Transcripts For MSNBCW MSNBC Live With Kate Snow 20160404

Double digits. But this morning in lacrosse at a rally there, he said the stakes were still very high and urged everyone to come out and vote. Tail take a listen. If we do well here, folks, its over. If we dont [ cheers and applause ] if we dont win here, its not over, but wouldnt you like to take the credit in wisconsin for ending it . Give wisconsin the credit for ending it and then we can focus on hillary instead of these two guys. Reporter so in theory, wisconsin is a state where donald trump should do very well in open primary. Very blue collar voters here, specially here in superior, the northwest part of the state, a place where many voters say they have not done well as part of this economic recovery. This is part of the state that did go for barack obama four years ago, but many of the people we spoke with here say they want an outsider, that they are hungry for Donald Trumps message. Interestingly enough, craig, some of the people we spoke to here are also from neighboring minnesota, and they say they really wanted to see donald trump, to see him live in person at this rally. Now, the question will be, will ted cruz be able to pull out the 42 delegates or most of the 42 delegates here in wisconsin . As the campaign moves forward into the northeast, the question will be will ted cruz perform well there . Donald trump will expect to do well in places like new york and pennsylvania. Ted cruz holding a rally just a short distance away from where Bernie Sanders is holding his rally. Here at this event there are a few protesters. I counted a dozen or so outside. Again, this rally about to get under way. More than a thousand people here waiting to see donald trump speak. Craig . Gabe gutierrez in superior, wisconsin. Gabe, well come back to you in ju a bit when trump takes the stage there. Donald trump and ted cruz dont agree on a whole heck of a lot, but its clear they both want one thing. They want john kasich out of the race. Cruz reiterated that today saying the National Convention in cleveland will be a contest against him and trump. This fever pipe dream of washington, that at the convention they will parachute in, some white knight who will save the washington establishment. It is nothing less than a pipe dream. It aint gonna happen. If it did, the people would quite rightly revolt. Well, trump and cruz are here in the badger state. John kasich has left the state and is instead focusing on new york today ahead of the april 19th primary there. Earlier while campaigning in hempstead, new york, kasich had a few choice words for his rivals. Donald trump said that i need to get out of the race because im getting his voters. Wait, no, no, ive got news for him. Im going to get a heck of a lot of his voters, okay . Thats whats going to happen. Nbcs Kelly Odonnell is also in hempstead, new york with the Kasich Campaign. Kelly, as you know, there are folks who think kasich could pick up three, perhaps even six delegates tomorrow. So whats the campaign saying about why they arent here in wisconsin and am new yoor in ne instead . Reporter john kasich is trying to get a jump on the primaries, using his time in new york in the town halls and putting in extra hours, so to speak. They plan to do a lot of events around new york because they think they can do well here and in pennsylvania. Hes still the governor of ohio, sees making his way back to ohio where he will do some state business tomorrow and deliver the ohio state of the state address on wednesday. So hes got two worlds to serve at this point, the campaign trail and his role as ohios governor. But no doubt he understands that he will not win wisconsin. He said that flat out to voters here. But he does hope to have, as you point out, some delegates, specially around a place like madison, wisconsin, the University Town there. He believes those kind of congressional delegates, those districts can give him some delegates, so its about adding bit by bit. I asked him, dont you have to win more states . And he said, we have to get more delegates. He still makes the argument that he will lose wisconsin but could win it or make it competitive in the fall if he were the nominee. Always making the case that the Republican Party my look to him as a governor, as someone with a record in service, and looking for somebody who might be a better contrast to Hillary Clinton. Thats his case. But no doubt, polling third, coming in third, fewer delegates. Those are big challenges. But were seeing john kasich take on his rivals a bit more. And craig, i can tell you one of the people in the audience today, the very first question he took, the man said, please dont drop out. So hes hearing some support for this stay in the race theory of going all the way to the convention to give republicans a chance to consider him if Something Else goes sort of off the rails in this very unpredictable year. Craig . Kelly odonnell, force in hempstead, new york. Kelly, thank you. Without a doubt donald trump recovering from what was a bad week for his campaign from that stance, then reversal on punishing women abortions to his refusal over letting nukes be used in europe. Donald trump taking the stage about six hours north in superior, wisconsin. Lets listen in a bit. Nobody does this. I guess the last might have been ross perot. I dont know anybody who does it. I have turned down tens of millions of dollars from special interests and, frankly, from friends of mine. They want to give me millions. One guy in palm beach recently said, donald, wed like to give you 10 million. For me to turn it down is its like against my grain. Because my whole life ive been taking money. I take, take, take. Thats what a businessman does, right, or a businesswoman. We take. We take. And, you know, they come up, id like to one guy in particular is a very rich guy, member of the marira lago club. He said, donald, id like to make a contribution to your pac. I dont have a pac. Youre not allowed to do that. It was paid for and run by his pac. Youre not allowed to do that which is a whole other story. But this guy comes up and said, id like to give you whatever money you want for your campaign. I said, i cant take it. He looked at me and said yur, ye kidding. I said, no, i cant take it. I have turned down so much money. If i would have accepted i think bush, jeb, had the biggest of all the pacs. He had like 148 million or something they raised, and i think it even got a lot bigger than that. I could have had that times four or five if i would have taken the money. Coming over i said, you know, i dont think its appreciated. And im not knocking you. But when people look at me and then they look at this guy cruz who is totally controlled by the people that give him the money, 100 totally controlled, but when they give him that money or how about kasich . Kasich is 1 for 32, okay . You know what he is . Hes a guy that just doesnt stop, which i respect in one way. Because i always say never quit, never give up. But if you go by that theory and by the way, the people from back there are pouring in as we speak. You dont mind. Unless you want to wait for about two hours. Do you want to wait . No, i didnt think so. But how about kasich . How many states are there weve gone through, like 30 or 32 . Whatever it is, he won one, and i would have won that one if i had had two more days. I stayed in florida to campaign because i thought it was closer. We won florida, by the way, by a landslide. We won by almost 20 points. I should have left florida a little bit early but i didnt want to take the chance of losing florida. If i went to ohio one extra day, maybe two days, i would have won. I came in very close. Against him and the machine which is in ohio, which is fine. I understand it. Heres a guy who is 1 and 32. The 1 is his home state, and he almost lost it. So hes 1 for 32 and he just says, im going to keep running. I dont care. And hes taking my votes because hes not taking from cruz. Hes taking from me. And i say to myself. Marco could have stayed. Jeb bush could have stayed, right . He would have liked to have stayed. Low energy, he would have stayed. Just stay. But they all could have stayed if you go by that theory. So i think its unfair. And i will tell you one thing about kasich. He voted in favor of nafta, which is a disaster. That sucked the businesses from wisconsin and every place else. You have to see new england. Just took em away. He voted in favor and what he wants now is tpp, transpacific partnership, a total disaster for our country led by the special interests, led by the loebz, led by countries that want to rip us off and take our jobs. This is going to make nafta look like a baby, folks, and you shouldnt allow it. Ted cruz wants it. Ted cruz wants it badly because his people that give him money are telling him, we want it. And its a bad thing for our country, believe me, folks. A really bad thing. [ cheers and applause ] i love wisconsin. I love wisconsin. You know, its funny, we had a situation where cruz was going to win the south, remember . Until i came along. But he was going to win the south, and he was actually they were thinking New Hampshire, but somebody else was supposed to win New Hampshire. It looked like jeb was going to win New Hampshire and i came up. We won New Hampshire in a landslide, right . Landslide. By the way, i spent the tiny fraction of the money. Isnt that nice when you can spend less and come out number one . Isnt that good, right . Dont you want that as your president as opposed to, lets spend, spend. So, anyway, so i won New Hampshire. We went to South Carolina and by the way, won massachusetts almost 50 in massachusetts. Now, tom brady likes me a lot, so that helps, right . And he did say you have a Great Quarterback, okay . So thats good. Do you have a Great Quarterback . I think so. And youre going to have a good year, too. Youre going to have a good year. So we won massachusetts. But we went down to South Carolina, and that was ted cruzs territory. Lyin ted cruz, the bible held high. Did you ever see a guy lie like this guy . What he did to how about dr. Ben carson, one of the great guys, right . So he endorsed me, but how about what he did in iowa to ben carson. He said, ben carson has left the race. That was during the election. Not before or after. And thousands of people voted for him as opposed to ben, and he lied. He just lied. He said they left the race. He just lied, lyin ted. Lyin ted. [ chanting ] i will say with cruz and i dont want his endorsement, by the way, i really dont. You know these politicians, they say never really do this because you want look at this poor lindsey graham, this poor, poor guy. He said the other day, i know more about the war, ive been fighting it for many years. Thats the problem. Guys like this, they fight it for many years, they dont know how to win. In South Carolina, i was at 42, he was at 2, and hes the sitting senator of South Carolina, so he hates ted cruz, right . So he goes out and he endorses ted cruz because he cant stand me. I hit him hard. Look, we have to hit hard, we have to win. My wife is always saying and ivanka you heard of ivanka, right . Just had a baby. Shes great. But they said, darling, be more president ial, daddy, be more president ial during the debate. I said, i will, but i got to knock off the final two first if you dont mind. Right . You know what they mean. I could be president ial. But if i was president ial, we would only have about 20 of you here because it would be boring as hell. Let me be president ial for a little while longer and maybe ill be a little more unpresident ial as i beat hillary. Well beat hillary so badly. Dont forget, i havent started on hillary yet. I havent focused on hillary. So we started off with 17 people. Ive now got two left. I call them the leftovers, right . I now have two left. Were way up on both of them. The one guy, i told you. I saw him the other day from the debate. He goes, im the only one. He cant talk normal. He has to always pretend hes debating. Does that bother people . Donald, i say whats going on . But he goes, im the only one that has a proven record of beating donald trump. Im the only one. Ive beaten donald trump. Thats true. He said, i beat him six times. Then i looked at him and said, yeah, but i beat you 22 times. Right . And its a famous its true. And its a famous picture where he just stands there. He doesnt even say anything because hes lyin ted. He could say he said it again today he said, hes the only one with a proven record to beat me, and im killing the guy. Its really disgrace fuful. I tell you what, politician sile a disgrace in many cases. The lying, the deception, the viciousness. Ive met people much tougher than ted cruz, but i never, ever met anybody that lied like him. This guy lies so much, right . Do you remember the voter . Remember iowa . Remember what he said . Looked like he came right out of the irs, voter fraud, whatever the hell, he puts it up and people say, whats going on . And the way you get out of it is you have to go and vote for ted cruz. Gimme a break. Heres what the facts are, folks. We have a very, very big deal coming up, and i dont know, the polls now, a poll came out where essentially were even, and im feeling it. You know, when i went to New Hampshire, i wasnt supposed to win, right . And i went around for about four days. I had been here for four days and then went home for like two seconds because i had that meeting with the Republican National committee, right . Right. Right. Well find out, dont worry. I have my eyes wide open. My eyes are wide open, right . You all trust me. My eyes are wide open. Hes a nice man. Somebody said, is he a nice man . I said, yes. They said, are they going to treat you fairly . I said, i have no idea but ill let you know in six months. My eyes are wide open, all right . And im representing a tremendous number of people, and we are not going to be taken advantage of by people ill give you an example. I go to louisiana, worked hard, make speeches all over. Ment. I ended up winning and i didnt get as many delegates as the guy who lost. I said, what kind of system is this . Were dealing with a corrupt system. Were dealing with a system thats not fair. And i say to people, i dont care what it said. If i won, i should get more delegates. But were doing well. We have almost 300 delegates more. We have millions of votes more. People dont ever talk about that. They never mention a little thing, but we have millions, millions of votes more. Heres what you have to be careful of, those people back there. I dont even know if theyre evil, some of them are. Theyre unbelievably dishonest. Congratulations. Unbelievably dishonest. [ cheers and applause ] because every time i say something, for instance, it was asked of me about nato. I built a great company. Everyone asked me about my filings. They were hoping the company would be nothing, we would have the biggest story youve ever seen. I filed this, like, massive almost 100page document. And it showed not only some of the greatest assets in the world but tremendous cash flow, very little debt. A tremendous company. Tu turnberry in scotland, doral, many buildings all over the place. Bank of america building in San Francisco with a great partner. Lots of great deals, right . Great buildings. 1290 avenue of the americas, one of the Biggest Office buildings in manhattan, trump tower, so many beinuildings, right . I had these great companies, tremendous cash flow, tremendous company. They didnt complain, they couldnt. They were devastated. The federal election said they had never seen so many people wanting to see a report before. And a friend of mine said, i know how successful you are, but i had no idea it was that successful. I said, how did you know . Did you read the paper . He said, no. Because i know you wouldnt have run unless your papers were damn good, and its true. Pou couldnt have run because you have to file everything. Im a private company. So i filed. And the reason i tell you that story is because thats the kind of thinking we need in the united states. We have to get our house in order, folks. We have to get our house this order. And we cant let china, who i like, mexico, who i like, japan, vietnam, india name a country, name any country. Name a country. I guarantee you that country is taking advantage of the united states. [ cheers and applause ] its amazing that we have a country that continues to chug along. You know we have no gdp. Were like at zero. Zero. If china goes to 7 or 8 , its like a national catastrophe. We have nothing. Last quarter, like zero. Its slightly, slightly more than zero, but essentially it was zero. Believe me, they worked hard to make sure it kept them out of the negative territory. You dont see numbers like that. That means were losing our jobs. And you look at carrier, you look at ford, you look at na business nabisco, you look at pfizer, the great pharmaceutical company. They announced theyre moving to ireland. I own a lot of land in ireland, what the hell. I bought it four or five years ago when things were cheap. Donald trump speaking roughly six hours from where were sitting in milwaukee. Hes in superior, wisconsin. Thats along the border with minnesota. The american frontrunner spending some time talking about, of course, john kasich, talking about ted cruz as well. Also spending a fair amount of time talking about trades. The north American Free trade now in t. Hes predicting a big win here in the badger state despite a number of polls that show him behind. Barry bennett is a Senior Adviser to the trump campaign. Mr. Bennett has presumably been listening to the speech as well. How are you, sir . Im good, how are you . Im good. First of all, i want to spend some time talking about the speech before we turn to this email that was in the Washington Post. In the speech we heard donald trump saying his eyes were wide open, speaking about the rnc. What did he mean by that precisely, and what more can you tell us about that meeting that he referenced. I think it might be the old verified line, trumped but satisfied. He has a lot against him, so he needs to be careful. We need to work very hard and dilige diligent. What does that mean . Does that mean if you guys go into the convention and you havent received the recquisite number of delegates, does that mean he backs the nominee . What does that mean, and why the constant am biguity. It means we have to get as many delegates as we can. I think well get close to 1400. Then we have to make sure the establishment doesnt change the rules weve been living on for two years and allow some is he shan begans happening there. Well do that. I do have to ask you while i have you here about the Washington Post story. Im sure youre familiar with it. The subject line, digging through the poll. Did you write the email . Just confirmation that you wrote it. Yes. Yes this week the media and the washington establishment bashed theampaign with energy rkts yet we looked rkts and they couldnt wait to label the week the worst week ever. Would you call last week a good week for the trump campaign. We started the week with a 3931 lead over ted cruz. We gained six points, ted cruz lost two points. I dont think the people across america looked for polls. As described in the washington is printing the narrative that the republican establishment is sitting. How do you figure that . Well, i mean, there are lots of talking heads without. Last week was the end of donald trump. These polls come up 30 . But we were probably down 15 points in wisconsin. Today we believe theyll be within the margin of error and things will be part of america like they say. I know you spend a fair amount of time talking about this as well. Mr. Trump has said he is convinced that he can eliminate the National Deficit in the span of eight years, 19 billion of debt in eight years. How will he go about doing that . Hes going to have a plan were going to put forward on that. The government has a lot of assets and a lot of things were not doing that we should be doing. We should do everything we can to pay down this debt so my kids and your kids and our grandkids dont have to. Its incredibly irresponsible, if not immoral, that weve passed on this debt. I dont want to pass it down to my kids. Apparently the census says its roughly 26 million. How do you square it . How do you do it . There is a plan coming forward, a lot of energy we can extract for all kinds of things we should. I wanted. Spent last summer talking about something your boss said to him in la salle. He could be talking about a job, a deficit. Instead hes talking about a radio talk show host who asked him some questions. Sykes talking about donald trump who spent a fair amount of time at the rally, said he was a third rate host. He called him a joke. He went on and on about Charlie Sykes at that rally. Why spend so much time talking about a conservative radio host the day before a pivotal role here in washington . Hes endorse ad a candidate,s helping a candidate, and ld i dont mind him doing that. We could talk about the business threewheeled bag from people. I look forward to this primary being over. We listened to 10 minutes of a donald trump rally just a few moments ago, and he didnt bring up any of the subjects that you just mentioned there, not one of them. Not isis, not immigration, not his plan to reduce the 19 trillion debt. I think hell get to that. Mr. Bennett, as always. As we head out to the polls tomorrow, msn, and win big, fla in wisconsin. Were live in milwaukee not far from where Abraham Lincoln delivered a speech more than 150 years ago. The allnew audi a4, with available virtual cockpit. Sir, this alien life form at an alarming rate. Growing fast, you say . We cant contain it any long. Oh you know, that reminds me of how geicos been the fastestgrowing auto insurer for over 10 years straight. Over ten years . Mhm, geicos the company your friends and neighbors trust. 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You all trust me. My eyes are wide open. Hes a nice man. Somebody said, is he a nice man . I said yes. He said, are they going to treat you fairly . I said, i have no idea but ill let you know in six months. My eyes are wide open. Back live here in milwaukee, wisconsin at the lakefront brewery. I want to bring in writer and editor. He said his eyes are wide open. What does that mean to you . Youre starting to see a lot of intrigue come out of washington. The republican financials are pining for some kind of white knight to come into the convention, as we predict it to be an open convention after the results here in wisconsin. And an open convention, who has the advantage . You saw the delegate hunt going on over the weekend and interesting things going on in north dakota. I think ted cruz will do very well in picking up some of these unaffiliated delegates, and if it gets to a second or third ballot, i think hell accrue some of those delegates. Let me play devils advocate for a second. Why shouldnt the candidate who has garnered the most votes, why shouldnt that candidate get the republican delegates . Because its not about plurality, its about getting 50 plus 1. It doesnt come from the constitution, it requires 50 plus 1 and thats how the game is played. Are you concerned at all if ted cruz were to win a nomination in that fashion that the party itself would split irrevocabl irrevocably . I do have concerns about whether this entire coalition can remain intact given some of the positions trump has taken and some of his supporters adhe adherence instead of principles. The latest poll has cruz up about five points. What do you see on the ground . Cruz is in lacrosse, wisconsin. I think there is evidence that ted cruz will do very well and carry the statewide contest by a comfortable margin, but there will be a scramble on some of those Congressional Districts. As you know, wisconsin is a winner take all state, and by Congressional District, i think hes going to try to win in the seventh district, which is shawn duffys northwest district. I think youll see a battleground in the green bay area as well. Lets turn to the democrats now for a moment. A high stakes contest for democrats as well here tomorrow as the winner will carry momentum heading into new yorks primary on april 19. Bernie sanders was in janesville, wisconsin today, not far from where we sit in milwaukee. Take a listen. Between you and me, i dont want to get Hillary Clinton more nervous than she already is. Shes already under a lot of pressure. So dont tell her this, but i think we win here, we win in new york state, were on our way to the white house. Thank you all very much again, Bernie Sanders earlier today. Brand new cbs news poll showing Bernie Sanders leading clinton by two points here. Both candidates on the campaign trail, Bernie Sanders Holding Events here in wisconsin while Hillary Clinton is focusing on new york. Earlier today clinton held a rally with new york governor andrew cuomo. She praised the state raising the minimum wage to 15 an hour. She also wasted no time slamming donald trump on the issue. Donald trump has said that wages are too high. [ booing ] a lot of members of his party agree, right . Here with me now, msnbcs kasie hunt with the Bernie Sanders campaign. Lets talk about top sanders advisers, even the senators wife on the record talking about early missteps in the campaign. What else can you tell us about that . Sure. Well, thad divine talked with Andrea Mitchell earlier today, and he said this is the conversation they had after they lost four or five states. It gets over this overarching question about whether or not Bernie Sanders has been somebody who has been running as a cause candidate or as someone who really thought he could win the nomination. Heres thad divine explaining a little more about the thinking. I spoke to the New York Times a couple weeks ago, right after we lost five states, which was a story they wanted to do which essentially said we were winding down the campaign and it was over. I told them, and i believe this, after nevada we decided on a different strategic course. Its a tough road, its a long road, but i think its a road were on right now and its a road that leads to victory. Reporter at this point Bernie Sanders himself still seems to be in the mold now of thinking he could potentially pull off a win. But they do know it requires threading the needle. They have to win wisconsin, they have to potentially win new york. Where Hillary Clinton, she could survive one potentially damaging thing, or two, shes in a much stronger position overall. One of the things that struck me about the article is this notion that, in the beginning, according to folks around me, he didnt even think he could win this thing. Very odd to me. Well, and his wife, jane sanders, when she theres been some reporting on when he came to her and said, hey, i want to do this. And she said, i only want you to do this if you can win. Its questionable whether he believed it at the time. In particular the money has been a really huge factor. If you think about what drives most candidates to drop out of a president ial race, its because they run out of cash. Not a problem for Bernie Sanders. He can keep going as long as he wants to here. But he has gotten to the point where hes convinced it is possible to win against Hillary Clinton. I think part of what you saw in the New York Times story was some second guessing about whether or not he should have gone negative against Hillary Clinton, and i remember asking him about that as early as iowa, did you do everything you could to win here . And he said, i have no regrets, this is how i campaign, that it would be off brand for me to go negative. But it might cost him the race. Kasie hunt, this is a rare treat seeing you in person. Lovely to see you. Vice president for advocacy for this group, also wisconsin state director for the obama campaign. Knows the badger state very well. What can you tell us about tomorrow . Who has got the advantage going in. Well, craig, i think Bernie Sanders has the advantage. He has for some time. This is a very progressive state. Its a state with a lot of college students. Its a state with a deep progressive history. Big campuses like madison which has rich activist tradition oz that campus. Other cam pulpuses are scattere throughout the states, an electorate that is appealed by his message about liberal idealism. I think given the demographics and the way hes run his campaign, he will likely come out with a sizeable victory on tuesday. Not just a victory but a sizeable victory. Thats your prediction . I think by a percentage, at least comfortable for him. I think in terms of delegates, probably not. As you know, we apportion delegates in wisconsin based on how the Congressional Districts did in the 20122014 race. So in dane county, madison, the second cd, in other parts of the state it might only be five or six. Hell have to compete statewide. Hillary clinton is competing throughout the state, and i think they would take a 41 or 31. The reality is, even barack obama in 2008 winning 62 of 72 counties, tying with women and collegeeducated white. Dan, bill clinton here in wisconsin today, as you know, but Hillary Clinton is not. Shes campaigning in new york. Ive been asking this question throughout the morning. How big of a mistake is that, or am i reading too much into it . Does it really matter that shes not here on the day before the primary . I think it helps to be there throughout the state week. She has been there, she did several events last week. She was in madison midweek. I think shes done a good job in the state showing the flag. I know the campaign is strong. Theyve hired some of the best operatives in that state. She knows that wisconsin will still be a battleground state in the fall. I think as far as her campaign and her profile goes, she is tailor made to build the kind of coalition to win the state in general which means turning on the students, turning on milwaukee and cutting to the margins in green bay and other parts of the state which she can do effectively while building that western wall in lacrosse. Obama won in 2008 in the general election. Probably the most counties a general has won. I think in the case of the primary, shes done what she should do. As i said, i dont think the results on tuesday will change the race appreciatively and shes probably smart to move on to new york and keep the primary going. Some bold predictions on msnbc on this monday afternoon. Dan, thank you, sir. Sdplz thank y thank you very much. Appreciate it, craig. Coming up, well head into the Cruz Campaigns local offices about an hour west of here in milwaukee. Well do that on the other side of had ththis blake. This this is msnmsnbc, the place fo politics. At pg e, we believe solar should be accessible to everyone. Our partnership with habitat for humanity allows us to provide the benefits of solar power to the types of customers who need it most. Pg e provided all of the homes here with solar panels. The solar savings can mean a lot, especially for lowincome families. With the savings that i am getting from the solar panels, its going to help me to have a Better Future for my children. To learn how you can save energy and money with solar, go to pge. Com solar. Together, were building a better california. Listerine® kills 99 of bad breath germs. This is 100 useful for a 100 fresh mouth. Whats it like to not feel 100 fresh . We dont know. We swish listerine®. As do listerine® users. The very people we studied in the study of bold. People who are statistically more likely to stand up to a bully. Do a yoga handstand. And be in a magicians act. Listerine® kills 99 of bad breatrms so you can feel 100 in life. Bring out the bold™. High voter turnout in tomorrows wisconsins primary could serve the white house. Shes already visited Hillary Clinton headquarters as well as a Bernie Sanders field office. We now find her in waukesha, wisconsin at ted cruzs field office. Chris, what do you hear out of ted cruzs primary there . Reporter theyre excited and theyre working hard. You said waukesha. Its one of three counties working hard. The most reliably Republican Voters in the country, not just in wisconsin. Ted cruz wants to win big here, and hes going to do it, if he does it, with organization. And he probably has the best organization on the ground. You can see about 25 people who have been working the phones here. Theyve been here for weeks. Theyre past the point of introducing voters to who ted cruz is. This is strictly gotv, get out the vote. You need a ride, well get you one. Do you know where youre going, do you know where your polling place is . I want to get over here and talk to pierre. Hes a volunteer and probably hanging up on somebody right now. Why are you here . Im here to support the Ted Cruz Campaign and get the vote out tomorrow so we can defeat donald trump in wisconsin. Reporter so for you its also about defeating donald trump in addition to going for ted cruz . Absolutely, to send a message that wisconsin is on the forefront of conservatism with the scott walker man dates with act 10, and we believe we could spearhead the movement against trump to true conservatism. Reporter how much time are you spending here . I got about four hours here today, so i got probably four more to go. Reporter thank you so much for talking to us. Thank you. Reporter he talked about donald trump. One of the things ted cruz has going for him, and particularly in these wow counties as they call them, is, frankly, the fact that donald trump has about a 64 negative rating with women. And youve seen over the weekend ted cruz really hitting on women. The other thing he has going for him, theres this little handmade sign in the overflow room that says breaking news, scott walker announcing the endorsement on the Charlie Sykes show. Weve been talking about this. It isnt often weve seen any kind of endorsement make a difference in this campaign. But scott walker has put together a coalition who has fought and won three gubernatorial battles, including a recall. Charlie sykes on his radio show announced his endorsement. Certainly the governor controlling a lot of the ground here, all of those things ted cruz hopes will amount to a victory, despite donald trump saying he will pull it out. Ted cruz needs this to continue to make his argument that its a twoman race. Chris jansing in waukesha, wisconsin. Chris, thank you. Straight ahead well said, craig. Thank you very much. The cruz and trump campaigns trying with both. If you need advice for your business, legalzoom has your back. Our trusted network of attorneys has provided guidance to over 100,000 people just like you. Visit legalzoom today. The legal help you can count on. Legalzoom. Legal help is here. Whewhat does it look like . Ss, is it becoming a better professor by being a more adventurous student . Is it one day giving your daughter the opportunity she deserves . 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Theyve spent, i dont know, a million dollars, including smearing me and ted, senator ted, the smear artist. You know, theyre attacking me in wisconsin for a guy thats not doing very well. They sure are worried about me spending a lot of money, trying to knock me out. John kasich there, firing back at ted cruz earlier today for saying its a twoman race for the republican nomination. Right now, ted cruz, donald trump, ganging up on the Kasich Campaign a bit. They say that if we do see an open republican National Convention this summer, in cleveland, ohio, that kasich will not even make the first ballot. Msnbcs chief legal correspondent, ari melber, joins me now with some exclusive reporting on why trump and cruz have managed to finden issue they agree on. Ari . Thats exactly right. My reporting this morning shows that aides to both campaigns say they intend to go to cleveland with an open convention and have only two names on the ballot, not three. Not john kasich. Theyre not formally working together, but my reporting shows they do hold this position, which could be decided by the delegates at the convention, which always writes its own rules. And that gives context to what were hearing just today, from both candidates. Take a listen. But heres the story with kasich. Lets say hes won, and thats his own state, where he has a machine behind him, et cetera, et cetera. So hes 1 and 30. He ought to get the hell out, honestly. There are only two candidates whose names will appear on the ballot. Donald trump and myself. Under the rules, you have to have won eight states. There are only two candidates who will have met that threshold. The choice will be between me and donald trump. What ted cruz says there is accurate, under the rules from the last convention, there is that hurdle. Of course, as i mentioned, the new convention can write the rules. The argument i heard from cruz and trump is they are going to have the majority of delegates on the committees that make this decision and on the floor. So they think they can hold that line. Since weve reported this, craig, kasich not only responded, as you mentioned, but hes now fundraising off of this. This is an email out today from his chief strategist, john weaver saying trump cruz now teaming up to try to bully Governor John Kasich into leaving the race. And you have those donate boxes. Theyre trying to mobilize off of it. I will also mention another response i got more on background from the kasich folks, showing they take this seriously. One telling me, look, cruzs push here, what theyre reporting on, shows theyre worried about a kasich scenario at the convention. Craig, youve covered a lot of campaigns sometimes. The argument is made that if youre being attacked, its a sign that you matter. Ari melber, thank you, good sir. Do appreciate it. Thanks. We have been at the lakefront brewery this afternoon here in milwaukee, wisconsin, downtown wisconsin. Its a brewery that has been here for 28, 29 28 years. And john, you have been here every day since they opened. Well, not every day. They cant get rid of me. What do you do . Right now i give brewery tours. Whats the secret to a good brew . Well, you want to have it balanced. You want to have the sweetness and the bitterness balanced and then it goes down real good. Perhaps youve heard theres a big primary here tomorrow. Ive been aware of it. Are you voting in the primary tomorrow . I intend to vote, yes. Do you mind me asking which candidate you may be supporting . Im leading towards bernie. Sanders guy, are you . I think he talks straight and i like where hes coming from. Im going to move over here and talk to your buddy, jr. What do you do here . Im also a tour guy, bartend, give the people what they want. Voting in the primary tomorrow . You bet. Also a bernie guy . Absolutely. Is this a bernie brewery . Not that im aware of, but im sure we have a few that have snuck in. Lets talk about the beers. What do you have here for us . What weve got here, weve got a river west stein. We have our fuel cafe stout. The glutenfree pilsner, and a little bit of rendezvous. Which ones your favorite . The field cafe style. Well try that one. And the cheese curds, as well, which will be legendary before this is all over with. Im on hands down my second pound of cheese curds. Theyre not low fat either, are they . They are not. And i tell people that you can probably just injek them in your veins. John, jr, big thanks to you. A big thanks to the folks here at lakefront brewery, as well, for all the hospitality. Thats going to do it for this hour here on msnbc live. Well have some beer and cheese curds and see you back here tomorrow. My friend, chris hayes, picking it up on the other side of this break. Its time for the your business entrepreneur of the week. 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Mathematically, its a midmajor stake. There are 86 pledged delegates at stake for the democrats. To put that perspective, 15 states offer more. Republicans are fighting over 42 delegates. Thats. The reason tomorrow is so pivotal, its a litmus test after an eventual two weeks. Thats how long its been since the last republican contest in arizona and utah. Its time offend out if Donald Trumps terrible, horrible, nogood, verybad last week will have an impact going forward. The democrats, beyond the delegates, sanders needs to claw back. He needs to show supporters he can mount an impressive win. Donald trump wrapped up an event in superior, wisconsin, less than ten minutes ago. Nbcs Gabe Gutierrez is there and joins me now. Gabe, what was the scene like up there . Hey, there, chris, good afternoon. As you mentioned, donald trump just wrapping up this event a few minutes ago. Hes heading the now to a rally tonight in milwaukee. A rally thats expected to be held just nearby, a Bernie Sanders as well, and his wife, melania, expected to make a rare appearance on the campaign trail there. Today, donald trump is really going after this idea that the delegate process is corrupt, in his words, and really trying to set up this argument of what could happen at this contested convention, if he walks in there with a plurality of the delegates, but not a majority, and somehow, on the second or third ballot, that nomination is taken away from him. Listen to what he said, just a few minutes ago, about his meeting with Reince Priebus and rnc officials just a few days ago. Take a listen. Reince. Reince. Well find out. Well find out. Dont worry. My eyes are wide open. My eyes are wide open. Hes a nice man. Somebody said, is he a nice man . I said, yes. They said, are they going to treat you fairly . I said, i have no idea, ill let you know in six months, but my eyes are wide open. Reporter this could be considered another trial balloon, something he has been doing over the past couple of days. For example, that tweet a few days ago, where he threatened a lawsuit on louisiana, even though he had won the popular vote, but ted cruz got more delegates. He calls that whole system unfair, and legal experts, of course, say theres really no basis to threaten that lawsuit. Now, the question will be, will he be able to catch up to ted cruz here in the polls in wisconsin . With ted cruz ahead by double digits, this is a state you would think that donald trump could do very well in, a bluecollar state, an open primary, but hes having a very difficult time here, keeping up with ted cruz. N now, what will happen after this is another question. What will happen in the northeast, as the contest moves into the northeast, ted cruz expected to have a very tough time in states like new york and afterwards, in states like pennsylvania, where donald trump is falling way ahead there. Something else donald trump did today, he continued to stress that john kasich needs to get out of the race. Quote, he said, john kasich should get the hell out of the race. Really trying to make this a twoman contest between himself and ted cruz. Now, again, were here in the northwest part of the state now. Donald trump, now that this has wrapped up, is heading to a rally tonight in milwaukee. And then the attention shifts to the northeast, in the days to come. Chris . All right, Gabe Gutierrez, thanks for that report. Turning our attention now to ted cruz, whos crisscrossing wisconsin, where hes leading trump by six points in the latest online poll here and says its time for this to become a twoman race. If we get to a contested convention, i believe well be in a very, very strong position to earn a majority from the delegates that were elected by the people, and there are only two candidates whose names will appear on the ballot. Donald trump and myself. Under the rules, you have to have won eight states. There are only two candidates who will have met that threshold. Nbc news senior political editor, mark murray, joins us with more. And mark, weve seen a little bit of evolution from ted cruz. In the beginning, he was swatting away the idea of an open or contested convention. Hes seemed to have evolved a bit as the delegate math makes it more and more likely thats where were headed. Yeah, that really is his best path to the republican nomination, chris. According to our calculations, ted cruz has to win 88 of the remaining delegates to be able to hit that magic 1,237 number, to be able to win an outright majority. So its still mathematically possible, but very, very difficult, particularly when you compare it to donald trump needing 56 to 58 . And to me, the biggest challenge for ted cruz tomorrow is not only to be able to win in wisconsin, but to be able to win all of its delegates. To really start narrowing Donald Trumps delegate lead and make it very difficult for donald trump himself to hit that 1,237 magic number. There is a possibility that ted cruz, if he wins the state, can actually win all of the delegates, all 42, because not only is it winner take all, on portions of winning by the statewide vote, but winner take all by Congressional District. But that means that donald trump can come out of this with some delegates, even if he ends up winning the state. That matters a whole lot, if donald trump loses, but still picks up delegates, it makes getting that magic number a little bit easier for him. Yeah, cruz is looking for a kind of South Carolinaesque performance, in terms of what trump was able to do in South Carolina, where he won the state and his victory was even enough across Congressional Districts that he won every Congressional District and won the state, came away with all the delegates. If cruz were to post at 7, 8point, 9point victory tomorrow, we would expect something less than that, than trump may come away with some delegates. Chris, it is all a math game. And this is a very favorable environment to ted cruz in wisconsin. Not necessarily because of the theres not necessarily a lot of big evangelical vote, or were not way out west where ted cruz has done well in the past. Its just that the Republican Party in wisconsin has been very unified, very efficient, and very effective. And you can see how the stoptrump or nevertrp forces have been able to rally against donald trump and go for ted cruz, where we havent seen in other states. So thats the good news for ted cruz tomorrow. The bad news is the calendar moves out to the northeast, and were talking about new york state, were talking about delaware, rhode island, and pennsylvania. And that becomes tougher terrain for ted cruz and better land and terrain for donald trump. All right. Mark murray, it was a pleasure. Thank you. Thanks, chris. For more on the campaigns, im joined by tim carney, senior political columnist. Charles, let me start with you. So, theres a few ways of thinking about wisconsin politically, particularly on the republican side. Some folks saying, you know, this isnt this is a state youd imagine trump could do well in, an open primary, a bluecollar state. Others planning to relatively low levels of evangelicals. But in other ways, it strikes me more like iowa and minnesota, where trump did not do well. Ive heard that narrative. But when you look at wisconsin and whos in control of the wisconsin government right now, its very conservative. We have a conservative governor. We have a conservative legislator that control both houses. So i think wisconsin would be the state for john kasich and ted cruz. The other thing that struck me about wisconsin, in a primary environment in which the establishment has been more feckless, wisconsin has a very highly functioning establishment. The combination of youve got scott walker, Reince Priebus and paul ryan. And walker doesnt feel like the establishment in the antitea party sense of the establishment. And yet there is an actual organization here. And paul ryan, theres a lot of people who dislike paul ryan in a Tea Party Wing of the gop. But still, hes very popular. Much more popular than a lot of other sort of gop figures, ke a Mitch Mcconnell or Something Like that. And its similar with scott walker, where hes not looked down on as some sort of old george w. Bush, old you know, the gop establishment. Hes actually liked as a conservative, even though definitionly, he is the Wisconsin Republican establishment. And his numbers are high within the Republican Party, in the state. Yes, right. And he has been quite polarizing, obviously. Hes gone from three battles in four years. So if youre donald trump going against the establishment and youre trying to win those democrats that have that walker has sort of lost, maybe that was a good idea to come in and sort of talking about walkers legacy, in fairly negative terms. Yeah, pretty much, you know, throws him turned bus. Im also fascinated by Charlie Sykes has been getting a lot of attention from a very combative interview. And his sort of outspoken opposition. Youve got this sort of conservative talk radio belt in the suburban counties around milwaukee that has been the base of scott walker, and also the base of nevertrumpism. And thats where you saw where donald trump went today. To the western part of the state and up north in superior. And those are areas, those are pockets, antiwashington, antimadison, where he can maybe pick up three or six delegates. And Craig Gilbert had a great piece on this in the journal sentinel. The german and dutch parts of the state. You saw it in iowa, the dutch counties voted against trump. You saw it in michigan, where the dutch counties voted against trump as well. The idea that americas falling apart, that it needs to be meat great again doesnt resonate in places where theres high social cohesion. Where the communities are very strong. And wisconsin has a lot of those. This is an interesting point. Its been one of the most fascinating trend lines. The degree of social capital. Donald trump probably does the worst in highly mormon counties, which of course have incredibly high levels of social capital cohesion. Thats a place hes done worst. Hes done best in places that are the most disaffected, alienated, institutionally bereft. And thats exactly right. What hes saying is this country is falling apart and you need a Strong National leader to bring it back together. That doesnt resonate in cedar grove and in these towns that are similar to the mormons. If youre a disabled veteran, you feel the community is taking care of you. You see in every trump event, therell be disabled veterans standing in line who say, nobody in this federal government takes care of me. Look at the va. Trumps going to take care of me. And thats why he sort of fumbled the ball last week, not sort of, but really did fumble the ball. He got out of message. He didnt get to his message on trade and foreign policy. He got caught up in all this battle going on with the establishment. And he got caught up in abortion politics. Yeah. He was already hurting with women. In a clumsy way. He was hurting bigtime with women and goes and makes that comment about women and abortion. Heres my big question. One of the things that keeps happening this primary calendar is sometimes we end up overinterpreting the basic calendar array in terms of momentum. Its like Hillary Clinton had a big night, now Bernie Sanders fought back. Is that what were looking at with wisconsin . The question and tim alberta wrote this piece in the national review, where he said theres an antitrump playbook thats been used in wisconsin. Theyll try to use it in other states. That has to do with a lot of direct mail. It has to do with reaching out to conservatives. It has to do with dumping the whole kitchen sink. Does that only work in a nice state like wisconsin. Can it work in a place like california . Or new york. Californias a total black box. We dont have good polling on that at all. It does feel like the antitrump forces made wisconsin their waterloo. It does feel that way. And it also feels like there was a kind of unity of purpose. For the entire duration of the trump phenomenon, there keeps being this moment when you say, when are the, quote, people this charge going to get it together and unload with everything you have. The first place where it feels like that was really done successfully to me is here in wisconsin. So the question is, will it work . We just talked for the last two minutes if it doesnt work, then its waterloo. Its waterloo. I think its waterloo in the other direction. Mathematically, obviously, its not a huge difference, but it does make it significantly more difficult if he doesnt get a bunch of delegates. I usually hang out with people who do marathons and triathlons. What is their pace when it comes out of wisconsin . Does it slow down for donald trump . Does it pick up for ted cruz . Thats the big question for us. Jim carney and charles benson, thank you both. Glad to be here. Coming up, is he dark horse candidate for the republican nomination or a spoiler to donald trump and ted cruzs political ambitions . Why both of those candidates are trying to block john kasich from the convention. And a rare political postmortem the day before a makeorbreak primary. Members of the Sanders Campaign explain how things could have been done differently. Why do so many businesses rely on the Us Postal Service . 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Its a drone you control with your brain, which controls your thumbs, which control this joystick. No, im actually over at the ge booth. Were creating the operating system for industry. Its called predix. Its gonna change the way the world works. Ok, im telling my brain to tell the drone to get you a copy of my resume. Umm, maybe keep your hands on the controller. Look out ohhhhhhhhhh. You know what, im just gonna email it to you. Yeah thats probably safer. Ok, cool. Youto get the help yourefar looking for. Thats why at xfinity were opening up more stores closer to you. Where you can use all of our latest products and technology. And find out how to get the most out of your service. So when you get home, all you have to do is enjoy it. Were doing everything we can to give you the best experience possible. Because we should fit into your life. Not the other way around. Governor john kasich is focusing his attention on new york today, ahead of the states primary there on the 19th. Gop frontrunner donald trump is calling for kasich to drop out of the race, but earlier today, the governor hit back. Donald trump said they need to get out of the race, because im getting his voters. Well wait, no, no. Ive got news for him. Im going to get a heck of a lot of his voters, okay . Thats whats going to happen. Nbcs Kelly Odonnell is in hempstead, new york, with the Kasich Campaign. Kelly, they seem none too pleased by the increasing calls for them to make an exit. Except for the fact that it puts john kasich in the conversation, right . And it shows that donald trump and also ted cruz are both 3 c1 saying this. So, in a way, i almost had the sense that governor kasich was more than willing to be engaged on this issue. And important to point out, it was a voter who asked about this issue, who urged him not to drop out, and of course, kasich, himself, sort of worked it into his town hall program. And this is the kind of thing that shows us once again how unusual this year is. Because, in any other political season, the third candidate with the only one winning his home state, fewer delegates, he would be encouraged to drop out. And would probably do so. But this year is different. So his argument is that in the fall, he would be a much stronger candidate. And we had a chance to ask him some questions after his town hall event, and he was more than willing to try to game out why its important for him to stay in the race. I mean, when we get to the convention, theyre going to wonder who can be hillary, which i consistently do, and they do not. And thats why theyre starting to trash me. They want to dirty me up like theyve dirtied themselves up. And they also are going to look about who could be president. Now, we have one guy with no experience and the other guy whose experience amounts to shutting down the government and calling the majority leader a liar. That is not the way in which you get things done in this country. So governor kasich making a strong argument against the guys who are getting far more votes so far. And that is the premise that he is using to say that as perhaps cooler heads prevail over time, or if the republican establishment, which really make up typically the delegates who go to the convention, people who have been affiliated with the party, have worked on behalf of the party, that they would turn to someone who has the kind of experience that he has. And you know, chris, over time, for republicans to win the white house, they need to win ohio. Thats just part of the Electoral College math. And of course, as governor of ohio, hes got a good shot at that. So kasich is trying to say, he can be the sort of person who can give a positive message to voters, can tangle with the rivals, and maybe could be the last man standing. Its an interesting argument. Obviously, he still has to do some winning and some accumulating of delegates to make it bear out. Criss . All right, Kelly Odonnell, thank you very much. Up next, we have some exclusive reporting on the lengths the Cruz Campaign are going to derail kasichs president ial hopes. Ugh heartburn no one burns on my watch try alkaseltzer heartburn reliefchews. They work fast and dont taste chalky. Mmm. Amazing. I have heartburn. Alkaseltzer heartburn reliefchews. Enjoy the relief. On top of your health . Ay ahh. Ahh. Cigna cuomers have plan choices and tools to take control. So theyre more engaged, with fewer high health risks and lower medical costs. Take control of your health at cigna dot com slash take control. Could protect you from diabetes . What if one situp could prevent Heart Disease . One. Wishful thinking, right . But there is one step you can take to help prevent another serious disease. Pneumococcal pneumonia. 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Lets say hes won, and thats his own state, where he has the machine wnd him, et cetera, et cetera. Hes 1 in 30. He ought to get the hell out, honestly. Donald trump calling out john kasich, saying its time to leaf the 2016 race. Its not just trump, ted cruz is making similar calls, saying it should be a twoman race. They want kasich out. Nbc chief legal correspondent, ari melber is here. Its a rare subject these two cant agree on. Whats going on here . And they disagree on so much and theyre not formally collaborating, but as my reporting shows aides to both men say they want to move forward on a rule at the convention that would keep kasich off the ballot. They say they have the precedent. Political junkies have heard this happened in the past. They think these two campaigns, theyll have the delegates to push this through. That will depend on what the delegates do. I just spoke to one who was on the Convention Rules committee. The Key Committee that makes these decision and i asked them about the idea of this rule or whether all three candidates should be on the ballot as well as other nontraditional candidates. Take a look. Im told we dont have the sound. David weaver is one of the few people who has been listed on the rules committee. Youve been following this as well as i have. He told me does think it would be fair to have all three candidates on. In other words, that would go against what these two guys are maneuvering, trump and cruz. But he also said, and this is what i found from a lot of rnc members. The idea of adding another outside magic pony candidate, a paul ryan or a mitt romney, no way, dead on arrival, they dont like that idea, not fair given how much has gone on in the primaries. Rahrmy melber, thank you very much. Interesting. So could donald trump and ted cruz successly block governor kasich from appearing on the ballot at the republican National Convention . Im joined by member of the standing rules committee, randy evans. Lets walk through this. Heres my understanding, and ive been spending a considerable amount of Cognitive Energy on this, but im not sure if i have it entirely grasped. Every convention makes their own rules. The last convention made a rule called rule 40b that said that you have to win a majority of delegates in eight states for your name to be placed into nomination on that first ballot. And the fight right now is whether they preserved that rule, which would essentially just make it trump and cruz on the first ballot, right . Actually, the first fight is to whether or not you go from proportional states to winnertakeall states. Thats the reason why cruz and trump are fighting so hard to get cruz out now. If you have three candidates in the race, literally the states stay proportionate, which means no one getting more than 50 . But if you have two candidates in the race, suddenly you have winnertakeall states, where either one could make huge inroads getting to 1,237. Trump has a shorter way to go, but cruz could get there as well. Theyre really joins forces to say, we want him off these individual state ballots so one or the other can actually get to 1,237 by winning 100 of the delegates of a particular state, with just 51 of the vote. Now, youre also right about when we get to the convention. Because if we get to the convention and kasichs only won one state or if hes won two or three states, there would have to be a rule change to permit the eightstate rule, which states you have to have the majority of eight states to be in nomination. That rule would have to be changed. Remember who votes on that rule. Its not the rules committee that sets the rule. We recommend the rule to the convention. Its the delegates that actually vote on it. And if you have all of the cruz delegates and all of the Trump Delegates vote the same way, and say we want to keep that eightstate minimum in place, it would be very difficult to change the rules in the middle of the game. So heres my question about that. Theres the standing rules committee, of which you are a member. That creates a sort of template. That anchors what the status quo is. And then theres another rules committee that makes the formal rules for that convention largely based on that template. My question to you is, just how much latitude does theoretically, at least. How much latitude does that rules committee thats going to meet before the convention have . Could they just make any rule they wanted to if they have the votes . Well, technically, the rules even the permanent Convention Rules committee can only make recommendations to the delegates. Delegates have the final say about what the rules of the convention will be. Thats why i believe the combination of the trump and cruz delegates is going to make it very difficult to change the eightstate minute, if they both meet that eightstate minimum at the end of the day. Theres also a question about first and second ballots, or subsequent ballots. Take me through the logic there. What would trigger going to a second ballot . Well, if kasich stays in the race, and lets assume that kasich stays in long enough that it stays proportional. Which means there are no winger take alls. Nobody gets to 1237. At the end of the first ballot, nobody gets to 1,237, you go to a second ballot. And in that second ballot, about 75 to 80 of the delegates get released. They can vote for anyone. And at that particular moment in time, you start to see a different set of coalitions start to align. The real question then is will that eightstate minimum hold. Fit holds, all will happen is will trump or cruz get to 1,237 first . But if that eightstate minimum gets changed, then you start to see the possibility of a kasich being in the race i want people to understand this. This actually illuminates why this fight is so sequential. If they keep rule 40b or Something Like it, that has this eightstate mimd cut off, what that means is you have two contestants on that first ballot, and mathematically, one will get over 50 , right . There is no second ballot under that scenario. Not necessarily, because, remember, we did change the rules or recommend a rules change, which permits delegates to vote for somebody who is not in nomination. So the rubio delegates could vote for the rubio candidate. The carson delegates could vote for the carson. The unbound delegates can vote for anyone. So its still possible that no one would get to 1,237 on that first ballot. Now you can see why getting him out of the race now is so important. So that one or the other can get to 1,237, before the convention starts. I dont think thats going to happen, if i had to predict. Randy evans, thanks very much. Appreciate it. Thank you. All right, Bernie Sanders is talking to voters right now in green bay, wisconsin. Lets listen in. Racism against segregation, against bigotry, because that is not what this country should be about. Many of those people went to jail. Some of those people were killed. Many were beaten. Many lost their jobs. I will never forget, i was in birmingham, alabama, a couple of months ago. Yall remember that terrible innocent where a church was children were killed . Iful yall remember that . I knew that and i went to that church, but what the mpastor there told me, i didnt know, there were 14 bombings in birmingham in that month, alone. 14 bombings, trying to intimidate africanamericans from getting the right to vote. It was, in a sense, a city run by terrorists. Yet the people of that study stood up and fought back. And if you look at the womans movement, lets not forget, and many people do, do you know what the condition of women in america was 100 years ago . A hundred years ago, women did not have the right to vote people say, thats not possible. Thats a hundred years ago. Its not a long time. In the historical contest. Did not have the right to vote. Could not get the education they wanted. Could not do the jobs they wanted. And yet, the women of this country stood up with their male allies. They went to jail. Some of them died. Some of them went on hunger strikes to make sure that in america, women would not be treated as secondclass citizens. That was that fight. If we were in this room, and i want you to think about this. This is the essence of what tim was talking about and what im talking about. If Bernie Sanders giving a Pretty Amazing capsule of history of some of the social movements in this country. Civil rights movement, movement for womens equality. Up next, democrats dont have as close a delegate fight as republicans do. Bernie sanders has his sights set on a big win in wisconsin to make the democratic race a lot tighter. My opponent is telling the american people, dont think so big. Cant happen as republicans. They dont want it to happen. Well, in my view, when millions of people stand up and not let the Donald Trumps of the world divide us up, when we stand together, there is nothing that we cannot accomplish. Only those who dare drive the world forward. Introducing the firstever cadillac ct6. Jay knows how to keep nice shorts, dad. G. They dont make em in adult sizes . This is what the pros wear. Look at the lines. Uhhh. Look at the other line. Mmmhh. Thats why he starts his day with those two scoops in deliciously heart healthy kelloggs raisin bran. Ready to eat my dust . Too bad i already lled up on rains. By taking steps towards a healthy heart, jay knows hell be ready for the turns ahead. 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I fully concede, wisconsin has great Cheddar Cheese. Some sweet, sweet humor from the senate from vermont today. Were back live from the lakefront brewery. That was Bernie Sanders earlier today, over in janesville. The race is close. A new cbs yougov. Online poll shows sanders leading Hillary Clinton by two points. Hillary clinton is focusing on new york, while sanders is Holding Events all day right here in wisconsin. Right now sanders is holding a rally about two hours north of here in green bay. For more, let me bring in msnbcs kasie hunt, covering the this state, at least, would appear to be one pretty favorable to Bernie Sanders. Its all set up for Bernie Sanders, right . The electorate is whiter than many of these other democratic primary states. It has a long history of progressive politics. There are a ton of college towns. Lots of students, people joke that madison, for example, is 30 square miles surrounded by reality, right . Its the kind of place where Bernie Sanders can show up and get a huge crowd. And its not clear to me, if you look at the Clinton Campaign strategy over the course of the last couple of days, whether or not they suddenly saw a change and believed they could win here or if they suddenly sensed a blowout and needed to send her back in here to make sure that didnt happen. Either way, she spent some more time here over the weekend. Bill clinton here in the state today, as well. But clearly theyre expecting him to get some momentum out of wisconsin. And i think major question for the democratic race is whether thats enough to actually sway the state of play in new york state, or whether were still going to be left with this status quo that weve been set in. Its an interesting status quo. What you have is a situation where you couldnt have imagined a scenario where the night after Hillary Clinton won four states, the threat of donald trump seemed particularly salient to a lot of liberals, this was during the liberals. The kind of falling in line consolidation, it hasnt happened. What were seeing is a democrat electorate, a very sizable portion of whom, if not a majority, outright, really love Bernie Sanders. And their down with Bernie Sanders. Theyll give him money and vote for him all the way through june. And nothing that happens seems like thats going to change it. And the key is the money there, right . Sure, hes getting these big crowds and hes got the excitement of the democratic base, but what allows him to keep going is the cash. I mean, under any other set of circumstances, and i think this is something thats very frustrating to the Clinton Campaign, if not to Hillary Clinton herself, somehow the fact that hes losing many of these states in highly publicized ways. Hes been on a little bit of a winning streak in some of these smaller places. But that said, a lot of the people who are giving to him dont really care there seem to be a path to anything. I think the media are kind of included in not the enemys list, but the list of people many bernie supporters are frustrated with and they feel they want to send a message that says, no, hes not out of this. And theyre doing it with their wallets. And they will make the case, if its a four court again, you play all four corners. Theres no reason to not just keep running the race. We believe in this platform and this candidate and we believe what his organizing principles around a real genuine progressive vision looks like, particularly money in politics, and we dont want to see that prematurely collapsed. I think thats right. And i think Bernie Sanders himself will say, why shouldnt people in california have the same chance to vote in this election as people from other states. And i think that resonates. And look, i think a lot of people have compared Bernie Sanders to donald trump, or like the energy at their respective rallies. And i would say, i dont agree with that, culturally, theyre very different. But the anxiety on display from the voters who are showing up for Bernie Sanders and the anxiety on display from a lot of people showing up at trump rallies, you know, just bluecollar people who are having a tough time getting by is really something that i think has been missed on both sides. And i think its contributing to the fact that hes able to hang in this race for so long. I think Hillary Clinton was a little bit slow to come around, now Bernie Sanders even joked today about, oh, hey, shes talking about manufacturing now, shast great. Why wasnt she doing it before . Theres a times piece today thats kind of a strange piece. On the record kind of talking about possible missteps early on. And a little bit of internal debate. Should they have gone negative earlier on her and kind of hitter on some of the things theyve attacked her on later in the campaign, like the paid speeches. What do you make of that piece . Well, tad devine, his senior strategist talked a little bit with Andrea Mitchell earlier today. He said, i gave this interview to the New York Times a couple of weeks ago after we had all of these losses. And frankly, i recognized a lot of what he said. Its nothing different from what hes been saying since i mean, i first asked Bernie Sanders this question, did you do enough to win back in iowa, where they aired that antiwall street ad, in the very last closing days. And even then, they had to push Bernie Sanders to go that far. And even then he said, this isnt who i am. And i think the reality of this, the timing is odd. Its going into something where they might win, the narrative might change a little bit, but the fundamentals are still the same. His hurdles to actually winning this are much harder. But he, himself, Bernie Sanders himself, doesnt hes not comfortable with these negative attacks. In many ways, he first got in this race, it wasnt clear he actually had a path to the nomination with Hillary Clinton. I think he was surprised that he and his wife, jane, were surprised by the reaction they got. The thousands of people that showed up and the millions of dollars that poured in. They were not counting on that. Suddenly, they have the resources to mount this challenge, but they may have made some strategic mistakes early on that ultimately would prevent that in the end. Its fascinating. And yet, here we are. Were on the eve of what could be a big victory. And what is going to be a fascinating showdown in new york. It is really going to be an interesting race to see how that shapes up. And one thing to watch, i think, in new york, chris, is the potential for Bernie Sanders to hold many of these sort of trademark, thousandspeople rallies, but right in the epicenter of the national media. And i think there are going to be a lot of cameras turned on this that havent been before. 20,000, 18,000 people in the south bronx yesterday, which as a bronx native, cheered my heart to see any president ial candidate doing an event in the south bronx. Thanks, kasie. Still ahead, beyond the headlines to uncover the issues that really resonate with wisconsin voters. son pa, i know we settle for cable. 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Right now she joins us from a john kasich field office. Whats the kasich pitch to wisconsin voters . We can beat Hillary Clinton. I mean, their pitch is that he has the lowest negatives of any republican candidate and in headtohead matchups, he beats everybody else. Thats the pitch. Having said that, as you well know, chris. He also has great disadvantages. Hes down in the polls, hes also done in money and delegates. Thats not stopped these folks. Here they are. Theyre putting together the yard signs. Theyre going to go out tomorrow, around election polling places. Its snowing outside, by the way. They have people out and about knocking on doors, as folks get home from school and new york and you have these folks making calls about 12 hours a day. Including robert. Youre getting this stuff together to hang on the door knockers and so on. This was an oped published in the local newspaper. And you described, korean war veteran that you are, the research you did to decide to support john kasich. Tell me what you did. When you do Something Like this, you think, is this man telling the truth . Im from ohio, originally, the youngstown area. I wednesday to five different counties. I wanted to know, did john kasich do what he said he did . And i got nothing but positive replies. So that proves that the man is telling the truth. And i think that john kasich should be the next president of this country. What is it about him, besides the fact hes honest . He has experience. He said what he would do in ohio. Balanced the budget and helped the poor and homeless. He did in washington what he said he did. He balanced the budget. I think the mans a great man. He answers all the questions, when we go to these town hall, i notice that he answers every question that the honest would ask him. Is it a rude question to ask you how old you are . No, he asked me. And what did you tell him . Im 81. I want that energy when im 81. Thank you so much. Congratulations. I want to make one more point. Just five minutes ago, governor kasich called in and acknowledged around here, were in the middle of these wow counties, three counties around milwaukee that are the most republican in the country. He acknowledged about 38 of the people dont know who he is. But theyre going to try and get that number down by making these phone calls all the way through until 9 00 tonight. Chris . Chris jansing, thanks. Really, really, really doing his homework. This time tomorrow, wisconsins primary will be in full swing. Voters here could potentially change the direction of the republican race if they choose ted cruz. On the democratic side, a win for Bernie Sanders will give him a big boost of momentum heading into new yorks primary in two weeks. Joining me now, dan bice, columnist at the milwaukee journal sentinel. Has the race here played out in ways that surprised or were unexpected based on what you know about the political terrain . Sure. A lot of surprising things. That ted cruz has become the establishment candidate. Hes been mr. Antiestablishment his entire life. And here hes embraced by the establishment. I think i was surprised by donald trump when he started to have problems here. I thought he might pack up and leave, but hes doubled down in the states. Hes got six events in two days. And on the other side, we got to see Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton back to back on saturday night, see them both speak. We knew bernie was out working her, but im surprised she outclassed him. She gave a much better speech. A speech written for wisconsin. He gave a stump speech but she spoke to people in wisconsin. Talked about coming on vacations here. The crowd really embraced her, and she was talking for the general election audience. Thats interesting. One of the things about sanders is his consistency. When Bernie Sanders talks, you know what youre getting, you know its not made up. But at the same time, there are folks who say its too limited, essentially. It was. And he was tired. It was late on a saturday night. Hes been running around like crazy. But i think it is the same thing. And Hillary Clinton even got involved in the state Supreme Court race by attacking one of the candidates, telling him to support the other candidate. They went to both candidates and asked, would you mind making a mention about the state Supreme Court race. Bernie sanderss people said no. Hillary clintons people said yes. She did it and got the headlines. Bernie sanders the next day then went ahead and switched and jumped in and got into the race as well. Is the fact hes pulling ahead here surprising to you . At some level, youre saying that he she tailored her appeal to the state quite well, but he seems to have an advantage here. He does. This is a state thats good for him. Not a very racially diverse state. Working class people like him. Hillary lost here by 17 points to barack obama. 17 points, wow. So this was her low point in that race. The fact shes down three to five points is surprising to me. And shes going to walk away because of the way the state is set up. Its not a winnertakeall state. None of them are, right . Shes going to pick up delegates. So shell be happy walking away, losing by a few points and getting her delegates and moving to new york. Which is a much bigger and more important state to her. But i think it gives him a boost in terms of momentum if he wins here, which is likely to happen. Donald trumps limited or apparent ceiling here, which strikes me a little similar to iowa, actually. The way this race is stuck out here is similar to iowa. Shes stuck at 30 points. That iowa like wisconsin has a kind of institutional core of conservatism, not establishment, but not disaffected, that is able to sort of put their momentum behind someone. Wisconsin is the party establishment. Reince priebus is from here. Paul walker is from here. The Koch Brothers have invested heavily here and been very much players here. And i think there was a discussion right around the time of the mitt romney speech, that maybe we should create this as a firewall and come together. And ted cruz was the best fit for that. Even though hes not a great fit for the state. His religious outspokenness is not something that plays well here. Hes got a harder edge than most have. You can see the difference. Very different personality ies. Can you imagine any of those carrying the state in november . It would be very hard. Kasich probably could do much better. But donald trump is doing very poorly with women here. And you know, its so hard to predict in this race. You and i, neither of us expected donald trump to be where he is today. So i think its set up for Hillary Clinton to do well here. But you never know whats going to happen. Even in the 04 race, which is a low wall remark for the president ial performance recently, kerry was able and people call it a purple state. Its not a purple state. Its a deeply red and a deeply blue state. And in president ial election years, its deeply blue. And its more likely to be blue again, but in the nonpresident ial years, thats why he wins again and again. Hes never run in a president ial year. So we dont know how we would do. Ron johnson will face that task now. Thank you very much. Now heres Hampton Pearson with the cnbc market wrap. Hello, chris. We had markets closing lower today. The dow losing 55 points. The s p off by 6. And the nasdaq down by 22 points. Thats it from cnbc, first in business worldwide. Jake reese, day to feel alive jake reese, day to feel alive my school could be bad. Ing fast. 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Boost complete nutritional drink has 26 essential vitamins and minerals, including calcium and vitamin d to support strong bones and 10 grams of protein to help maintain muscle. All with a great taste. I dont plan on slowing down any time soon. Stay strong. Stay active with boost®. While the candidates slug it out, the boys of summer are back on the field, although it does not feel like summer here in milwaukee, i have to say. The brewers began their 2016 season this afternoon. Nbcs Tony Dokoupil is in milwaukee, wisconsin, at kellys bleachers, where brewers fans have been cheering on the team. Hey, chris. Weve been talking for more than a week about how people in wisconsin love their politics, but they also love their beer and their baseball. And all three are colliding here at kellys bleachers today. I want to take you inside trumps fight to win the nomination by going to two voters with very different views right now. Weve got steve here. Youre a trump supporter. Why . Why, Donald Trump Tells it the way it is. He doesnt sugar coat it. But heres steves sister. Why dont you like donald trump . I dont like the way he disrespects women. And i feel, as a mother, he should have more respect for women. And im just not going to feel good about that. Thank you very much. That is essentially Donald Trumps problem here, as he barnstorms the state, trying to make up a tenpoint deficit. Hes got some hard, locked in supporters, but a big challenge trying to convince female voters to turn to his side. Chris . Tony, thank you so much. That does it for this hour. Luckily, Miller Stadium is closed in, so theyre not freezing their butts off there. Im chris hayes. Ill be back tonight at 8 00 p. M. For all in from the lakefront brewery. Come by and see us and take some selfies. Mtp daily starts now. If its monday, what could put donald trump in cahoots with the man he calls lyin ted . Maybe its the threat of a contested convention and john kasich. Voters keep voting, but its going to be delegates who do the deciding. This is mtp daily and it starts right now. And good evening from new york, im