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Already. It is a few days, after all. They violated one of the worst deals ive ever seen negotiated at any level. This is the dumbest agreement i think ive ever seen. If i become president , im going to renegotiate our trade deals, because our trade deals are not sustainable by this country. Drain the swamp in washington, d. C. We are going to renegotiate our terrible trade deals. In pompeo, he gets his iran hawk, and in cohn he gets a clear deal to dismantling trade deals around the world. In gina haspel, he gets someone with a hardline past on terrorism and torture. Which if you were following the campaign, youll remember donald trump wants. Would i approve waterboarding . You bet your ass i would approve it. When you get these terrorists, you have to take out their families. They care about their lives, but they say they dont care about their lives. You have to take out their families. Which leads us to our big question. What else is donald trump getting out of this shake up and what more could come . Again, the nowoutgoing secretary of state will be briefing reporters on camera in just a moment. Should be interesting. But first, lets get to our reporters and experts. Chris matthews, host of hardball, is with here with me. Chris, ill start with you, before i get to everybody else. What do we think is happening . Is this a president who is deciding hes going to do things his own way, no matter what . You know, he wants to have everyone understand that hes the boss, theres no one around him, theres no team of rivals, theres no negotiates or c consiglie consiglieres, its him. He did it in the campaign. Remember how he was upset that people were giving steve bannon credit for the campaign you covered. He didnt want anyone getting credit, his socalled strategists. Same with economic policy, he didnt want gary cohn involved in it. Get rid of cohn, hes gone. Now he wants to be the leader of the free world, doesnt want to have anyone as a foreign minister or a secretary of state. Its all going to be him. I think the scary thing about this, of course, is he did campaign on a couple of things. And one of them was no stupid wars. Whats the alternative to the Iranian Nuclear deal . Whats the alternative . They continue making the Nuclear Weapons, they go back on what they were doing . And then we go to woar with him . Thats the dangerous part of it. If he goes to pompeo to a hawkish position on iran, whats that going to look like . That looks to me like a stupid war in the works. This was what people were worried about when the administration was coming in. Right before the inauguration, when they were figuring out who was going to be in which cabinet position and while mike flynn was still the nsa, there was real concern that iran was going to be in the crosshairs. All of these iran hawks who agreed with donald trump about ripping up that deal, who did not trust iran. There was concern that the first headline theyd see out of this administration would be donald trump confronts iran and starts something. So can we take this as pompeo, that donald trump now deciding that he doesnt care what his diplomats say, he doesnt care what lawmakers say, he doesnt care what we may have said in the past. That this is a pretty clear indication that that iran deal is going to get ripped up . And the iran deal wasnt like telling somebody what you want on your hamburger. It was the deal we could get with all of our partners in the world. It wases s a multilateral deal the world. The only way we could do sanctions. And it was the only deal we could cut with everyone around the world, the germans and everybody else, and it worked. And if he pulse out, theyll Start Building rockets again and start putting their Nuclear Program on track. And then what do we do . What netanyahu wants us to do . Go to war . He said no stupid wars and this looks like a stupid war. North korea with the Nuclear Weapons . Same thing. And by the way, what kind of deal is he going to cut with kim jongun . Maybe its as good as the iran deal. They already have Nuclear Weapons. So whatever we have will be in the face of the fact that theyve got a Nuclear Program to start with. It cant be better than the iranian deal. They dont have Nuclear Weapons. Chris, where does this position come from . This antiiran position. Is this just because this was a landmark deal that president obama signed and negotiated in his administration . I dont want know whether its his contributors, supporters, why do we move the embassy, this hawkish neocon position is what he ran against. He said, were not going to be like w. Was. Were not going to be talking around the middle east, talking about a freedom agenda, looking to engage in regime change. We are not going to do that anymore. That is not good for our country. And here he is basically restarting the fight with iran, while hes got a fight going with north korea already. Tillerson is going to come out in a moment. Weve played a couple other moments from the campaign off the top of this show, other things that donald trump wanted and were seeing, you know, theres no tpp, he pulled out of the pacer climate accords, hes getting his wall built, hes visiting it today when hes in california. Everything he said on the campaign trail, which seemed outrageous at the time and impossible at the time, he seems to be getting, or on his way to getting in this administration. There were other moments that stood out to me. And waterboarding was one of them, chris. He said this repeatedly on the campaign trail, that waterboarding didnt go fair enough, that he would do that and worse. Gina haspel has a real history with enhanced interrogation in the cia. I think anybody whos ever been in the military is against torture. Its the old question, do you want our enemies do what we do to other people . We dont want to get in the business of torture. And i want to go back over something. Reasonable people, not a lot, but some voted for trump because he said, im going to stop all these stupid wars, which is something he was talking against his own partys record in afghanistan and iraq. No more trying to topple dictators. Were not going that anymore. Its not in our interests. And the other thing he promised that hes never done was to rebuild america. And whether you have to go to erie, pennsylvania, where the bridges are falling apart, he gave that money away to his rich friends instead of rebuilding. And that was a betrayal. I think the two things, that some reasonable people liked about his campaign, no more stupid wars and rebuild america first, not spend our money overseas. Hes not going. Okay, hes doing torture. Who does that benefit . Its not benefiting the voters in erie and its not going to help him get elected anywhere in pennsylvania. It might not be benefiting them in actual practice, because that was one of the lines, chris, that got the biggest applause and the loudest cheers wherever we were on the campaign trail, north, east, south, west. It didnt matter. Donald Trump Supporters cheered that on. They wanted somebody who was going to be tough, despite the fact that he wasnt going to be involved. He contradicted himself left and right. I think torture is immoral and i think its going to be seen as immoral. Were not going to do it. The military guys like john mccain knows who really did face the enemy and faced capture and imprisonment know that we dont get in that business again. Chris, lets talk about tillerson real fast. What could he possibly come out and say . Well, he has a right to be angry, because the secretary of state is a hugely important position in our history. It goes back to jefferson. Hes secretary of state and he got fired by tweet . why doesnt trump have the whatever it takes to meet these people, whether its priebus or anybody else hes going to fire and do it to their face . Why did he fire comey by remote . He did it when he was in california. Why didnt he call him and say, you know, youve done a great job, i just want to go a different direction on iran. I have to ask for your resignation. Thats the way a gentlemen does it. What do you think, it could be because tillerson called him a moron. Well, yeah, i was going to bring that up, but it was a year ago and i thought, ever since he said that, this guy was cooked. I agree. You think like i do, katy. Youre right, exactly. He wasnt going to live with a guy who called him a moron. But then he gets into the iq business. He wanted to take an iq test and compare his results with tillerson. He also went after the iq of a congresswoman from california this week. Hes a projector , chris. Everything you say about him, he says about you. Im rubber and youre glue. Heres a thought. When he had frog legs with romney. Remember that one . Yeah. We all watched it and said, oh, what were doing here is making fun of romney, make this upper class guy beg for a job and pull it out from under him, humiliate him. Just think how good mitt romney feels today that hes not being put through this humiliation. This is what faced him. This kind of tenure ending. And he now doesnt have he can watch somebody else go through it. Well, we will see how mitt romney reacts in realtime once he is, if he is elected to utahs senate. Hes waiting for 2020. We know that. Hes waiting for 2020. Really . You think again . I think its going to be an opening. A lot of people think it will be an opening. Chris, stick around for us. We have a few other reporters who are hoping to jump in. If you can, stick with us. Sure. Nbcs Peter Alexander is at the white house. And Garrett Haake is on capitol hill. Also joining us, carol lee and reporter for the Washington Post, ashley parker. Peter, i want to start with you. How did this go down . Reporter lets walk you through at least a couple phone calls that we know took place between the chief of staff here at the white house, john kelly, and Rex Tillerson, dating back to this past friday. The first call to tillerson from the chief of staff coming friday here, Early Saturday Morning in africa, where tillerson was effectively doing an apology tour on behalf of the president for the shole comment the president used about african nations, only a matter of months ago. At the time, tillerson, we are told, according to white house officials, effectively being told by the chief of staff that the president wanted him to, quote, step aside. Then we understand according to officials here, there was a separate phone call that took place saturday, in effect, saying that the ouster or that tillersons ouster was, quote, imminent, recognized that Rex Tillerson didnt land back in the states until the wee hours, overnight, early this morning, and it was only a matter of hours after that that we understand that he officially got the word that he was being fired by the president s tweet this morning, announcing his new selection for secretary of state, the nominee would be the cia director, mike pompeo, katy. And what youre hearing in the background, i believe, is one of the reporters in the Briefing Room give a live report, i think. Reporter its a busy one here. Were just getting word that Rex Tillerson is walking down the hall to that podium. Ashley, quickly to you, and well have to cut you off if he shows up, but the white house has now also fired the undersecretary who released the statement saying tillerson was surprised by the firing, which the white house contradicted. Ashley, hold on on that, because Rex Tillerson is now good afternoon, all. I received a call today from the president of the United States a little after noontime from air force one and ive also spoken to white house chief of staff kelly to ensure we have clarity as to the days ahead. What is most important is to ensure an orderly and smooth transition during a time that the country continues to face significant policy and National Security challenges. As such, effective, at the end of the day, i am delegating all responsibilities of the office of the secretary to deputy secretary of state sullivan. My commission as secretary of state will terminate at midnight, march the 31st. Between now and then, i will address a few administrative matters related to my departure and work towards a smooth and orderly transition for secretary of state designate, mike pompeo. Im encouraging my policy Planning Team and undersecretaries and assistant secretaries, those confirmed, as well as those in acting positions, to remain at their post and continue our mission at the state department and working with interagency process. I will be meeting members of my Front Office Team and policy planning later today to thank them for their service. They have been extraordinarily dedicated to our mission, which includes promoting values that i view as being very important to the safety and security of our state department personnel, accountability, which means treating each other with honesty and integrity, and respect for one another. Most recently in particular, to address challenges of Sexual Harassment within the department. I want to speak now to my state Department Colleagues and to our interagency partners and colleagues at dod and the joint chief of staffs, most particularly. To my Foreign Service officers and Civil Service colleagues, we all took the same oath of office, whether youre a career employee or a political appointee, we are all bound by that common commitment. To support and defend the constitution, to bear true faith and allegiance to the same, and to faithfully discharge the duties of our office. As a state department, we are bound together by that oath. We remain steadfast here in washington, and if post, across the world. Many of whom are in danger pay situations without their families. The world needs selfless leaders like these, ready to work with longstanding allies, new emerging partners and allies, who now, many are struggling as democracies and in some cases, are dealing with human tragedy, crisis of natural disasters, literally crawling themselves out of those circumstances. These are experiences that no lecture hall in an academic environment or in a think tank can teach you, only by people going to the front lines to serve can they develop this kind of talent. To the men and women in uniform, im told for the first time in most peoples memory, the department of state and department of defense have a close working relationship where we all agree the u. S. Leadership starts with diplomacy. The men and women in uniform at the department of defense under the leadership of secretary mattis and general dunceford protect us as americans and our way of life daily at home and abroad. As an allvolunteer military, they do it for love of country, they do it for you, and they do it for me. For no other reason. As americans, we are all eternally grateful to each of them and we honor their sacrifices. The rewarding part of having leadership and partnerships in place is that you can actually get some things done. And i want to give recognition to the state department and our partners for a few of their accomplishments under this administration. First, working with allies, we exceeded the expectations of almost everyone with the dprk maximum pressure campaign. With the announcement on my very first trip as secretary of state to the region, that the era of strategic patience was over, and we commenced the steps to dramatically increase not just the scope, but the effectiveness of the sanctions. The department undertook a Global Campaign to bring partners and allies onboard in every country around the world, with every mission raising this to the highest levels and every meeting ive had throughout the year, this has opinibeen on the agenda to discuss. The adoption of the south asia strategy, with the conditions of military plan is a tool to compel the taliban to reconciliation and peace talks with the afghan government. Finally equipped our military planners with a strategy which they can execute, as opposed to a succession of 16 oneyear strategies. This clear military commitment tracted the support of allies broadly, and equipped our diplomats with a whole new level of certainty around how to prepare for the peace talks and achieve the final objectives. In other areas, while progress has been made, much work remains. In syria, we did achieve important ceasefires and stabilizations, which we know has saved thousands of lives. Theres more to be done in syria, particularly with respect to achieving the peace, as well as stabilizing iraq and seeing a healthy government installed. And more broadly in the entire Global Campaign to defeat isis. Nothing is possible without allies and partners, though. Much work remains to establish a clear view of the nature of our future relationship with china. How shall we deal with one another over the next 50 years and ensure a appeared of prosperity for all of our peoples, free of conflict between two very powerful nations. And much work remains to respond to the troubling behavior and actions on the part of the russian government. Russia must assess carefully as to how its actions are in the best interests of the russian and of the world more broadly. Continuing on our current trajectory is likely to lead to greater sizelatiisolation on th. A situation which is not in anyones interests. So my colleagues in the state department and in the interagency, much remains to be done to achieve our mission, on behalf of the American People, with allies and with partners. I close by thanking all for the privilege of serving beside you for the last 14 months. Importantly, to the 300 plus million americans, thank you for your devotion to a free and open society. To acts of kindness towards one another, to honesty and the quiet, hard work that you do every day to support this government with your tax dollars. All of us, we know, want to leave this place as a better place for the next generation. Ill now return to private life, as a private citizen, as a proud american, proud of the opportunity ive had to serve my country. God bless all of you. God bless the American People. God bless america. Secretary secretary of state walking out without taking questions. The now outgoing secretary of state, Rex Tillerson, says he will now return to private life as a private american citizen, proud of serving his country. That was a remarkable outgoing statement by Rex Tillerson. He said that effective at the end of the day, he will be handing over the reins to the deputy secretary of state sullivan. Back with me, chris matthews, host of hardball here on msnbc. We also have Peter Alexander at the white house, carol lee, and ashley parker. Chris, first to you. What i got from that right there was not only was it diplomatic, but at the end, he snuck in a warning to russia. He also never mentioned donald trump, the president he served, once. Not once did he mention them. He came in there out of breath, as if he had just been knocked out of office. He looked exactly what hes going through. He looked like the guy going through what hes going through. Abruptly dethroned from a prestigious position he thought he owned. The president didnt do it to his face. He apparently called him just a few hours ago to make sure he knew it. But that was more of a coupe degras than a call for him to resign. And i thought it interesting he tried to win goodwill with the department of defense and the department of state people. He has not even used the ambassadors when he would go to visit the countries. It wasnt a great relationship, but thats not interesting to most people. The interesting thing is the president seems to have done this in a abrupt way. It seems like more is coming, that hes almost back to the cabinet people he wants, which is people who agree with him. And clearly thats what he wants. Ashley, more to come. What could that possibly be . That could be any number of things. Were hearing that mcmasters days are numbered. I believe thats something you guys first reported a couple of weeks ago. And the broader thing, really, than naming specifics is that were hearing from inside the white house is that this is a president unleashed and unchained and sort of doing what he wants. So if there is someone who has been frustrated with, as he has been, almost since Rex Tillerson first joined his administration, now is the time hes going to make these changes. He feels emboldened. And secondly, as hes already started making some of these changes, there are less and less people around him who are the sorts of people when he talked or mused about firing Rex Tillerson or talked or mused about firing someone else would talk him down or delay him or distract him. So this is just the moment where hes sort of looki ining for an overhaul and is emboldened and empowered to do it. Carol, what did you make of that last moment where he gave a very clear warning to russia, that they should consider what is in their best interests . Rex tillerson has been one of the few people in this administration that will go out on a limb against russia. Theres a couple of others that have. Pompeo is one of them. Same with nikki haley, but certainly, from the oval sauoff, from the west wing, we havent heard a lot of speak like that. Yeah, it struck me, too. Its one of the things that the president and secretary tillerson disagreed on. And one of the things that really frustrated President Trump was when Rex Tillerson would take a line on russia that would put the white house and the president in the spotlight of seeming softer on russia or not as tough. I thought the most interesting thing that came out of there is that the only mention he made of the president was to say that he spoke with him on the phone from air force one this afternoon. At the end, when he thanked people for the honor to serve, he thanked the state department and the American People and he did not thank President Trump. And that, you know, going into that, youre thinking, the he going to say anything about the president or take a jab at him in some way . And i think what happened here is in what he didnt say. Yeah, absolutely. This was, if you look at it, the way people are looking at it, this was a real slap in the face to Rex Tillerson, to be fired in a tweet and then be called be the president when he was aboard air force one. Not just that, peter, but the undersecretary, who released the statement saying that he was surprised by this, that Rex Tillerson was surprised by this, has also been fired by the white house. An indication that if youre not onboard with the way the white house is running things or what the white house says, if it contradicts what you say, then you are gone. Yeah, the shake ups continue across washington, in effect, today, katy. But what really strikes me on this day is the fact that this is a president who became so famous for americans for his role on the apprentice where he sat there in the boardroom and to their face, he said, youre fired, yet the highprofile firings have taken place from thousands of miles away. James comey, the situation today with Rex Tillerson, where in effect he got a couple of calls from the chief of staff, and then it came in a tweet and a call later from the president. It was striking to hear about tillerson describe his desire to participate in an orderly and smooth transition, despite the president s insistence that this is a funnytuned machine earlier at the white house. Earlier, you played that long list of departures. Its been anything but orderly, the transition s that have take place here, considering there might be more to come. What we havent even addressed today is one of the president s inner circle members, one of those physically, literally, and figuratively closest to the president , john mcentee, the president s personal aide, we now know was forced to depart, literally escorted off the premises just yesterday. This is the president s personal aide, his body man. One of the guys who was with him from the beginning, as you know well, alongside keith schiller, effectively the president s body gard, hope hicks, who has now announced she is resigning and nbc news has confirmed that mcentee is currently being investigated for what are being described as serious financial crimes. So there is a lot that indicates that this has been anything but orderly behind the scenes, even as the president would like to say, hey, this is exactly as i like it to look. Im struck by what he said on the south lawn when we saw him today, basically saying, im finally getting to that place where i think i have the cabinet and the other officials i want. As you know well, he said he only hires the best people. If thats the case, you wouldnt think they would have to be leaving so often. And we just showed a picture of john mechancentee. A young guy whos been with the campaign since almost the very beginning. We have Andrea Mitchell who was in that briefing. Unfortunately, we just lost Andrea Mitchell. Almost got her. Who was in the briefing with secretary of state outgoing secretary of state Rex Tillerson. Chris matthews, you know what we got Andrea Mitchell back. Im sorry, chris. Go ahead, go ahead. Andrea, give us your top lines from that briefing . Reporter well, he was fired, he was fired. Precipitously. He had a terrible tenure here from the state departments perspective, not filling vacancies, cutting the budget 30 each year. But the way that he was fired and the fact that he was much closer to defense secretary mattis and in sync with european allies and others around the world in terms of a more traditional diplomacy, which arguably is a much better strategic outlook for the United States, means were going to have big changes. They do not know whether mike pompeo, a very smart man with a much better relationship with the president , who can advocate for the state department, will speak up to the president , will talk back to him, especially he and other cabinet members now know, assuming that pompeo is confirmed, they all know what happened to Rex Tillerson for speaking back. Look, Rex Tillerson is the ceo of exxonmobil was never a good fit. He was from the private sector, which has happened before, but he not only had no diplomatic experience, but he talked down to the president , he patronized the president. Famously, he called him a moron on july 20th at the pentagon. It was overheard by enough dr z advisers that we heard about it and reported on that in the fall. And then he lied and said it hadnt happened. He dismissed the questions about it as renal as a week ago. So this man was honest, he wouldnt lie, he talked back to the president of the United States in a way that others would not and still do not. He did not believe in blowing up the iran nuclear deal, but modifying it, fixing it, if possible. So that they would not be sending a signal to north korea and rogue players elsewhere in the world that doing a deal with the United States of america mens thme means that you can not trust. Very important as were going into negotiations with north korea. He was one of the original advocates, as you know, katy, with diplomacy of north korea and was undercut, famously, on twitter again, as he was flying back from asia, when the president tweeted, youre wasting your time, rex. Dont waste your time, rex. So he didnt have the respect of others around the world, because they knew he didnt speak for the president. As well, he was upset after charlottesville. Hes an eagle boy scout who hated that boy scout speech last summer that the president profanely gave to the boy scouts of america at the jamboree. Theres so many ways in which this man was not a good fit with this president , but was, you could argue, a much better advocate for what the United States needs to do in the world. And we do not know whether mike pompeo, a really smart guy, first in his class at harvard, you know, west point graduate, will be able will have the backbone to stand up to the president. Thats the question, andrea. And donald trump is now just touching down in san diego. Well see if reporters can get anywhere near him once he gets off the plane. I dont think so. Andrea, that is the question, though. Will mike pompeo change donald trump on Foreign Policy . Or will donald trump change mike pompeo on Foreign Policy . Hes been very outspoken against russia, hes called wikileaks a state sponsor or i forgot the exact terminology, but he basically said wikileaks is not a friend. Its not a journalism organization, as roger stone wants to put it. Whos going to have more influence on whom . Is it going to be pompeo or trump . Pompeo is a former member of congress and a very smart one. Hes a major player on the benghazi hearings. He is a politician, as well as having done a very good job, arguably, by all reports, at the cia. So there are two things here. He understands public advocac. Y he will be much better at speaking in public, at doing Television Interviews and talking to the press corps when its a good purpose for the United States of america to travel with the press corps, as Rex Tillerson did not until very, very recently. So in that regard, i think as a former politician and not a former ceo of the Worlds Largest private company, he is a better fit. But whether he is going to be able to influence the president remains to be seen. He spent more time with the president than anyone else over these 14 months, because he has been the briefer presenting the president s daily brief in person in contrast to many of his predecessors who would send a deputy. He did it mostly in person, and because this person does not read the daily brief in full, it was done verbally. So they have a very good chemistry. Yeah, also, of course, if she is confirmed, will have her former deputy, whos very highly regarded by the professionals, if not by some of her critics on capitol hill, at the cia. So, i mean, i think it is a mix record here, but i think the profound sense of chaos and its only the beginning, because we heard from the president himself that there could be more changes this week, you dont know whats going to happen with h. R. Mcmaster, a choice to replace gary cohn. Could be larry kudlow. It could be larry kudlow, indeed. Theyve talked twice, at least, according to reports. Look, on the paris climate accords, on iran and the nuclear deal, on moving the embassy to jerusalem, as precipitously as the white house decided to do it, on north korean diplomacy before the president finally adopted that point of view, on all of these major issues, Rex Tillerson was more in line with the rest of the world than donald trump. The problem is he was not in line with his commander in chief. Mike pompeo called wikileaks a hostile intelligence service, just to be clear on that. Andrea mitchell, thank you so much for joining us. You bet. Chris matthews, last question to you. Does this just mean that as wild as 2017 was, 2018 is only going to be trumpier . Well, he does create headlines for us, doesnt he . And i think hes done it again. And maybe hes just bumped out the 18th in pennsylvania off it will front pages tomorrow no matter what happens in that special. I think tillerson is top of the fold tomorrow. So sometimes i wonder whether trump, as youve been studying him over the year, does things just to knock out a bad story with a less than bad story. At least this one shows him in charge. He may want tillerson fired on the front pages tomorrow rather than democrat wins in Trump Country in pennsylvania for the headline tomorrow. Im not sure that thats going to not be the headline tomorrow with the way this news cycle goes. Tillerson might be old news by morning. Well said. Well said. Chris matthews, thank you so much for joining us, coming in a little bit early to talk to us. We appreciate it. Peter alexander, thank you very much, as well. Carol lee, ashley parker, thanks for sticking around and playing with us for the top of this hour. Well see you soon. Next up, we focus on trumps pick to replace parttiompeo at ceo. Gina haspel could be the first woman to lead the agency. But could her history with enhanced interrogation, some call it torture, hold up to her historic appointment . 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Duck quack call to request your free decision guide now. Because the time to think about tomorrow is today. I received a call today from the president of the United States at a little after noontime from air force one. And ive also spoken to white house chief of staff kelly to ensure that we have clarity as to the days ahead. What is most important is to ensure an orderly and smooth transition during a time that the country continues to face significant policy and National Security challenges. That was Rex Tillerson just moments ago giving his outgoing speech. This comes as the president arrives in california. We just saw him walk off air force one in san diego. This happened a minute ago. With mike pompeos move to state, the president has nominated gina haspel, the Current Deputy director to lead the cia. Haspel would be the first woman to hold that position, but shell have to be confirmed, first. And that could move problematic. Back in february when she was picked as deputy, the New York Times profiled what they called the career spys leading role in torture. They reported that haspel, quote, oversaw the torture of two terrorism suspects and later took part in an order to destroy videotapes documenting the cias brutal interrogations at a secret prison in thailand. Earlier today, on msnbc, former cia director, john brennan, expressed his support for haspel, who he said did, quote, difficult things in trying times. She has a wealth of experience and background and she has, you know, more than three decades experience both abroad and at headquarters. She has tremendous respect within the ranks. She was involved in a very, very controversial program. And i know that the Senate Confirmation process will look at that very closely. But gina haspel has a lot of integrity. She has tried to carry out her duties at cia to the best of her ability, even when cia was asked to do some very things in challenging time. John nixon is a former leadership expert with the cia who among other things, interrogated Saddam Hussein. Thank you very much for joining us. This is also your book were showing on screen. John brennan just said a little while on msnbc that she did some difficult things in some challenging times. Shes getting praise from a lot of folks within the intelligence world, publicly. John brennan being one, matt miller, another msnbc contributor, being another. What is your take on haspel . Is she a good choice to replace pompeo . I think shes not a very good choice at all. I think there are probably others that might have been a better choice. I will say this. Her appointment kind of troubles me. And it shows that the Trump Administration apparently is most interested in the cia in terms of operations. This appointment and a few others that trump has made during his presidency has always favored the operational side. And so therefore, i take that as being that the Trump Administration is not really interested in the information that they can get from the cia analysts, but they want to use the agency as a weapon against their adversaries. Im going to push back a little bit, just for a second. James clapper, the former director of the of national intelligence, said he was, quote, very pleased. And mike morrell, former Deputy Director of the fbi, said, i applaud the appointment. These are officials who served under the obama administration. So why does she enjoy such broad support among the Intelligence Community if you think shes such a bad choice . She has had a very long career and done many things, but shes also been involved in two of the darkest events in recent cia history. That is the torture program. She wasnt in the National Clandestine service and just associated with the torture program. She was running it. She was one of the architects of the torture program. And i have to say this, from my own experience, debriefing detainees in iraq, the torture program was not only, i think, useless, but it was counterproductive. And actually created more enemies for us to have to go after. She hasnt sat for a confirmation, so we havent gotten her updated opinions on any of these things, but she does have the past that you are referring to. And donald trump said say on the campaign trail that he thought waterboarding should come back. He would bring it back and he would want to do worse. Because what isis is doing isnt fair and we shouldnt be playing by any sort of rules. We shouldnt be constrained. He got large cheers for this. Do you think this is an indication that maybe were going back in that direction of enhanced interrogation, of waterboarding, of torturing our detainees . I certainly would hope not. That i think its one thing to say you want to bring it back, but if youre going to bring it back, you have to have people to carry it out. And personally, if i were working at the cia and somebody said, i want you to waterboard someone, i would say, first, you have to give me a get out of jail card, first. Im not doing that. And you know, the thing is, this is an immoral program. And it also doesnt produce the results that you want. You want to get information off the battlefield from detainees. There are other ways to do it. You dont have to waterboard and torture people. Isnt naming her to be the next director of the cia basically giving her a get out of jail free card . Well, you know, naming her to be the next cia director is this. It shows, i think it sends the message that the ends justifies the means. We dont care how you do anything, as long as you get the end result. And that is a very dangerous proposition, because in the history of the cia, the times the agency has gotten in trouble and gotten president s in trouble has been when this has been the operating ethos. That the ends justifies the means or uim sorry, the me s s justifies the ends. And the thing is, this might be something where donald trump might rue the day that he made this selection. John nixon, thank you so much for joining us. We appreciate your insight. Thank you. Joining me now is michael mcfaul, former u. S. Ambassador to russia. Michael, we just got readouts from both the Prime Minister of the uk, theresa may, and the white house on the call that the president had with may aboard air force one about that attack in the uk, that poisoning. The uk said it was likely russia. Yesterday, Sarah Huckabee sanders refused to say the word russia, despite being asked repeatedly about it in the Briefing Room. Now, on a not rare, but maybe slightly unusual, the readouts match up to each other. Both the president s team and the Prime Ministers team say that President Trump said the u. S. Was with the uk all the way, agreeing that the russian government must provide unambiguous answers as to how this nerve agent came to be used. What do you make of donald trump, at least in a statement, saying that russia was probably behind this . Well, thats progress. I agree. And most certainly, thats better than what was said yesterday. But now the hard part comes. How are you going to respond . Ways going to be the policy response when Vladimir Putin says, we didnt do this . Does nato, article five, come into play at all here . Probably not, although people are talking about this as an attack on a nato ally, an assassination, maybe a terrorist attack. Those are other words that people are using. My guess is that nato will not want to rally to say that this is an article 5 attack. But it does demand, from my point of view, a response from nato. Because, after all, the uk is a member of the nato alliance. Theyre one of our closest allies in the world, and they need us to respond jointly, not just leaving Great Britain to have this response to russia on their own. Donald trump has fired Rex Tillerson today. Were hearing word that h. R. Mcmaster could go at some point. Where do we stand on Foreign Policy . What does this shake up today and maybe the shake ups down the line, what does it mean for how we deal with countries . I just want people to reflect for a moment how many people have left this administration in top jobs. You know, i worked in the obama administration. I was in the white house, you know, so march of 2010, we had no senior person leave at this time. It is extraordinary. And its especially extraordinary because President Trump has just signed up the United States of america for the most important diplomatic negotiation maybe in decades, by agreeing to engage with the North Koreans on a strategy of denuclearization. So i wish them well. Mr. Pompeo is well readin in terms of intelligence, but he has no experience with dealing with the North Koreans or asia generally and he has no experience as a diplomat. So hes going to have to be, you know, learn on the job and increase his ability to help the team here. I think our team is pretty week right now, moving into what is arguably up with of the most important diplomatic negotiations we have had in many decades. What he does have that tillerson did not have a close relationship with the president. Thats right. Well see if that changes things in any material way. Michael mcfaul, thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for sticking around. Thanks for having me. Next up, New Washington post reporting on what roger stone knew about wikileaks and the hacked emails and when he knew it. Stay with us. Gas, bloating, constipation and diarrhea can start in the colon and may be signs of an imbalance of good bacteria. Only Phillips Colon Health has this unique combination of probiotics. It helps replenish good bacteria. Get fourinone symptom defense. Plaicold sore. Es . Hey, whats up, what can i get you . Cold sore. What . Cold sore. Wanna grab lunch . Cold sore. When you have a cold sore you cant think of anything else. Camphopheniques topical anesthetic plus antimicrobial action soothes pain fast. Whats for dinner . Meat loaf. Camphophenique on, cold sore pain gone. In an interview with my colleague, chuck todd, roger stone denied that he had advanced notice of wikileaks release of Clintons Campaign emails. I never had any advanced knowledge of the content, the source, or the exact timing of the wikileaks disclosures. I never predicted thal John Podestas emails would be hacked. I predicted that his Business Activities would come under scrutiny. Yet for months, roger stone had insinuated that he did know that the Clinton Campaign was hacked. Some of those very public insinuations came before the emails were even released. With regard to the october surprise, what would be your forecast on that, given what Julian Assange has intimated hes going to do . Well, it could be any number of things. I actually have communicated with assange. I believe the next tranche of his documents pertain to the clinton foundation. But theres no telling what the october surprise may be. Today the Washington Post reports that not one, not just sam nunberg, but two associates of the political operative have contradicted his claims. They say that stone did have contact with wikileaks founder Julian Assange in 2016 and knew they were in possession, wikileaks was in possession of emails. That post report dropped for an odd time for republicans. Yesterday they announced to the outrage of their democratic colleagues that they had concluded their investigation into potential Trump Campaign collusion with russia. Their conclusion, no collusion Tom Hamburger is a National Reporter for the Washington Post and lets bring in chuck rosenberg, a former u. S. Attorney and senior fbi official whos also an nbc contributor. We should also note that the republicans on house intel said that they did not agree with the Intelligence Communitys assessment that Vladimir Putin was trying to help donald trump get elected, either. Tom, lets start with roger stone. Would i be incorrect in assuming that he now seems to be a focus of muellers investigation . Well, katy, im not sure focus may not be the exact right word, but we know that he is getting some attention from bob mueller and thats what sam nunberg said to us yesterday on the record. He was asked questions about rogers professed contacts with Julian Assange and wikileaks, before those nowfamous, infamous emails were leaked to the public through weeikileaks. So rogerstone stone is kind complicated character. He says one thing and claims a moment later he never said that thing or he was joking when he said that thing or lying when he said that thing. Its got to be something thats tough for investigators to nail it down. What are your hearing, not only from sam nunberg, but from your other source about what assange was claiming he did and im sorry, what stone was claiming he did and when he did it. Well, it is a challenge to investigators. Its a challenge to reporters, as well. What we understand is that there is testimony from nunberg and then we heard from another individual, as well, who said roger stone, basically, told them in 2016, mudd2016, before these wikileaks hacked emails were presented to the public, that something was coming from wikileaks. Something that could be troubling to the democrats. He told nunberg, roger stone did, that he was going to go to london and have dinner with Julian Assange. Now stone says he was joking in that conversation and it should have been realized everyone should have realized it was a joke. I cant explain the second statement that he was going to meet with Julian Assange. But you just played a clip, katy, that showed a third instance in which he said, ive been in communication with Julian Assange. So we have these contradictions. Stone on the one hand telling several people and saying publicly, ive talked with Julian Assange. And now saying, ive never had any contact with him. Chuck, youre the expert on this. How do investigators wade through that . How do they sort fact from fiction with roger stone . How much weight is given to what he said . And how much weight is given to his claims that he was lying or it was a joke . Good question, katy. So from his own mouth and his own words, he tells you that he was in contact with assange circumstantially. The timing of what he said and the release of the documents also suggest that he knew it was coming. But what prosecutors will do, what investigators will do is corroborate it. Theyll look at phone records, travel records, emails, lodging, whatever it takes to show that people were in certain places at certain times and in communication with one another. And by the way, a federal judge will tell a federal jury the following thing, when theyre charging the jury. Circumstantial evidence is given every bit as much weight as direct evidence. The law makes no distinction between the two. And what you have here is both direct evidence, stuff out of his own mouth, and circumstantial evidence. Rormg stone wasnt working officially for the campaign at the time that he was potentially talking to Julian Assange or at the time this he was claiming he did or tweeting about wikileaks. Chuck, does that mean that the campaign gets a pass on this, since stone wasnt a staffer on the campaign . Absolutely not. It has no meaning legally, katy. Ive used this analogy before, but the most important witness in a bank robbery may not be the ceo of wells fargo, it may be the guy sitting outside on a bench who gets the license plate of the getaway car. So whether or not you work for the bank, youre in the bank, youre next to the bank, meaningless. If roger stone knows something and is coordinating with the campaign, whether hes inside or outside, close to it or far from it is meaningless. Its what he knows and what he did. Why do you think roger stone has not been interviewed by the special counsel yet, chuck . Well, i dont know that he hasnt, katy. He says he has not. Well put it that way. And he says other things that have over time proved to be not true. So he may very well have been already interviewed. But this is an important point, often. They leave for the end of the investigation the folks that they are most correspond abonce. So if he was a subject or a target, it would make sense to me that they would leave him to the end. But whether or not hes been interviewed, we dont know, and i wouldnt necessarily rely on his own representations. Tom, i want to get your take on what happened with house intel yesterday. The republicans coming out with a statement saying that theyve concluded their investigation. We should note, a number of people were not interviewed in front of house intel, as the democrats had wanted. The democrats werent consulted in the closing of this investigation. And not only did they say that they found no conclusion, theyre also saying, as i said at the top, that they dont agree with the Intelligence Communitys assessment that Vladimir Putin was trying to help donald trump win the election. Well, katy, i think we saw that theres an important audience for that sort of surprise conclusion by the house intelligence committee, republicans, and we saw the reaction from the president this morning in his tweet about it in all caps. So this is it becomes a very important argument in a political context now. You have one investigation shutting down, as two others, the Senate Intelligence committee, and bob muellers office of special counsel investigation continue. What does it mean to be able to give donald trump that ability to go out and tweet in all caps and claim there was no collusion. When the republicans hand that to him, how can he use it to his advantage potentially in the mueller investigation, or at least, chuck, in the court of Public Opinion . Well, he can only use it in the court of Public Opinion. I can tell you that bob mueller and his team could careless about a partisan congressional investigation. And i mean that, by the way, in the most neutral of terms, katy. Whether its a partisan republican investigation or a partisan democratic investigation, its utterly meaningless to bob mueller. Bob mueller cares about facts and cares about the law and not about what some politicians on the hill are doing. Tom hamburger and chuck rosenberg, thank you very much. One more thing before we go, the president touched down in california a moment ago. Its his first visit to kacalli since taking office. Hes there to get an upclose look at prototypes of his proposed wall. His visit comes after he filed suit against californias sanctuary policies which are illegal, up constitutional, and put the ration at risk, he says. Democrats hope that will provide them with a golden opportunity to pick up some of the seats they need to take back the house. Msnbcs Jacob Soboroff joins us by phone from huntington beach. Jacob, whats the reaction out there . We only have a couple seconds left in the show. Reporter you got it. Greetings from our home state, my friend. The president touched down here not long ago, hes headed to the county south of where i am, san diego, to check out those prototypes. I spent so much time at, california has been his chief domestic foil from immigration to the environment to cannabis, of course. But what many dont realize is that pockets of this state are very deep red and if the democrats achieve their objective of flipping the house next november, that path will come right through here in Southern California and the 48 thd district, home to beto orourke could be the place to tip the scales. Msnbcs Jacob Soboroff in huntington beach, california. Jacob, thank you much. A good reminder there from ali velshi. Everyone thinks of california as a very, very, very blue state. Right, not down there. Thats because the population centers, which are highly populated, have a lot of liberal or very democratic folks, but if you get into the interior of the country the south and the north. You will find some extraordinarily republican areas. Yep. Devin nunes country. And if you go way to the top, theres an Independence Movement to separate and have their own state. California has a whole lot of factions. Its an interesting place. For people who lump it all together as one, california is a country unto itself

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