American people. But now President Trump says its another country, lets say russia or china or his words, norway, offers him information on an opponent in 2020, he thinks he would take it. If foreigners or russia or china offers you information on your opponent, should they accept it or call the fbi . I think maybe you do both. I think you might want to listen. I dont think theres nothing wrong with listening. If somebody called from a country norway, we have information on your country, i think we want to hear it. Isnt that interference . Its not interference. I think i would take it. If something is wrong, we go to the fbi. If somebody comes up with Oppo Research, oh, lets call the fbi. The fbi doesnt have enough agents to take care of it. You go and talk honestly to congressman, they all do it, they always have. Its called Oppo Research. Thats not quite right. We will get into what Oppo Research actually is in a movement but its also very important to remember that it is illegal for a candidate to get anything of value from a foreign power, so think about it. Research that helps you win a president ial election would certainly and considered valuable. Very valuable. Peter alexander is at the white house. Peter, what are we hearing from the administration about all of this . Yeah, you know, stephanie in this case again it is President Trump speaking as the administration. Strikingly he said there would be nothing wrong with accepting damaging information from a Foreign Government. He said he wouldnt necessarily call the fbi. The president in that interview also notably challenges fbi director Christopher Wray saying he was wrong, and when politicians who receive help from a Foreign Government should call the fbi. In a way none of this is surprising. We knew he and those around him asked for and accepted help in 2016. Remember this russia, if youre listening, i hope youre able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing. I think you will probably be rewarded mightily by our pris. Then he said russia, if youre listening, and russia or china if youre still listening, and heres where he said he never asked for help from roush. Take a listen. Can you imagine me saying i dont know what to do. Gee, lets call the russians. Lets see if they can help. Can you believe the stupidity of this . Lets call the russians. There was no collusion whatsoever. There never has been. The last thing i want is help from russia on a skpcampaign. Its clear this morning the president is a bit defensive recognizing the backlash in terms of the tension given to the recent comments in his interview. Hes tweeting as we speak. Lets put it up on the screen. As you read along with me, you will see how the president is sort of trying to change the narrative here. He said i meet and talk to Foreign Governments every day. I just met with the queen of england, prince of whales, which he smells wrong, p. M. Of United Kingdom and p. M. Of ireland and pole laund. We talk about everything. Should i immediately call the media and awe discuss this . That would be crazy. We talked about everything. This is being played by the fake media. They leave out what matters. You see he was specifically asked not about conversation with Foreign Governments but Foreign Governments asking information, damaging information on political rivals. You already detailed the significance of this here but the president is trying to say basically i was misquoted and trying to cast like nothing, we shouldnt have conversation with foreign leaders. We know thats not a good point. What is a good point is most stunning with the latest comments is it should now be abundantly clear donald trump, sitting president of the united states, cannot ensure a Fair Election in 2020. Its quite amazing, the president again basically saying no biggie. Its not surprise many parts of the media are outraged. Theyre shocked. I want to point out Laura Ingraham of fox news, whose podcast is sponsored by President Trumps 2020 committee, said shes baffled by the president s comments. Laura ingraham and plenty of other people as well. Thank you so much. We have assembled a terrific group to figure what its about. White house report for blx news, Cynthia Oxley who worked in the criminal justice civil rights division, greg brower, former u. S. Attorney and director for fbi office of Congressional Affairs under jim comey. Barrett burger served as a officer for the southern and eastern districts of new york and peter wehner worked in the past three public administrations and author of the new book the death of politics. My friend basil smikle is strategist and former director of the new york state democratic party. Weve got a full house because we have a lot to get to. Shannon, help us. How do you juxtapose years to say he would never work with russia to win an election is suddenly saying, yep, he would be open to work with russia or any other foreign country to win an election . I know a lot of people are surprised by this. I think it almost fits with the pattern because this president doesnt admit when he made a mistake or anything was ever done wrong. If he said that in 2020 the appropriate thing would be to call the fbi or notify them russia reached out to the campaign, that would be admitting they did something wrong in 2016 when that happened. But i dont think they fully thought through the implications of this. It goes two ways and if hes now telling Foreign Governments theres nothing wrong if want to reach out to my campaign, if you want to reach out to an opponents campaign, because there are many Foreign Governments collecting information on President Donald Trump by essentially inviting that, he does open himself to the risk you will have foreign interference in the election and this time it might not be directed at helping you. It could be directed to helping your opponents. Lets look at the basic issues. The president told the American People last night theres nothing wrong with this. You can get information, helps you win an election. He calls that opposition research. He said they all do it. And people at home could believe it. Theres a few problems with that, right . Every parent knows the excuse everyone is doing it, it doesnt hold any water. Similar situation here, if every member of congress is doing it, that still doesnt make it right. But if theres no punishment, i promise my kids will do it. Thats exactly right. There has to be accountability and there are regulations like you said right in the beginning that pro hint candidates of getting anything of value from foirn governments for the very basic reason we dont want to have Foreign Governments or foreign pauschowers interfering our election if we dont know about it. Its a matter of transparency. What are the consequences . The consequences has to be exactly as chris Christopher Wray said, they are not allowed to do it. But are there consequences . Unfortunately the president doesnt think there is any consequence, despite the mueller investigation, he thinks this is a jet out get out of jail free because he hasnt faced any consequences. Lets play what the fbi director Christopher Wray. And wr and remember President Trump chose chris wray. I think if any official or member of my campaign is contacted by any nation state or anybody acting on behalf of a nation state or interfering or influencing our election, thats something the fbi would want to know about. Put yourself in position, youre a congressman, somebody comes up and says hey, i have information on your opponent, do you call the fbi . I dont think i have seen a lot of things in my whole life. I dont think i ever called the fbi in my life. You throw somebody out of your Office Al Gore called for a stolen briefing. But this is different. We have information on your opponent. Oh, let me call the fbi. Give me a break. The law doesnt work that way. The fbi director says that is what should is happened. The fbi director is wrong. Youre the liaison to the fbi. Christopher wray said it was wrong. Please explain why the fbi would need to know this kind of information. This is essential, stephanie, in the fbis fight, counterintelligence fight against foreign influence. A new effort thats not new but a new Foreign Influence Task force was set up by director wray recently. I can tell you its very, very busy. So for a candidate to to receive an overture from a foreign power offering help and not report that to the fbi is as suggested by the director a dereliction of duty to actually accept such help could be a felony. This is a clear case of the fbi director being absolutely right. The president is absolutely wrong. But its a pattern i would submit that weve seen over time, a pattern that weve seen over the campaign, a pattern that frankly caused the president s sewn Deputy Attorney general Rod Rosenstein to appoint a special counsel to investigate. This investigation, i think we all understand, most of us do, its not a hoax or witchhunt, predicated in part to this exact pattern of conduct that the president seemed to confirm with his mindset with comments yesterday. Cynthia, some of the president s defenders have already said its a hypothetical he was presenting. He hasnt done anything wrong. Whats your response to that . My response is i dont know why we were all surprised by this. This is exactly what the president s family has been previewing. Don jr. And kushner basically said they would take this information. They took the meeting and there have been no consequences at all. The lesson the president has learned he can can do this with impunity. The congress apparently wants to se send letters back and forth that are feckless. Until they go to court to deal with the wishes who refuse to show up and people who refuse to produce documents, the president will continue to do this. Nobody should be surprised because its like training a puppy. At some point you have to do something when the puppy pees in the house and they do nothing. Wow, democrats, i think cynthia just told you the puppy peed in your house. Now Oppo Research, when the president says this is how Oppo Research works. Tell us what that is and how it should work. Oppo research is generally collecting information about your opponent. It is nasty dirt. It can be but doesnt have to be. Every campaign from the president to city council does some kind of opposition research. Youre largely getting information thats already out there. Public information. Public information. We dont go about asking Foreign Governments to spy on american citizens. There are occasions where some people may come to campaign and say hey, i have something on your opponent but youre constantly making decisions on is this information impactful . Is it important to us . Are we crossing the line . Is the messenger credible . You have to develop some kind of consciousness and campaigns to generally have that. This tornado are completely different. I know i turned for you for history and decency. You worked for the last three republican president s and worked in politics for decades. When the president said everybody does this thing, its just the way it is. Whats your response to that . Its nonsense and not true. I want to say one thing that was striking to me and listening to the answer it was a window into the inverted moral world of donald trump. What he was arguing is what helps me is by definition right and what hurts my opponent should be done and what hurts me is by the definition of wrong. That is the ethical construct in which he operates on. Its a kind of moral narcissism. We see it in this issue but we see it in all issues and thats the danger. If you get a person with that kind of distorted world with the tremendous power of the president with great damage to the country, this guy is a daily battery ram against norms, ethics and integrity. I had a conversation with a friend years ago when he was asking about donald trump and i said the thing to understand is theres no bottom with him. When theres no bottom, theres no bottom. And were seeing that on a weekly basis. Wow, peter, gosh, were going to end this segment on a dark note. We have a lot more to cover. We have breaking news to get to. U. S. Navy rushing to help two burning oil tankers apparently attacked off the coast of iran in the gulf of amman. Richard engel is monitoring the situation from istanbul. Richard, what is going on . Well, its hard to know exactly whats going on at this stage. A very mysterious and dangerous incident happened this morning right next to the straits of hormuz. According to multiple reports there were explosions on these two oil tankers. One was carrying methanol. The other was carrying a petroleum product. They were both according to japanese officials carrying products, quote, linked to japan. And around 6 00 this morning as they were pass, just leaving the straits of hormuz, there was this explosion. According to one ship manager of the at least one of the ships was hit either by a shell or even potentially a torpedo. There were about 40 crew members, all of them appear to be safely, they evacuated ship. All appear to be safely recovered and now there are multiple investigations under way as to what caused these explosions. This is being treated as it was a deliberate attack on two ships in fairly close timing and proximity. Happened around 6 00 in the morning the first one and the other around 6 45. So just about 45 minutes later. This the uss bainbridge, part of the fifth fleet based in bahrain was in the area and responded. Said it received two distress calls and responded to provide assistance. Now the question, who was behind this . The u. S. Officials have said in the past that they believe iran is trying to stir up problems. This incident happening right off the iranian coast and it is also one month since a fairly similar incident happened when four oil tankers were hit by it appears at this stage more minor sabotage attacks and the u. S. Blamed those sabotage attacks on iran. Iran said it was not responsible. The reason i mentioned earlier these ships were carrying cargo linked to japan, that could be quite significant. Both of these suspected attacks happened just as the japanese Prime Minister shinzo abe was in iran and had just met with the countrys Supreme Leader in an effort to try to lessen tensions which had been particularly high since the explosions a month ago. As the japanese Prime Minister is there meeting with iranian officials, two ships not far away carrying iranianlinked Petroleum Products find themselves in a possible act of espionage. Richard engel, please keep us updated. We have quite a news day. When we come back, more breaking news. House Intelligence Committee just subpoenaed former adviser Michael Flynn and former Trump Campaign aide rick gates. We will have more on that and much more on the president s stunning admission he would in fact accept foreign information on a political opponent. Why one former congressman thinks that statement alone thinks its time to impeach President Trump. [ paper rustling ] exactly, nothing. Theyre completely different people, thats why they need customized Car Insurance from liberty mutual. Theyll only pay for what they need [ gargling ] [ coins hitting the desk ] yes, and they could save a ton. Youve done it again, limu. Only pay for what you need. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Here are even more reasons to join tmobile. 1. Do you like netflix . Sure you do. Thats why its on us. 2. Unlimited data. Use as much as you want, when you want. 3. No surprises on your bill. Taxes and fees included. Still think you have a better deal . Bring in your discount, and well match it. Thats right. Tmobile will match your discount. Adam schiff just reacted to the president s comments about foreign interference. The president learned nothing for the past two years or picked up exactly the wrong lesson he can accept legally foreign assistance again. Theres no claiming ignorance of the law anymore. We will continue digging into this. Basil, as stunning as the 400page report was, theres confusion around it, most people havent read it and confusion how to handle it. With the president s recent admission, does this change the game for the democrats to get clear and more aggressive . I think so. I have been resisting it before because i understand nancy pelosi was trying to protect her members and those who flipped red seats. But the truth is so Many Democrats have come up to me in the streets the last couple of days to beg the democrats to do something to hold this president accountable. I have been balanced before but i think we need to go into impeachment. As an africanamerican voter and black man in this country, i dont have the luxury of having power and not using it. I have to use everything i got to go after everything i want the voters are welcoming at the democrats to do exactly right. Hold this president accountable, throw everything you have at him because the steaks are takes ar. We need him out of office. And last night a republican david jolly was on the network speaking to Brian Williams but speaking directly to nancy pelosi. Watch this. I think the president s moment what he said behind the resolute desk is impeachable. The eyes of the moment must look to nancy pelosi. Its not her fault this moment occurred. She has not had a hand in Donald Trumps behavior but she occupies the highest Constitutional Office outside of the white house. This is the moment were begging for leadership. Peter, you said impeachment would turn President Trump into a martyr for his supporters. Have you changed your opinion . Well, no. Yes and no. Let me explain. It would turn him into a martyr. We have to accept the fact he wont be dislodged from office even if the senate impeached. That doesnt mean you shouldnt impeach him. Theres an argument for institutional accountability and force congress to say there are some acts there has to be accountability for. Not necessarily that theyre going to get rid of him. But that is a factor in the 2020 election. I have been resistant to impeachment, not fully against it. But if donald trump keeps crashing through these norms and doing things and forcing the hand of people who dont want to act that way and im now persuaded impeachment for the issue of accountability and institution of congress to say we will oversee this and we wont let him get away with it with no cost. That they need to act. We need legal expertise. Greg, whats your take . Yesterday morning you may recall i referenced the tone at the top being flawed, if you will, with respect to the russian threat and threat by other adversaries to interfere with our elections. Little did we know after that comment i made to you yesterday morning that the president would say what he did, but lets look at the National Security implication of this comment, in this pattern of conduct. This really presents by no less than the commander of chief in the use a flashing green light to our adversaries who are interested in interfering with our democracy. Why wouldnt they try to do everything they can with the backdrop of comments like that . And so, again, i would echo what others have said. The comments were not all of that surprising because theres been a pattern now going back a couple of years. But what is surprising to me is the silence from the republican side on capitol hill. When will more than one house member stand up and say, if nothing else, this reality is presenting a significant National Security problem and we need to talk about it and potentially do something about it. When will that happen . I ask you, peter, you have been a republican for decades but last week when the president was overseas, he reminded his fellow republicans, he said look at my popularity. Look at the polls. Do you really want to go against me . No, thats a great question. The answer is theres virtually nothing donald trump can do or will do that will turn republicans against him. There is a kind of cult personalty that happened. They threw their hat early over the wall with donald trump. And i think, you know, they made a deal with the devil to in their mind would be satan would be democrats and liberals, and its coming as a tremendous cost to them, not just moral but political. Hes such a toxic figure, especially with younger voters, this will come back to haupt them. When donald trump said something in the campaign he can shoot something on fifth avenue and not lose support, he may be literally and not just figuratively correct. The hold donald trump had at the base of his party is arguably deeper than Ronald Reagan had. That is a stunning thing to see and a really despiriting thing to say. But the base of his party might stand with him no matter what but there might not be enough of them to elect him in 2020. A lot of talk about polls this week. George stephanopoulos was talking polls with the president. I want to share some of that. Even your own polls show youre behind now, dont they . No. Reports 15 out of 17 states, you were lower. Nobody showed you those polls because those polls dont exist. Im losing in 15 out of 17 states . Those polls dont exist. I was just given a meeting with my pollster, and frankly i dont even believe in pollsters if you want to know the truth, you just run the campaign and whatever it is, it is but i just had a meeting with someone who is a pollster and im winning everywhere. The president then wanted to go off the record to call his campaign record. Then the second portion of the interview, it was two days later, they were still talking polls. Why does it bother you so much . Because its untrue. I like the truth. Im an honest guy. If i thought they were correct, i wouldnt be complaining at all. I understand that. Its like the witchhunt that goes on. The Washington Post at this point said the president has told 10,000 lies since in office, so is this to be expected . Absolutely. I think this is why, and i go back to the nancy pelosi, sometimes are in their head and we have to start acting with our hearts and emotions. You dont think democrats are emotional . No, i think the Party Sometimes we think through things too much and dont engage and tap into the counter raw emotion in a different way than donald trump did but in many ways similar. Because there is an opportunity to motivate voters in ways that democrats may not have ever been before, because of the presidency of donald trump. We need to open up those new battle fronts. I obviously completely disagree with him about the polling. It is on our side and i think we need to tap into that. I think you tapped into emotions. Youre saying its time to take a swing. Absolutely. Basil, peter, thank you very much. We have so much more to get to. Rick gates and Michael Flynn subpoenaed by the house Intelligence Committee. This after the president out of nowhere tweeted applauding flynns new lawyer saying hes excellent, fantastic. Why on earth would the president be doing that . She, excuse me. We have a lot more to dig into. Do not go anywhere. 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Were talking about former Deputy Campaign manager rick gase and former National Security adviser mike flynn. I want to bring back shannon, Cynthia Oxley and betit berger. Shannon, please explain whats going on here because were in the midst of a dozen subpoenas. I think theres one thing he can provide to investigations and that is if the question dangled pardons as an attempt to obstruct the investigation. Muellers report said manafort told gates his lawyers would take care of him. Manafort conveyed the message that the president would pardon them, get them off, either though neither said the word pardon there. Thats one thing to keep in mind with gates. I do think too the white house has been able to block a lot of these witnesses from testifying before the committee with mcghan, they will probably be able to assert executive privilege and issues with hope hicks. But they cant stop anyone talking about time in the campaign and it will be difficult to stop anyone talking about time in the transition. So they have not do much to stop mike flynn and rick gates from testifying. We talked about this before. The list gets longer, don mcgahn, wilber ross, rick gates, they get subpoenaed right and left and end up at bird cage liners. I think these are smart though because these people awaiting sentencing, particularly flynns case, he expects to see cooperation and he wants to see more. It puts flynn in a tough position. Its interesting the president , who treated this morning his support for flynn, almost dangling another pardon. And remember keeping this in context, flynn is the one that dowd called flynns lawyer before and dangled the other pardon. Clearly trump things flynn has very damaging information. This is smart by the House Committee to do this. I will agree with you though, i find it infuriating that all of these other people are getting subpoenas and theyre doing nothing about it. It makes my blood boil that theyre not in court and they need to do it right now. A dangling pardon could be enticing, but so can leniency. In flynns case specifically, adam schiff has suggested flynn could get a break if he testifies. Thats clearer than a voicemail from dowd a year and a half ago. Youre exactly right. These are two witnesses that are in a very different posture that other witnesses called by congress. Theyre still cooperating with the government. They still have this hammer hanging over their heads with a potential sentence. You remember at flynns last appearance before the judge, when the judge was about to sentence him, it didnt seem to go as well as they thought it would go. The judge took a break and said i need to you go back and do a little more. You need to continue cooperating. Its a real threat hanging over them. They have an added insensitive to be cooperative with the house and provide testimony. I think you will see a very different picture with them. Shannon, the president didnt just send a tweet supporting mike flynn, he gave a shot out to flynns new lawyer, sidney powell. Tell us who she is. President trump said shes a great lawyer. Shes one of the fiercest critics of the mueller investigation. She actually sells tshirts criticizing the mueller investigation. Hold on, one more time, Michael Flynns attorney sells tshirts that criticizes Robert Mueller . Yes, and the investigation. So if you want, you can find a mueller tshirt you can buy. Shes a very strong critic of this. And a lot of people thinks that signal maybe flynn will take a tougher approach to fighting back his guilty plea. That lob very difficult. As cynthia just mentioned or one of your guests just mentioned, this just signaled hes not interested in entertaining any argument about flynn being entrapped or how flynn had been unfairly treated by the fbi. It also could signal i put this out there too we have seen some witnesses change lawyers when they cant pay their legal bills and her as someone whos been a real poepts of the investigation and talk proponents of the investigation and might be doing it at a pro bono rate. Could be pro bono. Attorney at law, tshirt person. Side hustle. Thank you so much. We have a lot more to cover. Reaction is still streaming in to the new interview President Trump did with abc. While we were watching the senate floor, we will hear from people all over the hill. We will have that coming up. And right now the house is holding a hearing of the election threat, the National Security threat, deep fake technology. The ability to create videos showing anyone saying whatever you want. 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I said no, youre not. And she grabs my face and goes 4 1 2 that was also kind of a schwarzenegger a little bit. Im 4 1 2, father isnt that funny . Isnt that cool . Did you see it . When you watch closely, bill haders face slowly starts to move into Arnold Schwarzeneggers face. That video was created by an artist from the czech republic. Just took him a few days to make and, get this, cost him nothing. He uses Free Software online anybody can get. Joining me the best possible person, im so honored hes is, nbc security analyst and former facebook chief Security Officer, alex stamos. He knows best. Im very concerned, theres another video with Mark Zuckerberg of all people giving serious advice on deepfake videos. But you say the best thing is not take them down. Yes, they are really sophisticated but we are seeing an emergence of a whole new set of types of information that are powered by the misleading use of video. And that misleading use does not have to include something as advanced as a bill hader video. Earlier we saw this coventry video with a High School Student and american native activist. Theres no materials to suggest they were fake. But somebody was able to cut and paste. But thats always existed. Yes, and were finding people are finding the power to use video. In some issues i think deepfakes are a little overblown in that. Deepfakes themselves because they are invented have specific technical indicators theyre faked. If something that is obviously that faked, theres a way to push back. Im a little more concerned about the subtle implementation. The nancy pelosi video a few weeks ago, thats something my 12yearold could do an imovie. Thats not the manipulation you saw on the video. Those types are very, very common and insuddenous because its difficult to pushback on something that is much more subtle. Your 12yearold could create that video, but you know what, he or she cant put it on nbc because we have legal and standards and best practices. Facebook does not. So is it the technology and creation of these videos or platforms allow it . Once its up there, it takes a while to get it done. Its already been spread. Yes. First what the Company Needs to do, taking it down is just one thing. We saw this in the christchurch video, that was rightfully taken down. That was a video that showed the murder of individuals and calling for more violence. But in doing so they generated a pushback of 1. 5 Million People trying to reupload the video in the next 24 hours. When you completely censure a video, i think its less effective than labeling it as misleading. Thats something we are making a suggestion at our group at stanford is the Companies Need to be willing to mislablabel ths misleading. But the fact check project, one of the things with nancy pelosi, it took a long time because they were waiting for a factchecking partner to state it was a disputed fact. But that video was modified in a miss way. That was obvious. But we dont selfpolice or selfregulate. It just doesnt happen that way. What does the government need to do . We know theres a hearing going on right now. Right, theres a hearing and i think its important for the government to talk about this. The thing is most of these things are legally protected speech. The pelosi video was the same thing, shown on fox business by lou dobbs. Fox is allowed to do that because we give a huge amount of leeway to people to make fun of politicians, even using this misleading video. I dont think we will see legislation around this. I think we need a selfregulatory model and we should expect more from the companies. Its good for congress to talk about it because we need people like the fooib foreign influencer task force, dhf task force to look for this behavior in 2020 and point out to the companies that companies have to build the technology and tools to reduce the spread of them and label these videos so if youre able to see the bill hader video you know this is something, i can laugh at it and label the pelosi video, people dont take it as something serious. They have got the resources. They need the will. Thank you very much. Up next much more on the stunning admission he would listen from a forch source on a political opponent. Those political opponents better known as the 2020 democratic contenders are responding. Well have what they said next. Make fitness routine with pure protein. High protein. Low sugar. Tastes great high protein. Low sugar. So good high protein. Low sugar. Mmmm, birthday cake pure protein. The best combination for every fitness routine. He is yet again open to the idea of working with Foreign Governments to undermine the integrity of our election system. Its outrageous. Are you concerned . Do you feel like your campaign is secure . Im very concerned. That, of course, was 2020 candidate Kamala Harris reacting to President Trumps remarks about his interest in foreign election help. Part of my conversation with her last night right after the story broke, and it did not take long for more democrats to react to trump. Lawmakers and 2020 hopefuls took to social media and called trumps words disgraceful and argued it was more reason to begin impeachment proceedings. I want to bring back peter wayner and basil smikle. That foreign interference, as the president calls it, opposition research, would be information that would hurt people like Kamala Harris. How do the 2020 candidates play this out over the next week . Well, Campaign Security is very important which Kamala Harris did talk about. I think constantly calling attention to this at every stop they go to on a campaign trail to basically prime the voter to say, you know what, make sure that whatever information that you get is coming out of my mouth and direct from the campaign. Dont make sure youre not believing everything that you see right at first blush because we have to i think be more vigilant. Truthfully, i think calling republicans to this pulling their coattails and holding them accountable is going to be extraordinarily important. Thats why when joe biden makes certain comments about working with republicans, the voters bristle a little bit because theyre not collaborators. Theyre enablers. As long as hold on. One more time who is the they . The republicans that joe biden talks about working with. Voters sees them more as enablers than collaborators. If you have a president saying that we want to invite Foreign Governments to spy on candidates, theyre not so concerned about russian interference based on his actions and his words, then its going to be hard to convince voters and certainly i would feel that the candidates are going to be reluctant to go out on the trail to say we need to work with all these people when theyre actually having a hand in hurting the work that were trying to get done. More and more voters around the country dont care so much about politics. Their number one gripe is that the government doesnt work. So what position does that put politicians in, peter, if youre saying, nope, im not working with anyone when you know youve got to get some level of cooperation to get anything done . Thats the problem. I wrote a book called the death of politics because i think were at a very low moment in part because of donald trump. I dont think all the problems can be ascribed to him, but hes amplified them. Look, i want to make one other point about this. The blast radius of donald trump as a person. The democrats really do face a problem. As somebody said in an earlier segment, trump has essentially given a green light to foreign powers to intervene in the election. Theyve already shown they are open to collusion. That was the trump tower meeting itself. So if youre a democrat, you want do have security and you want to call attention to whats going on and you hope that the public will respond to it. But there can also be a mutually assured destruction mindset that kicks in. The democrats say, look, if hes going to play by those rules, then we have to, too. Why dont we get foreign powers to get in and try to hack the Trump Campaign and see what kind of information we can get there. Then you begin to spiral down and then there are just no limits. When i talk about the civic and political damage that somebody like donald trump does, thats the kind of thing that happens. If you amplify that 100 times in 100 different areas, you can see the kind of damage that he does to our politics and our country. Yes, but for Many Democrats they feel like we need to Start Playing dirty because we feel like fools. Go away from donald trump and Mitch Mcconnell is the perfect example. Barack obama wins the presidency and Mitch Mcconnell leans back and says, good luck, im going to block you for the next eight years. There is an element of that. Youre absolutely right that there is this sense we have to get in the dirt with him and with republicans. Ultimately i dont know if that exactly is a winning strategy, but we have to be tougher, we have to look tougher. We cant kowtow to a bully. My concern is thats with also enabling young people who are coming up in this business to have this view of what government is and what politics is. I have to disabuse my students all the time about what is and should be done versus what theyre seeing all the time. Thats whats going to be really difficult going forward. Its not just about this campaign. When you say democrats need to step up, what were facing is shamelessness. I think fundamentally what has to happen is the public has to decide that the way trump practices politics, there has to be a cost to it. This is what i argue in my book. You cant be cynical about politics, you cant give up on it. Ultimately the way that this has got to play out is the American People have to decide that there are some values, some virtues that we care enough about that we will defend. When those are taken away, were going to gain them back. Its ultimately going to be the public that has the say on this and politics will follow. It sounds pollyannish. If you put respect and decency first, i truly believe everybody wins. Gentlemen, thank you so much. I told you at the top of the show it was quite a news day. It certainly is. Thank you both. That wraps us up this hour. Im stephanie ruhle. Ill see you on social media with a special good news ruhles. Now i hand you off to a dear friend, ms. Hallie jackson. You came back for some news. Sure did, steph. Good to be back with you, good to be back today for sure. I am Hallie Jackson in washington. Norway, if youre listening, the president is open to dirt from you, from others, from any Foreign Government on his 2020 opponents. That means the pressure is now on House Speaker nancy pelosi as we expect her first oncamera reaction this hour to this interview airing on abc news. Your campaign this time around, if foreigners, if russia, china, someone else offers you information on opponents, should they accept it or call the fbi . I think maybe you do both. I think you might want to listen. Theres nothing wrong with