department of justice. Clearly, attorney general sessions doesnt have the confidence of the president. After the election i think there will be some serious discussions about a new attorney general. The bigger story here is trumps attack on the rule of law in this country, the Washington Post reporting that National Security and Law Enforcement Officials Say that trump is doing lasting damage by using his office to target those he sees as his political enemies. The entire thing has been a witch hunt. The rigged witch hunt. Its a total witch hunt. Its a totally rigged deal, they should be looking at the other side. They should be looking at all these fbi guys who got fired and demoted. This is the most conflicted group of people ive ever seen. All these investigators, theyre democrats. Everybody sees whats going on in the Justice Department. I always put justice now with quotes. Joining me now is elliott williams, a doj official under president obama, and former congresswoman donna edwards. Elliott, let me begin with you, and talk about the president today, leaning on Jeff Sessions to investigate obama, to investigate mueller, a lot of people are watching this and saying the president is politicizing the Justice Department, going after political enemies. As we were just saying it is going to have a lasting damage lasting impact, negative impact on the rule of law in this country. No question about that. And frankly, you know, you said a lot of people are watching. You know whos watching . The 113,000 career employees of the Justice Department who need to go to work every day feeling that the entire executive branch has their back. Look, the idea of disputes within the federal government or the executive branch are not new, you know, within the Justice Department historically the Southern District of new york always fights with the Justice Department over territory issues and the fbi and the white house. Thats how governments work. But when the feud between the president of the United States and the attorney general becomes personal, simply for the attorney general, frankly, doing his job, what youre doing is undermining faith and simply the execution of legal duties or lawyers doing their jobs. It has to have an impact on the way the people feel doing their work. It has to have an impact on the way the public trusts the Justice Department and so on. So absolutely this will have a long standing impact on the rule of law. Now, the rule of law indoors, its bigger than any one of us, bigger than any one president , thank god and we will survive this. However, certainly everything the Washington Post said in that piece is accurate. Donna, do you believe that trump is, in fact, getting closer to firing Jeff Sessions, or do you think hes been politically persuaded to at least wait till after the midterms . Is this a matter of life and death for the president depending on what happens come the midterms . Well, it really doesnt matter whether the president , whether the president waits. And the reason is because he is preparing to fire Jeff Sessions and has launched these attacks against Jeff Sessions, not about the job that hes doing, but for the fact that Jeff Sessions did not recuse himself and the president expected Jeff Sessions as attorney general to act as his lawyer. And so i think its really important for us not to overlook that because all of these, even more recent attacks against the attorney general, mean to me that the president is actually setting himself up, whether he does it now or he does it later, to be further looked at for getting in the way of justice because hes attacking Jeff Sessions, not because of the job that Jeff Sessions is doing, but because Jeff Sessions failed to recuse himself in the mueller investigation. And this is where i think Senate Republicans need to get it right. And you could hear some of that because they were basically sending a warning in some ways to the president , careful what you wish for. Because the way that you do it it will inevitably have a political impact. You know, along those lines, though, the when the senator the senate pardon me. The Senate Republicans certainly have not demonstrated any sort of willingness to step in. You know, the congressmans right that they need to step up and really take a stand here. But, you know, Lindsey Graham who for years had been a supporter and a friend and an ally and a loyal colleague of Jeff Sessions turning around today, you know, were seeing a lot of this from the Senate Republicans. Its quite disappointing, frankly, seeing as how the senate is supposed to be the check on the executive branch. Congresswoman, if, in fact, the president goes ahead and fires Jeff Sessions, the message hes sending for the incoming, the next potential attorney general is going to be what, according to you, if, in fact, Jeff Sessions is being fired, not for what hes doing, which is according to Jeff Sessions implementing the president s agenda, but for what hes not doing, which is hes not taking control of the russia investigation, hes not trying to block bob mueller in any capacity, the fact that he recused himself and took himself out of that equation from defending or shielding the president. This is an alarming and dangerous territory if, in fact, were going into a new place where the next attorney general is expected to do that for the president. Well, i mean, i think therein lies the problem because any incoming attorney general actually in the confirmation process will first have to answer dozens if not hundreds of questions about the conversations that theyve had with the president , whether the president asked him to take a different posture with respect to the mueller investigation. And i dont think that Senate Republicans are going to be able to have a leg to stand on answering those questions. It remains for me to be seen whether, in fact, a new attorney general can even get through a confirmation process. Elliott, you referenced the department of justice and morale there. I wanted to get your thought, do you speak to colleagues, former colleagues, get a sense of how theyre feeling day in, day out being the target of this president and the Justice Department in quotes as he likes to say . Its horrible and its withering. Again, it is a bigger and stronger institution than donald trump will ever dream to be. It will last, you know, frankly, outlive his presidency. But it certainly has an effect on their morale. The amazing thing, look when your sole criterion for picking a member of your cabinet is his loyalty to your campaign youre going to be disappointed when he does his job. Jeff sessions has actually been doing that, and carrying out the functions of an attorney general as a responsible and reasonable one should. And its quite disappointing and disheartening to attorneys, to people who believe the rule of law, to people who believe in the Justice Department. Loretta lynch, my former boss, its the only Government Entity named after an ideal, justice. And so the idea that, you know, its now being asked to go after the enemies of the president or political opponents is certainly bad for the rule of law and morale of every individual there. Lets be really clear because we dont want to we dont want to ensure that we are justifying the job that Jeff Sessions has been doing. No question. Because, you know, from separation of children and all of the, you know, range of things, thats not true. But he did the first good thing, which was to recuse himself from the mueller investigation. No question there. Im with you on that. Guys, were going to have to leave it at that. See how all this plays out. Elliott williams, donna edwards, thank you both very much. Telling President Trump to resign, but first, rats loyalty flipping, its kind of mob boss language coming from the white house weve never heard before. Back in 30 seconds. Golden opportunity sales event. Get up to 2,500 customer cash on select 2018 nx 300 models. Experience amazing at your lexus dealer. But prevagen helps your brain with an ingredient originally discovered. In jellyfish. In clinical trials, prevagen has been shown to improve shortterm memory. Prevagen. Healthier brain. Better life. Now to donald trump potentially undermining his own claims of innocence by using language that is more commonly associated with crime bosses and mob movies. Today nbc confirming another top trump figure struck a deal with the feds. The Trump Organizations cfo getting immunity in the cohen probe. Its part of a pattern of Trump Associates spilling the beans. This just a day after trump blasted what he calls flippers. Theres this whole thing about flipping, they call it. I know all about flipping, for 30, 40 years ive been watching flippers. It almost ought to be outlawed. Its not fair. Ive had many friends involved in this stuff. Its called flipping and it almost ought to be illegal. In recent days trump has been saying that the white House Counsel isnt a rat. Hes been praising Paul Manafort because he, quote, refused to break. And blasting Jeff Sessions for failing to match trumps, quote, loyalty. Its a mindset not often found in the white house. But in films like this. Dont ever take sides with anyone, against the family, again. Two greatest things in life, never rat on your friends, and always keep your mouth shut. All our people are businessmen. Loyalty is based on that. One thing i learned from pop was to try to think as people around you think. All right, joining me now is nbc news analyst howard fineman, and seth waxman who spent eight years prosecuting organized crime figures like some of those we saw portrayed on tv. Seth, let me begin with you, youve been in this position before. Is the way trump acting a sign that he feels backed into a corner, the language, the posturing, is it defensive in nature . Of course it is. It is exactly that. You know, when i was a federal prosecutor, i used to sit on wiretaps for weeks or months. This is the kind of language that hardened criminals would use. Kingpins and drug dealers. Whos flipping . Who do we want to go after . Whos on our side . I mean, listening to this is like listening to tony soprano. This is shocking to me, this kind of language. I dont want to go too far, washington, lincoln, jefferson might be rolling over in their grave to think a president of the United States is criticizing people who own responsibility, plead guilty and decide to change their life, but yet, you know, standing by the person who isnt going to be a rat. Its really, really upsetting. Howard, its one thing for the president to use this language among his own inner circle and private, but hes using this language open in public to demean, distance himself from in interviews and in an official capacity. What are your thoughts about the way donald trump is talking like a mob boss . Well, he wants to do it publicly. This is the image he wants to project. He wants to be known as the mob boss in the white house. Thats his whole the whole manner of his upbringing, everything he was steeped in, new york, and the construction business, and in dealing with people there, the way hes raised money, including from people who were reputed to be in the russian mob, et cetera. He was coming into his own in new york and beginning in the business right around the time the godfather movies were in theaters in 72 and 74. Its how he grew up in new york. Its what he thinks power is supposed to look like. Hes not going to hide it at all. Hes going to advertise it. He also thinks that public threats are the way to go. In a way hes like a bad mob boss because the mob bosses didnt do it in public. Hes playing that role on television and playing it in the white house and playing it the way he thinks power is spoetupp to look. Thats donald trump. Do you think it undermines any chance hes got in the long one . Well, one would think so. Hes played its interesting, because the longer he goes and the more he gets backed into a corner legally the more hes behaving that way. He has some kind of faith that that sells to the people who care about him most. It may. But in the process hes going to lose the perimeter of whatever support he has, those suburban voters, the people who believe in the idea of decency in the rule of law ultimately are going to recoil. Maybe not now, but as soon as the report comes out, and as soon as other facts are known. And i think somewhere in his mind he has that sense. And hes staring hes preparing himself for that day. Seth, you brought up the issue that youve sat in on many wiretaps over your career. Listen to the type of people that trump sounds himself with, play you this Michael Cohen talking to a reporter in 2015. I know exactly who you are and i know exactly what you do and i know exactly the story you plan on writing. Im warning you, tread very [ bleep [ bleep ] lightly. What im going to do to you is disgusting. Do you understand . What do you make of that, the threatening tone, one of the president s lawyers, a fixer, so to speak . Thats the true Michael Cohen, i understand lanny davis now is coming out and saying mr. Cohen has found religion, or is back to his family, putting country first. Look, i learned one thing as a federal prosecutor. People that are in the cross hairs of federal Law Enforcement care about one thing and one thing only. It is themselves. So i dont believe for a minute that he has now found his country. Hes found himself in a corner and hes doing everything that he can to help himself. That is the true Michael Cohen when he was still a member of the conspiracy, assuming it existed. Howard fineman, seth waxman, gentlemen, great to have both of you with us. Ahead, a Conspiracy Theory in the Trump White House, accusing the Obama Administration of an attack, speak to the reporter who broke that story. 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Martin london, also the author of the book the client decides and harvard Professor Leah rigger. Martin, let me come to you first, get your take on why should President Trump resign . Look, this hes going downhill. This is just the beginning. Hes lost several of his Close Friends and associates, flynn, gates, cohen, papadopoulos. Now hes just lost pecker. Seth waxman got it right, when that doorbell rings and the guy says im from the fbi, let me tell you, its every man for himself. So that suggests to me that the longer he waits, the worse its going to get. I think theyre going to go after the Trump Corporation now. I think weisselberg has got immunity. You know, theres an interesting story there. The complaint says the information says that they gave the phony invoice to weisselberg who gave it to executive number two. We dont know who executive number two is, but im willing to bet a nickel the last name of that executive was trump. Those are all state crimes, by the way. Let me ask you this, martin, since you brought up this interesting point when the doorbell rings and its the fbi at the door, its every man for himself, what do you think the trump kids, trump children, donald trump, eric trump, ivanka trump, what will happen with them . Look, that june meeting in trump tower is dynamite, despite Rudy Giuliani who i referred to this morning as rudy clown saying well, they didnt know they were russians. Of course they knew they were russians. They had the email that said the russian government wants to help find evidence to help your father win the election. He goes and he says i love it, its great, i think there was a crime there already. So i think then he covers up the crime. He cooks up with his father a false statement that it was about adoption. It wasnt about adoption at all. I think hes in the soup. And i think i know 1 or 10 of whats going on. So i think that the longer this goes on, the greater the exposure is going to be. The federal government is very good at this. Leah, speaking of exposure, do you envision President Trump, can you see President Trump from his personality and psychology of person who would resign the office of president if he is, in fact, facing the fbi . Absolutely not. I think that, you know, martin makes a wonderful point that, particularly drawing on this history, this really important history, you know, first things first, game recognizes game. So he clearly is drawing on this really important historical moment, almost 40 years to the day where, you know, spiro agnew recognized this was the necessary thing to do. But what weve seen from donald trump historically, what were seeing now is that as the walls are coming in, as the legs are coming out from under the organization, that his tendency is to double down and to fight back even when he is in the wrong, even when faced with overwhelming odds, even faced with evidence that a crime has occurred, that corruption has occurred. And i think thats especially true when, if we see that his children may be involved, and may be, you know, next on the chopping block. Martin, did you want to add something . Look, when we represented spiro agnew, we represented spiro agnew, the guy exposed but the Vice President , we didnt have to worry about children, sons, a pair of sons, a soninlaw who also had exposure. The longer this thing goes on, the greater that exposure is going to be. And if hes going to cut a deal, the farther down the line he goes, the greater is the pile of evidence the government gets, the tougher that deal is going to be. I happen to agree that i dont think he would do it because i dont think hes got this takes a lot of contemplation. It takes a lot of balancing. It takes a lot of consideration. I dont think hes capable of that. So to that point yeah. Sorry, to cut you off, martin, i wanted to ask quickly, its great to have two brilliant legal minds here, the issue of a president being indicted and whether or not he can face the trial being president. What do you think, what does the legal matter tell us in terms of a sitting president being indicted or at least facing trial . I think there are a couple of different ways to speak it. Martin is far more equipped to speak to the specifics. But one thing that ill say is that his children can face charges in a number of different ways. We also dont know what happens. I mean, again, we give the context, wed actually have to see, and there are a couple different ways of interpreting it, once he steps out of office and hes no longer a sitting president , that also incorporates that also means theres definitely different ways of looking at it and that he could still be brought up on charges, to martins point, as this laundry list keeps coming and coming and more and more and more comes out. Martin, whats your legal take on that . Well, you know, an interesting story. There had never been even any legal writing on the subject until the agnew case when the Justice Department was investigating the Vice President , we wrote a brief and we said you have to stop the investigation because the Vice President is immune from prosecution while hes sitting in office. And we cited, you know, the articles in article i and article ii, the impeachment articles. And the elliott richardson, the attorney general, turned us over to mr. Bjork, the solicitor general, who wrote a brief. And he came back in his brief and said, well, you know, youre right, there is a strong argument that article i officers should not be indicted while in office. But i make a distinction. My client, president nixon, he cant be indicted. The president cant be indicted. But your client, the Vice President , can be indicted. And bjorks memo was the first of two doj memos that concluded that a sitting president cannot be indicted. Well, it certainly may be something that is going to be revisited in the coming months or possibly even in the coming years. Martin london, certainly appreciate your time. Thanks very much. Leah wright rigor as well. The new york reporter breaking this story next. So to breathe better, i go with anoro. Go your own way copd tries to say, go this way. I say, ill go my own way, with anoro. 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Ask your gastroenterologist about humira. With humira, remission is possible. Comey, lies and leaks. Hes a liar and hes a leaker. I mean, why is this guy being looked at . Its the most incredible thing people have ever seen, whats going on, but were going to straighten it out. Were going to straighten it out. You just heard President Trump at a fundraiser in iowa we get new reporting about a Conspiracy Theory that circulated in President Trumps white house accusing obama officials of attempting to undermine trumps foreign policy. The new yorker obtained a 2008 memo. The memo claims that the obama officials had built an elaborate network called the echo chamber, by organized attacks in the press by eight of trumps top advisors. The memo goes on to say the group was led by former deputy National Security advisor ben rhodes, and call lcollin call. This Conspiracy Theory type of mindset, that sees normal opposition discourse as something much more nefarious, i think it connects directly to what we saw with john brennan, that people leaving government speaking their mind are not welcome in this country, theyre defined as an enemy of the governme government. Adam, great to have you with us this evening, thank you for joining us. Tell me a little bit as much as you can, how did you come about to learn about this memo and its existence . Well, you know, as often happens here in this town, it was a leak, a person that had a copy of the memo sent it to me and ronan and i spent several weeks trying to determine whether it was in any way connected to a very similar operation that we were reporting on connected to an israeli private Intelligence Firm called black cube that was also singling out both ben rhodes and collin call, as being kind of the organizers of opposition to trump. How many staffers did you get a sense from your reporting were able to see the memo . I mean how widely circulated would you say it was within the Trump White House . Yeah. I dont know if the president ever saw it. You know, i know that it was circulated, you know, with particularly within the nsc and within Steve Bannons former unit that was part of the white house. So it was passed in that group. Whats important to keep in mind here, is that as, you know, the transition was taking place, and as, you know, steve bannon and others were getting into position in the white house, there were a series of very, you know, certainly from their perspecti perspective, damaging leaks that were coming, at an incredibly fast pace, in that period of 2017. At the time, both ben rhodes and collin were very aggressive on twitter and in other places, in criticizing trump. And his policies. So, you know, i think one can understand if one puts ourselves in their shoes, why they might be interested in trying to figure out whats happening to them. And trying to determine whose organized against us. Obviously they took it to a degree that went beyond, i think, what actually existed. And especially their use of go ahead. To that point, adam, it a intere really interesting point you brought up. We know that President Trump claims that Obama Wiretapped trump tower, and he says that obama was spying on his campaign. Why do you think he has this obsession of obama and obama holdovers work against him or spy against him . When you look at what was happening as he was preparing to take the oath of office. You had information that emerged about how the Intelligence Community believed that russia had intervened in the election to help him win, which from his perspective, seemed to dent what he saw as this accomplishment, this historic accomplishment that he saw. And then when you go a little bit further in time, you realize suddenly these leaks start. So you can imagine that they felt encircled during that period. Its an absolutely fascinating and riveting piece of journalism. I appreciate your time and reporting, thank you very much. Thank you. Lets fly, lets fly away just say the words and well beat the birds down to acapulco bay its perfect for a flying honeymoon they say come fly with me lets fly, lets fly away come fly with me lets fly, lets fly away oh oh ozempic® vo people with type 2 diabetes are excited about the potential of onceweekly ozempic®. In a study with ozempic®, a majority of adults lowered their blood sugar and reached an a1c of less than seven and maintained it. Oh under seven . vo and you may lose weight. In the same oneyear study, adults lost on average up to 12 pounds. 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