Be doing as they brace for what could be a grilling by bob mueller himself and another extraordinary moment today that i have something to say about later, the cameras rolling for that supposedly bipartisan policy planning meeting at the white house about immigration. I will tell you what i think it was all really about. All of that ahead in our show, but we begin with this important breaking news, steve bannon out at breitbart. This is without a doubt tonight the biggest fallout yet from Michael Wolffs explosive book about the trump presidency. Steve bannon out at Breitbart News and the New York Times reporting this was not his choice. Bannon forced out by the Mercer Family and this was after bannon not only burned in a bridge with trump, but scorched it by attacking him and his family members in this new book weve all been talking about. He alleged that trump jr. Was acting treasonous and unpatri unpatriotic. And he also allegedly said that ivanka trump was, quote, dumb as a brick. The mighty fall for many year, this one i would report for you is about money. That is how bannon could be forced out at all from a site so associated with him in an era where many people claim maybe nothing matters or maybe anyone can get away with anything. And steve bannon himself had been conjuring a mythology that he was powerful because he didnt play by anyones rules. Not the medias, not the rnc, not even the president. But it didnt work. The news tonight is that you actually see steve bannon is just like everyone else. He has a boss, he needs a paycheck and for all of his tough talk, his great undoing came not from his enemies or the democrats or the media, his undoing came from Steve Bannons own brash mouth. Here are the facts. The mercers had been investing about 10 million in breitbart which gave them about half of the companys control way back from 2501 2011. And it was bannon who went back to breitbart and started running an editorial and made waves with b. This was the key to his future, he said i built a machine at breitbart and now im about to go back knowing what i know and were about to rev that machine up, steve bannon said, and rev it up we will do. Well, his hands arent on the weapon tonight. Steve bannons hands are on a pink slip. And trump had famously recently said bannon lost his mind after being fired. Tonight lets be clear, steve bannon lost his largest altright platform for power. And it was never his to begin with. Steve bannon rose to power by melding what he called grass roots populist outrage with funding from the conservative elite. That may have been a messy alliance, but it always worked up until tonight because of the money. A former banker himself steve bannon did have a kind of special independence from the gop structure because he had independent money. But he also forgot a Cardinal Rule of power. What puts you on top can also bring you down. As sean connor explained, the same sword they night you with, they will good night you with. And as jimmy cliff observed, the harder they come, the harder they fall, one and all. A special panel on this developing political news, christina greer, katty kay, ej dionne, and eric deegans, krit tim a critic and analyst. And i begin to go around the horn with you, ej, this was not part of the plan. This is a result of reporting of a book of information in the public square. Steve bannon ousted from the site that he is so associated with. What does it mean to you . Well, just add to your list of sayings, he who has the gold makes the rules. That is the golden rule of politics. And i think what you saw here is the idea as you suggested that populism could meld with low tax conservativism was always troubling from the very beginning. Jay mayer of the new yorker reported that the mercers had already started to break with bannon when bannon basically said he didnt like this trump tax cut because it tilted too much toward the rich. And so i think it will be very interesting to see does this push regular conservatives even closer to donald trump and donald trump everyone closer to regular conservatives. That is certainly the first effect of this book. One other quick point if i could, the reporting of Michael Wolffs book was done mostly as far as i can tell back when bannon was riding high. He was kind of hoping to take down the Kushner Ivanka alliance and it just blew up on him. And christina, give us the wider context. This is a website that has become much more than just one of many websites. It is a place where steve bannon drove hard line policy message and many people feel attacks on american citizens. Yeah, having been targeted by bright part several times, i know this is a website that traffics in racist really aggressive horrible reporting, the people who write into breitbart are some of the underbelly of american society. This is a website that has a whole section called black crime. This traffics in horrible antisemitic notions, constantly, and oftentimes false truths. They will put up a quote from someone indicating that they are either jewish or a picture of a black woman and then they just let the Comment Section go wild. So for someone like steve bannon who is moving away who has been ousted from this type of organization, says a lot about the mercers, it says a lot about the republican tax cuts, because these are people who are willing to sort of go even deeper into the deer of american politics because it will make them more money. So what were seeing now is just Republican Party in washington, d. C. Full did, on looting the American Government and really ignoring all the principles that actually will sustain us in a social safety net in a collective action sort of way. Eric. What is interesting to me about this is that the conservative media structure that has grown up around breitbart, you would think with donald trump as president would be flour iplow flowering, that would be excerpts even more control over the discussion. And instead oflow flowering, th would be excerpts even more control over the discussion. And instead ofow flowering, thad be excerpts even more control over the discussion. And instead ofw flowering, that be excerpts even more control over the discussion. And instead of flowering, that be excerpts even more control over the discussion. And instead offlowering, that te excerpts even more control over the discussion. And instead of focusing on supporting the president , there is a conflict and competition between people at these various news organizations. And it is hampering their ability to get their message out. Breitbart were hearing is not going to or bannon were hearing is not going to host the show that he had on sirius xm either because that was through Breitbart News. They will be consumed with dealing with the fallout from getting rid of bannon instead of focusing on how theyre covering the news or supporting the president s agenda as they have done in the past. And you just said supporting the president s agenda. Here again is the way steve bannon was positioning it just a few months ago saying that he was going to war for trump when he left the white house. If there is any confusion, let me clear it up, im leaving the white house and going to war on behalf of trump. And katty kay, they can throw in all the words they want, it was obvious at the time that there was tension, thats why he was leaving the white house. Its obvious that the pourer is not simply in being the third or fourth press release regurnlg statings message, but being a pressure cooker, positioning himself, whatever you want to call it to the right or to the ground or to the wild other corner of where the Republican Party would either go or be forced to go. Yeah, and there are still supporters of President Trump and of President Trump running for president again next time around who will say that bannon had his ear to the ground of the base that they need. And they are still in favor of that fire that he whipped up so kind of unexpectedly around the time of the election that got trump the victory in 2016. But you said that his inflated sense of self importance, that bubble was burst today. I wonder whether it was burst on that cold night in december in alabama when roy moore didnt manage to succeed, was that actually the beginning of the end of steve bannon because he didnt manage to pull it off. There is one thing to have say you have the ear of the base and that you can run all of these counter establishment candidates, but if you cant get them elected, what use are you. And that tice in with what ej is saying that actually the bust up had the freeze between the mercers and bannon had already begun a while ago. I agree, but i think we also need to remember any republican who cast their lot with donald trump also needs to remember that he is not loyal to anyone but himself. And the sad thing is his children might soon find that out one day as well. But he was with steve bannon and now you see how he speaks about him, sloppy steve. There are so many people every Single Person who was attached their political career to donald trump, when their time has come, he has thrown them by the wayside and stepped over his body to promote himself. And that is a lesson that really doubles back to the deeper point youre making about if someone is watching at home and going being on, this loud brash guy who left the white house, who cares, the point is as you were arguing earlieron, brash guy who left the white house, who cares, the point is as you were arguing earlier who is in charge and is there is a method within trumpism or the Republican Party to give voice to the people that they aspire to represent, the coalminer, middle class, the working americans around the country. We hear a lot about them. Or at the end of the day is tonight important obviously i think so,s im curious what you think, is tonight important because were seeing the pressures put on by a well reported book about who is really in charge and it turns out there is a handful of billionaires in charge and that is the end of it . Well, i think we already started to see that with the tax bill. There was very little in this tax bill to benefit the voters of the mountains in West Virginia or kentucky or the people in the old mill times in michigan or pennsylvania. And youve already started to see trump take a hit in the polls among white voters without college education. So even among white evangelical christians. So i think there has been a perception out there even before bannons fall and to be honest i dont know if any of us can be sure that all those voters really knew who steve bannon was. The polling was in several red states, his name i. D. Was surging up over 40 . Which again for a staffer it is pretty big, ill grant you that. But just to underscore something katty said, when roy moore lost, it sure looked like donald trump held that against steve bannon. It was basically bannon told me this guy could win so i went all in for him and i got embarrassed a second time in alabama. So i think that really didnt help his cause either. But we are seeing the collapse of this through toe kratic populism. You cant really bring those two together. Sometimes we get breaking news in pieces of paper and sometimes anonymous quotes of gobbledegook. This one says bannon is a true believer in the populist national agenda. Potus is transactional. When he needs something badly, they will have a relationship. Final thought, katty kay. Yes, so that will be the question. Where does the conservative base that bannon thought he represents now throw in its lot. Do they close it into donald trump or keep their attachment to steve bannon. It is interesting that on the same day steven is fired, the president is talking about the prospects of immigration reform. One thing the workers around the country really dont warrant toe happen. And you are already getting more high profile supporters saying hold on, you will lose a lot of support if you go ahead with anything that you floated during that meeting in terms of real immigration reform. Completely right. I agree with that. Its fascinating and it matters for all the reasons that are broader and bigger than steve bannon. Its been a fascinating conversation. Thank you vefr. And coming up, we turn to the other big story, this key testimony out tonight from the russia probe, insights in to the trump dossier. And what are the pros and cons of trump if he does do his testimony under oath . And well meal back tpeel back tsz on t the political layers. And laterer want to address the deepest question raised by the Michael Wolff book, it is mr. Trump and about cons. Lly, we ofw rates on home loans. But if thats not enough, we offer our price match guarantee too. And if thats not enough. We should move. Our home team will help you every step of the way. Still not enough . Its smaller than id like. Well help you finance your dream home. Its perfect. Oh, was this built on an ancient Burial Ground . Okay. Then well have her cleanse your house of evil spirits. 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Respiratory tract infection and headache. Tell your doctor about all the medicines you take. And if youre pregnant or planning to be. Ask your dermatologist about otezla today. Otezla. Show more of you. Breaking news tonight, key transcripts about the trump dossier are now out for the first time. The head of the firm behind the dossier has testified and we now know what he is telling congress, that Christopher Steele that british spy who was hired to look into trumps links to russia became, quote, concerned that what he was learning about trump represented a National Security threat. This is brand new. Were also learning from this information from congress that he had the view that trump might have been, quote, blackmailed or had been xroe compromised. A lot more to it, lets get ride to senator sheldon whitehouse. There is a fight over why some republicans didnt want this testimony made public. And then there is what you think is important now that it is transparently out in the light of day. What do people need to know about this . Well, the way that the Judiciary Committee ought to be working, we ought to be working in a bipartisan fashion to do what is right within our wheelhouse which is to protect the department of justice from obstruction and interference. And to draft legislation to protect our 2018 elections which just a few days ago pompeo warned us would be the continued subject of russian meddling. Thats what we should be doing. The chairman has decided that we should basically break into two teams, a republican Judiciary Committee and a democratic Judiciary Committee and go our separate ways. Given that decision, i think senator fine tine maeinstein ma choice that she could to release the Glenn Simpson transcripts today. But certainly not the best of all worlds. Youre referring to senator grassley . Grassley is the chairman, fine stein relea feinstein released. Grassley said the release is totally con founds and undermines the integrity of the committees work. I dont think it does that because the person had written an edit toorial laying out what said in public ahead of this and called for the release of the transcripts. So its not as if somebody came in under one set of expectations that it would be a private confidential interview and had their expectations disrupted or disturbed by unbeknownst to them and without their wishing it having their krans scritranscri suddenly in the public domain. The person whose testimony was at the heart of this krans scri transcript was the person who most wanted it released. And then back to the first question, what are you learning and what should we be learning from this testimony . Well, i think the key piece of it is that this latest where that effort to cause a distraction from the tasks before us really doesnt stand up, that in reality, the steele dossier which i think drives a lot of republicans crazy was actually perfectly legitimate intelligence product by an experienced former senior person in the mi6 russia desk who has had his work regularly taken seriously and valued by Law Enforcement and Intelligence Services in the united states. And that the timing is very different than has been suggested, that the steeles doier wdossier was not prokt product of a Democratic Political effort, it was actually first commissioned by a conservative newspaper. And that the steele dossier wasnt what triggered the fbi investigation. That began when the british and then as director clapper told us european allies and then the australians based on their contact from papadopoulous all came to american agencies and said hey, you guys, you really got to be worried about what russia is up to in your elections. We have some really serious intel we need to share with you. And those were the driving factors behind the fbi beginning to look into this. Which is important and also goes to the testimony which is the view that if you find stuff that is bad enough, you actually have some obligation to report it as well. Senator white houshouse, thank for your time. I want to turn to Nick Ackerman and also our defense attorney. When you look at both this fight and the wider debates of what donald trump will testify, he says the dossier is basically fake or political. Does that work as well if the issues in the dossier will be part of how he is actually interviewed in a criminal probe setting . Absolutely could. Let me just first say that this dossier, the republicans are way more focused on than mueller. Okay . Mueller is five steps ahead of us, he is sherlock holmes, he knows everything that is in that transcript, he already knows. They are bringing way more attention to it. Now, this whole political gamesmanship between the republicans and democrats, it is only confusing the American People about how this is actually working. Mueller is trying to investigate in a most fairway and this whole democrats doing this, republicans doing that, this reaction for that reaction, it is only confusing the American People. How about trump as a potential client . Newt gingrich was saying maybe he should try to avoid testifying at all. Take a listen to this. Its all fake news. It is phony stuff. It didnt happen. Very sad what they have done with this fake dossier. It was made up. Does anyone really believe that story . Im also very much of a germaphobe by the way. Believe me. Close, but no cigar. That is President Trump. Ill read you what he said. Newt gingrich says i think the idea of putting trump in a room with very clever lawyers who are trying to trap him would be a bad idea. Given your views as a lawyer, can trump just avoid testifying at all . I mean, he could try, but to try to avoid testifying after hes said publicly that im willing to cooperate and his lawyer is saying that he is willing to cooperate and be interviewed would seem sort of suspicious. But i know as a defense attorney im afraid of putting my clients up on the stand because i dont want them to be scrutinized by the prosecutor. That is sla are heimilar here. Trump is not necessarily the most well spoken. And for example with the james comey, he told lester holt that russia was on his mind when he fired him. So he could say very incriminating things in this interview, soild interview, so i would be very cautious. And any response to that . Here is the dossier, 300 pages. I must say ive only read 150 of it so far. But really it is almost a nonevent in the sense that what hes really doing is talking about his business and his investigation business. And the fact that he has used chrisser to steele in the past and hes always been a reliable credible investigator. But it being a nonevent is good for mueller in the sense that the republican critique had been that maybe what youre holding, and you can hold it up again, that there would have been something bad in there. And youre saying its really just normal investigative work. Sure. I use investigators like this all the time. And there is nothing in here that is really unusual. But to go to the point about trump being a witness, i mean, he could take the fifth amendment. Hed be basically saying a truthful answer to the question would tend to incriminate him, which would be counter to everything he has been saying all along about this being a witch hunt. And on top of it i think that he has a real problem with flynn. That is another thing i want to ask you about, so stick around. Youll be talking to a trump supporter. Well have a whole back and forth. Thank you very much for joining us. Coming up, questions bhob muellr might want to join the president. And one of the biggest revelations from fire afire an ill flow explore later and why matter. S. People would stare. Psoriasis does that. It was tough getting out there on stage. I wanted to be clear. I wanted it to last. So i kept on fighting. I found something that worked. And keeps on working. Now . They see me. See me. See if cosentyx could make a difference for you cosentyx is proven to help people with moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. Find clear skin that can last. Dont use if youre allergic to cosentyx. Before starting cosentyx, you should be checked for tuberculosis. An increased risk of infections and lowered ability to fight them may occur. 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Well, when i got contacted by the House Intelligence Committee and invited to come and testify, you know, i was told by my attorneys and any other lawyer who would i would speak to that speaking to investigators in the house or the senate is really a dangerous enterprise, but it really gets to be a sticky wicket when you go to speak to the special prosecutor and investigators. Ive not been contacted by the special prosecutor in the russia investigation. But i think that it could be a mistake for the president to do this. I know he has been deposed before because he is a very successful businessman. He has been in and out of corporate litigation for a couple generations. So i think he knows what to expect. I also think his lawyers have a pretty good handle on this. Ill support whatever they decide to do. But i think that it is something they might want to consider taking a pass on. Nick. Well, if i were advising donald trump what to do, as an attorney, i would tell him to take the fifth. Because hes just got too much to lose here. I mean, his lawyers first of all, he has alier to of l lhist. And the real problem hes got is with mike flynn. Because we dont know and his lawyers dont know exactly what flynn is going to say. And if i were a prosecutor, i would try and get him on record as to what i know flynn can say that is corroborated by other testimony and other evidence. And i think that is the real problem he has going into this. Now, on the other hand, politically speaking, there is no way he can take the fifth amendment. He cant refuse to answer questions saying i refuse to answer on the grounds that a truthful answer would tend to be incriminating. He could argue that as president , at least if it relates to matters of state and National Security, et cetera, that maybe he shouldnt have to to testify. Good expe. Expect for the fact that everything they want to ask him about is what happened before he became president. The obstruction part is different, but certainly as to any conspiracy between the campaign and the russian government, he doesnt have any privilege there. Do you worry, michael, that whether or not any actual links to russia that involve the campaign are found in a criminal way, which has not at all been proven by the evidence, do you worry that Donald Trumps style of speaking about this could cause more problems . I mean, this is a person that i know you believe in and that youve worked for. But apart from ideology, this is a person who announced that russia was on his mind when he removed jim comey, who had a tweet go out from his account that he knew flynn lied to the fbi and that we were all told to make believe that that was written by someone else. This is a person who apart from what happened with russia, which im always careful and fair to note is not proven in any way at a criminal level does say things you have to admit that hurt his case. Well, i think that there is credible reporting out there from the new yoNew York Times other organizations that this investigation is basically mueller and what mueller wants to ask the president about is leaning more towards obstruction than russia. And weve seen no real evidence of criminal activity or even collusion with russia throughout this investigation. Certainly it doesnt point to the president. However, in my opinion, i think that, you know, its definitely a risk for the president to do this, but what theyre really after is this president the president s conversations with general flynn it seems to me. I think that the democrats as well as a lot of other people want to know the conversation between the president and general flynn when they were discussing the accusations about russia, et cetera, and, you know, if there was any discussion of falsification or concealment, that would be a problem. It might lead to an obstruction charge. But i just dont see it. Michael caputo, i always appreciate getting your perspective. Im glad you make time for us. Nick ackerman, thank you both. Up ahead, donald trump bringing the tv cameras inside the white house. He wanted to appear like he was negotiating. And later, some of the other revelations from the big book that led to tonights ousting of steve bannon from Breitbart News. And the best. Which egg tastes more farmfresh and delicious . Only egglands best. Which egg has 6 times more vitamin d, 10 times more vitamin e, and 25 less saturated fat . Only egglands best. Which egg is so special, id never serve my family anything else . 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Trump meeting with lawmakers from both parties in an open setting about immigration for over 50 minutes with the cameras on. Now, we do see certain types of debates play out on camera. Cspan began showing the house in 1979. But remember the executive branch is different. Negotiations there happen behind closed doors. We dont get to keep a camera in the cabinet room. Now, this is a former reality tv host and he may just want to look like he is doing work. But still what we saw on camera today, lawmakers actually having to grapple with the president in what would usually be closed door meetings about an immigration deal, that is something worthwhile. Sun slight a disinfectant. That means what youre seeing here maybe an infection in your view, but it is a better thing for our civic democracy when we can all see it. Take a look at democratic senator horono. You have put it out there that you want 18 billion for a wall or else there will be no daca. Is that still your position . Yeah, i can build it for less by the way. But you want i must tell you, im looking at these prices, somebody said 42 billion. I like to build underbudget, okay . And ahead of schedule. We can build the wall for one year and for much less money that what theyre talking about. No, donald trump did not answer the senators key question about daca, instead talking up building schedules. He also doesnt talk in the private meetings apply about mexico paying for the walled. Senator fine stein also pressed the president on whether it was possible to pass a clean fix for daca and that led to a House Republican leader then trying to clean up Donald Trumps tendency to lean into whatever the latest question was. What about a clean daca bill now . I have no problem. I think that is basically what dick is saying. Well come up with daca, and then we can start immediately on the phase two which would be comprehensive but i think we have to do daca first. Mr. President , you need to be clear though. I think what senator feinstein is asking here, we dont want to be back here two years later. You have to have security as the secretary would tell you. I think thats what shes saying. No, i think shes saying something different. What do you think im saying . I think youre saying daca without security. Mr. President , i think what shes saying no, that is not no, thats not what shes saying. Turns out their bathroom negotiations are like heated family dinner parties perhaps and that is also revealing because there was confusion there about what theyre going to do. Another clash came with the number two democrat in the house. With all due respect, bob, and mike, and lindsay, there are some things that youre proposing that will be very controversial. And will be an impediment to agreement. But youre going to negotiate those things. Youll say well give you half of that. Youll negotiate those things. Comprehensive means comprehensive. No, were not talking comprehensive. If you want go there that is okay because youre not that far away. It went on like that for a while. Howard dean is with me. Governor, we the rest of us dont usually get to see this. You have run the party. You have been a governor. You are in more of these back room meetings. What did you take away from those exchanges . I thought it was pretty unscripted. I know why they did it, they did it because donald trump called himself a whatever, a stable genius or whatever it was and i think they wanted to prove that he wasnt crazy. But i thought it was actually fairly refreshing. There is a back and forth. I think that trump really is a negotiator. I dont think he doesnt care ideologically about much of this. And i think he hung his own people out to dry a little bit. You know, it was i think it was more of a genuine meeting than you usually get in these things. So you think you are known as someone who is critical of the president , but perhaps not reflexively so. You think this was on balance a good thing to do . I do think it was a good thing. I think they did it because they were on defense about whether the president was sane or not. But i think that the dialogue was fairly real. And you know, he was opposing the democrats on some things and then turn around and oppose his people on some things. This is a guy who doesnt really care about policy, he just wants to get to a deal. So well see what happens. There is a deal to be had here. The problem is that there is not much good faith between the parties after some of the other goings on. And people say things are getting meta, like a negotiation about a negotiation, we watch what happens, we look at the news and when trump says you guys will negotiate that, youll sit down and youre going to say listen, and youre going to negotiate it, and im thinking but thats what this meeting is. And hoyer said comprehensive means comprehensive and trump says no, were not talking about comprehensive, now were talking about and hoyer says we are talking about comprehensive. And i thought they are talking about talking a lot. Yeah, look, i wont say a lot got done, and i dont think trump knows anything about the policies, he never has cared a lot about policy, but i thought that, you know, ive seen a lot of these things. Ive been in them and seen them. The reason you do them is for staging. And thats why his staff convinced him that they should do this and im sure he agreed being a television guy. The dialogue was fairly unscripted. And i think it unnerved the republicans and i thought the democrats im sure the democrats arent going to buy this after all this time, but i think it is conceivable that trump will come down somewhere in the middle of this. Trump wants a deal. He wants a deal and that means the republicans will have to give in something and they dont think they 14should. And you are saying they are unnerved and mccarthy was very unnerved whenever he was trying to clean out whatever he heard. Governor dean, always appreciate your insights. Thanks. Breaking news tonight was of course breaking when we came on stage. Steve bannon out at breitbart. Biggest fallout of michael wo f wolffs book. But something you may not have heard that is in this big book. , you not only want a clean feeling every day, you want your denture to be stain free. Did you know theres a specialty cleanser thats gentle enough for everyday use and cleans better than regular toothpaste . Try polident cleanser. It has a four in one cleaning system that kills ten times more odor causing bacteria than regular toothpaste, deep cleans where brushing may miss, helps remove tough stains, and maintains the original color of your dentures when used daily. 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Now to as promised my take on basically the one thing everyone in politics has been talking about, fire and fury. The book lighting a fire under the Trump White House and which has through the power of the reporting in this book through words on a page split trump from his former campaign chief steve bannon. And tonight this book is clearly what then ejected bannon from his perch of media influence, ousting him from breitbart. Michael wolff reports other people in trumps orbit could also lose their jobs on the palace intrigue may not be over. I happened to be off last week, so i began seeing the explosive reaction on to this book before actually getting my hands on it. Reading it reveals there is actually far more here than embarrassing stories about trump world, though there is plenty of that. There is a larger point in this book for our understanding of the trump presidency. And the world were living in. The point is that, according to this book, none of this was supposed to happen. I dont mean like at a level of logic or legitimacy or saying a person shouldnt be president or isnt qualified. That is a judgment the electorate makes. The book suggests something far deeper. That donald trump never wanted to be president and never planned to be president. And that he admitted that to his most trusted confidants. And wolfwolffs account, that w make the con even deeper. The political attack on trump as a con man, that he is conning voters to get attention or personal enrichment while president. This book actually gives an account of a much deeper con where the payoff wasnt just sending say foreign diplomats to patron trumps hotel, no, the book says it was a con of a hoax of a president ial campaign designed to lose so trump could profit in attention and revenue after the loss. Wolff isnt saying this is a selfish or childish campaign. He is reporting that when to comes to winning, it was a fake campaign. Maybe all those being a could youations fakery are some kind of tell. None of the ideological, its not about trumps politics, its about trump. And thats what makes it more devastating to trumpism, because it could depress even his supporters if they accept the account in the book and the evidence that trump was conning them. Now, this part of the book has gotten, i think, a little less attention, because no ones lost a job over that yet. And its also so counter to Donald Trumps brand that it takes more thinking to untangle. Even a lot of trump critics buy into the story that he only cares about winning, they say that. This book says that trump didnt actually need to win. He liked the game. He was so happy to just be in the game that he preemptively surrendered to hillary. He was planning a loss and happily playing along. This book was saying that trump was basically happy to be the republicans version of the Washington Generals to hillarys harlem globetrotters. That rutrump was happy to don a green jersey like the one you see on your screen there and every day get played by hillary, which is different than many covered 2016. The book argued that he would be like that washington general player you see there, leaving the net open while the globetrotters win and dunk. Boom. Wolff reports trump told allies, losing was winning and he would be the most famous man in the world, a martyr to crooked hillary. And wolff said he based this reporting on more than 200 interviews. I have recordings, i have notes, i am certainly and absolutely in every way comfortable with everything ive reported in this book. The book quotes people like roger ailes and Rupert Murdoch for evidence. Those are people wolff dined with and spent years covering for other books. But is there more evidence . I can tell you tonight, yeah. The evidence that trump was the Washington Generals, or as wolff puts it in the book, the producers. Thats another plot where people win by trying to lose. Heres some evidence. First, trump didnt launch his campaign by donating a big amount of money. He began, basically, from the start with a selfproclaimed billionaire making a loan, cwhih i reported at the time. And while a primary campaign can run over 130 million, he didnt put in 25 or even 5 of that. He began with less than 1 , under 800,000. He wouldnt Hire Campaign professionals. Of course, its one thing to say, fine, you want people outside the beltway. Its another to say you want the most important job with no professional help. Can we stop and think about that for a minute . That would be like Trump Building a hotel with employees who had never done a building before or launching a season of the apprentice with people who had never produced tv. Trump didnt do those things that way and under wolffs theory in this book, its because those things were more important to him than the white house, which he planned to lose. And when trump surged and seemed close to winning in iowa, he ducked out of the final tv debate there over allegedly with a fight with megyn kelly, or maybe that was cold feet. He spent that night at an event that paved the way for his loss in iowa to ted cruz. But trump did find time to launch a tvstyle program. The book reports that was all about planning to make money after the loss and encouraged by ailes that they were floating rumors about a trump network. Trump didnt sound like someone making a Closing Argument to win. He sounded like someone laying down the messaging about that planned loss. Do you make the same commitment that you will absolutely sir, that you will absolutely accept the result of this election . I will look at it, at the time. Im not looking at anything now. Ill look at it at the time. She should not be allowed to run. And just in that respect, i say, its rigged. Because she should never chris, she should never have been allowed to run for the presidency. We saw that in public. In private, the book says ailes was recounting trumps argument that he was excited to lose. I dont think about it as losing, because its not losing. Weve totally won, he allegedly said. And that attitude went to election day, the Trump Campaign challenging early votes in nevada. Trumps lawyers say Election Officials in four mostly democratic polling places in las vegas illegally stayed open beyond the posted closing time and allowed people to vote who got in line after the polls closed. A spokesperson for clark county has said that that did not happen. There was nothing improper. This is something that the Trump Campaign has said that they would do, if they found anything that they thought was kproimpro. Playing up that losing message. And trump won, he walked out on the stage that night and was the first candidate in a modern era to get on stage at a victory peach and then ask a staffer to speak. In a certain way, i did this reince, come up here. Get over here, reince. Stay a few words. Thougno, no. Oh, come on, say something. Ladies and gentlemen, the next president of the united states, donald trump literally dragging reince there. That may have been out of shock. Wolff writes that donald trump jr. Reportedly said that his father looked as if he had seen a ghost that night. Was this all an accident . Are we living through the plot of the producers wolffs reporting does match what a lot a of people who knew trump over the years said about this from the start. That it was not about making america great, it was about making trump great. In fact, a musician and businessman, 50 cent, has been saying that exact theory for months. His presidency is an accident. If you are a president by accident, you might do some of the things donald trump is doing. I think he was doing that to build his profile for a bigger deal on television and everything else. He wanted to lose the presidency. He didnt want the job. Before this book, he dont want the job was a theory. Now its become an account backed by a lot of interviews. Maybe thats what scares the white house so much right now. Wondering, what if . I let go of all those feelings. Because i am cured with harvoni. Harvoni is a revolutionary treatment for the most common type of chronic hepatitis c. Its been prescribed to more than a quarter million people. And is proven to cure up to 99 of patients whove have had no prior treatment with 12 weeks. Certain patients can be cured with just 8 weeks of harvoni. Before starting harvoni, your doctor will test to see if youve ever had hepatitis b, which may flare up and cause serious liver problems during and after harvoni treatment. Tell your doctor if youve ever had hepatitis b, a liver transplant, other liver or kidney problems, hiv or any other medical conditions and about all the medicines you take including herbal supplements. 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If you have thoughts on any of these stories, you can come on to our facebook page, the beat with ari facebook. Com thebeat with ari. Let us know what you want to hear. Up next, hardball with Chris Matthews. The book that bounced bannon. Lets play hardball. Good evening. Im Chris Matthews in washington. Hes out. Breitbart announced today that steve bannon, President Trumps number one or number actually, onetime adviser and top champion is stepping down from his post at the rightwing website. Bannon quickly fell out of favor, of course, last weak aft week of the publication of the new book, fire and fury by Michael Wolff. In the book, ban