Transcripts For MSNBCW MSNBC Live With Velshi And Ruhle 20171204

Justice. There is a credible case of obstruction of justice against donald trump. You cannot charge a president with obstruction of justice for exercising his constitutional power to fire comey. Obstruction of justice. Is it to you . No, its not. Both of you were clear on meet the press, that no russians ever attempted to contact you during the campaign. Correct. You did not speak to any russians during the campaign, is that correct . To the best of my knowledge, never. Friday was my single worst day as a u. S. Senator. Republicans passed tax plans in both the house and the senate, but now they have to get their plans on the same page. Some lawmakers, including democratic senator john tester of montana, decreed the move, arguing lawmakers were not given enough time to review the bill, which was riddled with handwritten, sometimes barely legible notes. Take a look at this, folks. This is your government at work. Heres the bill as written. Heres the modifications that are in it. I can read one word. Its called add this language. Can you tell me what that word is . All right. Before we dig into that, weve got to look at the markets right now. We also need to put into perspective on that, ive never looked at things like that. Maybe it is common there are lots of things written in the margin. When i look at that as a one off, i think, you have to be kidding me. We have to get some Historical Perspective around it. These markets, strong though they are, less strong than a couple hours ago when you were on tv, we were up more than a percent on the dow. This is on news of the tax bill that has passed. Remember why this is so important. It is not just that it would be good for corporations. This is the first real sign for wall street that this Republican Administration can get something done. Right. President trump has a lot of talking points, signed a lot of executive orders. What hes done with judgeships matters to conservative christians. For wall street,infrastructure matters. The administration often walks back the tweets and the aggressive things he says. President trump firing back this morning against suggestions that one of these tweets you were just talking about could strengthen a potential obstruction of jus sis case against him. Against the president. That tweet, quote, i had to fire general flynn because he lied to the Vice President and the fbi. The president s personal lawyer quickly backtracked, saying he dictated those words to a white house aide. He also insisted the president did not know thenNational Security adviser Michael Flynn had lied to the fbi when he fired him. Why does it matter . The tweet implies the president knew flynn lied before james comey says trump asked him to drop the case against flynn. Something the president says never actually happened. This morning, the president highlighted, legal scholar comments about, quote, the greatest witch hunt in u. S. Political history. You cannot charge a president with obstruction of justice for exercising his constitutional power to fire comey and his Constitutional Authority to tell the Justice Department who to investigate, who not to investigate. Thats what Thomas Jefferson did, lincoln did, roosevelt did. We had president s that clearly established that. The president s personal lawyer, john dowd, also insisted this morning, the president cannot obstruct justice because he is the chief Law Enforcement officer under the constitutions article ii and has every right to express his view of any case. It is an interesting point. I just dont know if it holds any water. Right. And it is a legal point. For all these opinions, it may have to be examined a little more closely. All of this follows President Trumps history with both Michael Flynn and james comey. On november 18th of 2016, donald trump, president elect trump, named Michael Flynn as his National Security adviser. You remember that. Thats november 18th. On december 29th, 2016, flynn spoke with the Russian Ambassador after the Obama Administration unveiled sanctions against russia for election hacking. December 29th. December 30th, Vladimir Putin announced he wouldnt retaliate. President elect trump then praised Vladimir Putin in a tweet. Couple weeks later, january the 13th, sean spicer was then the White House Press secretary, says, flynn did not discuss sanctions with the russian ambassad ambassador. This is important. On january 15th, two days later, Vice President pence, Vice President elect pence, said flynn told him sanctions were not discussed with sergey kislyak, the Russian Ambassador. February 10th, the Trump Administration is in office, donald trump denies hearing reports of flynns discussions with russia about sanctions. On february the 14th, sean spicer says trump asked flynn to resign because of an erosion of trust. Also, the same day, february 14th, valentines day this year, according to james comeys june testimony, thats the day that President Trump asked james comey not to investigate Michael Flynn. February 16th, youll remember that now famous press conference, President Trump discusses flynns resignation and says, quote, flynn is a fine person. What he did wasnt wrong. He did not give flynn a direct i have directive to talk to russia. March 31st of this year, donald trump says flynn should ask for immunity and calls the russia investigation a witch hunt. May 9th of this year, President Trump fired james comey as fbi director. Little about eight or nine days later, may 18th, Deputy Attorney general Rod Rosenstein named Robert Mueller the special counsel. Jump ahead to last friday, december 1st, 2017. Michael flynn pleads guilty to lying to the fbi, becoming the first Top Administration official to cooperate in Robert Muellers russia investigation. Heres the president this morning talking about flynn. I feel badly for general flynn. I feel very badly. Hes led a very strong life, and i feel very badly. I will say this, Hillary Clinton lied many times to the fbi. Nothing happened to her. Flynn lied and they destroyed his life. We should point out, the fbi has never asserted that Hillary Clinton lied to them. James comey, in the testimony to congress, when asked, said, i have no evidence that Hillary Clinton lied to the fbi. So we think the president might just be making that up. Joining us now, former new York Democratic congresswoman and member of the Judiciary Committee during the watergate scandal, has some good experience, liz holtzman, also a former prosecutor. What is your take on President Trumps tweet that he had to fire flynn because flynn lied to the Vice President and to the fbi . Could trump be in real trouble here . Absolutely. First of all, he is in trouble. Mueller has gotten his target right on him. Is he going to get him . We dont know. But he is definitely under investigation and he is looking. For the president basically to admit in that tweet, despite all of the claims that he didnt write it, does he know what hes tweeting, was his brain even there at that moment, we wont go there. But the fact of the matter is, the president tweeted that he knew that tweet says, i knew that flynn lied to the fbi before i fired comey. What that suggests is that he has got a motive to fire comey, which is to cover up for flynn and to stop the investigation of flynn and not because flynn is a good guy and a friend and a pal and loyal, but because flynn has lied. Lived a strong life. Lived a strong life, yeah. Not sure what that is. In 2000 2001, when you were working at wall street and i was a financial reporter, there were all these scandals. A bill came in that said a ceo or a senior officer of a company can no longer say they didnt know about the shenanigans that were happening below them. The buck stops with them. Does it matter that the president s lawyer, john dowd, comes out and says, i dictated that tweet to a third person. The point being, the president had nothing to do with the tweet. Well, it was as hague said about the 18. 5minute gap that was erased on the white house tapes, it was a Sinister Force. Was it a Sinister Force that tweeted this, or was it donald trump . Whose finger was on the button . It was Donald Trumps finger on the button. Did donald trump understand what he was doing . Did he read it . Now, it seems as though were seeing some suggestions if i read the papers correctly this morning, his lawyer is saying that donald trump probably knew that flynn had said the same thing to pence as he said to the fbi, which meant that he was telling something that was untrue. Im not sure i understand what kinds of machinations theyre now engaged in, to try to back off from what seems to be a strong suggestion of a coverup. But he is focusing the attack on Hillary Clinton. She wasnt sworn in. The president doesnt get it. You dont have to be sworn in. If you lie to the fbi, whether you raised your hand or you put your hand in your pocket, its a crime. He said this twice. I dont think he gets it. He thinks that just lying to the fbi is okay. Its not. Well, he also thinks that this thing is going to get wrapped up by years end. While President Trump might like to move Jeff Sessions out or might like to fire bob mueller, those dont look like things that are going to happen. But there are reports out there that congress could defund Robert Muellers efforts. Theyll spend 5 million. Some conservatives can say, theres smoke but i have yet to see fire. How realistic is it that congress could pull funding . If so, it is an expensive operation. Then what happens . To be clear, you wrote the initial you were part of the team that wrote the initial legislation to get a special prosecutor initially, which has evolved into the special counsel. Right. Could have been it was courtappointed then, so it made it harder to remove the special prosecutor. But could congress do it . I guess if they had the votes, if they can overcome a filibuster f t filibuster, if the senate allows a filibuster for Something Like this, maybe they could do it, but it would be a complete outrage. You have to let the criminal Justice System work its way. The idea that the president is suggesting that somehow there is a double standard here is outrageous. I mean, one of the things we try to do in Law Enforcement is to make sure there is a single standard, no matter how high you are. No matter how low you are. You still have to obey the law. The law applies to you equally. If they defund mueller, thats the biggest sign the republicans themselves think that the president of the United States is guilty. Interesting. I wonder how that would go over politically. Right now, there is not enough for a lot of republicans to get on the bandwagon versus trump, but i wonder whether theyre prepared to face the wrath of defunding Robert Mueller. It would be an outrage. Good to see you. Thank you for joining us. Liz holtzman, former new York Democratic congresswoman, part of the Judiciary Committee during watergate. Standby. The gop tax plan one step closer to President Trumps desk after the Senate Version passed this weekend. It would be the first overhaul of the tax code in more than 30 years. Republicans say it is going to pay for itself. Except theres no evidence to that. If were going to break down what the tax cuts would cost us, well go live with utahs republican congressman Chris Stewart. You are watching velshi ruhle live, where else, msnbc. Its the Phillips Lady anyone ever have occasional constipation,diarrhea, gas or bloating . She does. She does. Help defend against those digestive issues. Take Phillips Colon Health probiotic caps daily with three types of good bacteria. 400 likes . Wow try Phillips Colon Health. Welcome back to velshi ruhle. Republicans on capitol hill are beginni inning the process of mg the sweeping tax plans passed by the house and senate, reconciling the two wont be easy with big differences between them. The house version keeps obamacares individual mandate. The Senate Version repeals it. The house bill condenses seven tax brackets to four. The senate keeps the seven but lowers the top rate to 38. 5 . Also, the house caps the deduction for mortgage interest at 500,000. The Senate Leaves it alone. Either way, the president and republicans say their plans are going to mean a huge tax cut for the middle class and a huge boost to Economic Growth. For facts sake, most independent evaluations of the cut dont agree with the assessment. President trump and Congressional Republicans made a lot of promises about their tax plan. It is focused on the middle class. Its not. Wont benefit the rich. It will. It is bad for trumps family fortune. Not even close. They also claim, despite the 1. 4 trillion price tag, that the tax cuts will pay for themselves. Even more, they say it will actually help pay down the National Debt. How . By boosting Economic Growth so high, that government revenues will increase from taxes, even as businesses and households pay a smaller share of their incomes to the government. Numerous republicans say that tax cuts need only boost the economy by 0. 4 we are year to cover the price tag of their tax plan. How hard can it be . Apparently, really hard. There have been huge changes made to the tax code throughout u. S. History, yet weve seen no observable shift to longterm growth rates in the last 150 years. Which have hovered at an average rate between 1. 8 and 2 growth per year. Dont take our word for it. Studies by moodys and tpc all found that the congressional tax plans will increase u. S. Debt between 1. 3 trillion and 2. 1 trillion over a decade. Even the consecutive tax foundation, which is in favor of the gop plans, estimates between 500 billion and 1 trillion of additional debt. To a tee, they all say slashes taxes now while keeping Government Spending at current levels will widen a hole in the current budget. Dont believe them . A poll of 42 leading economists found not a single one thinks this tax plan will pay for itself. Tax cuts, any cut, sound great, but if were going to bust the bank to enact them, we should be honest about what theyre going to cost us. Now, gold man has come out with its assessment of the Senate Version of the tax cut, with respect to gdp growth. Basically, it says itll have a bit of a bump from the longterm trend in the 2 range, and then it reverts back to the trend, possibly even having a bit of a negative impact on gdp growth after 2020. A negative impact. Add 1 trillion in debt. The two are connected to each other. What the president and republicans keep promising may not actually come to pass. According to pretty much every study thats come out on this. Almost all studies. I want to bring in wed like to bring in republican congressman Chris Stewart of the state of utah. He serves oen t s on the House Appropriations and intelligence committees. One of the lastminute changes made to the senate bill before it passed saturday was to keep the alternative minimum tax that affects, obviously, the highest of high income earners and corporations. The house bill eliminates us. Why would this bill be put back in, and could it be a deal breaker . Yeah, i dont think it is a deal breaker. I dont think anything at this point is a deal breaker really. I think the republicans are so committed to giving tax reform and tax relief to the American People. I was listening to your analysis going into this, and theres so much of it that i disagree with. Like what . Lets go through it. Lets do it. But lets start with this, why is there so much resistance to allowing the American People to keep more of their money . Why is there so much resistance to trying to achieve better Economic Growth than weve had over the last seven or eight years . Thats the thing were trying to achieve here. You just heard it. I just quoted four studies, saying the Economic Growth, no one sees it coming to pass. Everyone sees addition to the deficit. Thats nuts to say no one sees the growth coming. Of course there are some who do. Now, the people you quoted said were not going to get goldman sachs. The tax foundation. I can assure you warton school. I can assure you i can list, and i could list, other reputable economists and studies. Theyll certainly get Economic Growth from this. Like whom . No question we will. American enterprise. The heritage foundation. Like our own independent studies coming out of the congressional budget office. Very clear when you cut taxes, you get Economic Growth in that. Look, you dont have to be an economist to understand this. It is common sense. If we have the highest Corporate Tax rate in the industrialized world, you have to know that thats not good for business. You know thats not true, right . When you talk about these groups you talk about, even they admit our Corporate Tax rate, the effective rate is 18. 5 , not 35 . Even if it wasnt, were still not the highest. It is one of the highest. It is higher than it should be. Look, i guess we could quibble over the details, and you could list this study and i could list another, but the American People want us to do this. Actually, so this is where i take issue with you, chris. Wait, wait. You have to let me finish a sentence here. Right. What i cant let you do is sort of pitch it. Youve listed a bunch of things you didnt agree with, so you have to let us question the things, right . Okay. Go ahead. You said the American People wanted us to do this. I dont remember in the coverage of the election anybody saying, cut Corporate Taxes. The Corporate Taxes are permanent. The individual taxes, the ones that go to the i can tell you ive met with thousands of constituents. I mean that really. Thousands of constituents. Who said, dont cut my taxes but cut torp rat tCorporate Tax . They do. Theyre smart enough to realize itll cause the economy to grow. Corporations look, theres three basic principles were trying to do here. Were simplifying taxes. We want people, the vast majority of them, to be able to do their taxes on a postcard sized sheet of paper. Sir that is a good thing. I 100 allow the American People to keep more of their hardearned income. It is a good thing. Were going to achieve Economic Growth. It is a good thing. First of all i dont know why you all oppose this. Lets start with something. I take issue with being referred to as you all, but well put it aside. Okay. Number two, were achieving Economic Growth. Lets supercharge it. I agree. We can agree on this. In terms of simplifying the tax code, what sim plification, what loophole is being closed for Corporate America . I agree, our tax rate is too high and too complicated. Lets lower it and close the loopholes. What loopholes for corporations are going to be closed . Oh, my gosh. There will be dozens. Like what . Im talking primarily please, sir, tell me one. With interest deductions. With expensing accounts. Theres all sorts of deductions. Tell me one. I just did. One example primarily of a loophole being closed. I just did. You didnt. Primarilprimarily, were foc the loopholes for individuals and simplifying for individuals. Im not arguing sir i need to finish my point. Okay. Why wouldnt we close the loophole for corporates . You have to lower the tax rate and get rid of the loophole. And broaden the base so everybody pays a lower rate. What loopholes are closed for corporates . If you do, youll lower the base and keep the loopholes so theyll end up paying less. Give me an example of one. Thats our point. For corporations to pay less. Thats the point. Thats how you get Economic Growth. Were not trying to achieve higher taxes on Corporate Taxes. Youre not asking my question. We want them to pay less. Look at the were trying to have the American People pay less. Were trying to simplify priai y primarily for the American People. We want to simplify taxes. Why is carried interest still in there . It is a loophole that even the financial industry assumed would be closed. The president said it would. Mnuchin, gary cohen, lavar alexander. Were going to agree on this, thankfully. We found something we agree on. I actually would support eliminating that. Tell me why it is still in there. Well, well see in the final bill if it is. But it is not in the house bill or the senate bill. Why not . Theres still compromises and still conversations going on. Lets wait and see. It is in neither bill. Were on the same side. This is not something youd be stuck on. The republicans in the house and the republicans in the senate didnt see fit to take away carried interest. Yet, tax rebates or tax reductions on people who earn less than 75,000 will sunset and go away. But corporate cuts are permanent. Again, i dont understand it, sir. Look at the performance in corporations over the last ten years. They have done spectacularly well. Money is basically free. Corporate profitability is very high. Why did they need goosing but the average american gets a sunset on their tax cuts . The average american is going to get a significant tax cut in this plan. The average corporation is going to get a significant tax cut in this plan. Why do you think thats a bad idea . Why do you think its a bad idea to simplify it . You keep saying the average let me ask you go respond to my question now. Why is that a bad idea . Who said it is a bad idea . Why are you fighting against it . Everything in your conversation indicates you think it is a bad idea. It is disingenuous. Why are you opposing the republicans on the plan if you support us in the goals . The average corporation is getting a tax cut that is permanent. The average taxpayer is getting a small tax cut that is temporary and will result in them paying higher taxes, starting two years from now. If we made those permanent for the American People as well as corporations then youd have a huge deficit. Would you support it . It tends to be a problem for republicans. If that is what youre objecting to, would you support us if we made it permanent for individuals, as well . No, you have to look at a few things. Thats my point. Why do you object to this . Oh, my heavens, this is simple. Congressman were cutting Corporate Taxes, peoples taxes and simplifying. Republicans used to care about deficits. You dont care to now. Estimates are between 500 million and 2 trillion in additional deficit. Thats after you use dynamic scoring and gop growth. So glad you brought that us. Work with us then to do additional cuts so we dont have a bigger deficit. The bottom line is, we dont have guarantees of that. My only concern, sir, is if your corporation would you work with us for additional cuts . Im not talking tax cuts. Im talking cuts in spending. Why are we getting corporations tax cuts when you cut things regular people use and not give them permanent tax cuts . Because it grows the economy. When this goes through and there is a trigger i youll see medicaid get a huge cut. Okay. Thats a positive for you . No, no. Of course not. When you add to the National Debt, youre going to cut programs. You guys are so fun. This is fun for me. Look, will you work with us then to cut spending so we dont have National Debt . I promise you, you guys havent been worried about our debt for a long, long time. Now with this corporate and individual tax cuts, you are . So lets talk about cutting spending. Will you work with us and agree that we need to cut spending so we dont explain that to me. So we dont have a deficit. Why can you not cut the Corporate Taxes . Are companies in america suffering . Because you have to grow the economy. Look at the stock market, it is record highs. It is going to grow the economy. Do you think all these companies that are at record high equity prices and record high profitability are going to somehow say, hey, we got a tax cut. What are we going to do, build another factory and employ more people . Of course, thats exactly right. You got the picture. Demand, consumer demand causes growth, sir. Bank of America Merrill lynch did a survey of ceos. When asked what theyd do with the additional money, they said buybacks and dividends. What happens to the money when it is paid out in dividends . It causes the economy to grow. Thats basic trickle down economics, which we dont really have a lot of evidence it works. When people have more money you see the experiment they tried in kansas . They had to reverse it. When people have more money to spend, it grows the economy. Thats a simple fact. All right. When regular people have more money, and theyre not getting more money out of this. How many people get dividends . Tens of millions of regular people. The stock market benefits mostly the wealthiest people in the country. Fun talking to you. I wish we had more we agreed on. Once again, you keep fighting, but were going to keep saying tax cuts for Middle America simplifies and grows the economy. Doesnt seem to be what this is. But we thank you for your time. Well see. Congressman Chris Stewart of utah is on the Appropriations Committee and intelligence committee. Standby, everyone. Supreme court is hearing arguments this week over a baker who refused to make a wedding cake for the samesex couple, citing religious beliefs. Can business discriminate against kcustomers based on sexual orientation, race or religion . Well speak live to the couple at the center of the suit in their first live tv interview. Stay with us. Youre watching velshi ruhle. Mike and i are both veterans, both served in the navy. I do outrank my husband, not just being in the military, but at home. She thinks shes the boss. She only had me by one grade. We bought our first home together in 2010. His family had used another insurance product but i was like well ive had usaa for a while, why dont we call and check the rates . It was an instant savings and i shouldve changed a long time ago. Theres no point in looking elsewhere really. Were the tenneys and were usaa members for life. Usaa. Get your insurance quote today. avo but you also have a higher risk of heart attack or stroke. Noninsulin victoza® lowers a1c, and now reduces cardiovascular risk. Victoza® lowers my a1c and blood sugar better than the leading branded pill. avo and for people with type 2 diabetes treating cardiovascular disease, victoza® is now approved to lower the risk of major cardiovascular events such as heart attack, stroke, or death. And while it isnt for weight loss, victoza® may help you lose some weight. avo victoza® is not for people with type 1 diabetes or diabetic ketoacidosis. 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We need to be ready for my names Scott Strenfel and r im a meteorologist at pg e. We make sure that our crews as well as our customers are prepared to how weather may impact their energy. So every single day were monitoring the weather, and when storm events arise our forecast get crews out ahead of the storm to minimize any outages. During storm season we want our customers to be ready and stay safe. Learn how you can be prepared at pge. Com beprepared. Together, were building a better california. Welcome back. You are watching velshi ru e ruhle on this monday. This week, the Supreme Court takes us one of the most closely watched cases this term. What happens when religious freedom collides with freedom from discrimination . Samesex couple, mullins and craig of denver, said a cake shop refused to make their wedding cake five years ago. The bakery owner said it is against his religion, forcing him to express views against his religious beliefs, violating his rights. Colorado courts ruled in favor of the couple. Now the Supreme Court takes up Phill Phillips appeal tomorrow. Mullins and craig joins us now for their first live interview. Gentlemen, welcome. I mean, did you ever guess, or were you hoping that this argument, this fight, would go this far . Well, hi. I think we want to start at the beginning here. You know, five and a half years ago, charlie and i were getting married. We were really excited. Like all couples getting married, we had a million details to finalize. On this particular day, it was really special. Charlies mom was in town for a business conference, and this was kind of her one chance to be involved in planning the wedding with us. So our reception planner suggested Masterpiece Cake shop to us. We looked at their website. Thought they looked good. So we made an appointment. We went in. Myself, charlie and his mother, deb. We went in and charlie was carrying this binder full of all these ideas and concepts that wed come up us. We never even got a chance to open it. As soon as we sat down with the owner, he asked who the cake was for. We told him it was for us. He immediately informed us that he would not make a cake for a samesex wedding. What followed was just this horrible pregnant pause, as what was happening sunk in. We were just mortified and humiliated. And the fact that charlies mother was there just made this all the worst. You dont want your mom to see you go through Something Like that. So very quickly, we gathered ourselves and we left. So hes written an oped in usa today this morning in which he sort of says, look, a cake is not a tower of flour. It is artistic expression. He has to believe in what he is doing. He said, the two men who came into my shop that day were living out their beliefs. All i did was attempt to live out mine. I respect their right to choose and hoped they would respect mine. What do you say to that . We were not in there asking for a piece of art. We were asking for food to serve at our wedding reception. You know, when youre open to the public, we feel like it is important that you serve the public equally. The conference of catholic bishops says, quote, there is more at stake in this case more than Jack Phillips must bake. It is about the freedom to live according to ones beliefs in daily life. Charlie, why dont private businesses or private individuals have that right . Right. So when a business decides to open its doors to the public, they need to serve the public equally. You know, this whole time, thats what weve been asking for. Just to be treated equally in the public. The reason why were here today is because weve heard so many stories of discrimination nationwide over the past five years. You know, were standing up for ourselves in this, but were also standing up for all these other people so they dont have to go through the same thing that we had to go through. What do you think and go ahead, david. I would also like to add that religious freedom is fundamental and essential to our country. Thats why it is protected in the constitution. But you cannot practice your faith in a way that denigrates others or excludes them from public life. Charlie, whats your sense of how this is going to go . Well, im not a lawyer, but i am excited. We are going to sit in on the argument. You know, it is very exciting to be able to witness, you know, such a landmark case. Guys, we will follow it closely. Thank you for taking the time to be with us this morning. Thank you. Thank you, as well. Standby, everybody. Were digging back into the russia investigation now that flynn is cooperating. Who is in President Trumps inner circle, and what could be next . 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Lyrica may cause serious allergic reactions, suicidal thoughts or actions. Tell your doctor right away if you have these, new or worse depression, unusual changes in mood or behavior, swelling, trouble breathing, rash, hives, blisters, muscle pain with fever, tired feeling, or blurry vision. Common side effects dizziness, sleepiness, weight gain, swelling of hands, legs and feet. Dont drink alcohol while taking lyrica. Dont drive or use machinery until you know how lyrica affects you. Those whove had a drug or alcohol problem may be more likely to misuse lyrica. With less pain, i can do more with my family. Talk to your doctor today. See if lyrica can help. Take a look at that, the dow is up 241 points. That is exactly 1 . It is not as high as its been today, but this is obviously on news of the tax bill passing in the senate. Needs to be reconciled with the house bill, something republicans would like done before the end of the year. With former National Security adviser Michael Flynn cooperating with muellers investigation, will another person in trumps inner circle flip . A reminder of which officials had contact with russia from the New York Times. At least eight people spoke with russian officials or Business People during the campaign and transition. Donald trump jr. , Jared Kushner, Michael Flynn, Jeff Sessions, paul manafort, Michael Cohen and former Campaign Advisers, George Papadopoulos and carter page. Two of those people, don junior and George Papadopoulos, were told the russians wanted to share damaging information about Hillary Clinton to help trumps campaign. Three people met with russians as a result of those conversations. Don junior, Jared Kushner and paul manafort. As part of muellers investigation, two former officials pleaded guilty to lying to the fbi about their conversations with russians. Michael flynn and George Papadopoulos. Two others were charged with crimes not linked to the campaign according to court documents. Paul manafort and former Campaign Adviser rick gates, who both pleaded not guilty. Joining us now is the former Deputy Assistant general from 2007 to 2009. He also served as a lawyer for george w. Bush. Tom, good to see you. What does the flynn guilty plea tell you about where mueller is in this investigation . Well, it tells me a few things. The first is that it tells me that mueller is probably getting near the end, at least of the people that he needs to talk to as an initial matter. Flynn is obviously fairly high up in the pecking order, and youve got to think that given the nature of this plea agreement, that mueller has what he wants from flynn. At this point, its muellers decision as to whether he has enough material and evidence now to indict additional people. Whether he needs more interviews or whether hes going to fold up his tent. All right. It is important to clarify that, that youre not saying Robert Mueller is almost done, finished, the russia investigation is over. What youre saying is, hes done with interviewing this first round of people, is that correct . Thats correct. I think that he still has a ways to go, but what my point is, in terms of the universe of people he needs to talk to, i think hes made at least initial contact with pretty much everyone he needs. The fact that hes already got this agreement in place with flynn tells me that hes fairly along in the process of where he needs to be. Stephanie just laid out the various overlapping, the eight people who sort of overlap and some talked to russians and some had meetings as a result and some clearly the june meeting, we know, there was some discussions about russian sanctions. The New York Times Editorial Board predicts the next person, the next obvious person to be swept up into the investigation is Jared Kushner because he played a key role in flynns communications with kislyak. You know, and other parts of it. What do you think of that . Well, were speculating at this point, of course. My sense is that in order to get someone to flip, there has to be some sort of underlying criminal liability or underlying criminal exposure. In other words, there is no need to flip if you havent done anything wrong. We dont know at this point what bob mueller knows. Keep in mind, when hes gotten these people to flip, its not on any underlying substantive offense concerning some sort of treasonous activity. It is false statements, perjury, obstruction. In other words, crimes that these people committed in connection with the investigation itself. Because we dont know what either kushner or other people have been saying to federal agents, what theyve been testifying to under oath, it is really hard to make a prediction as to who could be the next person to fall. Democrats are calling for it, but thats no prizsurprise. Your take on former adviser mcfarland. Theyre calling she should testify. It was revealed she wrote last december in an email that russia has, quote, thrown the president ial election for trump. The times points out it is not clear whether she believed the election had been, in fact, thrown. A white house lawyer told the times the comment meant only that democrats were painting russias role in the election that way. Whats your take on this email . My take, first of all, is id be very surprised if that were a statement of fact. My question would be, how the heck would she be in a position to make that sort of judgment . I will say this, given the email, i dont see any problem or concern with her speaking to bob mueller and his investiga investigato investigators. In fact, i think it can be helpful, for her to put the email in context, to say, yes, i sent this. Here is what i meant. And to field questions about what led her to write it, to frame the email and phrase the email as she did. I see no downside in her cooperating and talking with mueller and getting it out there in the open. Thats the difference. Democrats are saying they want her to testify. Speaking to mueller and testifying before congress are two different things. They are different things. I think in this case, i think both would be appropriate. If for some reason she cant testify in a public setting because there is classified information at stake, congress has the procedures to take her testify in closed setting. It would be salutary for her to talk to congress and mueller, to put the email, which is eye catche catching, into proper context. Many people are talking about the pardons the president can give out to people who are indicted or who pled guilty. Ultimately, there is a lot of study that has gone into the way mueller is doing this, in which hes sort of maybe not putting out charges there that various states can put in, so there isnt a double jeopardy issue, which means the president may not be able to pardon people because they may face state charges opposed to federal charges. Ill tell you this, bob mueller is smart. Bob mueller plays hardball. I strongly suspect, particularly with the team that mueller has assembled, who are very familiar with landscape of the criminal law, very familiar with the constitutional extent of the president s pardon power, that that is something that has occurred to bob mueller. And youre absolutely right, that although the president does have the power to pardon for federal offenses, that wouldnt necessarily get all these folks off the hook, to the extent they may face liability separately under state criminal law. Tom, good to talk to you. Thank you for joining us. Former Deputy Assistant, tom dupree. Ill say it again, you know who won the election . Lawyers. No kidding. Stick around, everyone. Right now, President Trump is on his way to utah, where he is set to make a big announcement on several National Monuments. Well tell you about his plans to dramatically reduce their size and make way for big business. Were also going to speak with former interior secretary under president obama, sally jewel. We want to hear from you on this issue. Tweet us at velshiruhle. I dont want to sound paranoid, but dya think our recent online sales success seems a little. Strange . Na. Ever since we switched to fedex ground business has been great. Theyre affordable and fast. Maybe too affordable and fast. What if. People arent buying these books online, but they are buying them to protect their secrets . . hi bill. If that is your real name. Its william actually. Hmph affordable, fast fedex ground. If yor crohns symptoms are holding you back, and your Current Treatment hasnt worked well enough, it may be time for a change. Ask your doctor about entyvio, the only biologic developed and approved just for uc and crohns. Entyvio works at the site of inflammation in the gi tract and is clinically proven to help many patients achieve both symptom relief and remission. Infusion and serious allergic reactions can happen during or after treatment. Entyvio may increase risk of infection, which can be serious. Pml, a rare, serious, potentially fatal brain infection caused by a virus may be possible. This condition has not been reported with entyvio. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, experience frequent infections or have flulike symptoms or sores. Liver problems can occur with entyvio. If your uc or crohns treatment isnt working for you, ask your gastroenterologist about entyvio. Entyvio. Relief and remission within reach. Welcome back to velshi and ruhle. Right now President Trump is traveling to utah where hes expected to dramatically shrink two National Monuments sites his predecessors tried to protect. They include bears ears monument said to houses tens of thousands from of cultural artifacts. It could be cut up to 92 and the Grand Staircase, home to dinosaur fossils. It could be cut by nearly half. It is a combined 3 million acres of once untouchable land and utah conservatives have lobbied hard to regain control of it. Joining us now former interior secretary under obama sally jewell who helped establish the monument during her tenure. Lets start. The administration claims utah needs the land back because cattle grazing is limited and its taking 3 million acres out of state. Its a power grab. Why dont these arguments make sense to you . They dont make sense because these have been federal lands all along. And the National Monument that was proclaimed by president obama and the one proclaimed by president clinton both honor valid existing rights including gragz privileges on these lands. To suggest these monument designations are taking away the ability of people to continue to earn their livelihood is not true. Take us into the minds of those who would not like this. The concept of Land Conservation has been with us for a long time. President trump asked the interior secretary to look at 27 different parcels of land that had been designated since 1996. He they were an ajeejious use of government power. Why would the government want to take these out of protected stat us . It is certainly not egregious use of federal power. This is something used by 16 president s, half democrat, half republican since the Antiquities Act which is the legislation was passed in 1906. So we have grand canyon because of the Antiquities Act. We have places Like Acadia National Park in maine or zion National Park in utah. So what happens is, a president has the ability to move quickly when assets are at risk. As they were in the case of Grand Staircase escas lan ta from the threats of significant mining activities and as they are in bears ears because of the desecration of sacred sites of looting and of additional threats from exploitation from oil, gas and mining to areas that are critical to native american tribes in the area and also areas of stunning Natural Beauty and wildlife habitat. President s have the had the authority to protect these through the Antiquities Act. It has never been appealed or rescinded and President Trump is taking actions never done before. The attorney general for the navratilova hole nation says theyve already got papers drawn up and theyre going to fight this and will have this trapped in gridlock for years and years. I think thats absolutely right. Theres no question that people will take legal action. And it will put the Antiquities Act to the test. This is all about politics in utah. The utah delegation and people generally that i have met with in the state dont like the fact that there are public lands. But these were granted to the public and set aside from state lands at statehood for utah. They have always belonged to allAmerican People. So trumps actions absolutely should be challenged in court and we believe that they are illegal because we believe based on subsequent legislation that the Antiquities Act is a oneway rasht. It protects lands and only congress canning undo those or in the case of acadia make these National Parks. So many of the places we take for granted today as being iconic places we visit were actually set aside by president s using the Antiquities Act over our nations history. The Washington Post got hold of a report by the new interior secretary over the summer that listed the two sites among six to shrink, also sites in oregon, california, and in the Pacific Ocean zinke says are needed for commercial fishing and timber. Whats the response to that argument . That argument is nonsense. First, the marn interNational Monument first set aside by president george w. Bush and further expanded by president obama was designated because of the risk of commercial fishing to the incredible biodiversity, Marine Biodiversity we have in that part of the pacific. Likewise off the atlantic ocean, the northeast canyons and sea mounts are areas of extreme importance from an environmental standpoint that are at risk of commercial fishing or overexploitation which weve seen in fisheries around the world. In california, the monuments there are not significant to Mining Industries but are very important to Cultural Resources and preservation for habitat and human visitation. So all of them have their story. We wouldnt have taken monument action if they werent critical to be protected. Foper secretary of the interior sally jewell, thanks very much for joining us this morning. I am a National Monument enthusiast. I love the ocean. Its time for monumental americans where we spotlight people who may deserve a statue of their own. Today its ella baker. She was born in 1903 in norfolk, virginia and began work as a journalist in 1929 writing for africanamerican publications and encouraging black economic development. In 1938, she began her long naacp. She became the director of branchs in 1943, the highest ranking woman in the organization. She traveled the south and organized civil rights activists. She died in 1986 in new york city. To honor her legacy, the had Ella Baker Center was founded in california in 1996. A life well lived. If you have a monumental american, wed love to feature him or her on the show. Send us a tweet velshi and ruhle. That brings us to an end. Im al have i velshi. Ill see you back here at 3 00 p. M. Eastern. We hand off to Andrea Mitchell for Andrea Mitchell reports. Stand by his man. President Trump Defends his former National Security adviser who pleaded guilty to lying to the fbi, trying to turn it into a false claim against Hillary Clinton. I sal say this, Hillary Clinton lied many times to the fbi. Nothing happened to her. Flynn lied and they destroyed his life. Think its a shame. Tale of the tweet. The president s lawyer says he wrote the president s controversial tweet this weekend which some call evidence of obstruction of justice. I see it most importantly in what happened with the firing of director comey, and it is my leaf that that is directly because he did not agree to