Well, good evening once again from our nbc news headquarters here in new york. And what a back to work monday this has been. Its a lot. The breaking news started late today and really has not stopped as we bring to a close day 984 of the Trump Administration. It turns out a phone call by the president had the power to do what the russia investigation and the Mueller Report failed to do. And that is to launch an official impeachment inquiry. A phone call. And the breaking news we are covering tonight has to do with that phone call between donald trump and the president of ukraine. When trump pushed the ukrainian president zelensky to do him a favor and look into his likely democratic rival joe biden. Well, for starters the wall street journal reports, and nbc news has since confirmed, that secretary of state mike pompeo was on that call. He was among the officials listening in on the call of july 25, something not previously reported. The journal writes, the revelation, quote, ties the state department more closely to the house impeachment inquiry. Just last week pompeo was evasive when he was asked what he knew about that conversation. The wall street journal is reporting that President Trump pressed the president of ukraine eight times to work with Rudy Guiliani to investigate joe bidens son. What do you know about those conversations . So you just gave me a report about a whistleblower complaint, none of which ive seen. Are you confident that none of your staff that you or none of your staff did anything improper in this whole situation . To the best of my knowledge. From what ive seen so far, each of the actions that were undertaken by state Department Officials was entirely appropriate. Also today the president s globe trotting personal lawyer Rudy Guiliani received a subpoena from the house intelligence, oversight, and Foreign Affairs committee. Guiliani has been at the center of efforts to get ukraine to investigate joe bidens family and hes mentioned in the whistleblowers complaint multiple times. Democrats are asking for guiliani documents including text messages, phone records, other communications, and they want them by october 15th. Tonight guiliani tells nbc news he hasnt decided whether he is going to comply, and in fact just a short time ago giuliani was asked if he would ever agree to testify before congress. Im weighing the alternatives. Ill get all my evidence together. Ill get my charts. I dont know if they let me use videotapes and taperecordings that i have, if they let me get some of the evidence that i gathered i gathered all this evidence before the Mueller Probe ended. So it was clearly under my responsibility as the lawyer for the president of the United States. The New York Times reports that trump pushed the australian Prime Minister during another recent phone call to help his attorney general, bill barr, gather information on the origins of the Mueller Investigation into him. Nbc news has also confirmed this story although a Justice Department official calls trumps request merely an ask. Times reporter katie benner is among the authors of this story. Shell join us in just a moment. She along with her colleague write, quote, the white house curbed access to a transcript of the call, which the president made at mr. Barrs request, to a small group of aides. Trump was in effect asking the Australian Government to investigate itself. Fbi counterintelligence investigators began examining any trump ties to russias 2016 election interference after australian officials told the bureau that russian intermediaries had made overtures to trump advisers about releasing politically damaging information about hillary clinton. Then tonight came this. The Washington Post reporting that attorney general barr has been Holding Meetings overseas with foreign officials, asking them to help in trumps effort to investigate the russia investigation. Big weekend for the president on twitter, mostly airing his grievances about the democrats impeachment effort, insisting, quote, i deserve to meet my accuser, the socalled whistleblower, and, i want schiff questioned at the highest level for fraud and treason. Then last night, he pushed out a quote from a guest on fox news. If the democrats are successful in removing the president from office, which they will never be, it will cause a civil warlike fracture in this nation from which our country will never heal. This afternoon, trump continued to hammer the whistleblower and chairman schiff. Mr. President , do you now know who the whistleblower is, sir . Well, were trying to find out about a whistleblower. When you have a whistleblower that reports things that were incorrect the call was perfect. When the whistleblower reported it, he made it sound terrible. And then you had adam schiff who, even worse, made up my words, which i think is just a horrible ive never even seen a thing like that. Adam schiff, representative, congressman, made up what i said. That prompted this response from the whistleblowers attorney, and we quote. The Intel Community whistleblower is entitled to anonymity. Law and policy support this, and the individual is not to be retaliated against. Doing so is a violation of federal law. We have a lot to get through, and four of our very best returning veterans to help us do that. Philip rucker, pulitzer prizewinning White House Bureau chief for the Washington Post. The aforementioned katie benner, Justice Department reporter for the New York Times. Berit berger, a former assistant u. S. Attorney with both the Eastern District of new york and, for good measure, the Southern District of new york. And clint watts, former fbi special agent, a distinguished Research Fellow at the Foreign Policy research institute, the author of messing with the enemy surviving in a social media world of hackers, terrorists, russians and fake news. Good evening to you all. Katie, id like to begin with you and your reporting. What this linked the attorney general to. I thought there was a u. S. Attorney from the state of connecticut who had been appointed. In effect, the investigator of the investigators, going back to the origins of the Mueller Investigation. How deep into this investigation is the attorney general himself . I think what weve seen with our reporting and that great Washington Post report is that the attorney general is not only extremely interested in this review, but that he is essentially quarterbacking it. Youre right, he did ask john durham, the u. S. Attorney in connecticut, to oversee it. But truly it is bill barr who was there every step of the way. The Justice Department would argue that he needs to be in part because of this review involves so many highlevel foreign officials, and its bill barr who would appropriately try to get their cooperation. But also i think you could argue that hes truly interested in this. You know, he said before Congress Earlier this spring that he believes that spying did occur on the campaign. He wants to know whether or not it was unlawful, and he himself personally wants to get to the bottom of this. Phil rucker, lets talk about our secretary of state, mr. Pompeo. Yeah. And and it probably bears repeating. This is not a flybynight individual, a guy who graduated number one in his class at west point and went to harvard law school. He knows from what is proper, and he knows better for lack of a better phrase. How damaging is this news he was on that call . Well, brian, its a really surprising revelation today that he was on that call, and i think it shows a few things. And in terms of damaging, by the way, its very problematic for secretary pompeo himself because he now becomes ensnared in this impeachment investigation. But what it tells us about the administration is that what trump was doing with ukraine was supervised in a way by the secretary of state and that the secretary of state did not apparently register any alarm about it and, in fact, was questioned as you showed in the opening of the show by reporters did did not seem to offer the full truth in his answers. You might even say he was covering something up in his answers. And were learning more and more about the role of the state department in this whole ukraine episode because Rudy Giuliani is talking about how hes been coordinating some of his work with ukraine, his conversations with ukraine through the state department, and it begs the question of whether the state department, which is supposed to be conducting Foreign Policy on behalf of the nation, is instead focused on the president s sort of personal political interests and doing the president s bidding when it comes to the investigation of joe biden that trump has so wanted. Clint, this was another good day for journalism and for journalists. When you read this portrait of our attorney general talking with intel folks overseas about intel folks on the home team, thats not a great look, is it . If you want to be an isolated country with no allies and not see whats coming, this is the way to handle your business. How confusing would it be for any other country around the world right now to have an attorney general come to you when youre normally dealing with the cia or envoys or the dni in terms of international intelligence, in terms of sharing information, it has to be baffling to them. And there is a complete erosion of trust whether its australia weve talked about today, ukraine, all of our five eyes partners, germany, the uk. They all maybe helped or supplied information during the Mueller Report and the Mueller Investigation. What is the purpose of this . And what really is shocking is the government seems to be run by basically three people pompeo, barr, and giuliani, who i cant figure out is even part of the government or not. Without portfolio. Without portfolio. So its very confusing, i think, to anybody thats ever interacted with the u. S. Government before from overseas to understand who is in charge, who theyre supposed to listen to. Remember on the ground we have state department folks. We have department of defense. We have intel agencies. Weve got defense and state contractors, development aid. They all are in different reporting channels and it seems as if no one really knows what the other part of this government is doing and why the attorney general isnt back home enforcing the laws, instead running around the world coordinating intelligence activities or investigating intelligence activities. Berit berger, why is it not witness intimidation to hear the president talk about the whistleblower . And remind the folks watching tonight the protections whistleblowers have under the law. Yeah. I mean i think it actually is witness intimidation. I mean that is the whole reason that we have these type of whistleblower protections, because it takes a tremendous amount of courage to come forward to report some sort of misconduct or criminality, but it also takes a lot of faith. It takes a lot of faith in the system, that you will have laws that will protect you, that you wont be retaliated against, that you wont have the president of the United States actively trying to reveal who you are. If you think about it, given the sort of vitriol that the president has expressed so publicly about what the whistleblower has done, if this person is outed by the administration, this person would certainly have a bounty on their head. So i think we cant overstate sort of the danger of the president making these statements, trying to out this person. Phil rucker, the president seems preoccupied with the whistleblower and chairman schiff among other things. Yeah. Is this, again, the absence of an overarching strategy . Well, the overarching strategy at the moment, brian, is whatever President Trump is thinking in a given hour. There does not seem to be a grand strategy either from a legal perspective or a Public Relations perspective to get him out of this hole and to protect the presidency. So what hes doing and we saw this throughout the weekend is hes lashing out. Hes trying to discredit the whistleblower. Hes trying to discredit chairman schiff. Its notable, by the way, that hes going after schiff much more intensively much more than he is going after House Speaker nancy pelosi, who is the one last tuesday who launched these impeachment proceedings. Theres a calculation in the white house that schiff is a more vulnerable target. But the other thing trump is trying to do is project this narrative that he is somehow being unfairly persecuted, that hes the greatest victim in the history of victims. No president s been treated this way throughout American History as he claims on twitter, and he feels this sense of selfpity that hes broadcasting to the world, and that is significant, and its different. Weve not seen that before with other president s who have been staring down impeachment. Katie benner, can you remind our viewers of the kinds of professionals inside doj forgive me, i have this respiratory thing that half of new york seems to have. Excuse me. The kinds of professionals who reside inside doj who would take a dim view of Rudy Giulianis travels as a de facto kind of hovering attorney general or the actual attorney generals travels on behalf of his boss. Sure. Taking giuliani first, i think that both professionals inside of the Justice Department and the state department would take not only a dim view of what Rudy Giuliani has done, but they would say that it actively hurts them, and it makes it harder for them to do their jobs because they also have to interface with foreign leaders, foreign officials and other Law Enforcement people. And not knowing what Rudy Giuliani is saying makes it very difficult for them to have credibility and also they can get caught flatfooted. With regard to barr its very interesting because the attorney general is trying very hard to make the case that everything he is doing is within the letter of the law, and that he is doing it for a valid reason. He wants to know if people acted unlawfully in 2016. And while he makes that claim, its interesting im starting to hear more and more from career professionals inside of the Justice Department that they dont understand why so much time and energy is being devoted to a review for which we already have one other investigations looking at. We have an Inspector General investigation that should be completed soon, we hope, that should give us some insight into what happened in 2016. Then of course we have the Mueller Report which was a very full account of what happened in 2016. I think people are, one, confused, and, two, very surprised to see the attorney general taking such a Firm Interest and being so active in it. Clint watts, you are a u. S. Military Academy Graduate and a former fed and a patriot. So when the president says what he said casually invoking a civil war in the United States, how does that strike you . I thought it was america first, and it was supposed to be about all americans. And it really seems to be only about certain americans. Its bizarre to me that the president , whose job as the commander in chief is also the unifier in chief of the country. Hes supposed to set out a vision for the country, help mobilize, and do the best for as Many Americans as possible. That is the inverse of what i was taught is leadership when i went to west point, whether it was serving in the army, the fbi, or other roles in government, i dont understand why he attacks people of his own executive branch. Someone needs to remind him that the fbi is part of his org. The cia is part of his o. The way to lead them is not by tearing them apart, by not going after fbi agents for doing their job or going after intel officials for doing their job. Instead, give them a vision of what you want them to achieve and how you want to achieve it. Ive never heard that in the 2 1 2 years that President Trump has been in charge of this country. Berit berger, do you think Rudy Giuliani is a walking gold mine of information . Now tonight hes just fluttering out the notion that he may have recordings or video, cinematographer style that we didnt know about. But also what is the consequence if he says no to cooperating . Yeah. I mean you can see why congress started with him. Absolutely as you said, he is this treasure trove of information and evidence. So many of the former prosecutors were like, so get the phone, subpoena the phone. But to his comments about hes weighing his options with respect to this, we keep saying this, but subpoenas arent voluntary. These are compulsory, and he may have some, you know, privilege issues that he wants to float around. I dont know how effective those are going to be. You know, just having a lawyer involved in a conversation doesnt necessarily make a communication privileged, right . I mean every conversation that you and i have had is not privileged. Well, theyve been watching the whole time. Exactly. So its not confidential. Its not seeking legal advice. I think theres going to be a lot of questions raised about what was giulianis role with respect to the president. What type of legal advice was the president seeking . What was the nature of their conversation . If this is really the president directing giuliani to take certain actions on his behalf, im not sure thats going to qualify as sort of typical legal advice that would potentially protect it from having to be disclosed to congress. So i dont know that hes going to have a successful defense against having to comply with the subpoena, which does not mean he wont try. As we said at the outset of tonight, its a lot. We are much obliged to our front four for helping us get through it all. Coming up, theres been a big change just in the past few days. It has to do with Public Opinion on the topic of impeachment. And later, the man who says he knew it was a bad idea before trump even got on the phone with the ukrainian president. Oh, and by the way, he doesnt work for our president anymore. The 11th hour just Getting Started on this monday night. Sometimes your small screen is your big screen. And with the Xfinity Stream app, which is free with your service, you can take a spin through on demand shows, or stream live tv. Download your dvrd shows and movies on the fly. Even record from right where you are. Keep what you watch with you. Download the Xfinity Stream app today and get ready for Xfinity Stream tv week. Watch shows like south park and the walking dead october 7th through 13th. This week House Democrats plan to get depositions from key state Department Officials mentioned in that whistleblower complaint. Wednesday theyll hear from a former u. S. Ambassador to ukraine who was ousted from her post. Thursday the exspecial envoy kurt volker will be questioned. Friday is the deadline for pompeo to respond to a subpoena. And it is also when the House Intel Committee will hear from Intel CommunityInspector GeneralMichael Atkinson about the handling of the whistleblowers complaint. As we said, its a lot. The senate is watching to see what happens. No surprise. Today majority leader mcconnell was asked how he will respond if the house votes to impeach the president. If the house does go down that path, and well follow the senate rules. I would have no choice but to take it up. Still with us weve asked our print colleagues Philip Rucker and katie benner to hang around for one more round of questioning. Phil, lets talk about the democrats in the house. Every minute were watching and listening to schiff, not nadler who happens to chair the judiciary committee. Famously when that committee had their moment of moral high ground snubbed by the attorney general they answered with an empty chair for emphasis and a bucket of chicken, which kind of ruined the moment. Do you think there is some strategy behind pelosis assignment . There seems to be, brian. Part of the reason for the assignment is that this issue of the ukraine call and the whistleblower complaint seems to fall squarely in the lap of the House Intelligence Committee so it is only natural therefore that chairman schiff would be taking the lead on this. But i think pelosi is also expressing real confidence in chairman schiff to be able to handle this delicately and as she put it expeditiously. One of the things thats been so breathtaking in the last week is the speed with which democrats have gotten these proceedings off the ground and planned these events of the week that you just laid out. This is moving very fast and i think it is surprising some people who are watching because congress as you know does not usually move this fast. Katie, were not used to our attorney general doing that much overseas travel. Its generally considered a domestic job. This a. G. Is back from the uk and italy, no comment on the travels. I guess my question is because of your reporting and what else is out there, are we going to now view all of his actions, travels, and movements through this prism of how much of it is devoted to this investigation . Yeah. I think even if we werent aware of his overseas travels because he is taking such a hand in this investigation, because he has already said he believes that spying was conducted against the Trump Campaign and he has questions about whether or not it was done incorrectly, i think it would be impossible to not view the attorney general through the lens of this investigation or this, sorry, as they would put it review into why the Intelligence Community chose to look into the Trump Campaign. One of the issues for the Justice Department and for bill barr is that these two things, this review that john durham is doing, and the work that Rudy Guiliani has been doing especially his attempts to get dirt on, dirt as he would put it on joe bidens son hunter biden these things have become conflated in the president s mind which is what we see in the ukraine phone call. So for the Justice Department they are going to have to distance themselves from that in order to continue to say what they are doing is legitimate. Of course for the democrats who phil says very correctly are moving extremely fast, they are going to grab at anything they can use to ask more questions and gather more information. It is inevitable they start to look at the attorney general. As i said, another proud day for journalism and journalists. Two of the best hanging out with us tonight. Katie benner, phil rucker, thank you so much for taking our questions. Coming up, all the president s men. A deeper look at who was reportedly listening to the call with the ukrainian president and who wasnt when we come back. Lets talk about that man. Nbc news is reporting john bolton the former National Security adviser now out of a job, that john bolton, knew it was a bad idea even before trump called the new president of ukraine. This report reads in part, quote, three officials said bolton argued against trump calling ukrainian president zelensky on july 25 because he was concerned the president wasnt coordinating with advisers on what to say and might air personal grievances. Now there is growing and aunls and understandable fear bolton and his allies out in the world talking might inflict damage on this president after theyve exited. Quote, they know where a lot of the bodies are buried, one person close to the white house said. Officials also said bolton was among senior officials including mike pence who did not listen in on the call. For more, i am joined by the aforementioned carole lee an nbc news correspondent. Why did bolton know so well to oppose the call and is what were seeing here kind of that conditional courage where former trump people speak out a little bit about the Trump Administration in the rear view mirror . Well, what we know about what was happening at that time, which ambassador bolton would have been keenly aware of was that there was this effort by the president to hold up the military aid for ukraine and there was concern among people in the white house and elsewhere that that was somehow the president was tying that to what he wanted the Ukrainian Government to do in terms of investigating the former Vice President joe biden and his son hunter. So bolton would have been aware of that obviously. And so, you know, you cant separate that from the fact that he was concerned about the president making this call. And so now, you know, weve seen today weve learned things that weve learned something new about each of these individuals whether its john bolton or Rudy Guiliani or bill barr or mike pompeo. When you look at the four of them only one of them is no longer in the government. And that has a lot of people worried around the president because john bolton was someone who left on very contentious terms and he is well known in washington as somebody who likes a good fight and doesnt really back down and hes already shown that hes willing to speak out and confront and disagree with the president and be a little more combative than other top National Security officials who have left the white house. You know, in terms of whether this is because hes gone a little bit of that for sure but also he was already talking, you know, out of disagreeing with President Trump while in office. Sometimes publicly. That is part of the reason their relationship deteriorated so much. Any names come to mind who else might have cause tonight to be nervous about being sucked into this whole larger case . I think there are a number of officials there are two different strands of people being nervous. There are people who are nervous about being sucked into this and having to lawyer up and face potential subpoenas certainly in the state department and elsewhere and then there are people who theres obviously white house officials who told the whistleblower about certain sequences of events so there are people worried because the president is out there tarnishing the reputation and putting potentially the whistleblower in danger so there is a real concern, a real search for who is talking, what are they saying, and that has a lot of people very nervous and making it somewhat difficult to try to get people to talk to. As they call it in washington, d. C. , monday. Carol lee, thank you so much for coming on tonight. Sure thing. Thanks, brian. Thank you for talking about your story. We will continue to look for your byline as we always do. Coming up, our next guest says donald trump cant win reelection but the democrats sure can lose it. So over the weekend some of the president s republican allies in congress, there are many, wasted no time defending him as pressure builds now over this impeachment inquiry. I think this whole thing is a sham. I cant believe were talking about impeaching the president based on an accusation based on hearsay. Look, if democrats want to impeach because Rudy Guiliani talked with a couple ukrainians good luck with that. What do you make of this exchange . President zelensky says we are almost ready to buy more from the United States for defense purposes and President Trump replies, i would like you to do us a favor, though. You just added another word. No. Its in the transcript. He said id like you to do a favor though . Yes. Its in the white house transcript. Thats kind of how that went. With us tonight is rick wilson longtime florida man longtime republican strategist soon following up on his first book everything trump touches dies with a new work running against the devil which is due out in early 2020. It is a thrill to have you as always. Thank you, sir. So tonight i am reminded, sean spicer danced to saturday night fever on dancing with the stars and Sebastian Gorka is on board a u. S. Government plane with our u. S. Secretary of state going to europe. We saw that selection of trump allies. There is a whole population of people in washington who think this might be ball game here. There are a lot of very nervous folks right now. Theyre thinking theyve tried to hide in the tall grass for a long time. They play the maga game when they have to and quietly whisper to reporters i am really concerned. My brow is furrowed. Im deeply troubled. They understand there is a point where you cant just keep pretending. We are rapidly reaching the point where you cant just keep pretending. What was bill barr doing in italy . Why are they making these phone calls to australia . We want more of the details about ukraine. I know gorka is probably in europe pitching Fish Oil Tablets or whatever he does for a living now but these guys are all of a piece, this flotsam around trump. So many of them are involved in this and i hope theyre tonight pondering second mortgages so they can lawyer up. Can you imagine what it feels like for the aussies . As a lover and appreciator of history there we were side by side on the beaches of normandy. What do we want from them now . A little information. So help us blackmail a competitor in a political election in the u. S. In trying to extort foreign powers by using the awesome majesty of the president s office and the powers of the United States government, trying to extort it is just the lowest level thug behavior. I have a dramatic reading from the twitter account of Jonathan Martin with the New York Times. It is about politics and your Political Party the squeeze is on republicans left in high income, congressional districts and states. Here is college plus whites. I just love how it instancely reduces entire groups of americans. 46 already for impeach and remove. 52 for the inquiry. 57 believe trump thinks he is above the law. Just 1 fewer thinks he abuses the power of his office. 51 believe he has committed crimes as president. You start thinking while the republicans should be very nervous. Then i look at rick wilson. Donald trump cant win reelection but the democrats can certainly lose it. Its an old problem. Explain. The democrats have a great gift for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Unless they have generational candidates who are who have phenomenal skills, they had two in our lifetime, barack obama and bill clinton, naturally gifted political figures. They understand how to connect with people. They have charisma for days. None of the current field reaches that level of performance. And i think the danger that ive seen coming at the Democratic Party for a long time now is a lot of them still believe this is going to be a referendum about policy. This election is a referendum as all president ial reelections are about trump. All the referendum thought in this election is going to be trump or not trump. X future or y future . If the future you want is trump kicking you in the face to all eternity elect donald trump. If you want to argue policy you are reelecting donald trump. Trump hands them right now the opportunity to go after him as a man who is corrupt, who is ineffective, and who has led this country into a place where the reputation of our president is as an extortionist and mercenary. When our president tosses out a reference to a civil war right. I think that is, again, this is a way to make a referendum on this man. What kind of president in this country, you know, other than the guy unless he has Jefferson Davis fantasies, wants to go out and have the reputation be retweeting and praising somebody who is threatening a civil war. If he doesnt get to operate above the law, if he doesnt get to be unaccountable in every way, and this is the kind of thing that trump has normalized in our country and it is a great danger. Jeff flake, consensus, hall of fame, furrowed brow hall of fame member, concerned face hall of fame member, says to his fellow republicans, you know, theres still time to save your souls. Others remember flake as the guy who saved kavanaugh right before skipping town. Not the best guy to make that argument . Look, i would prefer and there will be a tremendous first mover advantage for some seated member of the u. S. Senate right now, to make that point and to recognize that donald trump will drag every single one of them under and they will all drown and die politically if they dont start breaking away. This is the problem that 1973 and 74 taught us. In 1973 the republicans were lock step on nixon. If you go back it was all its a media conspiracy against the president. Its liberal leaks against the president. Well, in 1974 the voters of the United States decided that 49 republicans needed to go home. Forever. And that eight members of the Republican Senate needed to go home forever. This is a political consequence of a corrupt president who abuses power. Right now donald trump, and the thing about nixon, nixon was not about money. Nixon was not about personal gain. Nixon was in the game because that was his character. Trump is venal. He wants political power so he can continue to enhitch himself and his family. This as category even above Richard Nixon and that takes a lot of doing. Rick wilson, thank you so much. Always a pleasure to have you on our broadcast. Yes, sir. Coming up, our next guest literally wrote the book on leadership in Turbulent Times. To review nancy pelosi said no to impeachment for months. The Mueller Report wasnt enough to move the needle but now the comparatively simple story of what our president said over the phone to a foreign leader has suddenly changed everything. Pelosi and the house moving forward on this idea, and the needle is moving on american opinion. The new quinnipiac poll shows the country is now evenly split on this issue but look at how much this has moved since september 25th. The gap has closed on whether trump should be impeached and removed from office. With us tonight is Doris Goodwin president ial historian and author. She has written best sellers about both roosevelts, the kennedys, lbj, lincoln to name a few. Her latest work is leadership in Turbulent Times a New York Times best seller which conveniently comes out tomorrow in paperback removing any excuse not to own it and read it. Welcome back. Great to have you. Very glad to be here. When in your memory was the last president who called for the arrest and questioning toward a charge of treason of a sitting member of congress, more than that a Committee Chair . Thankfully i cannot remember when the last time was. I mean, the words that are thrown around, this is really important right now as we go through this impeachment process. We have to define what treason is. We have to define the rule of law. What is abuse of power. What is violating the office. Either side cant throw words around without explaining it. That is what the country needs so public sentiment can coalesce if they think impeachment is necessary to create a consensus. So the country will not have a civil war fracture like the president predicted. Thats what i was going to ask about next. You wrote with such beauty and clarity about the civil war. Can you believe that our president has casually mentioned that among other topics over the weekend . When you think about what that civil war meant to this country splitting apart literally, more than 600,000 soldiers dying because the north and south could not deal with slavery in the same way and that somebody might predict if we go ahead with the impeachment there might be a civil war fracture in the country . I mean, it is the last thing you want from a president who is going to hopefully be the president of all the people to be able to heal the country. At least during the nixon impeachment by the end of it when gerald ford stood up and said our Long National nightmare is over. We are a government of laws not a government of men. There was a healing process because of the way it was dealt with. We have to hope somehow by the end of this there is a consensus if the impeachment goes through that it was the right thing to do. Following that very crisis your fellow author Carl Bernstein has always said republicans were the heroes of watergate. Do you see it possible the same dynamic could emerge in our time . I think the question right now when you think about the nixon impeachment was that at the beginning only 19 thought he should be impeached and then gradually that number increased as events over shadowed what was happening . At first nixon was saying i had nothing to do with it. I dont know the plumbers. Then you finally have the events. You have the john dean testimony. You have the people inside the administration being sent as we know with haldeman and erlichman and mitchell into indictments. Then you have of course the tapes. I mean, the tapes were the smoking gun. By that time republicans had to respond to events so the question will be how will these hearings educate the country . How will they make the country understand if this person is above the law what that means . Doris Kearns Goodwin has agreed to stay with us over this break. A big question for her on the other side of this break when we come back. The historian doris Kearns Goodwin has been kind enough to wait around and i lied. I have at least two more questions for you. The qualities in this book which i sincerely hope everyone reads of president ial leadership, whats your answer when youre asked about trumps brand of president ial leadership . Well, just look at the qualities that my four guys that i studied, lincoln, the two roosevelts, and lbj on civil rights, they shared. Humility, empathy, resilience, the ability to create a team around them that could question their assumptions and argue with them, the sense of ambition for self, being less than eventually the ambition for the world. I mean, those qualities are what we need in times of crisis. Always optimistic about america getting through in the sense that weve been through worse times before and somehow the citizens became active and we had the right leader in the right place at the right time. We had f. D. R. , teddy roosevelt, abraham lincoln, l. B. J. And civil rights. The worrisome thing right now is what we were just talking about which is we also had in those other times not in the civil war time, which we had a Partisan Press where you could have different facts and completely different discussions. We have now that kind of a Partisan Press where people are watching one Cable Network or another. Facts are not in agreement. Does that mean that there will be two different scenarios coming out of this impeachment hearing so that there is one set of facts and another and people dont agree in the end . That is why we need the kind of leadership that can somehow pull us together. Thats a subset of my next and final question for you. Can that be put back . Is that like cutting off the arm of a star fish . Does that regrow . More widely, what do you say when people ask, are we going to be okay . I say yes. It is going to require the kind of leader who emerges now who can somehow understand the country has to pull together and have some consensus about the rule of law. That is the central thing right now. Lincoln worried so much during his young youth, if that makes sense, right . People were forgetting the revolution. He said, every night mothers should be reading to their kids about the revolution, about the ideals. They should be in the spelling book, they should be in the primers. We have to remember the ideals for the country and what it stood for. If we can get back to that and have leaders who can get us back to that somehow well get through this. Social media is a problem. The divided media is a problem. There are lots of problems. Weve had we went through a depression. We went through world war ii. We went through the civil war. If we got through those as long as citizens are active and take part in this and educate themselves and the leadership educates them, well be okay. History shows it. Are we ranking social media, giving it its importance as a multiplier of our troubles the way you think it will be ranked by historians a hundred years in the future . To be sure, it is now. The question is whether or not social media can also manage technologically to bring people together and bring them to a common cause. Were not done with social media yet. We have to be able to figure out how to shape it. Right now it is shaping us. Imagine if lincoln had been looking down at his device instead of paying attention. Our thanks to our friend doris Kearns Goodwin. The book is leadership in Turbulent Times and, yes, these are. And that is our broadcast. Tonight on all in mr. President , on Rudy Giuliani, why do you think its appropriate for your personal attorney to get involved in government business . Well, youd have to ask rudy. Democrats subpoena the president s lawyer. Shut up shut up. New reports that mike pompeo was listening in on the phone call with ukraine. Ill the white house will have to explain. And new reporting that the president asked australias Prime Minister to help investigate the origin of the Mueller Probe. Australia is a fantastic country. Tonight as the scandal grows, the Trump Defense flails. And President Trump replies, i would like us to do you a favor though