Transcripts For MSNBCW MTP Daily 20201008

This year earlier this year, prosecutors say the fbi became aware of a group of individuals discussing the violent overthrow of certain government. As the plot was developing to target michigans governor, the group sought help from a local Militia Group. The plans allegedly involving kidnapping the governor, among other violent activities. And as far as were aware, Law Enforcement officials have not linked this plot or the militia members allegedly tied with it with the antilockdown demonstrations by militia members we saw earlier in the year. Michigans attorney general tells nbc news that more people are going to be charged. Governor whitmer is going to address this case later today. And according to the Court Documents there does not seem to have been an imminent threat posed to her. For more, im joined by nbcs tom winter, our investigations correspondent, Barbara Mcquade and an nbc news legal analyst. So, tom, its interesting what we know and what we dont and, obviously, well wait for more of perhaps filling in some of these blanks, but i guess help us here, tom. What are some answers youre hoping that this press conference will provide that will fill in some of these blanks . First off, this was an arrest made on a criminal complaint. There was no indictment. Im not sure if thats because grand juries are not yet allowed in michigan so they werent able to bring this case before a grand jury if they felt they needed to act quickly because something about the group changed. Thats a question id like to have answers to. Were trying to scour for any social media or personal background are in the six individuals that have been charged. Caleb franks, Daniel Harris and brandon kaserda. Five of those from michigan. Were trying to comb through their background if theres an ideology here. They were upset with her they talk about her power. I cant give you the full quote from the complaint because id be fired. Theres a lot of profanity and expletives that are used. But basically they talk about they were upset with her restrictions tied to covid. They were upset they couldnt go to the gym, for instance. So it will be interesting to see, is there a broader ideology here . Are they part of a did they seek to become part of a militia . Were they right wing, left wing . What was the kind of underlying ideology, if we can glean that. Thats something i would like to get a better sense of from the press Conference Today and to see if there was any sort of outside interference. What types of media were they watching . What types of messaging were they getting perhaps from president ial candidates or the president himself . So those are all things that i think would be good details to get at this point. What you said there that it does appear to be lockdown related. That tells does that not say a lot there . I think it does. And it says a lot about what Law Enforcement is increasingly concerned about in this country, chuck, and that is that there are factors that have never really come together here around an election. Im thinking of a memo that i sent around and read last week from the new Jersey Office of Homeland Security and preparedness which i think says it perfectly which is weve never been in a situation before in modern times or in recent history where we have this tremendous Political Division in this country. We have an Economic Situation which is unprecedented really since the great depression. People are out of work. People are looking for money. People are looking for jobs. And on top of that, we have this Global Pandemic which is completely upended the lives of every Single Person in this country no matter what your economic backgrounds or means are. And a tremendous amount of disinformation. I mean, how many times have you talked about what we see on social media. All these factors are coming together in a potentially very extreme and violent way. Well, i have some good news. Im going to vamp here for a second. Im very happy we have Barbara Mcquade and Jim Cavanaugh with us, but my understanding is we are literally seconds away from this briefing. I was told in my ear, 18 seconds ago that we had 20 seconds to the briefing. So were going to go to that. Keep michigan safe. Law enforcement is always a team effort. And today im grateful to stand alongside four leading partners who work collaboratively and decisively to thwart a serious and credible threat to public safety. This effort would not have been possible without a unified front, including all levels of Law Enforcement focused on protecting the safety and wellbeing of our citizens. So today i am joined by u. S. Attorney for the Western District of michigan, andrew birch, u. S. Attorney for the Eastern District of michigan, mathieu schneider. Any moment now we will have the fbi assistant special agent in charge josh hoaxhurst and we have Michigan State Police Colonel joe gasper. The interagency effort represented here in tandem with my office culminated in several search warrants and arrests across the state including in the communities of grand rapids, heartland, luther, canton, orion township, waterford, belleville, milford, cadillac, shelbiville, plainwell, zealand, ovid, kalamazoo, charlotte, clarkston, Sterling Heights and shelby township. Our efforts uncovered elaborate plans to endanger the lives of Law Enforcement officers, government officials and the broader public. The multifront operation to apprehend the suspects in question was carefully coordinated and skillfully executed resulting very fortunately in no casualties. Now before we announce the preliminary charges, i want to thank the hundreds of Law Enforcement officers who worked across agencies and across state lines, and we are very grateful for their safety. With that, ill ask u. S. Attorney for the Western District of michigan, mr. Andrew birch, to tell you a little more about the effort. Good afternoon. Thank you, attorney general. Last night, the fbi and Michigan State Police Arrested six individuals charged in a federal complaint with conspiring to kidnap the governor of michigan, gretchen whitmer. According to the complaint unsealed this morning, adam fox, barry croft, ty garbin, caleb franks, Daniel Harris and brandon kaserta conspired to kidnap the governor from her Vacation Home in the Western District of michigan before the november election. Under federal law, each of these individuals faces a term of any number of years up to life in prison if convicted. Fox, garbin, franks, harris and caserta are residents of michigan. Croft is a resident of delaware. All of us standing here today want the public to know that federal and state Law Enforcement are committed to working together to make sure violent extremists never succeed with their plans, particularly when they target our duly elected leaders. The federal complaint in this case alleges that the fbi began an investigation earlier this year after becoming aware that through social media, that a group of individuals was discussing the violent overthrow of certain government and Law Enforcement components. Through confidential sources, undercover agents and clandestine recordings, Law Enforcement learned particularly individuals were planning to kidnap the governor and acting in furtherance of that plan. The alleged conspirators used Operational Security measures, including communicating by encrypted messaging platforms and used code words and phrases in an attempt to avoid detection by Law Enforcement. Among their activities, the members of this conspiracy on two occasions conducted coordinated surveillance on the governors Vacation Home. Fox and croft in particular, according to the complaint, discussed detsinating explosive devices to divert police from the area of the home. And fox even inspected the underside of a michigan highway bridge for places to seat an explosive. The complaint further alleges that fox purchased a taser for use in the kidnapping and that the Group Successfully detonated an improvised explosive device wrapped with shrapnel to test its antipersonnel capabilities. The fbi and state police executed arrests of several of the conspirators when they were meeting on the east side of the state to pool funds for explosives and exchange tactical gear. This investigation is ongoing. Agents of the Detroit Field Office of the fbi and other members of their joint Terrorism Task force, including the Michigan State police, are conducting this investigation. Agents in the Baltimore Field Office of the fbi, which covers delaware, have also assisted. My office, the u. S. Attorneys office for the Western District of michigan is prosecuting this federal case. U. S. Attorneys offices in the Eastern District of michigan and delaware are and have been assisting. And the state of michigan has brought related charges against other individuals. Of course, those charged with a crime still have rights that we respect. The allegations in the complaint are accusations, and the defendant is presumed innocent until and unless Proven Guilty in a court of law. These defendants have begown make their appearances in federal court. The court will be scheduling their arraignments and bond in preliminary hearings. Now, it is my privilege to introduce to you the u. S. Attorney for the Eastern District of michigan, matthew schneider, for some additional remarks. Thank you. Thank you, andrew. Good afternoon. All of us in michigan can disagree about politics, but those disagreements should never, ever amount to violence. Because of the hard work of the men and women of Law Enforcement, Police Officers and federal agents, violence has been prevented today. This case is being brought in the Western District of michigan. Some of the defendants reside in the Eastern District where some of the search warrants took place. But at the end of the day what matters most is that the people of michigan should be reassured that our state and federal governments are working together to keep us all safe. I want to thank attorney general nestle and her office for her outstanding work and committed partnership. I also thank colonel gasper, the fbi and, of course, u. S. Attorney birge. Every day Police Officers and federal agents put their lives on the line, and they do that for us. In this case, the agents made swift and safe arrests and those were done by those officers and agents. We are most thankful to them. Thank you. Its my pleasure now to introduce the director of the Michigan State police, colonel joe gasper. Thank you, attorney general, u. S. Attorneys birge and schneider and thank you to the fbi also. I appreciate the opportunity to speak to everyone today, and id first like to start out by saying thank you to the men and women of the Michigan State police, the fbi and any additional agencies that assisted in this investigation. They not only worked tirelessly over the course of the last 24 to 48 hours, but also since the beginning of this investigation. So thank you. Job well done. To the partners here today, i want to express our gratitude for the support and the cooperation. The partnership that all of us here are demonstrating. This case is one of the largest cases in recent history that the msp has been involved in. And i think that the nature of this case is rather unprecedented. But it does send a very vivid reminder that while we may be in a time period of discourse, possibly even divisiveness and fighting across the nation, Law Enforcement stands united. And for those who think that Law Enforcement is distracted, let me assure you that we are very much engaged with taking our responsibility to protect the public very seriously. We take we took an oath to protect and defend and to serve and together, we will take swift action against anyone who is planning or seeking to commit violence or harm to anyone in the state of michigan. Thank you again for the cooperation, and i will now turn it back to attorney general nestle. Okay. Well, unfortunately it appears as though fbi assistant special agent has not made it with us in time. But is he here . Hes on his way. If he gets here when im done speaking, ill try to speak slowly so that we can make time for his appearance. But anyway, thanks again to the colonel and to, of course, u. S. Attorneys birge and schneider and, you know, the fbi, state police. Everyones effort here. So important. But id like to announce that my office has filed additional charges in addition to the charges already announced by the u. S. Attorneys office in the Western District. On account of the state, we have additional charges. Id like to announce the following preliminary charges pursuant to the michigan antiterrorism act against seven individuals, all of whom are now in custody linked to the Militia Group wolverine watchmen and associates of wolverine watchmen. The individuals in custody are suspected to have attempted to identify the home addresses of Law Enforcement officers in order to target them, made threats of violence intended to instigate a civil war and engaged in planning and training for an operation to attack the Capitol Building of michigan and to kidnap government officials, including the governor of michigan. Now its important to note that these charges are subject to change after a complete review of the evidence obtained last night and may differ from those charged at the federal level. So we have issued the following charges against the following individuals. Paul beller, age 21, of millford who is charged with three felony counts providing Material Support for terrorist acts, a 20year felony and or 20,000 fine. Gang membership. A 20year felony which may be served as a consecutive sentence. Carrying or possessing a firearm during the commission of a felony, felony firearm, a twoyear mandatory prison sentence to be served consecutive to the other charges. Sean fix, age 38 of belleville charged with two felony counts, providing Material Support for terrorist acts, a 20year felony, carrying or possessing a firearm during the commission of a felony, felony firearm. Eric molitor, age 36 of cadillac, charged with two felony counts providing military support for terrorist acts and carrying or possessing a firearm during the commission of a felony, felony firearm. Michael knoll, age 38 of plainwell, charged with two felony counts, providing Material Support for terrorist acts and carrying or possessing a firearm during the commission of a felony, felony firearm. William knoll, of shelbiville charged with two felony counts, providing Material Support for terrorist acts and carrying or possessing a firearm during the commission of a felony, felony firearm. And pete musico, age 42, and joseph morrison, age 42, who live together in munith. These men are both charged with four felony counts, one count of threat of terrorism, a 20year felony and or 20,000 fine. One count of gang membership. Again, a 20year felony that may be serve as a consecutive sentence. One count each of providing Material Support for terrorist acts and one count each for carrying or possessing a firearm during the commission of a felony. Felony firearm. And before i continue with my remarks, i see that the fbi assistant special agent in charge josh hoxhurst is here. Id like to bring him up for a few remarks. Good morning. Thank you. On behalf of the fbi in michigan, i would like to thank you and our partners of the u. S. Attorneys offices of the western and Eastern Districts of michigan and the Michigan Attorney Generals Office and the Michigan State police. The primary mission of the fbi is to protect the American People and uphold the constitution. This investigation is an example of our continued commitment to that mission to both protect the people of this state and to adhere to the Rights Reserved by the constitution. The alleged conspirators are extremists who undertook a plot to kidnap a sitting governor. Whatever extremists move into the realm of actually plotting or planning violent acts, the fbis joint Terrorism Task force stands ready to identify, disrupt and dismantle their operations, preventing them from following through on those plans. An operation of this scope cannot occur without the assistance of Law Enforcement agencies large and small. We are incredibly proud of the work of our agents, Task Force Officers and Law Enforcement partners during last nights operation and throughout the course of this investigation. We rely on the publics assistance to help keep us safe. If you see suspected criminal activity and want to report it to the fbi, please call 800callfbi or submit tips online at tips. Fbi. Gov. Thank you. Thank you, special agent. With that, i just want to do a few things. First of all, i think its important to give a shout out to my staff since i have the ability to do that since were in our home offices here. I just want to with deep gratitude, thank solicitor general hamud, christina gracie, chief of our Criminal Division clark, john palace, our First Assistant in our Criminal Division. The head of our hate crimes division, and tom thabus who is the chief of our investigative unit. I wanted to say thanks to all of you. In addition, of course, its always important to reiterate that a criminal charge is merely an allegation and the defendants are presumed innocent unless and until Proven Guilty. But with that, i want to thank everyone up here in Law Enforcement and everyone who participated in this matter and who will continue to participate in this matter for their incredible efforts. The very brave efforts over the course of the past many months and to say to them that your efforts have left the people of this state safer and the instruments of our government stronger. And i know that i speak on behalf of michiganders all across this state when i say that we are grateful and indebted to you for your actions. So thank you very much. Well, ill say that im a bit disappointed that none of those officials took any questions. Because i think a lot of us still have a bunch of questions. Tom winter, Barbara Mcquade and Jim Cavanaugh are with me. Tom winter, they filled in some gaps but not a lot. Not a lot, chuck. Yes. It would be great. I dont understand why questions werent allowed to be asked or answered there, particularly because it would be great to get more of a sense of the ideology here. Unfortunately, we dont yet have the Court Documents. I believe i heard the attorney general say that it was the wolverine watchmen and announcing the arrest of seven more people. Thats typical in these type of cases because sometimes the states have the ability to make charges that the federal authorities cant just because of law and the statutes between the state and federal government. I think its interesting to note, all these men fit a typical profile that we see which is mid to late 30s, early 40s. The possession of weapons charges and the commission of a felony are important charges because those carry mandatory sentences that are stacked on top of whatever they are convicted with in their initial charges, the violations of the state. The state terrorism laws. As far as the original reason were here talking today, which is the six people that have been charged federally, separate from the charges the attorney general mentioned, all of those people could potentially face life in prison for those plots. So i think thats important. They did call these individuals, quote, violent extremists according to andrew birge, the u. S. Attorney prosecuting this. The fbi mentioned extremists. Two quick things i want to point out. The involvement of the fbi jttf. While theres no domestic terrorism statute in the united states, and theres several reasons for that, the involvement of the jttf and involvement of the state police tells me how seriously they took this plot because of those investigative techniques they can bring here. If this was an isis plot. The second thing is in the federal charging documents, i want people to understand and appreciate this. There was an informant, chuck, that wore a recording device on their person even after one of the people that was charged today allegedly went around the room, took everybodys cell phones and took them away from them. This meeting apparently happened in the basement that was accessed through a trap door in a store. And in that meeting they took away everyones cell phones. That person who is an informant stayed in that meeting and recorded that meeting which was helpful for the charges being brought today. That takes two things. One, a lot of bravery and guts and, two, to put a informant in a situation like that, chuck, requires an awful lot of coordination and expertise by Law Enforcement. They would know and have the ability to bring that person out of there if that recording device was discovered. And so theres a lot of work, some of which i wont discuss that went into this case here today thats very clear from the documents. Barbara mcquade, this is a very elaborate this is a lot of agencies that coordinated in this investigation. This is not some small charge here. This was this looks like it was quite the terrorism investigation. Yeah, and its really, i think, gratifying to see that we have federal and state agencies working together. The federal u. S. Attorneys appointed by President Trump and democratically elected democrat attorney general dana nessel. Party politics has no bearing at all when there is a plot to kidnap the governor of your state. And so very glad to see the show of unity by these Law Enforcement agents. But speaking of the coordination thats required, i have been involved in these kinds of takedowns before. We had a very similar case involving a militia about ten years ago. And the hardest part is deciding when is the right moment to take the group down . You need to gather sufficient evidence to be able to prove a case. On the other hand, you dont want to wait too long until tragedy strikes. The fbi refers to this concept as left of boom. The idea is if you put out a timeline, boom is the moment of the violent attack. You want to stop them somewhere left of boom but, of course, to prosecute the case successfully, you want to get as close to boom as possible so that you have sufficient evidence of a crime and not just mere talk. And so getting everybody to agree on that can be very challenging. Deciding when is the right moment. It seems they came together. Decided last night was the moment. They didnt want to get too close to the election before they took this group down. Yeah. Jim cavanaugh, michigan militias have been active for some time. I always felt as if michigan has more of these groups than most states. Any reason for that . Or is it just some historic anomaly. They have a lot of activity up there. Atf. We had an infiltrated one of their militias years ago. They wanted our agent to be the head of their group. We go back to he testified on the hill. Terry nichols and mcveigh associated with the michigan militia. Theyre just very active up there. Some key things about the plot. It was great reporting by tom winter and i agree with everything barbara just said about all the cooperation. Great work by the fbi and state police and prosecutors and all the other agencies in ohio, wisconsin and other federal agencies that have supported this. What people need to understand is, first, you have cooperating individuals. The many cases like this where wiring up people against the klan, the nazis, the militias. Its dangerous for them to do that and theyre willing to work with you. Sometimes you have to pay their expenses. Thats normal, too, and that happens in this case as well. Youre guarding them, youre protecting them. Trying to go with them. Youre interviewing to interrupt the plot. This plot they talked about everything in this plot from killing the governor to destroying her vacation house to making bombs to shooting state troopers and local officers who might respond. Ive seen that in plots also where they plan to kill the responding police. They talk real big. They want to kill, shoot. They want to overthrow, you know, kidnap governor whitmer. Very violent plans. And heres the other thing about it thats key. Its very fresh. Within the last three weeks, these militia members and conspirators were surveilling governor whitmers vacation house in michigan. Within the last three weeks. And their plot was to do this violent activity before the november 3rd election. Here we are a month away. So this was coming to fruition. Like barbara said. You have to interrupt the plot before the violence occurs. But this is a strong case. When you read the complaint. Theres numerous recorded conspiratorial interactions. This is what we always went for as well. We want the tape recordings of the conspirators while they are plotting the conspiracy, while they are acquiring the weapons and explosives, while they are making the bombs, while they are acquiring the silencers, while they are doing the surveillance. All of this is on tape, chuck. This is important physical evidence. Its evidence for the trial, evidence for the court. These guys are in deep trouble. Theyll need some real good lawyers. Hey, jim. Im just curious. What would have happened when tom described the informant wiring himself. What would have happened had you guys found out your informant had been compromised . Would they have rescued him in that moment . Yes, well, ive had that happen. Had that happen on many different occasions when they the suspect finds the wire or thinks he found the wire. We had one where the suspect on a we called the undercover broadcast to us outside so we could record it in the car, and the suspect, a woman came in from the kitchen to the living room and said, hey, everything youre saying is coming over the Police Scanner in the kitchen. Luckily, they got up to go listen and the confidential source jumped up and said, ive got to go and ran out of the house and he was found by the atf agents ripping off the electronic surveillance. But yes, youll go in to save them if they are found with the recording device. We found other undercover agents able to get out of it themselves or explain it. Some can get killed. So its very dangerous work. And a salute to the citizens and some associated with antigovernment groups that talked to Law Enforcement because they knew they were there was a plot to kill the Police Officers in michigan. They talked to Law Enforcement and cooperated. You find this in these groups. Someone says, i want to go to the rally. I want to use an antigovernment slogan. I hate the government, but im not ready to kill the police. And so theyll help. You helped get out of these crack pot groups, crackpot conspiracies. You live in the greatest democracy of the world and youre trying to kill the governor. Its crackpot. Its crazy. You need to get out of it. Barbara mcquade, what is that line, you know, because and jim alluded to it. Here its clear they did actions. It was more than just talk. It did actions. But im sure you went through this where these Militia Groups will talk a big game but, as you you are like, boy, id like to do something but i dont have any hard evidence and i dont know if theyll activate. Clearly here there was some activation. How do you make that decision about how far to investigate Something Like this . Its a very difficult call, chuck. Because the last thing you want to do is put real lives in danger. So you want to take down the case. And i would err on the side of going too early because the worst thing that you have is perhaps a not guilty verdict at trial but youve disrupted the plot. But you want to get it right because you want to not only disrupt the plot. You want to remove these people from society so they can be incapacitated and not continue to be a threat to public safety. One of the things you look for is whether theyve taken a substantial step in furtherance of the plot. So here there was evidence, as tom detailed, that they were taking photographs of bridges. That they surveilled the property that they tested and built improvised explosive devices. In addition to meeting and talking about it you have a lot of activity that could constitute what is a substantial step. So those kind of things go for it. Sometimes youll see instances where they dont have that kind of thing and so theyll do a sting operation where the person thinks they are coming to press the button to blow up the building and that can itself be a substantial step. But that was not necessary here. Right. Weve seen a lot of that. The nypd, i feel like ive done quite a few of those types of takedown stories with tom winter. Tom, last question for you. Theres actually an unrelated story that involves michigan politics that i was going to get you on the show today to talk about before this broke. And that has to do with the project that the sort of these i dont know what to call them. These sort of political terrorists of some sort. They try to terrorize in different ways with robocalls but this jacob wool and jack berkman who are just sort of a they do these fake operations all over it seems. They got caught in michigan. What more can we know about do we know about this . We know theyre in handcuffs today which is a significant development. Trying to name them, some people have said that they are conservative political activists. I think it goes beyond that. This would make theyre not activists. Theyre terrorizing people. Exactly. These are people that are, you know, would make nixons people that did the dirty tricks and other phrases i cant say on television blush. These guys have tried to set up theyve set up fake raids. They actually were able to get a newspaper to bite on that, that they were fake raided by the fbi. They were there was an instance, chuck, where they tried to set something up that the special Counsel Robert Mueller was involved in some sort of a Sexual Assault or some sort of a sexual its the same guys. Same guys. So theyve been involved jacob wahle is banned from trading securities because of a scheme and a scandal he was convicted of several years ago. These are people that have notorious backgrounds. Frequently try to be involved in political tricks. They have been supporters of President Trump, and they got caught this time. They got caught redhanded by the same Attorney Generals Office involved with naming the charges today, specifically there was a robocall they put out that was an effort, according to the charging documents of the attorney general to dissuade people specifically africanamerican voters from voting. So they got caught this time. They got caught being behind it, and they face a number of charges. And that particular case which, if they are stacked or charged or sentenced consecutively, as barbara might say, that they face a significant amount of time in jail. And the evidence in that case appears to be strong as well. So well see. Yeah. No, its the first time i feel like these guys have truly finally are going to get some Law Enforcement treatment. Tom winter, Barbara Mcquade, Jim Cavanaugh. Thanks for getting us through this story. H this story start with americas most awarded network, include the best in entertainment, and offer plans to mix and match starting at 35. Plus, get two Samsung Galaxy s20 fe 5g phones for 200 when you switch. Only at verizon. And sweetie can coloryou just be. Gentle with the pens. Okey. Okey. I know. Gentle. Gentle new projects means new project managers. You need to hire. I need indeed. Indeed you do. The moment you sponsor a job on indeed you get a short list of quality candidates from our resume database so you can start hiring right away. Claim your seventy five dollar credit, when you post your first job at indeed. Com home. Can go your own way its time you make the rules. So join the two Million People whove switched to xfinity mobile. You can choose from the latest phones or bring your own devic, and choose the amount of data thats right for you to save even more. And youll get 5g at no extra cost all on the most reliable network. So choose a data option thats right for you. Get 5g included. And save up to 400 yr on the network rated 1 in customer satisfaction. Its your wireless. Your rules. Only with xfinity mobile. Welcome back. Turning back to washington with the ink barely dry on the headlines from the Vice President ial debate, a new debate broke out today. Were having a debate over debates. President trump is saying hes pulling out of the next president ial debate if its next week and its virtual. Theres a lot of confusion here. The commission on president ial debates announced this morning without talking to the campaigns that next weeks debate, which is a town hall format, will be virtual with President Trump and Vice President biden participating in separate locations. Well, within minutes of that press release going out, the president said, not going to do it. But aides around him are now urging him to debate. And the Trump Campaign moments ago now called for essentially keeping all the debates but delaying them all a week so moving the 15th to the 22nd and the 22nd to the 29th. This comes as the number of infected Trump Administration officials and Campaign Advisers and their contact has now grown to at least 26 people diagnosed in recent days. Yet the president continues to downplay the virus aggressively and inaccurately, mind you. Hes now repeatedly claiming to have stumbled upon a cure. There is no cure. This comes as theres increasing sense of desperation around the president with just 26 days until the election. His support has fallen dramatically since last weeks debate. President trump called for the attorney general to indict biden and harris. He called senator harris a communist and a monster. For what its worth, the Biden Campaign put out a new release a few minutes ago about the debate issue and said, these debates these dates were set in june. They accepted all the dates. And they expect to, you know if hes not going to be there the 15th, theyll do their own town hall and take questions from folks. And they plan to still do the 22nd. So we are in a bit of a stalemate. Joining me from outside the white house is carol lee and monica alba is following the Trump Campaign. Carol, let me start with whats going on inside the white house. First of all, havent seen the president yet. Havent seen him live. We dont have a medical update, and we dont know when the last time he tested negative. Has any of that changed . None of that has changed. And we havent had we got a medical update from the president s doctor yesterday in written form saying he had no fever. Things were going well. But we havent had an actual briefing from the president s doctor since monday. But since the president was still at walter reed. So no one has been able to ask his doctor any questions. And we saw the president in video last night. He, obviously, called in to fox business this morning. So hes trying to maintain this sort of presence out there. But in a sign, i think, of how understaffed the president is. You have yesterday where he did this whiplash tweet about the Coronavirus Relief talks and then today you have this move where he just goes on fox business and says hes not going to participate in the debate and a scramble around him to get him to reverse that. But the reality is hes only a week from when they said he tested positive for coronavirus. Theres still a window based on the science of which he could presumably still be shedding virus a week from now when the debate is supposed to take place so the Debate Commission is trying to do what it sees as the prudent thing and the president reacting to that really negatively saying that theyre trying to do joe biden a favor when theres really no evidence of that, chuck. Carol, there were some other things. Speaking of whiplash. Where are we on congressional talks . Well, the white houses position still is that the president wants to do these piecemeal, smaller bills. But thats been so far at least for the democrats a nonstarter. And i think he kind of politically speaking handed the democrats a bit of a gift in that he is the one who is left seeing as walking away from any sort of relief for millions of americans before the election. And they are trying to clean that up. But its not clear that its working. If theres any space in which it might potentially the airlines but thats not even clear. Monica alba, given all the president s actions this morning, you would have thought they couldnt stand what happened at the debate last night. Is the campaign aware that the vp debate thinks the president s own comments about other debates, the vp debate has now disappeared . Yes, chuck. And you know as well as i do that this is a president who loves to have the spotlight on himself. And it seems he took that this morning by saying he wouldnt participate in a virtual debate. Now you have the trump reelect campaign, though, blaming the commission on president ial debates and the Biden Campaign for that, saying they are the ones who this morning wanted to steer any attention away from that contest last night in salt lake city. What you also have here is the president essentially making a big threat and Going Forward with this bluster weve seen time and time again before sometimes making a reversal. So is that something thats going to happen here . Its possible. But we also know he is so eager to get back on the campaign trail. Despite what his physicians may clear him to do. Despite what may be in terms of that timeline of contagion appropriate for him to be around anyone. A source familiar with the planning tells me that the campaign is fully preparing for some events to take place next week. They were hoping in and around the miami debate. So now that that appears to be off the table, you also have the Biden Campaign now saying, remember earlier in the summer, we committed to these general election debates. It was the Trump Campaign that said we dont want this schedule. We want an earlier one. We want to add a fourth one. And ultimately, they relented. So is that a sign of whats going to happen here . We dont know. But as we know, the Biden Campaign is firm that they dont want this to go to october 29th. The president , for his part, claims hes going to have a rally instead. Raising all sorts of questions about whats appropriate healthwise. How people can gather and, again, whether he is still potentially shedding the coronavirus as he recovers, chuck. Monica, how much is this an elaborate effort by the president to get out of the town hall debate . Its not a format he likes. It seems as if, you know, he had been trying to look and he found a way out of it any which way he gets out of it. I noticed their initial thing was, fine. No town hall but we look forward to the next debate. And its my understanding the Biden Campaign said if you skip the next debate, were still going to do a town hall. So we dont know if they meet one more time, what kind of debate its going to be, corr t correct . No, and we wait for the commission on president ial debates let us know where that lands. The Biden Campaign has made that point clear. But remember what happened to the president when he did that abc news town hall a couple of weeks ago. And he was confronted with several undecided voters who actually were so upset with the way he interrupted their questions and said please let me finish. They felt that didnt go great. And remember the president even made a lot of false claims there on the virus itself before contracting it. Saying it would go away on its own without a vaccine. They are nervous about what a town hall format presents for this president. Chuck . Anyway, history tells you this. The campaign that creates the debate over debates is a lot of times the campaign that doesnt necessarily want to debate. Carol lee and monica alba, thank you both. Well be right back with a fact check on the drug that the president is touting as a cure. Let me tell you something, i wouldnt be here if i thought reverse mortgages took advantage of any american senior, or worse, that it was some way to take your home. Learn how homeowners are strategically using a reverse Mortgage Loan to cover expenses, pay for healthcare, preserve your portfolio and so much more. A reverse Mortgage Loan isnt some kind of trick to take your home. Its a loan, like any other. Big difference is how you pay it back. Find out how reverse mortgages really work with aags free, noobligation reverse mortgage guide. With a reverse mortgage, you can pay whatever you can, when it works for you, or, you can wait, and pay it off in one lump sum when you leave your home. Discover the option thats best for you. Call today and find out more. Im proud to be a part of aag, i trust em, i think you can too. I had a case, i got it knocked out. I think it was regeneron that was responsible for it. The regeneron was i view it as a cure, not just a therapeutic. I view it as a cure because i took it. I had the regeneron. I dont know what would have happened without the regeneron. All i know is i had it and i was better within 24 hours. I felt perfect. That was President Trump this morning during a phone interview on the fox business network, that was rife with a lot of medical misinformation. He said the heavy steroid is not a heavy steroid, doesnt think hes contagious and dr. Fauci said can only be proven in a lab. You can definitively show that by another one of the recommendations that had been made about two negative pcr tests 24 hours apart. So if the president goes ten days without symptoms and they do the test that we were talking about then you can make the assumption based on good science that he is not infective. Here with his perspective is vaccine expert dr. Peter hotez. Dr. Hotez, so lets talk about this cocktail from the company regeneron and we heard what the regeneron what the president kept saying there. What is it, and when would you be convinced that this is an effective treatment . So, chuck, now there are two cocktails. The one from regeneron and one from eli lilly in collaboration and they work like this. When we develop vaccines for covid19, including ours that will be available hopefully starting next year, what they do is they work by inducing an immune response against the spike protein. They produce virus neutralizing antibodies. Almost all the vaccines hear about from moderna and pfizer pretty much work by the same principle to induce virus neutralizing antibodies against the spike protein. The problem is through a vaccine if its two doses, say a month apart, it could take up to six weeks for you to generate the virus neutralizing antibody after vaccination and if youre already have gotten sick and you havent been vaccinated you like to have the same antibodies now and thats what the cocktails are, one or two combination antibodies that neutralize the spike protein and im quite enthusiastic about this approach. Its the problem with it is that the antibodies dont last around forever but if you have got the virus it is probably one of the best treatments that we have for covid19 because we showed that this approach will work for other coronaviruses. And so, in a sense, the president is right in that those monoclotal antibodies probably did help him. It sounds like he was getting pretty sick, needed oxygen, problems with his lungs, having my fever so the fact that he turned around pretty quickly could be due to the regeneron antibody or did just as well with the other ones. So it is important to get those antibody treatments out and hopefully they will be released to the public sometime soon over time. How concerned are you about some of this, is it possible hes feeling a false sense of relief, if you will, that what hes been given is temporary, throw in the steroid, makes him feel good and he feels how do we know this isnt masking the issue versus curing the issue, i guess . Or also, how do we know were getting a straight story eater from the physician or from the president himself . We cant, right . We have to assume this is a black box. We have no real information and thats why i think it was wise not to put the president out there with other people in an inperson debate. I think it is important to keep that Virtual Event if they have at it all. Usually after ten days then hopefully hell clear the infection. One of the things we dont know is what happens if somebody gets this treatment, how it affects the natural course of the illness so as dr. Fauci just said getting two tests 24 hours apart is probably a wise thing to confirm that he is in fact negative. Dr. Peter hotez, from the Baylor College of med season, always appreciate your expertise. Thank you for coming on. Thanks so much. Well be back tomorrow with more meet the press daily. Thank you for spending time with us and dont miss the new episode of meet the press reports. We tackle the mysterious and bizarre Conspiracy Theory qanon, hows it grown so widespread and how connected is it with previous theories in american politics . Watch on nbc news now or stream it any time on peacock. Take a look. Meet the press reports. We have quite an archive now. Msnbcs coverage continues with katy tur speaking with the Michigan Attorney general about the plot to kidnap the governor. Thats right after this break. Dont miss it. Tonight. Ill be eating four cheese tortellini with extra tomatoes. [full emphasis on the soft a] so its come to this . [doorbell chimes] thank you. [doorbell chimes] bravo. Careful, hamill. Daddys not here to save you. Oh i am my daddy. Wait, what . What are you talking about . At humana, we believe your healthcare should evolve with you. And part of that evolution means choosing the right medicare plan for you. Humana can help. With original medicare, youre covered for hospital stays and Doctor Office visits, but youll have to pay a deductible for each. A Medicare Supplement plan can cover your deductibles and coinsurance, but you may pay higher premiums and still not get Prescription Drug coverage. But with an allinone humana Medicare Advantage plan, you could get all that coverage plus part d Prescription Drug benefits. You get all this coverage for as low as a 0 monthly plan premium in many areas. Humana has a Large Network of doctors and hospitals, and telehealth coverage with a 0 copay. So call or go online today, and get your free decision guide. Discover how an allinone humana Medicare Advantage plan could save you money. Humana, a more human way to healthcare. Just between us, cleaning with a mop and bucket is such a hassle. Well i switched to swiffer wet jet and its awesome. Its an allinone that absorbs dirt and grime deep inside. And it helps prevent streaks and haze. Stop cleaning. Start swiffering before we talk about taxsaudreys expecting. New . Twins wed be closer to the twins. Change in plans. At fidelity, a change in plans is always part of the plan. Taking california for a ride. Companies like uber, lyft, doordash. Breaking state employment laws for years. Now these multibilliondollar companies wrote deceptive prop 22 to buy themselves a new law. To deny drivers the rights they deserve. No sick leave. No workers comp. No unemployment benefits. Vote no on the deceptive uber, lyft, doordash prop 22. One ride california doesnt want to take. Doordash prop 22. Proposition 16 takes some women make as little as 42 of what a man makes. Voting yes on prop 16 helps us fix that. Its supported by leaders like Kamala Harris and opposed by those who have always opposed equality. We either fall from grace or we rise. Together. Proposition 16 provides equal opportunities, levelling the Playing Field for all of us. Vote yes on prop 16. Good afternoon. Im katy tur. It is 11 00 a. M. Out west and 2 00 p. M. In the west and following breaking news out of michigan this afternoon where the fbi says its foiled a militia plot to kidnap governor whit per target Law Enforcement and instigate a civil war. In a press