Night. Well, good evening once again from our nbc news headquarters here in new york. Day 1,049 of the trump administration. And the New York Times broke a the story today with the heat on Rudy Giuliani. In the midst of the ukrainian investigation rudy has decided theres no better time for a trip to Eastern Europe interviewing people about ukraine. More specifically working on a new project to discredit the democrats case against the ec president. According to the times, giuliani was in budapest tuesday meeting with an ousted ukrainian prosecutor trying to dig up dirt on the president s political rivals. The times reports giuliani then traveled to kyiv on wednesday seeking to meet with other former ukrainian prosecutors whose claims have been embraced by republicans. Former prosecutors who faced allegations of corruption all played some role in promoting claims about former Vice President biden, a former United States ambassador to ukraine, and ukrainians who disseminated damaging information about mr. N Trumps Campaign chairman Paul Manafort in 2016. Those claims have been at the base of the campaign to push ai ukraine into opening inquiries that would benefit trump heading into 2020. The times and nbc news report Rudy Giuliani is using this trip to help produce a protrump, li antiimpeachment documentary for the conservative cable outlet oann, one america news network. Meanwhile, the Associated Press is reporting federal prosecutors investigating rudy and his two indicted associates, we know them as lev and igor, have interviewed the head of ukraines stateowned gas company as part of that inquiry. This all comes a day after the house intel report revealed multiple calls in april and august between giuliani and somebody at the office of management and budget which we now know was involved in the freeze on nearly 400 million in u. S. Military assistance for ukraine that was approved by congress. Today trump dismissed his lawyers phone calls. Mr. President , can you tell us why your personal attorney Rudy Giuliani would need to talk to the Budget Office . I really dont know. Sounds like youd have to ask him. Sounds like something thats not so complicated. But youd have to ask him. No big deal. Somebody said he made a phone call in to the white house. What difference does that make . I dont know. Is that supposed to be a big su deal . I dont think so. For the record, nbc news is reporting that an omb official says no one can identify anybody who spoke with giuliani during the months identified with the call logs. Hs on capitol hill this was day onl for phase two. The house judiciary committees public impeachment hearings. Four constitutional scholars weighed in on trumps conduct st during a session that stretched past the eighthour mark and began with this from the committee chairman. No other president has vowed to, quote, fight all of the subpoenas, unquote, as President Trump promised. In the 1974 impeachment proceedings president nixon produced dozens of recordings. In 1998 president clinton physically gave his blood. President trump by contrast has refused to produce a single t document and directed every witness not to testify. Republicans focused on the three experts called by the democrats and implied they were not fully qualified to testify. What is really interesting today and for the next few weeks is america will see why most people dont go to law school. No offense to our professors. For the opinions that we already know, out of the classrooms that maybe youre getting ready for finals in, to discuss things that you probably havent even had a chance unless youre really good on tv or watching the hearings for the last couple of weeks, you couldnt have possibly actually digested the adam schiff report from yesterday or the republican response in any real way. Now, we can be theoretical all we want, but the American People is really going to look at this and say, huh . After that it was time for the witnesses to respond. T mr. Collins, i would like to say to you, sir, that i read transcripts of every one of the witnesses who appeared in the live hearing because i would not speak about these things without reviewing the facts. What has happened in the case today is something that i do not think we have ever seen before. A president who has doubled down on violating his oath to faithfully execute the laws and to protect and defend the constitution. President trump has committei impeachable high crimes and misdemeanors by corruptly abusing the office of the presidency. The memorandum and other testimony relating to the july 25th, 2019 phone call between the two president s, President Trump and president zelensky, more than sufficiently indicates that President Trump abused his office. After reviewing the evidence thats been made public, i cannot help but conclude that this president has attacked eacl of the constitutions safeguards against establishing a monarchy in this country. If what were talking about is not impeachable, then nothing is impeachable. The sole republican called witness was not so much a defender of the president as he was an advocate against this e proceeding. Im not a supporter of President Trump. I voted against him. Im concerned about lowering impeachment standards to fit a paucity of evidence and an abundance of anger. Its not wrong because President Trump is right. His call was anything but perfect. Ll its not wrong because the house has no legitimate reason to investigate the ukrainian controversy. Its not wrong because were in an election year. There is no good time for an impeachment. No. Its wrong because this is not how you impeach an american president. As that hearing was getting under way, the republicans in the senate met with the white house legal team, as one does, to discuss the trump defense. And House Democratic caucus gathered to block out their next moves in their process. Trump is now back at the white house after attending the twoday accelerated nato summit in the uk. Earlier today he took time during his meetings to lash out at the democrats. Its a disgrace. You have a loser like a stone cold loser, adam schiff. These people, you almost question whether or not they op love our country. And thats a very, very serious thing. Do they in fact love our country. Meanwhile, the Washington Post is reporting that john durham, the prosecutor who was handselected by trumps own attorney general to investigate the russia inquiry, has told the department of justice Inspector General he has no evidence to support that theory that the russia case was concocted by the home team, u. S. Intelligence. Today trump offered this praise for durham despite having never met him. I dont know mr. Durham. Ive never spoken to him. But hes one of the most respected Law Enforcement or u. S. Attorneys anywhere in the country. Hes a tough guy. Hes had an incredible track record. A hes actually sort of nonpartisan i guess from what i hear. Here for our leadoff discussion on a wednesday night, mieke eoyang, attorney and former staffer for both the house intel and Armed Services committees. Jeremy bash, former chief of ess staff at cia and the pentagon and notably former chief counsel to house intel. And anita kumar, White House Correspondent and associate editor over at politico. Good evening and welcome to you all. Mieke, counselor, is this a good time for Rudy Giuliani to travel to Eastern Europe . I dont think theres any good time for Rudy Giuliani to travel to Eastern Europe. But whats very clear about this is the brazenness of giuliani and trump in their pursuit of dirt on the bidens. We are in the middle of an impeachment inquiry. Its entered phase 2. The president knows the er republicans are unlikely to remove him. So his personal attorney is now doubling down on the kind of activity that got him into this trouble in the first place and meeting with these exact same corrupt prosecutors who are pushing a narrative that we know now started with Russian Intelligence Services to try and discredit his most feared political rival. Jeremy bash, there is a stor from political comedy lore that when Richard Nixon tried to say chutzpah once it came out as shutspa. Having said that, is Rudy Giuliani redefining chutzpah in our very eyes . Absolutely. Ry in an opening cartoon in Alan Dershowitzs book chutzpah which is how you pronounce it is a cartoonist saying id like to buy this book chutzpah and id like you to pay for it, to the cashier. Hes engaging in the interference as we speak which is fundamentally an argument for impeachment for the democrats because their argument is its not just to punish past behavior, its actually to prevent an abuse of power today and to prevent trump and his allies from trying to rig the 2020 election. If that werent the issue we could potentially wait for the election. But because theyre trying to interfere in the election we have to act now. Anita kumar, when news breaks on capitol hill over at the white house that rudy is on another ukrainerelated trip, do republicans raise a ruckus at all or one you could hear . I didnt hear anything. You heard sort of official washington kind of saying what . Hes there right now . But from trump people, trump world, you heard a lot of people say, well, this is exactly what President Trump does, right . This is a page out of his playbook. He gets criticized for things and then just turns around and does them anyway. Im reminded, its a completely different issue but im reminded he was told that he was under investigation on, you know, using his properties. Was he unfairly profiting from the presidency in his nf businesses . And then he says hes going to hold the g7 at one of his properties. So its exactly the same way that Rudy Giuliani is just going about the business that hes under investigation for. Just sort of a different attitude. And someone said to me its just a new york attitude, its the way they are, and its somethink the president likes in him. Thats why they get along. Theyre very similar in that way. Mieke eoyang, 20 minutes ago the president started tweeting. Well put it on the screen as id read it to you. T when i said in my phone call to the president of ukraine, i would like you to do us a favord though, because our country has been through a lot and ukraine knows a lot about it, with the word us im referring to the United States, our country. I then went on to say i would like to have the attorney general of the United States call you or your people. This based on what i have seen is their big point, and it is no point at all except for a big win for me. The democrats should apologize to the American People. Does that make legal sense, mieke . No, it doesnt make legal sense. When he says id like you to do us a favor, what hes asking for is clearly in his personal political benefit. And in fact when the ukrainians said, hey, will the attorney general make a formal request to us through the appropriate Law Enforcement channels, the gh attorney general declined to do so. So we know this isnt actually about a legal proceeding and punishment of wrongdoing. We know this because they were only interested in the appearance of an investigation. They didnt care about an actual investigation. We know this because Rudy Giuliani is making a documentary, not taking depositions. None of this is about real legal action. This is all about showmanship and political theater. Jeremy bash, take a second and tell us where you are on the understandable temptation of mission creep. The temptation that democrats must have on the precipice of this to reach back into the satchel of the Mueller Report and say look at all this stuff we found, nobody voted it, it never came to the fore. , this is at least one if not two more articles of impeachment. I oppose that, brian. I dont think this should be a kitchen sink impeachment. Although i think you could justify one. I think for the purposes of this inquiry it should be constrained to the ukraine issue. It should be the president s conduct in the runup to the july 25th phone call, the phone call itself, and the activities in the weeks that ensued until he got caught. Because therein he asked and solicited and demanded a foreign country to interfere in the 2020 election and he conditioned military aid and the white house visit on those actions. And those actions in and of themselves are more than sufficient to justify the impeachment inquiry and probably the conclusion that it is a high crime and misdemeanor. And mieke, because this intersects politics with law, the expression from politics is if youre explaining youre losing. It would require them to go back and explain, to coin a term, the origins of their case on obstruction of justice, for example. Yeah. Look, i think there are many people who do think that in the mueller case there was obstruction. But what we have here in this case in ukraine is a very clear case of obstruction that is actually even worse because it is preventing the house from conducting oversight of the president into the specifics that are happening here. So when people like professor turley and the president s allies argue, look, we cant go forward on this because the firsthand witnesses havent comn forward, they neglect to mention that the president has barred those firsthand witnesses from coming forward and has denied 7s document requests that the house investigators have asked for. I mean, this is also the definition of chutzpah. That they would say were holding it back and now you cant get us on the things that were withholding. Superb pronunciation. Well done. Thank you. Fantastic. Hey, anita, we just flashed the front page of tomorrow mornings Washington Post, as scholars opine trump primes for tv to trial. That reminds me of something i wanted to raise with you. Are the republicans overlooking from now until the end of the year the house phase and pushing all their time, attention, and resources onto what the r president keeps saying is his chance for a fair trial with witnesses, oh, by the way, its going to happen in the well of the u. S. Senate . Right. When we saw the white house this week or today not participating in the house judiciary committee, we will see by friday if theyll participate in the upcoming ones. But from everything im hearing the house is just sort of looking past this. There were eight hours today but they feel like the end result is its exactly the same. Its probably going to be a partisan vote. Probably entirely partisan. Maybe a couple people in either party might switch. But pretty much it didnt change anything from their point of view. They know where this is going to end up. W theyre going to move on to this trial. That is why the house is full speed ahead on the trial. They think its going to be much friendlier. Obviously in the republicanled senate, Senate Majority leader Mitch Mcconnell has kind of said that. So theyre already looking on to how theyre going to do that trial. Re what is that going tone tail, who are they going to bring, in how is that going to work . Theyve just sort of moved on t that next phase. And you know what that means. Mishegas. Ou to our starting three for tonight. To mieke eoyang, to jeremy bash, to anita kumar, its been a long day, we covered a lot of ground, and our thanks for showing up. Coming up for us, the unlikely stars of todays hearings. Four constitutional lawyers talking about their lifes workt as Television Cameras looked on. Well go over all of it with a s former u. S. Attorney. And later, while a prominent republican was on tv at the hearing, he was in the news back in his home state for Something Else entirely. All of it as the 11th hour is [ electrical buzzing ] [ dramatic music ] ahhhh ahhhh elliott. You came back the first impeachment i spent all of thanksgiving day vacation sitting there reading these impeachment documents. Stanford University Law professor pamela karlan also spoke about the high stakes surrounding this impeachment inquiry. Because this is an abuse that cuts to the heart of democracy, you need to ask yourselves if you dont impeach a president who has done what this president has done, or at least you dont investigate and then impeach if you conclude that the House Select Committee on intelligence findings are correct, then what youre saying is its fine to go ahead and do this again. Meanwhile, the president weighed in on todays impeachment hearing. As we said, he said he had no representation there. But chairman nadler seemed ready for that comment and pointed out theres a reason no representatives from the white house were in attendance. They get three constitutional lawyers and we get one. Whats that all about . We had no representation. We couldnt call witnesses. We couldnt do anything. It is the most unfair thing that anybodys ever seen. They would have done much better if they gave us equal representation. I note that this is the moment in which the white house would have had an opportunity to question the witnesses but they declined our invitation. Back with us tonight, Barbara Mcquade, veteran federal prosecutor, former u. S. Attorney for the Eastern District of michigan. And, barb, in your view did the white house make a mistake or was this just not their dance, was this a good one to sit out . Well, i think President Trump has made it clear that one of his strategies is to play the victim here, to continue to complain about due process. And i think if he shows up and has representation at these hearings he loses that strategic advantage, that talking point of talking about how the process is unfair and illegitimate. If he sits it out he can continue to maintain that complaint. And i think he will continue to do so. Barb, a lot of talk about the founders today. Must have triggered law school thoughts for you. It did. And i know representative collins said he thought that today demonstrated why not a lot of people go to law school. I thought to the contrary it was a wonderful day for law professors and law school. Law professors are doing very important work to make sure that our country continues to value the rule of law. So i enjoyed hearing about those things. And i thought it was an opportunity for some of our leading legal scholars to shine. But at the same time viewers today saw three law professors on one side of the ideological coin and another one no less educated, no less experienced, who had been called by the other party. What did you make of that dynamic . And of course the partisan differences were accentuated by members in each party going to the people they invited. Sure. I think the members of congress were trying to use the witnesses as an opportunity to agree with their view of things. But i thought there were a few things that came out of this that were very important. All four of the witnesses, regardless of party affiliation, agreed that using military aid as a quid pro quo is an Impeachable Offense. Even the witness called by the republicans thought it was perhaps an Impeachable Offense. His complaint about the situation is that he doesnt believe that there is yet sufficient evidence to prove that. Now, the others disagree with that, and i think ultimately thatll be up to the house when it votes on impeachment and the senate if and when it gets to the point of a trial. But it is clear that this is an Impeachable Offense and i think all four witnesses agree to that. And, barbara, i have to ask you about the timeline. This is of the democrats choosing. Theyre not trying to make any other calendar deadline. Do you feel it is too compressed, too compact if, as they say, their goal is a vote on articles by the end of this calendar year . That was one of the arguments that was made by the professor turley, called by the republicans, that its all moving too fast and there needs to be time for saturation of the narrative in the public consciousness or otherwise the public gets left behind. But i thought chairman nadler actually made a very good point in his opening remarks about why urgency was important here. If we have a president who is inviting foreign interference into our elections, then we need to act immediately. If there was a knifewielding murderer out at large, we wouldnt say we need more time to carefully collect the evidence. Wed stop him in his tracks because hes harming risking harm to the public every day hes out there. And the same is true with regard to President Trump. As long as hes continuing to solicit foreign influence into our elections he cannot be checked with an election alone. He needs to be checked by the constitutional process of impeachment. Again, Barbara Mcquade after a long day of watching all this, thanks for showing up and explaining it to us. And sorry about the ohio state game. Thanks, brian. Youve had a long day as well. Thank you, barb. Coming up for us, why trumps nato trip ended with an awkward and abrupt exit. When we continue. Did you see that video of Prime Minister trudeau last night . Well, hes twofaced. And honestly, hes a nice guy. I find him to be a very nice guy. But you know, the truth is that i called him out on the fact that hes not paying 2 , and i guess hes not very happy about it. For donald trump it had to be a bit like hearing that the cool kids got together and talked about you after school. Thats because a video surfaced overnight our time showing some big name nato leaders. In other words, our closest allies. And they appeared to be mocking donald trump. Lets establish here that its never good to have our president laughed at. The incident appears to have prompted trump to abruptly leave the nato summit early. He canceled a previously scheduled News Conference for 10 30 eastern time this morning. We have two returning veterans here to talk about it tonight. Eugene robinson, Pulitzer Prizewinning columnist for the Washington Post, and mike murphy, republican strategist, codirector of the center for the political future at the university of Southern California and cohost of the podcast hacks on tap, said affectionately with david axelrod. Eugene, yesterday he had already picked something of a fight with macron of france. Today this happened. Where do you rank this trip on overseas trips by this president thus far . Not his favorite. He keeps trying to regain the magic. Remember that first trip to saudi arabia where he touched the magical orb . The glowing orb. Who could forget the dance of the swords . Hes been trying to recapture that magic ever since and it just didnt happen at this nato summit where as you said the cool kids did apparently all gather around and talk about him and laugh at him. In his absence. You know, how many times did President Trump when he was campaigning say oh, were being laughed at under previous president s, theyre laughing at us, and he has this thing about being laughed at and it happened. He obviously was not happy with it. Hes not happy with impeachment going on back home. Not a happy guy right now. And mike, this is where it connects it your world. The Biden Campaign as the president was back tonight put out a campaign video. Were going to play a clip of it. Well talk about it on the other side. World leaders caught on camera laughing about President Trump. Several World Leaders mocking President Trump. Theyre laughing at him. My administration has accomplished more than almost any administration in the history of our country. [ laughter ] didnt expect that reaction, but thats okay. Mike, weve got to point out, its unusual for the Biden Campaign. What do you make of it . Well, i think its pretty good. You know, the Biden Campaign has not been fast on their feet following the news cycle, pivoting, pressing their advantage. And i thought they ran a great tactical play here. Though i have to say within a democratic primary where the electorate all dont like trump. I agree with what you said. We americans dont like to see our president laughed at. But the problem is this president does show up to these summits wearing clown shoes. So within kind of the Foreign Policy elites of the Democratic Party biden hit a home run and he was able to show his stature in serious Foreign Policy versus the president. But my caveat would be in trump world, among trump supporters, trumps a grievance candidate, a grievance personality, and if he shows up and starts yelling at some french president and cant get along with foreigners that doesnt cost him anything with his voters. They even cheer it on. Which is tragic because were supposed to lead the free world. Natos vital. But the politics of trump world, i dont think this hurts him. Yeah, very aware of that. They see an early departure from the nato summit as a victory for their guy and their country. Hey, gene, john bolton said the following on twitter. I wanted to read it to you. Nato is the most important and most successful alliance in human history. Unity against aggression is the best way to ensure International Peace and security. Beyond sounding almost quaint, do you think mr. Bolton is going to be tempted to step forward and share similar thoughts like that perhaps after swearing himself in . Well, yeah, come on in and take a seat already. We now get these sort of occasional tweets and we get hints from his lawyer that he has quite a story to tell about his time in the trump administration. So come in. Were all ears. Wed love to hear it. And i know a couple of committees on capitol hill that would actually clear their calendars to listen to what you have to say, john bolton. So if youre watching this broadcast, please, theres a guy named jerry nadler whose number i can give you. Hey, mike, ive got one for you from a lapsed republican we know around here. Steve schmidt wrote tonight, when the hour comes, as it does for us all, who would have ever imagined that Rudy Giulianis leadership after 9 11 wouldnt be the opening paragraph of his obituary . Instead it will be his starring role as the kooky ringmaster of trumps corruption circus. Mike, he raises a good point. Yeah. Rudy is going to be on the cover of fall from grace magazine because he went from a legitimate high point to a political hack career that a couple of queens aldermen would be offended. Hes run the whole spectrum here. And its kind of a tragedy. But again, at the top is trump, who makes the worst personnel decisions possible in the corner and rudys one of them. And i think rudy will pay a price. But that was rudys choice. Now, come to mention, it i think its time for the january issue of fall from grace to arrive at newsstands now. Both of our guests thankfully have agreed to stay with us over a break. When we come back, waiting to see what happens to the republican who went up against trump today. By the way, just for the information, mr. Chairman, this is the coldest hearing room in the world. And also for those of you who are worried about im uncomfortable, upset, im happy but this chair is terrible. I mean, it is amazing. But mr. Turley, go ahead. Thats about how things went today. Republican congressman doug collins of georgia has been one of trumps staunchest impeachment defenders. And he may have had the highest word count in todays hearing soup to nuts. So its no surprise that he was the favorite among trumps allies to fill georgia senator Johnny Isaksons seat when the senator steps down at the end of the year. The Washington Post reports, trump has privately told Georgia Governor Brian Kemp that he favors collins for the seat. But kemp had other plans, instead appointing businesswoman and longtime gop donor Kelly Loeffler. As politico put it today, the new georgia senator is about to step into a gop firestorm. Back for the double jeopardy round, Eugene Robinson and mike murphy. Mike, what is the back story here . I have to say guys like hannity have been lobbying for collins, talking to the president right through the Television Camera on fox news to name collins. He did not. Whats the back story . What do we need to know . Well, im buying popcorn for this one because its really good. So youve got brian kemp, the new governor, who was elected as kind of a trumpian knuckle dragger but once hes in office hes proving to be a pretty astute politician. Georgias changing in the demographics. Its becoming a little bit more reachable for the democrats. Kemp had a tight race. So hes picked Kelly Loeffler from Metro Atlanta who looks like what the future of the Republican Party ought to be if it wants to win. But trump has made it clear he prefers doug collins, whos basically our shag carpet. He represents north georgia, not where a lot of voters are, the carpet belt up there by dalton on the tennessee line. So now kemp has done what very few republicans have, which is told the president , hey, i run georgia, take a hike. And of course for the president hes going to be on the macron list. Both on the primary in november along with a democrat. Its an open primary situation. And then a runoff after the election with Kelly Loeffler and congressman doug collins should he run as the trump proxy. Kemp has a dp grip on that primary too. It will be an epic fight and, again, rare to see a trumpian governor like kemp whos been an ally take on the president and frankly tell him hell, no. And, Eugene Robinson, its not like kemp is taking a flyer on a liberal. This is a antichoice, pro gun rights young woman who plans to spend, what, 20 million to defend her new senate seat and may be doing in the reverse psychology way Mitch Mcconnell a favor. Well, yeah. She swears too that she is a supporter of President Trump and there will be no problem on that score. But i think mike is right. I think this is absolutely a reflection of the fact that this aint your fathers or your grandfathers georgia. Its a very different place now. You know, arguably the most popular politician there these days is stacey abrams. Whos nothing like doug collins. This is actually a bold act of defiance by a Republican Office holder anywhere in this country toward President Trump. And one wonders if it is a sort of little dose of reality that penetrating the sort of trumpian mystique that the country is different out there and its not all about trump. And mike murphy, let me ask you about an enigma. A guy who likes to turn up the mayberry meter when he can, likes to be seen as a country lawyer. Problem is we know he was educated at oxford and not the one in mississippi. And that is senator john, no relation, kennedy of louisiana, who is straight up appropriating not just russian talking points but putin talking points. Whats going on here . Well, on hax on tap with axelrod i accused him of stealing kenny delmars old act, which is an arcane showbiz reference, but here was the original foghorn leghorn character. Used to be a democrat, by the way. Used to be a liberal democrat. And now hes whatever he is. And i think its just plain base republican politics and entering the apparently big contest in the Republican Party in parts of the senate to suck up to the president. Its intellectually incredibly dishonest. Hes what lenin used to call, at least in this debate, a useful idiot. And i think its shameful. Gentlemen, on that note, mike, you brought a lot of good material tonight. You had eugene and i rolling in the aisles. To mike murphy, to gene robinson, two friends of ours, thank you both for coming on after another long day. Coming up for us, the coauthor of the book Mitch Mcconnell says hes reading to refresh his memory on impeachments weve known and not so much loved, will join us when we come right back. Impeachments have to be based on proof, not presumptions. Thats the problem when you move toward impeachment on this abbreviated schedule that has not been explained to me. Why you want to set the record for the fastest impeachment. Fast is not good for impeachment. Narrow fast impeachments have failed. Peter baker of the New York Times, who cowrote a book on impeachment with our next guest, pointed out today the following. Turley keeps saying this would be a record fast impeachment, but it really depends on how you count it. In the clinton case the house voted to impeach him 72 days after it authorized an inquiry. It has now been 71 days since pelosi opened the inquiry into trump. Joining us now, Pulitzer Prize winner and president ial historian and author jon meacham who happens to be one of the coauthors of impeachment an american history. Along with one of his many, many other titles. John, i hold the book in my hand. Reminded how small the book is and how it must have been at least an hour of your time. What do you hope, having heard that Mitch Mcconnell is reading this book, beyond hoping hes reading your portion of the book what do you hope hes reading and absorbing as one of the lessons here . I hope senator mcconnell, who i appreciate hes reading it and mentioned it, i hope that hes taking away the lesson that i would hope the rest of the senate and the rest of the country would too, which is that george mason was right. George mason of virginia, dunston hall up in fairfax. And he said when they were debating impeachment, he said, shall any man be above justice . It was quoted today in the hearing. And masons answer to that, his own rhetorical question, was much less the man who has the capacity to commit the most extensive injustice. That man cannot be above justice. Its a look at the pitfalls and the perils of impeachment. No impeachment, actually, has ever worked if you think of it in the sense of working as removing a president through the exact apparatus that was developed, in philadelphia. Nixon was frightened off in many ways. But thats really not the test it seems to me. I think a lot of what we heard today was this question about if we agree on the facts, and i think were in a better place today, than at least i thought we would be two, three, four weeks ago in terms of the republicans are arguing everything they possibly can. Arguing about the fact of the call and that sort of thing. So there is more of a commonly accepted set of facts here. What they want to do about it is radically different. But what they want to do about it is their constitutional duty, and James Madison and the same debates in philadelphia talked about the president as the truly National Officer, the one who would rise above sectional jealousies. And if that is what we want the president to be, if we want a truly National Officer who will represent all the people and not simply the people who sent him there and who may have helped him get, there then we need to follow through with this constitutional process. Jon, did our founders have a good day . Were they soup to nuts, were they represented well in the public sphere today . I did think so. I thought it was an intelligent and learned conversation. I loved the cooked turkey, loved the anachronistic about what would they say if they were here, which were not allowed to do, but we all like to play that game and think about it. You know, history in many ways is a conversation with the past informed by the present about what we should do in the future. Thats not all it is, but that is one function, one part of the utility of history is to mine it for lessons and historys not a gps system. You cant type in exactly what you want and it tells you exactly where to go. But it is a diagnostic guide. There are certain symptoms that recur, treatments, operations that prove efficacious. Its no mistake i think that in the 18th century, so much of the language about politics was in the vernacular of health. We talked about the body politic. We talked about corruption. Corruption then didnt mean graft, it meant disease so that a violation of the public trust was so important that it was as if you were afflicted with something. And i think that that significance, the gravity with which the founders for all their faults took their task, i think that was appropriately represented today. Jon, the 30 seconds we have left, how will we know if theyre on the right timeline or if the House Democrats are rushing this . You know, peter baker, your dont cross him on any detail about bill clinton. Just dont do it. Even president clinton should probably call him and check things at this point. You know, moving quickly in this climate i can see the argument that perhaps in the abstract you wouldnt want to rush something, but i was compelled by the argument that this is to some extent a prophylactic process there is an election coming up. The president has shown a capacity to want to undermine the integrity of that election and thats a real consideration. This is a source material. Its great that two friends of this broadcast are among the four authors who contributed to this book, jon meacham one of them. Thank you so much for joining us tonight. And coming up for us, an attempt to answer what many people see as one of the enduring mysteries of the trump era. Health markets compares your current plan with thousands of options nationwide from National Insurance companies. Dont miss the deadline. There are only days remaining in open enrollment. Funny thing about Health Insurance, you dont think about how much you need it until you need it. Hes not going to be okay. With so many changes to Health Insurance plans, are you still sure you have the right fit . Having the wrong fit can cost you thousands. New plans are available that can save you money. Thats why i love healthmarkets, your Insurance Marketplace. They guarantee you wont find a lower price anywhere for the plans they offer. 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The Healthmarkets Fitscore makes it easy to find the right plan for you. Having helped enroll people in millions of policies with an a Customer Satisfaction rating, you can trust healthmarkets. For this free service, go to healthmarkets. Com or call right now. Your Insurance Market place, healthmarkets. Call healthmarkets before the december 15th enrollment deadline to see if you qualify for 0 premiums. Call the number on your screen now. Last thing before we go tonight is a question that has been raised on this before, and the question is what happened to lindsey graham. And here is what happened when howard stern posed that question to Hillary Clinton on the howard stern show this morning. Lindsey was good company. He was funny. He was selfdeprecating. He also believed in Climate Change back in those days. Really . Yes. Has he sold his soul to the devil . I dont know the answer to that. I think thats a fair question, however. And what i dont understand is how he went from being the friend and the real confidante of the maverick, john mccain, who i didnt agree with politically, but i found him to be a man of integrity, and now, you know, i dont know whats happened to lindsey graham. Ill be honest with you. I havent talked to him in a long time. He wrote you know how Time Magazine has the top 100 people and all that. One year, back a couple of years ago when i was in it, he wrote the tribute to me. My god. And now its like he had a brain snatch, you know. For good measure, she then talked what it was like attending Donald Trumps inaugural address. Bill and i are sitting with george and laura bush, and then he started on that speech which was so bizarre, and thats when i got really worried. That carnage in the street and the dark dystopian vision, i was sitting there like wow, couldnt believe it. And george w. Bush says to me, well that was some weird i thought we were going to bleep that. Thank you for being here with us. Good night from our nbc news headquarters here in new york. It was a marathon day on capitol hill as four legal scholars testified before the committee on the impeachment probe. The fourth witness argued that the impeachment probe was being rushed. Plus, after being called two faced by President Trump, canadian Prime MinisterJustin Trudeau admits that he and other World Leaders were talking about trump on a moment caught on camera inside buckingham palace. Joe biden is pouncing on th world is laughing at the