Obamacare is seven years old. Trump care may have lasted only one day. Thats going to be our top story in a moment. Also breaking tonight, a federal court blocking trumps revised travel ban. The administration as you may remember had won this partial victory before. Thats over. Tonight this ban once again in peril. Later tonight what chuck just mentioned, our special report on a putin rival speaking out. My exclusive interview with a man who risked everything including his life to take on Vladimir Putin. And after the interview, Rachel Maddow is here live to break it down. Plus bob muellers team now going through its list. Its reached another former top trump aide, sean spicer, according to politicos reporter. And we have a report on how americas war hero, john mccain, is calling out donald trump directly, making a plea that goes beyond the usual political sniping, a plea for america to rebut the core of trumpism. Plus, forget fake news, folks, this is fact news and facts apparently still matter. So we have a lot of important stories tonight but we are beginning with the big breaking news. Obamacare is becoack. Gop senator Lamar Alexander and patty murray reaching this brand new deal to fund care for poor families. Thats what trump began cutting off last week, a direct rebuttal to trump saying this today. Obamacare is a disaster. Its virtually dead. As far as im concerned it really is dead and i predicted that a long time ago. Its a concept that doesnt work. Then, four minutes after that statement was made, a bipartisan deal announced leading a reporter to ask about it and suddenly donald trump switched gears, welcoming the solution to a funding shortage that he partially caused. Apparently Lamar Alexander has said hes made a deal with senator patty murray to stabilize obamacare. Has the white house been involved in those negotiations and will you support that deal . Yes, we have been involved and this is a shortterm deal for a year or two years and it will get us over this hump. It is a shortterm solution so that we dont have this very dangerous little period including dangerous period for Insurance Companies by the way. They are working together, and i know very much what theyre doing, okay . Okay. A sudden turn. But if thats where it ends, some would like to give credit to President Trump for at least landing on a bipartisan funding plan for health care. But at this hour we can report that is not where he landed. White house staff right now walking back the president s comments at this very hour asserting there isnt a deal as far as theyre concerned. Negotiations ongoing. And we have a new on the record statement from white house legislative director mark shore telling nbcs Hallie Jackson trump is, quote, applauding the bipartisan deal but also, quote, absolutely not endorsing all of it. The blow here to trumps authority has become rather typical. In biological terms, trumps legislative promises have a halflife of about five minutes. They decay before hes even finished a typical press conference. But lets put the president s reputation aside. What about the blow to americans wondering if their health care will continue. Last week the answer was no. Last month the answer was yes. Trump could not get the senate to repeal obamacare. Then it was no when he was using executive power to begin defunding it. Today the answer is, well, the best i can tell you is tbd. Im joined by that reporter, nbcs Hallie Jackson working the white house beat. Also Senior Adviser to president obama. And writer for the New York Times magazine and hosts the podcast, with friends like these. Im happy the three of you are friends of the beat, at least for the next few minutes. Nira, walk us through why this matters and halle is going to give us the latest reporting. This deal is really critical. It does a fair amount of the damage that President Trump has done so far to the Affordable Care act and really not the Affordable Care act but the damage hes done to Peoples Health insurance. It enforces the cost sharing reductions which will help improve affordability of people, all the numbers of people losing care will be aameliorated by what is proposed here, a 20 to 25 reduction for people, it establishes funding for outreach, another step that the president wasnt willing to take. He wasnt funding outreach. So this really does try to undo the damage that trump has done himself. I think its an oddity when the president endorses something and then his staff unendorses it. Usually you can count on the president to speak for the white house. This white house, obviously we have some concerns but i think there are a lot of republican senators who after what President Trump did on friday wanted a bipartisan deal to solve the problem hes created, and i think thats creating a lot of impetus. A few House Freedom caucus members sound promising as well. Halle . A couple of things here to unpack because i will tell you that sitting out in the rose garden when the president made those comments about specifically the Alexander Murray deal, not grahamcassidy, not block grants, he seemed to be signaling this openness to it, that he was supporting it because he talked about how this was a shortterm deal. It would only be in place for a little bit. It was a little head scratching to some of the reporters because it essentially puts back in place what the president just last week cancelled. You think, huh, thats a little bit different, thats a little unusual. Lets go figure out what this means. Im printing out the transcript of exactly what the president said, word by word, taking it to officials in the white house and saying explain this to me. Mark short told me while he is open, he is applauding this bipartisan effort, he is absolutely not endorsing all of it. Specifically a Sticking Point are these waivers to allow states to waive out of some of these requirements called 1332s. Thats something the white house believes it can already do. It doesnt need congress to give it permission to do. The bottom line that were even talking about Sticking Points, aree, is an indication that perhaps the white house at large is not backing this Alexander Murray compromise. You got the president heading to heritage in like 90 minutes from now to give a speech on tax reform but heritage has come out not a fan of this deal either. When i posed the question to one official, hey, isnt that a little awkward that hes going to this place that doesnt back the deal that he just endorsed, the response was well, if he had endorsed it maybe it would have been awkward. Let me go to ana because it raises the question of depending on the person, whether its possible that donald trump being in a very conservative venue for his next speech could again change the words he recovers. Undoubtedly. I think he will. He always plays to his audience. I was like, like many people, stunned at the rose garden statement that he made. This was something the csr payments are something that he described as payoffs just a few days ago. He was very proud of himself for supposedly interrupting some kind of corrupt business, as he described it. I know trump doesnt understand policy, but i really thought he would understand corrupt payoffs. I thought that that was to be an area that he would be pretty sure what was going on. All of a sudden he was in favor of them which again maybe not that surprising. Hes generously not well versed in the details of most things, so that allows him to freelance quite a bit and i expect him to freelance even more tonight. I can never tell if what he is doing is giving his aides constant heart attacks or just lelg them into a false sense of security when he does stay on script. This is what d. R. E. A. M. Ers and the iran deal and these obamacare funds all have in common which is they are things under executive control where the president has announced one thing and then asks congress to lien up or reverse the thing hes announced and then he says, yeah, ill work with you on it. Work on what . You just did this last week. It is odd that he created the impetus for actually passing this bill with republicans. I mean, Lamar Alexander and patty murray have been working on this for months and what really happened here is that republicans wanted a deal after what he did friday. Its not just that hes made the statement today. He did call senator alexander over the weekend and say he was supportive of a bipartisan effort and weve heard comments like that in the past where weve heard that hes made calls to Lamar Alexander to encourage a bipartisan solution. The issue of republicans is really just to bottom line it is if they dont take this bipartisan deal, a Million People will Lose Health Care over the next year. Premiums will sky rocket and it will be their fault. So this bipartisan deal isnt the solution its a solution for the American People but its also a solution for the Republican Party because donald trump put a gun to their head and now theyre trying to basically solve the problem. Its like really up to them if they want to do that or not but i imagine they do. The other breaking news is on russia. Hallie jackson, youre speaking from a room where sean spicer used to brief everyone. Reporting coming in tonight fresh in our newsroom that he is now the next person on the list who spoke to muellers team. Were seeing former officials like reince and spiecer talking. What do you know . Nbc news has not confirmed that reporting that youre talking about regarding sean spicer. Weve reached out to both the former press secretary as well as his attorney to get information but it does come on the heels, as you noted there, reince priebus, the former chief of staff had just been in for his interview, his lawyer confirmed at the end of last week, took a long time. These things arent quick. Youre a lawyer, you know how these things go. When you talk to folks who are familiar with this investigation and the special counsels inquiry they will say it is a sign that the pace seems to be moving forward now. This is what you would expect. Of course whats next are some of the staffers currently inside the white house. To our knowledge only one has been interviewed. Were keeping on eye on who goes next. Those interviews with investigators can take a long time because of what lawyers call the james brown rule, talking loud, saying nothing. It could take hours. Thank you very much. We have more on spicer later in the show. Were going to break down as well the withering criticism from john mccain and joe biden on trumps vision of america. And later, a Russian Oligarch who spent ten years in putins jail speaking out for the First Time Since trump took office. Putin is a strong tactician, no doubt, and hes more experienced than trump. If they were to face off, i wouldnt bet on trump. He does appear to make some news with new revelations about the russians who met with Jared Kushner. Also im going to speak with a very special guest about all of it. Rachel maddow is here later today. Youre watching the beat on msnbc. But while some push High Commission investment products, Fisher Investments avoids them. Some advisers have hidden and layered fees. 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You could ask other people. I dont know what obamas policy was. Kelly did attend a white house breakfast with the obamas for gold star families but the broader point isnt comparing president ial responses here but that trump took the focus off these Fallen Soldiers to stoke a false comparison with another politician. All of this against the backdrop of john mccains powerful address last night. To fear the world we have organized and led for threequarters of a century, to abandon the ideals we have advanced around the globe, to refuse the obligations of International Leadership and our duty to remain the last best hope of earth for the sake of some halfbaked spurious nationalism cooked up by people who would rather find scapegoats than solve problems [ applause ] he didnt mention trump but the president must have recognized himself for selling spurious nationalism. And then mccain said trumps ideology belongs in historys garbage can. Its as unpatriotic as an attachment to any other tired dogma of the past that americans consigned to the ash heap of history. That is a reference to Ronald Reagan predicting the fall of the soviet union. What im describing now is a plan and a hope for the long term, the march of freedom and democracy which will leave marxism, lennonism on the ash heap of history. Then mccain said americas great because of its ethnicity. We live in a land made of ideals, not blood and soil. That is a reference to the nazi chant that the white nationalists were using in charlottesville. [ chanting blood and soil ] a powerful call for patriotism and with me is allison jazzlow, an iraq army vet. Executive director of veterans of america. Allison, quite a contrast. Your thoughts . I think the reality is that most americans cant even relate to the sacrifice that families of the fallen have not only made themselves and instead of actually acknowledging and recognizing troops who weve recently lost in a surprise in africa, we went quickly to politics and i think that thats honestly a shame. Leah, you look at this, it was an address from john mccain last night at a time that we all know is difficult for him and his family as he battles for his life. It was really rooted in history and an alternative vision of america. Absolutely. I got to ask you, ari, where is the lie . This is what was so powerful about this speech last night which is that it called out all the things that the nation has been wrestling over, been fighting over, that have been in the headlines that the president has equivocated over. And then said that this is not the kind of patriotism that i want to be associated with. It belongs in the ash bin of history. I think too, though its really powerful in this moment is that it put accountability back on donald trump. So one of the things that we saw over and over again is that trump is very willing to use patriotism as a kind of political football. Its something to be wielded. Its something to use as a line of attack or a tool of attack. And here comes john mccain who has been under attack from donald trump saying no, thats not the brand of patriotism that i want to buy or what america should represent at this moment in time. Yeah, and were seeing a special disgust i think displayed by other people who have dealt with one of the most tortureous parts of being a leader in government looking at the families of the people who made the ultimate sacrifice. This was attorney general holder who of course overseas Law Enforcement and agents who also lose their lives. He tweeted very unusual language. He said stop the damn lying. Youre the president. I went to Dover Air Force base with 44, barack obama, i saw him comfort the families of both the fallen military and the dea. You know, i think she hit the nail on the head there with the fact that veterans, folks like myself who have been to iraq twice and especially families of the fallen, our gold star families among us, should not be used as political shields and its happening all too often these days. What we really need to do is slow ourselves down and really think about the sacrifice. Look at the images on your screen, ari. We need to spend more time focusing on that, and the supports that president s give to families of the fallen, it comes in all different types. What we really need to do is support organizations like the tragedy Assistance Partnership for families excuse me, taps, and make sure that those organizations, nonpolitical organizations take the politics out of this, get the support and the families get the support that they need. Allison, thank you for your service. Thank you for talking to us. Professor leah wright, thank you both. Still ahead as promised, the beat exclusive with a Russian Oligarch jailed and then exiled for criticizing Vladimir Putin. What would happen if you went back to russia right now . Well show you his answer tonight as his first tv interview since trump took office, revealing what he knows about Russian Election meddling. Ill break it down with my special guest, Rachel Maddow. tires screeching bell mnemonic i tabut with my back paines, i couldnt sleep and get up in time. Then i found aleve pm. Aleve pm is the only one to combine a safe sleep aid plus the 12 hour pain relieving strength of aleve. Im back. Aleve pm for a better am. Whats that, broheim . I switched to geico and got more. More savings on Car Insurance . Yeah brofessor, and more. Like renters insurance. More ways to save. Nice, brotato chip. Thats not all, brotein shake. Geico has motorcycle and rv insurance, too. Oh, thats a lot more. Oh yeah, im all about more, teddy brosevelt. Geico. Expect great savings and a whole lot more. In the russia probe, bob mueller is investigating two periods of time, what happened during the campaign and what happened after. The Campaign Part is all the buzz words you hear, collusion, hacking, targeting. What happened after implicates a whole different set of criminal laws because after november government power is involved. Were there bribes for Government Action or deals to end sanctions. Bob mueller is zeroing in on trump staffer meetings with russians after november like Jared Kushners december meeting with the head of a kremlin bank, sergei gore kof. The bank says it met kushner for a business meeting. Kushners team denies that, saying i was a diplomatic meeting. Now the fbi is investigating whether russians suggested to kushner that relaxing economic sanctions would allow russian banks to allow financing for people with ties to trump, according to reuters. Heres the key. Sergei gore kof doesnt run just any bank. Hes a putin appointee, trained russian spy and acting as a cover for russian spies in new york. One of his employees was indicted in 2015. He pled guilty to spying in the u. S. Undercover of being a legitimate banker. The more you know about gore kof, the more you see he uses the tools of finance and espionage on behalf of putin. So what was his agenda when he met with kushner . Who was calling the shots . How can americans learn more . One man who knows is gore kofs former boss, Mikhail Khodorkovsky. He employed gore kof in russias Largest Oil Company. But khodorkovsky crossed putin and ended up in a russia prison. Hes now exiled in zurich. Hes not the easiest person to interview about his old employee, gorekof. In fact, khodorkovsky hasnt done an american tv interview since trump took office, until now. He is my exclusive guest tonight. 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Go ahead, spoil yourself. The es and es hybrid. Experience amazing. We turn to our special report tonight, my exclusive interview with an exiled putin rival followed by a discussion with msnbcs Rachel Maddow. Mikhail khodorkovsky was the richest man in russia until he crossed Vladimir Putin and lost nearly everything. He became the most trusted figure in russia, and quote, putins biggest liability. This is his First American tv interview since trump took office. Translator could i have been murdered . Certainly. I was knifed in the face while sleeping. Was i afraid of it . Nyet. Reporter Mikhail Khodorkovsky spent ten years in prison after crossing Vladimir Putin. Once the richest man in russia, he made a fateful decision to criticize putins corruption at a 2003 meeting to putins face. Translator this is a man with a very particular view of life, a view typical of special Services Operatives or gangsters. If you show willingness to negotiate, it means youre weak and must be squashed. Reporter khodorkovsky did not seem weak. The well connected oligarch ran russias Largest Oil Company before putin seized it and had an auctioneer gavel a sham sale to the kremlin, and prosecuting him, displaying khodorkovsky in a steel cage during one trial and in a plexiglass cube in another trial. The verdict was international news. Khodorkovsky stunned to hear the harsh sentence. Reporter after ten years in prison, he was freed and exiled. Tonight the host nation of russia is continuing a well timed release of high profile prisoners. Mikhail khodorkovsky decided that he would put his money to work for what he wanted for his country. Reporter now hes speaking out and just sat down in his First American tv interview since trump took office. Translator there was a very small group in the kremlin that has usurped power by taking the post of the president. Nobody elected this group. It exists above the russian law. Reporter he says that small group meddled in 2016. Translator i am almost convinced that putins people have tried to influence the u. S. Election in some way. On the scale of zero to 10, what number, in your view, do you give the theory that putin did seek to collaborate and collude with the Trump Campaign . Translator i would say nine out of ten that he personally and his inner circle attempted to cooperate. Whether or not that proposal was accepted, i would let the people responsible for investigating the matter answer that question. Reporter bob mueller may answer that question. Hes investigating russians offering trump aides information to incriminate Hillary Clinton from the prosecutor of russia, an apparent reference to ury chiek ka. Translator i wouldnt find it at all unusual if mr. Chiek ka used an attorney he knew to propose some kind of deal to future influential persons in america because he would want to make himself useful to Vladimir Putin. Were he to decide to take such a step, he would get permission from Vladimir Putin beforehand. Reporter khodorkovsky worked with other putin allies also implicated in the russia investigation, his former employee Sergei Gorkov runs a kremlin bank and met with Jared Kushner in december. Translator when he worked for me he was a fine employee. I have no doubt he wouldnt do anything on his own behalf. He is a man who carries out orders. Reporter for the first time khodorkovsky says he thinks those orders came from putins top bankers. Translator if there were instructors, they came from the chairman of the board of the bank or the level of mr. Graph which isnt as likely. Reporter one of those putin bankers organized a 2013 dinner for donald trump, along with the same trump associate named in the trump power emails. How do you interpret that the russian bank says this was for business and the Trump Administration and the u. S. Government say it was for government . Translator its difficult for me to interpret such a contradiction. However, its very possible that what your administration regards as a governmental issue, russian representatives view as purely business. Although in my experience, its typically the opposite. Reporter the fbi is investigating if that kushner meeting was purely business and if kremlin money was offered to influence relations with the Trump Administration. I hope that we do have good relations with russia. Reporter khodorkovsky says putin is an effective opponent. Translator putin is a strong tactician, no doubt, and hes more experienced than trump. If they were to face off, i wouldnt bet on trump. Reporter but the u. S. Has other advantages. Translator america has something putin doesnt. Putin has a small criminal network behind him. A u. S. President has a huge democratic apparatus behind him. Reporter while he knows the danger of crossing putin, khodorkovsky says he will continue his opposition. Translator i could make my life safer by not getting solved in the sociopolitical life of my country, but then it wouldnt be my life. I am involved and i accept the risks that come with it. What would happen if you went back to russia right now . Translator if i crossed the russian border, i would be arrested and sentenced to life in prison. Reporter prison shaped khodorkovskys outlook and his rationale for risking everything. Did you ever think you might die in prison . Translator we have a joke in our country. First a person is stripped of all pleasures and then asked, are you willing to give up your life. So the person responds, of course, what do i want with this life . The point is, life seems worth living far less inside a russian prison than outside of it. With russian jokes are we supposed to laugh or cry . Translator with nearly all russian jokes, you laugh through the tears. Joining me now is Rachel Maddow from the Rachel Maddow show. Thank you for being here. What do you think were learning from khodorkovsky . First of all, congratulations on getting this interview. Obviously the khodorkovsky story you can pronounce his name better than i can but i followed this story for a long time because the idea of putins grip on russia is at its heart not just a sort of intrigue and drama story in terms of putins influence in our own election, its also a tragedy in terms of the russian people. Russia is a gigantic country. It has immense natural resources. It has a beautiful culture that has contributed so much to the world despite all of the political difficulties and the mass scale politically designed disasters of the modern history of russia. From the czars on down, right . Then you get somebody like khodorkovsky who doesnt get ahead because he killed and stole and con fived his way there. Yeah, russian business after the fall of the soviet union is definitely a dark, dirty and politicized thing, but khodorkovsky is sort of a success story. He builds an oil company. He ought to be succeeding. He ought to be a titan in his country. Hes the richest man in that country, and putin just snips him, just cuts him off. Im glad you played that historical footage in terms of him being in the cage in the courtroom and in the plexiglass cube. Its a tragedy and i have been very curious as to what he thinks about this new adventurism of putin in terms of this influence that hes exerting in our own election. So first of all, i just think its important. Second of all, i do think he made some news in what he told you about Sergei Gorkov. So one of the Trump Administration, trump transition, Trump Campaign russian government contacts that was not disclosed until independent investigators found out about it was this meeting with gorkov. For khodorkovsky, what did he tell you . He said i have no doubt he wouldnt do anything on his own behalf, he is a man who carries out orders. Thats Important News about that meeting, and theres still been no explanation as to what happened there and why Jared Kushner was meeting with him during the transition. Theres a total contradiction between them so either the russian bank is telling the truth or the Trump Administration is telling the truth. It was either a diplomatic meeting or a business meeting. More news we have on this from vpt bank. They say these allegations from khodorkovsky in this new interview are, quote, completely false, unfounded and with no substance. Mr. Koston is not personally acquainted with mr. Putin regarding a possible meeting with mr. Kushner and doesnt understand the point such a meeting could have had. Of course, many of these banks have been working for years. The point of these meetings is to at least lift sanctions. Theyre publicly looking for that. Vladimir putin personally appointed sergei cogorkov to th job he was in when he met with Jared Kushner. He went to the kgb school. And this powerful testimony that you just got from the guy who previously employed him when russia used to be allowed to have private Oil Companies before putin took that for himself and his cronies too. Gorkov meeting with kushner is not just a red flag, it is a blaring red siren. And the fact that its not just contradictory explanations from the white house and the russian side of this, there has been no plausible white house explanation for what Jared Kushner was doing in that meeting. Was it related to Kushner Family business properties, related to the trump trag transition, to sanctions, weve had no explanation of what whatsoever. His m. O. Is to appear to be completely transparent and cooperative. His security clearance application was a complete disaster in terms of disclosing his foreign contacts. His answers about whether or not anybody from the Trump Campaign or the transition had been in contact with russian officials is a complete disaster in terms of what we later learned about those contacts that he didnt disclo disclose. This gorkov meeting in particular, what was it about . The white house should have to say what its about. One of the other things that khodorkovsky talked to me about was how Vladimir Putin controls and stage manages so much in russia and these banks as weve covered are an arm of the state in a sense. Here he was talking about putin in the 2018 forthcoming election which as you covered on your show has been rife with attacks on opponents just like khodorkovsky. Take a look at this. Can putin lose the next president ial election next year . Translator if there was to be an election in 2018 by some miracle, it is highly likely that putin would lose. Instead, in 2018 were going to see a show called president ial election. It cannot be won because it is a show. The show will go exactly as the producer has planned. We know something about that. Scripted television is what they call it here, reality shows. Translator if something unexpected happens, you can always rerecord. And thats the story he lived. Yeah. And, you know, khodorkovsky, to his credit, after going through this ordeal, after having being brought low from being the richest man in russia, being jailed, being humiliated, living through a decade in prison and then being exiled, when he got out what he decide today do was stay involved in russian life, stay involved in trying to promote civic institutions and political opposition parties in russia which as he talked to you about was an incredibly dangerous thing for him to have done but hes done it and ends up being an important horse in terms of russian political life. That in itself is in dramatic and fascinating and hes such a charismatic figure in the same way that khodorkovsky is. You can see his wit even in his interview with you but the difference in russia, the difference with putin is that whats constantly looming over every point of conflict with putin, anybody whos challenging, anybody whos rising to the point of being interesting in terms of opposing putin, what constantly looms over that is your expectation that they will end up dead. And you know, thats not america. Thats not how we do things. To be reminded in the person of khodorkovsky or any of these other people who have been killed, to be reminded about what it means to take putins approach to world politics, for me it makes it very serious. Im interested in the drama and the intrigue and everything. Makes it very serious that putin got this far into our own politics. It is not just a threat to us. Its a mortal threat to american politics to bring somebody this far into it who frequently and without any consequence kills his opponents. Rachel maddow, thank you for being here. Congratulations on the scoop, man. Im super jealous. Well done. Thank you so much. We will all be watching rachel at 9 00 p. M. Tonight of course right here on msnbc. If you have a question, comment about this interview, join us on facebook and leave your questions. Im going to answer some of them, about this reporting. Tomorrow, ahead of the other breaking russia news, bob mueller, his team interviewing sean spicer straight ahead. You nervous . For over 100 years like kraft has,natural cheese you learn a lot about what people want. Honey, do we have like a super creamy cheese with taco spice already in it . Oh, thanks. Bon appecheese okay. A heart attack doesnt or how healthy you look. No matter who you are, a heart attack can happen without warning. A bayer aspirin regimen can help prevent another heart attack. Be sure to talk to your doctor before you begin an aspirin regimen. Bayer aspirin. Anybody whos challenging, anybody whos rising to the point of being interesting in terms of opposing putin, what constantly looms over that is your expectation that they will end up dead. And you know, thats not america. Thats not how we do things, and to be reminded in the person of khodorkovsky or any of these other people, any of the other people who have been killed, to be reminded about what it means to take putins approach to world politics, for me it makes it very serious. Im interested in the drama and intrigue and everything. Makes it very serious that putin got this far into our own politics. Its not just a threat to us. Its a mortal threat to american politics. That was Rachel Maddow moments ago speaking with me. Im joined by joyce vance and jill abrahamson. Joyce advance, i wonder your thoughts on some of i wonder sof you thought that i was digesting with rachel. Some of the things that mueller is investigating and your thoughts on the breaking news that sean spicer added names to people that mueller is speaking to. Weve heard so many from the Trump Campaign and now the administration with high level russian contacts, rush near or sessions, manafort, page, trump jr. And all along the white house and the president saying nothing to look at here, nothing to look at in this trumprussia investigation. But we have this undisclosed contact and now we have an insider, someone who knows putin, who youve spoken to at length and hes saying nine out of ten that putin was personally involved in this. And it really brings everything that we know about the high level of russian contact into focus into what you and rachel discussed as an ominous way for our democracy. Its a way to get a realtime current take from someone who knows how to oligarchs connect with putins financial network. Most who are in good graces arent speaking openly and candidly. The reporting that we looked at in researching this is the the New York Times, and it is vanity fair and the new yorkers who have followed these dissidents out there for years. I want to play a new part of the interview that we havent aired yet which is the dance that he says putin is doing having gotten the perception that he got his guy trump in in the u. S. But still, as you know, still wanting america as a geopolitical foe. Take a look. Translator as for putin, he needs america as his enemy. And now he has the difficult task of constantly explaining how, despite trump being our man in the white house, america is still an enemy. I should say that the kremlin propaganda has been up to the task but its been tough going. That walk us through your views and that pron gan da machine which i think you know well. I do indeed. And you know, putin is among the most artful users of propaganda, and raised to new art form. But, you know, like trump, he creates his own reality. It doesnt need necessarily to comport with the facts. And we see how our own president does that on a daily basis. And though the real news media tries its best to hold his feet to the fire, you know, what he says bears so literal relationship to the truth that it almost seems like something out of the soviet old playbook that putin still seems to be using. And, joyce, one of the other points the oligarch made is that if you understand how the prosecutor in russia works, it is not with the deference that people have in the United States to say the position you held or how it works in a functions democracy. He says this prosecutor who has a history of pub like use, explicitly cited offering dirt on clinton is essentially an arm of the operation and thus his view is that the citing of him specifically by name along with other Trump Associates who are publicly linked to business with trump is relatively incriminating for the theory of the case that there was direct meetings about collusion which is something mueller hasnt answered yet but investigating. Joyce. I think thats right. Prosecutors in russia operate differently than prosecutors in the United States. Here weve watched that play out recently on a public stage where prosecutors have vigorously defended their independence. Weve heard stories about the prosecutor in new york talking about how critical that is to a functioning american democracy. And we know that often in russian sha prosecutors work arm in arm with leaderships. Theres some indication that the conviction of the russia oligarch that you spoke with in fact had overtones and finger plints from higher ups in government and was not independent. Its a very different Playing Field than what weve used to. Fascinating and these words mean Different Things in different places. My personal apologies for jill abramson. We usually have more time for you. I would love to have you back on the beat if youll allow it as they say in court and we will be right back. Excuse me, are you aware of whats happening right now . Were facing 20 billion security events every day. Ddos campaigns, ransomware, malware attacks. Actually, we just handled all the priority threats. You did that . We did that. Really. We analyzed millions of articles and reports. We can identify threats 50 faster. You can do that . We can do that. Then do that. Can we do that . We can do that. Whstuff happens. Old can we do that . Shut down cold symptoms fast with maximum strength alka seltzer plus liquid gels. Our recent online sales success seems a little. Strange . Nk na. Ever since we switched to fedex ground business has been great. Theyre affordable and fast. Maybe too affordable and fast. What if. People arent buying these books online, but they are buying them to protect their secrets . . hi bill. If that is your real name. Its william actually. Hmph affordable, fast fedex ground. You might be missing to stasomething. Your eyes. Thats why theres ocuvite. It helps replenish nutrients your eyes can lose as you age. Nourish your eyes to help keep them healthy. Ocuvite. Be good to your eyes. Welcome back. Weve had quite a busy show. We reported on some of what the Russian Oligarch exiled by Vladimir Putin said about a lot of the things that affect the United States and the russia investigation. There is a broader point as well that rachel was speaking to, how his story reflects the transition of russia under Vladimir Putin. But hes sort of a success story. He builds this oil company. He ought to be succeeding. Taught to be a titan in his country. The richest man in that country and putin just snips him. What did he tell you . He said, i have no doubt he wouldnt do anything on his own behalf. He is a man who carries out orders. Thats Important News about that meeting and theres still been no explanation as to what happened there and why Jared Kushner was meeting with him during the transition. We hope that the reporting has added to thens as and of course more questions. If you want the find out more, look us oup on facebook. The article on nbc. Com. That does it for me. I will see you back here tomorrow night at 6 00 p. M. Eastern. Thank you for watching. And im excited to say, dont go anywhere because right up next is hardball with Chris Matthews. It wont be pretty. Lets play hardball. Good evening. Its Chris Matthews in washington. Senator john mccain the maverick had a message last night and it looked directly aimed at the man in the oval office. Mccain accepted the National Constitution center es Liberty Medal in philadelphia and previously given to nelson mandela, president s jimmy carter, George Herbert walker bush and bill clinton among others. Here is what the arizona senator