Corrupt to overturn the result of the 2016 election and interfere in the 2020 election. All of this is a dangerous perversion of the constitution that the senate should swiftly and roundly condemn. Now with the dueling briefs filed, the trial can get underway 24 hours from now. Joining me to talk about it, geoff bennett, kasie hunt. Geoff, i know the 110 pages were only released in the past minutes, but what are we learning about the white house arguments and the strategy . Great to see you. Our team of producers and i have been reading through this document. What it offers is a sweeping condemnation of these two articles of impeachment. The president s defense team makes the point that a rigged impeachment process, as they put it, led to those two flimsy articles of impeachment that they are trying to characterize. In the first one, abuse of power, to some arise President Trumps position, the position of his legal team, its show me the violation. Show me the broken law. It makes the point that president clinton, former president clinton, his violation was lying under oath. Andrew johnson, with 17 th president , his violation was running afoul of the tenure of office act. Here theyre saying the coordinated Pressure Campaign does not represent an Impeachable Offense. On obstruction of congress, you have the president s defense team making the point it is frivolous and dangerous and undermines the separation of powers they say. And if the house demands something from the executive branch and the white house refuses to provide it on executive privilege grounds, the house cannot turn around and impeach the president for it. And theyre calling for the speedy rejection of this case. And thats the big question, really, how long will this impeachment trial go and what witnesses, if any, will end up presenting themselvess . Kasie, do we have anymore clues to answer the questions . Were working on it. Right now theres more questions than answers about how this is going to unfold in the senate. Mitch mcconnell has kept his cards so close to the vest. We do not anticipate that we will see some of the witnesses that we were looking for until the day that the senate is set to vote on the structure of this trial and how it will unfold, or at least i should say that we expect that they will be voting. We know mcconnell has been working on this, its called an opening resolution. It sets the guidelines for how the trial is going to play out. And he has not showed that to democrats. It will dictate how long each side gets to talk. Nbc news is reporting while hell mirror the clinton impeachment and allow 24 hours for each side to present their case, he wants to limit the number of days that takes to two. So if democrats want to use all their time to make their coun r counterarguments, they do to do it in the middle of the night. Its going to take when they come in at 1 00 p. M. In the afternoon, 12 hours from there puts us at 1 00, 2 00, maybe 3 00 in the morning with breaks. Thats the latest frustration for democrats here. We know schumer is going to try to make a ply on witnesses at the outset. Theyre going to try to amend this opening resolution to demand that the considerations happens up front. We dont expect its going to go anywhere. Mcconnell is going to get his version of the rules passed. Thats going to punt whether we hear from witnesses or see more documents until later in the process. And how well each side does in presenting their arguments i think is going to have a Material Impact on whether we see any sort of twist and turn in the trial that we dont already expect standing here today before its started. The look ive had time to look at the document, theyre consistent with what documents from jim jordan and measuring meadows. Clearly heading into an election year, the white house settled on a strategy they think is going to work with their base. Its a step further than the strategy we saw with democrats and bill clinton back in 19 99 which is the other precedent we have for this. In that instance they came around to the idea that well, it was all right to acknowledge that bill clinton had conducted himself in a manner that they didnt necessarily approve of. But that didnt mean the offense was impeachable, he should be removed from office because of what he did. In this case, republicans and the white house seem to be ar e arguing theres nothing to see here. Theres no discussion of the president s conduct through a kind of a lens, which i think is a key difference. And geoff, let me ask you because on this holiday the president is going to be heading tonight to switzer lapd for davos. You asked Kellyanne Conway about how the president is celebrating Martin Luther king junior day. What did she tell you . I asked her that question because the white house schedule that we get every night to set up the following day last night it had nothing of the president observing king day. I asked her that question earlier today. Heres what she told me. The president is preparing for davos and agrees with many of the things that dr. Martin luther king stood for and agrees for many years including unity and equality. And hes not the one trying to tear the country apart through an impeachment process and a lack of substance that really is very shameful at this point. Ive held my opinion on it for a very long time. When you see the articles of impeachment that came out, i dont think it was within dr. Kings vision to have americans dragged through a process where the president is not going to be removed from office, is not being charged with bribery, extortion, high crimes or misdemeanors, and i think anybody who cares about and justice for all today or any day of the year will appreciate the fact that the president now will have a full throttled defense on the facts and everybody should have that. So a link there between dr. King and his vision and the ongoing impeachment process. I should say the white house is not ruling out an unscheduled visit by President Trump to the king memorial in washington. As stand and talk to you, no public plans for the president to commemorate this day. Geoff, kasie, thank you to both of you for your reporting. Even as the new bereave was being filed last your, a member of the president s defense team, Alan Dershowitz said on msnbc that even if the president did abuse his power, it doesnt matter. Do you believe donald trump abused the power of his office . Yes or no . Its irrelevant. Its not relevant to the issue under consideration in impeachment because abuse of power is not a criteria for impeachment. Meanwhile, Chuck Schumer pledged the democrats will force votes during the trial on key witnesses and documents. We will force votes on witnesses and documents and it will be up to four republicans to side with the constitution, to side with our democracy, to side with rule of law and not side to blind obedience to trump and his desire to suppress the truth. Joining me now is a democratic strategist julie epstein, legal analyst cynthia oxney, legal reporter charlie savage, and nile stannings. Is there evidence to support the claim that abuse of power is not an Impeachable Offense . I think this is the most interesting part of the emerging legal strategy that trump came forward. Were hearing less and less of this is not proven. Its hear say. More and more it doesnt matter if he did it. Abuse of power is not a crime unless it violates an ordinary criminal statute. I have to say Alan Dershowitz is a smart man. Hes a celebrated criminal defense lawyer. Hes not known as a constitutional scholar. This is outside the mainstream of what constitutional scholars steeped in this issue think. The English Parliament thought before the founding that the colonies thought when they had impeachments and when there were impeachments in the states during the articles of confederation and even an impeachment trial happening in london and reported in the United States at the time the constitution was being lratifie. Abuses of power means a violations of public trust. So this is putting forward this theory is a challenging thing. Maybe it muddies the water. Maybe if there is a republican senator who doesnt want to vote for witnesses and is looking for an excuse, this provides one because it doesnt matter what the facts are if the charges are invalid on their face, but it is a twist from the point of people who have spent their careers studying these issues. And julian, this new brief as we said, maintains the president did nothing wrong. He committed no crimes. And as we were talking about with kasie, so much of it echoes what weve heard from his and his supporters before, more of a political argument, but worth mentioning. These arguments come from a man the president of the United States who the Washington Post just calculated has made 16,241 false or misleading claims if the first years of his presidency. Nevertheless, is this strategy going to hold up, do you think, with the republican senators he needs . I think if people are looking for an excuse, this gives you kind of a thin ly veiled excuse to vote against conviction. This is a silly argument. The argument that you need to have a crime in order to have an Impeachable Offense. At the time the impeachment was written in the constitution, very few of these crimecrimeds enumerated. The question is was there public corruption . Did the president use his way in a office to ben facility himself personally. It seems to me the easy answer to that question is yes, and in fact, in the brief the white house is now shifting away from denying that the scheme took place, to saying yes, but its not impeachable. That may be a persuasive argument to a naive observer, anyone paying attention knows this is activity that was taken on by the president to benefit himself. And the worst kind of public corruption that you can have in our government is enlisting a Foreign Government to help you in the election. It undermines the institutions of democracy. Thats the kind of public corruption the founders were worried about when they if you look back on the history and theres lots of discussion about this. It seems to me the argument thats persuasive for the naive, but no serious legal analyst is going to say this passes muster. Its not an argument you can make with a straight face. A lot of the people judging are lawyers, went to law school. That aside, cynthia, look, its the job of a defense team to put out a defense. Right . Its their job to say my guy didnt do it. Thats when you do at a trial as defense attorneys. John dean of watergate fame said the first brief, i think it was six pages, a response to the democrats filing read to him like parts of it had been dictated by the president himself. From what youve read, does this read like a legal argument . Well, its its similar to some of the letters that sepa lonnie put out. It talks about things being rigged. Its not the way legal briefings are written. It does seem like President Trump put his thumb in the word document and tried to make a difference. Its odd they still arent disputing the facts. There is a lot of blaming going on. For instance, a lot of discussion about we had every right not to produce any of these witnesses. We didnt get to everything was rigged and they had that house meetings in the basement when we know the house meetings were attended by republicans and democrats alike. Its a repeat of all those arguments in 110page document. I dont see anything particularly surprising with the exception of this Slight Movement to the dershowitz point of view that even if true, he cant be impeached, but given the state of the way the defense is working, thats not surprising. Do you see the president s hand explicitly or impolicely in this document, and hes hoo showing im doing the things that president s do, but how closely do you imagine hell be following and listening and what is he expecting to hear . Hell be following and listening really closely, even though he might deny doing so. To your other point, i think the president s approach is all over this. This is much less a legal strategy than it is a political strategy, and frankly, to some extent, a tv strategy. That you send people out to make the argument that impeachment is unfair and also in some sense insulting to the people who voted for donald trump in the first place. I think its a demagogue kind of arg argument, but its about trying to shore up his base and trying to divert from the evidence itself. The evidence here is pretty plain. It seems clear that President Trump solicited help from a Foreign Government to help with his domestic political fortunes, and this strategy is all about trying to distract from that evidence. Thank you all so much. Now youll be back with us just a little bit later. Well see you then. And this hour were going to talk with two senators about the impeachment trial. First up, ben cardin, a member of the Foreign Relations committee. Plus were watching the tense day in virginia now as a state of emergency with thousands of people gathered at the capital for a gun rally. Weve seen heavy security, armed people in the streets. Renewed fears of violence. Were there live. Youre watching msnbc. Youre watching msnbc. Than Rheumatoid Arthritis or Psoriatic Arthritis. When considering another treatment, ask about xeljanz xr, a oncedaily pill for adults with moderate to severe Rheumatoid Arthritis or active Psoriatic Arthritis for whom methotrexate did not work well enough. It can reduce pain, swelling, and significantly improve physical function. Xeljanz can lower your ability to fight infections like tb; dont start xeljanz if you have an infection. Taking a higher than recommended dose of xeljanz for ra can increase risk of death. Serious, sometimes fatal infections, cancers including lymphoma, and blood clots have happened. As have tears in the stomach or intestines, serious allergic reactions, and changes in lab results. Tell your doctor if youve been somewhere fungal infections are common, or if youve had tb, hepatitis b or c, or are prone to infections. Dont let another morning go by without asking your doctor about xeljanz xr. At this hour senators are preparing to take part in history as the impeachment trial of President Trump gets underway less than 24 hours from now, and were learn manager about why his legal team says President Trump did nothing wrong. With the release in the last hour or so of a detailed 110 page defense. Joining us now, ben cardin of maryland. Senator, thank you for joining us. President trumps legal team in this brief argue in greater detail some of the main points weve heard of their defense. I want to ask about the one that nothing here is a violation of the law. Now, plenty of constitutional experts say an Impeachable Offense doesnt have to be a criminal offense. I wonder for the average voter, do you think theyd want to know that something so serious as to force the removal of a president was, indeed, a crime . Well, chris, first, its good to be with you, and youre right. To have an Impeachable Offense, it does not have to be a violation of a criminal code. We do know that the gao, the Government Accounting Office said the president s actions and withholding funds did violate law. You dont have to establish that for an Impeachable Offense. Its clear the framers of the constitution giving Sole Authority to the congress in impeachment and trial wanted to have a check and balance in our system so the legislative branch of government makes the sole determination of the articles of impeachment and if its subject to the removal of the president. They have an issue with the second article of impeachment. I want you to put your hat on as a lawyer which i know you are and read from this new brief that came out. The novel concession of abuse of power as an impeachable defense is constitutionally defective. Its a made up theory that the president can be impeached and removed from office under an amor fis and undefined standard of abuse of power. What do you make of that argument . Well, once again, i think this is a totally against what the framers of our constitution envisioned. Yes, abuse of power can very well be the grounds for articles of impeachment. Here were talking about whether the president solicited a Foreign Government to get involved in our domestic elections. That is clearly an issue that is was of concern to our Founding Fathers when they drafted the impeachment clause. They didnt want our government depending upon a Foreign Government. Abuse of power is clearly an area in which congress has a right to challenge the president s kulkt through articles of impeachment. Weve already heard Mitch Mcconnell say hes not an impartial ju impartial juror. That provoked a lot of criticism about how hes running all of this. The last i heard you say is you have not prejudged the evidence. Do you wish more of your democratic colleagues had done the same . Can mcconnell be criticized for having made up his mind already when democrats, many of them have already said they believe the president has committed offenses that warrant his removal from office . Well, every senator is taking a separate oath to be an impartial junl or juror in this matter. I hope all 100 members of the United States senate would be impartial. It doesnt mean we dont have views. I have strong views about conduct of a president soliciting the help of a Foreign Government to get involved in a domestic election and not cooperating with congress. I have views about that. But im keeping an open mind until i hear that managers of the house and the president present their case. Thats what every member of the senate should do. But particularly the majority leader, the person who will have the most to say on how the senate trial is going to take place, he working with the defense lawyers only, the president s lawyers only and not with the democrats and not trying to get a consensus resolution on how the process should move forward. To me thats a violation of not only the oath of being impartial. Its also using his position where it should be on behalf of the United States senate in a very partisan manner. Chuck schumer has made it clear hes ready to push hard for witnesses. We understand he may make a play at the outset for witnesses. At least two democrats have said theyre open to republicans then calling their own witnesses. I want to play that for you, senator. They can easily call hunter biden. Are you prepared for that . Fine. I understand both sides get to call witnesses. They can call whomever they want to call. Do you agree with that . Do you support letting the other side, for example, call hunter biden if thats who they want to call . I would like to hear the president s counsels argument as to how hunter biden or the former Vice President biden irrelevant to the factual determinations that we have in the articles of impeachment, but heres the point. What senator schumers requesting, the four witnesses he has, and by the way theres been additional evidence thats come forward on additional witnesses are people that have firsthand knowledge of the president s participation with the president of ukraine. We should clearly hear from those witnesses and see those documents. They were not made available in the house because the president prevented these individuals from testifying and would not make the documents available. We should at least be able to see the sourced documents about the president s activities. Other witnesses, fine, let us consider it. Let them make the arguments on relevan relevancy. If theyre relevant, we should hear the witnesses particularly if either of the house managers or the president s attorneys believe its critically important to their case or their defense. Senator ben cardin, you have long days and momentous decisions to make. We thank you for taking the time to be with us. We appreciate it. Up next, major democratic in fighting. Should the party be worried . The New York Times has endorsed two Democratic Candidates. Neither of them National Front runner joe biden. What this might mean for his campaign and how everybody is reacting today. Youre watching msnbc. See how to forecast anything, from todays weather to tomorrows business trends. With esri location technology, you can see what others cant. Thats why its important to be prepared for anything life brings. At fidelity, well help you build a clear plan for retirement. 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For small prices, you can build big dreams, spend less, get way more. Shop everything home at wayfair. Com today were just two weeks away from the Iowa Caucuses and tensions between the Democratic Candidates are broiling. Take, for example, senators warren and sanders continuing to deal with the fallout over whether or not sanders told warren a woman could not be elected president. Meantime both warren and sanders are going after joe biden and his record on social security. Biden firing back saying the Sanders Campaign circulated what he called a doctord video. And warren is calling out bloomberg over his 45day extension to disclose his financi personal financial form. The New York Times, two candidates splitting the president ial endorsement. Senators warren and klobuchar. Joining us Vaughn Hillyard in iowa and mike memali in South Carolina. Oh, my goodness. The difference in temperatures is striking. Send him back to iowa. Vaughn, you talked to Elizabeth Warren about her exchanges with sanders and the infighting in the party. What is she telling you . Yeah. Its about 6 degrees right here now in iowa. I know all the candidates are going to be making their way from mikes location in South Carolina up here to the wonderful state of iowa 14 days out. The last few weeks is when the moment happened after a year of campaigning among this large field of democrats, in the last two weeks is when they started to contrast each of their own records. Last week you saw the debate. Bernie sanders and Elizabeth Warren calling each other liars on national television. And thats why i think the scenes out of South Carolina of them marching together are remarkable. Because we asked warren this weekend about these feuds and this is what she told us. I think that we all ought to be out here talking about why were running for president. Thats what im doing. Thats what ive done today in des moines, and thats what i keep doing. Reaching out to voters, telling them who i am, why im in this fight, and asking them to join me in a grass roots movement. Now, infighting among parties is not new to politics. Four years ago as Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders, they figured it enough to win the presidency. This year is abou about friendship2020 the democrats like to say. In the last two weeks with two weeks to go until the iowa caucus, thats where you see the grenades being lobbed particularly by the Sanders Campaign. Hes been hard on joe biden when it comes to Race Relations and joe bidens past stances on social security, and thats the question mark ahead is what do you see here . As the Senate Impeachment trial unfolds, theyre headed back to washington d. C. To take part in the trial. What does the Playing Field look like here in iowa . Thats a big question . It looks cold is what it looks. Mike, you actually wouldnt know there was any Sanders Warren feud where you are in South Carolina. I think it was eight of the candidates were there today. They were all linking arms, took that six block walk from Zion Baptist Church to the state house and went to the brown and black forum. Tell us what you saw between candidates but also the importance of the event leading up to the South Carolina primary. Well, first, chris, it is unseasonably cold here in colombia, South Carolina. Its the upper 30s, low 40s. Thats cruel to vaughn. Thats not nice. But as you say, vaughn mentioned it. The last time we saw sanders and warren share a stage they were having a hot mic moment. They were going at each other about their honesty. All of us were paying extra close attention knot body language not just between sanders and warren but the other candidates. It was a friendly gathering. There was handshakes and smiles as they walked for the king day at the dome. Its interesting to note, chris, for a lot of these candidates, this might be the last time they appear in South Carolina not just because of the impeachment trial. Some of them arent going to make it past iowa. This is an important moment. Tom steyer is surging in the polls and used his remarks to say this is not the time for democrats to fight with each other and talking about why. Its time to focus on trump. You might think team biden would not want to draw attention to the challengers, but his team has been tweeting with bidens interview with the times. Highlighting a clip saying this is the endorsement that actually equals votes. Heres the clip. Zblim great. I love you. Thank you. I do. Youre like my favorite. Thank you so much. Whats your nam . Jack. You got a camera . Well take one. Okay . You are awesome. Youre my favorite, she says. The case, actually, for Amy Klobuchar was about electability. Does team biden really not care that they didnt get the endorsement . I think theyre happy with that visual rein the comparison between the Editorial Board versus real folks. This video i think the biden team says for all the incoming faced from democrats and also from the president and his allies, the fact that hes leading in the polls, that moment shows why. He has this personal connection with voters like the one we saw in the elevator. I had a chance to ask senator klobuchar about the endorsement and the significance for the campaign. Well, im very excited about it. I didnt expect it. And i just went in there and told them how i felt about what we need to do and how were going to bring the country together. I think one of the things that they noted is that you need a candidate for president and someone leading our country thats going to actually represent everyone, not just half of america. Klobuchar was quick to note she also got an endorsement from the quad city times. Thats an iowa paper. You cant forget iowa. Mike, vaughn, thank you. Vaughn, get in from the cold. Joining me now, back with us nile and beth. Beth, lets talk about this kind of back and forth that weve been seeing and i wonder is it the normal thing that happens . Were two weeks out. Is it a release of pent up frustrations that people have been feeling . Is it that sense of i need to make it out of iowa . I need to differentiate . What do you think is going on here . Yeah. Its all of these things. Last time in 2016, vaughn referenced this. It was a real cage match between Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders, the u. S. The two of them. For months. And continued for months and months even after iowa and new hampshire. This time its different. Its a large field. Its unsettled. They sort of have spent this entire year not going after one another, trying to sort out that large field and let voters get a measure of all of them in a way that is as positive as possible. Here we are two weeks out and really nobody has any idea of whats going to happen. I mean, biden has been the favorite all along in iowa and nationally. Hes had other moderate candidates nipping at his heels. Amy klobuchar getting that endorsement and getting momentum. Pete buttigieg has been active in iowa. This is the left leaning folks. Sanders and warren. Plugging away in iowa, doing a lot of campaigning. Nobody knows whats going to happen at this point. I think thats what were seeing. A lot of that sort of pent up tension of candidates sort of finally letting out some of their frustrations. Honestly, compared to past years, this has been a pretty mild bunch of weeks. Yeah. And you can understand the tensions that the candidates and their staffs are feeling. Now you write the Sanders Warren battle could reshape the democratic primary. Your article quotes a democratic strategist saying its the most idiotic thing ive seen. Theres only one win ere out of this battle. Its joe biden. Are warren and sanders driving potential voters away, driving them to somebody who is not them . This is definitely the danger in it. Its linked to the point that beth just made about a multicandidate field. The dynamics are really different if there are only two candidates as there were effectively in 2016, Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton. When you have a multicandidate field, its easy for two people to get in to an aggressive battle and let someone else through the middle. It happened back in 2004, the first general election i covered in this country. And the runup to iowa. Two attacked each other strongly. John kerry won the Iowa Caucuses and won the nomination. This can happen easily. The other thing democrats worry about frankly is on Martin Luther king day, keeping your eyes on the prize. They worry that democrats are going to take their eyes off of the prize of beating President Trump and instead focus on these rather factional feuds, particularly on the left. The thing about the pressure building because its only two weeks out, beth, and you see these polls recently that say 60 of the voters in iowa are undecided or could change their minds. How volatile, i know youre heading back there again soon, but how volatile is it on the ground in iowa . Its so volatile. Basically these voters, the ones who are going to caucus are obsessed with beating President Trump. Thats the only thing they care about. They dont care about anything else. And theyre so worried about making the wrong choice. I dont think were going to know until just a day or two before which direction this race is headed. And it could end up being extremely close, even that night that we could come out of iowa without a really clear sense of who ran away with it or even walked away with it. Were going to see volatility throughout until voters have gotten made a decision about who is the best position to vote, to beat President Trump. Well, beth, now you know how to pack for your trip to iowa. Obviously pack heavy. Nile, thank you to you as well. Appreciate you sticking around. Up next, the state of emergency in richarmond, virgin. Rallying for gun rights. What theyre fighting for and why its so tense. Wee are live on the ground. Youre watching msnbc. Limu emu doug and now for their service to the community, we present limu emu doug with this key to the city. [ applause ] its an honor to tell you that Liberty Mutual customizes your Car Insurance so you only pay for what you need. And now we need to get back to work. [ applause and band playing ] only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. You should be mad your neighbor always wants to hang out. And you should be mad your smart fridge is unnecessarily complicated. Make ice. Making ice. But youre not mad because you have e trade which isnt complicated. Their tools make trading quicker and simpler so you can take on the markets with confidence. Dont get mad get e trade and start Trading Commission free today. Welcome back. Look at these live pictures. This has richarmond, virginia. A city under a state of emergency because of protests. Large numbers of enthusiasts and armed militia showed up carrying arms. The state has been on edge since the governor declared the state of emergency after getting credible intelligence from Law Enforcement that armed groups including hate groups, were planning to disrupt the event. Joining me now, cal perry at the rally throughout the day. Give us a sense of whats been happening there, what youre seeing and hearing. Good afternoon. The rally has broken up and what remains of course is the very large Law Enforcement presence. That will last for another 12 to 24 hours because people will probably linger, stay in town and these people are heavily armed, exercising what they believe is their Second Amendment right to try to influence some of the restrictions that are coming. Weve been talking to people all day. Listen to what ryan had to tell us earlier today. This is what the Second Amendment was in place for. You show up ready to show the government that youre ththat youre willing to stand up for your rights. Theyre talking about confiscation, kicking in peoples doors and no knock raids. Thats insane. Reporter what . So that is a problem. What he is saying is a problem, because, of course, here in virginia people are not going door to door and taking guns. We had an extraordinary moment have the governor of virginia had to tell people in a National Audience they were not going to shut off the internet, guns were not going to be confiscated. There is so much disinformation on the internet. People are concerned about it here. When you look at charlottesville two years ago, the online threats. These rumors that the government is out to take peoples guns. Theyre having a major effect on people. Cal, thank you so much. We appreciate it. Coming up next, a democratic senator joins us on how impeachment will play in the upcoming elections. How will his party make the case that will convince the American People . Youre watching msnbc. Youre watching msnbc. Fun fact 1 in 4 of us millennials have debt we might die with. And most of that debt is actually from credit cards. Its just not right. But with sofi, you can get your credit cards right by consolidating your Credit Card Debt into one monthly payment. Including your Interest Rate right by locking in a fixed low rate today. And you can get your money right with sofi. Check your rate in two minutes or less. Get a nofee personal loan up to 100k. Why fingerstick when you can scan . With the freestyle libre 14 day system just scan the sensor with your reader, iphone or android and manage your diabetes. With the freestyle libre 14 day system, a continuous glucose monitor, you can check your glucose levels any time, without fingersticks. Ask your doctor to write a prescription for the freestyle libre 14 day system. You can do it without fingersticks. Learn more at freestylelibre. Us welcome back. In less than 24 hours, senators will be seated for the start of the impeachment trial of president donald trump. In the last hour we got a look at the White House Legal Team strategy. In a new brief the president s lawyers calls the art cals of impeachment an affront to the constitution. Earlier today house managers completed a walkthrough of the Senate Chambers as they get ready. Joining me now one of the senators who will be acting as a juror in the impeachment trial, Chris Van Hollen of maryland. Good to see you. Good afternoon. Good to be with you. Last hour the white house released their brief as we said. I want to read part of it which i think is key to the arguments weve been hearing from those folks. The deluded standard is asserted here woe permanently alter, and in a manner that offends the constitutional design established by the founders. That follows their argument that neither of the articles of impeachment are legitimate. What do you say . Well, thats both dangerous and absurd. What the articles of impeachment charge the president with is number one, abuse of power, because the president used, abused the official office of the presidency so pressure the government of ukraine, to try to do a personal, political favor for him intervening in the 2020 election. And then they covered it up with this gross obstructionwhat the president s team is saying, and this is apparently an Alan Dershowitz argument, by the way one he contradicted back in 1998, he said very different things. But what theyre saying right now is essential lever the president can totally abuse the public trust and can commit what the founders believe were high crimes and misdemeanors. But if theres not a violation of a criminal statute that he cant be impeached. Let me give you an example of what that would allow. President trump could say to president putin in russia, go ahead and occupy all of ukraine. And in exchange with, ill let you do that. I wont push back on that. And in exchange, i want you, putin, to interfere on my behalf in the 2020 election. No violation of criminal law. Everybody would agree that thats a gross abuse of power. And thats the kind of thing the framers were worried about. And so this is a pretty desperate move of the president s folks, because they dont want to argue the facts. Well, you know what the republicans say . They say the fact that there is new evidence that the democrats want to put out there, the fact that they want some of these witnesses, is a show, that theyre desperate, that they in fact dont believe that they could make a case with what the house essentially voted to impeach on. So look, we both know what Chuck Schumer has said. He is going to go and try to push hard for witnesses. But if there are no witnesses, there is no new evidence, do you believe you have a Strong Enough case even without that . Oh, heres my view. I wont make any final decision until all the evidence is in. But if you just want to look at the houses case as of today, theres no doubt in my mind that they met the standards required for impeachment. But they have to persuade not just half of the senate, as they had to persuade hatlf of the house. New evidence comes up all the time in trials. They are entitled to introduce that. To the extent they were unable to call certain witnesses in the house, it was because the president and his team blocked them from getting those witnesses. So if Mitch Mcconnell wants to follow the clinton model, at the end of the day in the clinton trial, they had three witnesses who testified under oath. So lets have witnesses and lets have the documents that are relevant to the case. As you all know, the hundred of you are not the only people that both sides will be talking to, theyre talking to the American People. And you have a better understanding of the political map than many because you served as chair of both the Democratic Congressional campaign and the Democratic Senatorial Campaign committee. So i wonder strategically, how should your house colleagues make the democrats case . How do you do that in a way that not just makes your case but also maximizes the impact . And what is your partys goal of winning back the senate as well as winning the house and winning the white house . So chris, i do believe this is a serious moment where the obligation of every senator, regardless of party, is to follow the constitution and conduct a fair trial, and lets see where the truth leads us. But to your point, i also believe the American People overwhelmingly believe that a fair trial requires the calling of relevant witnesses and getting relevant documents. Everybody knows thats what a fair trial is. And therefore if there are senators that decide to effectively conspire with the white house to rig the trial, to prevent any information, new information from coming forward, that would be a violation of their duty to conduct a fair trial. And i do think its fair. So you believe that would help you, that would help democrats . I think that its because its the right thing to do to get a fair trial, i think voters will essentially hold people accountable if theyre not willing to try to get to the truth. I think people are rightfully asking, if the white house has nothing to hide, why are they so worried about having this information come forth . Senator Chris Van Hollen, thank you so much. Appreciate your time, sir. Thank you. Well be right back. 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The time will be spread out over two days, which means 12 hours per day. That marks a change from the clinton trial where each side had their time spread out over three days. Critics argue republicans are intentionally trying to keep