Demcrass in tde democrat in the Senate Dick Durbin joining us. And the president declared the terror group defeated. In less than an hour he departs the white house for a meeting at the pentagon. Our team covering this from washington and coast to coast. The president s attorney Rudy Giuliani telling nbc news he doesnt think he really changed his story on collusion. Thats what he says now this morning but roughly 12 hours ooh he opened the door to collusion between member s of the Trump Campaign and russia. Listen for yourself. I never said there was no collusion between the campaign or between people in the campaign. Yes, you have. I said the president of the United States. There is not a single bit of evidence the president of the United States committed the only crime you can commit here, conspired with the russians to hack the dnc. Herein, folks, lies the rub. All the times the president and giuliani have said the campaign, specifically the Trump Campaign, did not collude. Is it still the position of you and your client that there was no collusion with the russians whatsoever on behalf of the Trump Campaign . Correct. I mean, the upper levels of the Trump Campaign. I have no reason to believe anybody else did. There was no collusion. I didnt know the president. There was nobody to collude with. There was no collusion with the campaign. There was no collusion between the Trump Campaign and the russian people. There has been no collusion between the Trump Campaign and russians or trump and russians. Nbcs Kelly Odonnell is at the white house. Lets walk through these new comments from Rudy Giuliani to kristen welker. Fill us in. Welker is not working today so that tells you how dedicated she is. Rudy giuliani who is representing the president is making a distinction that its his job to only speak for the president. And he says if he conveyed Something Different in the interview that you played a clip of, it was only subconscious. We know that if you had a word cloud of the trump era, no collusion would probably be about the most prominent word on the screen. They have said it so many times. Giuliani goes on to say that i represent the president. I can speak only to the president and not the campaign. Despite all of the tweets, all of the comments, the president was not involved in nor does the president have any knowledge of collusion with the russians or anyone else. I have no knowledge, giuliani says, that anyone on the campaign colluded, but, obviously, i cannot speak for everyone on the campaign. So cracking the door wide open after the events weve seen play out. Earlier in different iterations you remember one of george papadopoulos, for example, became embroiled in all of this. The surprise arrest at the airport and then ultimately pleading guilty. There was this sense of, he was an outlier on the campaign and not the core group of the president s family and top associates. Then, of course, the manafort situation where they say that was about his business dealings. So weve got a differing stories, but today, giuliani is saying he speaks only for the president and not more broadly. Hes also talking about the special counsel investigation as a whole and reacting to that news that, according to the new york times, the fbi opened a counterintelligence investigation into the president to see if he was knowingly or unknowingly working as a russian agent. If he had known there was a counterintelligence investigation, he would not have cooperated by providing written answers to mueller and his special counsel team on behalf of the president answering some of those questions. He said that because i would have said that the investigation is completely illeyetgitimate ai dont know why were cooperating. He called the investigation the illegitimate child of peter strzok. He had a personal relationship with lisa page. You hear the president often refer to them in an unflattering of the lovers way. This is now giuliani chipping away at even their participation in the most basic bay of providing written answers. So that is taking it to a new level this morning. Hallie . Kelly odonnell at the white house, plenty to share. Thanks. Ill see you in a little bit. Let me bring in joyce vance. Elliott williams, former Deputy Assistant attorney general under president obama and adjunct professor at georgetown law. Aisha rasco, aaron blake for the washington post. Boy, gang, we have a lot to unpack. Joyce, let me start with you there. Lets break this up into pieces. Lets start with rudy telling our team that if he changed his story last night on cnn it was only subconscious. He didnt mean to but hes clearly trying to draw the distinction between what he knows about the president and collusion versus what he knows about the campaign writ large and collusion. Weve seen giuliani do this one time too many to fall for it again. Hes sort of the lost leader. When theres bad news coming, when theres a big shoe to drop, giuliani comes out and sort of immunizes the population against it. The first time you hear it, its shocking. This idea that giuliani has moved the goal posts on whether or not there was collusion between the campaign and russia. Now when the information, whatever story is coming becomes public, will be desensitized to it in a sense and giuliani has played that role over and over again. Elliott . Okay, i think what they need to do is put giuliani in a box and send him back to 2001. Go ahead. Hes not serving his client effectively as a lawyer or either as a communicator. Unless what joyce says is correct and hes lost leading here because he knows something. He says hes just speaking on behalf of his client, right . But maybe this is part of a bigger strategy. The question is, was the president a part of the campaign . Did the president speak to anyone on the campaign about what was going on, on the campaign . Because all of these things potentially lead to evidence of conspiracy. If the president was aware that anyone on the campaign was conspiring with russians and the president acted in furtherance of that, thats all stuff that mueller could be looking into. So rudy just walked himself, the president , into a big hole on this. To joyces point, this is pretty much what happened with Michael Cohen. There were a series of watering downs of the denials of hush money payments. They suggested they didnt know anything about them, were involved in them. Eventually giuliani gives this interview where he says, yeah, they paid them. Like he was involved, like everybody thought it was a big gaffe. He just spilled the beans here. But joyce is right. This desensitizes us so i dont know in cases they cat giuliani knows theres a shoe thats going to drop but you dont have to look far to see whats happen with Paul Manafort and his russian intelligence associate in ukraine. Thats in Court Filings that came out recently. This is immunizing the president against what could come out of that. And by the way, the idea that giuliani put forward that this was Paul Manafort who was only there for four or six months in the campaign, trump couldnt possibly have known about it, thats a healthy chunk of the campaign. Some of the most important moments. If a guy is there for that long and you dont know what hes up to, thats significant. Communication that happened between people linked to trump world in that orbit and between russian interests. Weve put together a graphic looking at some of that that our political unit put together. Listen. Nobody knows what you can draw the line from contacts and communication to something more nefarious. It seems what giuliani is trying to do is draw this distinction between trump and his campaign. And maybe legally that might work or help. Im not a lawyer. But he has to not just worry about the legal issues. He has to worry about the public and his image and what he has been saying to the public. He was saying over and over again, my campaign did not have connections. You saw it. To russia. We played it, right. If you are the head of this campaign, how do you not know whats going on in your campaign. Aaron has been writing about this. So we decided youre here. Well put together something that shows what youre talking about with all of these previous walkbacks that have happened. Joyce, as we talk through this, explain what the legal sign significance is from what were now hearing from giuliani. I dont think there is legal significance. Giuliani would never make this argument in a court of law. What hes really doing is hes making a political argument hoping that he can shore up the base. The president never gets indicted. If he faces a trial, it will be in the senate. But the ultimate measure of where giuliani has gone today are these just astonishing comments that he makes. I thought nothing could really stun me anymore, but listening to the notion that he says the president shouldnt have cooperated in a National Security investigation is just really beyond the pale because thats not an investigation where someone goes to jail. Thats an investigation where the fbi is gathering information that they use to protect our National Security, to keep us safe. And Rudy Giuliani has said this morning that the president of the United States, of all people, shouldnt have cooperated in a National Security investigation. Elliott, i want to get your legal perspective on that. Yes, he is saying and we have a line here that if, in fact, if i had known about the counterintelligence probe, i probably wouldnt have answered any of the questions. Is what giuliani is telling us as it relates to the president s written answers to the special counsel. We just had two days of an attorney general hearing where all of these questions about what the president should or should not do with respect to this investigation or should have come out. I dont think they did effectively. This is a breach of the president s constitutional duty. If he knew about an investigation criminal investigation and was seeking to not participate in it and not answer questions merely because they knew what was going on. So that is a big deal and legally quite problematic for the president. The other thing giuliani is talking with us about is this piece that came out from the wall street journal talking about somebody weve mentioned already in this discussion. Michael cohen. The wall street journal is reporting, and cohen is confirming via tweet that cohen in his role as Donald Trumps personal lawyer hired this i. T. Firm to basically rig polls. Cnbc, drudge polls, in favor of his client. The journal reporting that during the race, cohen asked the i. T. Firm owner to create a twitter account called women for cohen run by a female friend of this guy describing him as a sex symbol, praising his looks, his character, his appearance. Michael cohen, of course, was sentenced last month to three years in prison for Campaign Finance violations, tax evasions, lying to congress. Hes out this morning on twitter. He says, yeah, what i did was at the direction of and for the sole benefit of donald trump. I truly regret my Blind Loyalty to a man who doesnt deserve it. So we asked Rudy Giuliani about it and he says, if he rigged them, meaning cohen, cohen would have done it on his own. The president was not involved. Not a surprising answer from a lawyer defending his client saying, no, no, the president had no involvement of that. What do you make of it . But i think what this february 7th hearing, where cohen is going to testify before the house, this is the kind of stuff thats going to come up. We know all about the criminal activity that cohen has been charged with, but theres all these acts he engaged in on behalf of the Trump Organization and at the direction of donald trump that are going to be the subject of this hearing. And this is just this might be the first of many shoes to drop of things were going to find out. They may not have been unlawful. Maybe you couldnt charge him with something, but theyre definitely shady and definitely certainly within the purview of congress to take a look at. And thats what happens when you get a change in the majority in congress. Theyll start investigating the president and his organization. Aisha . You can see a similarity between what giuliani is trying to say about the campaign and what they are saying about Michael Cohen. Its basically this idea that President Trump or then candidate trump didnt know what was going on, what the people under him were doing. And like he just had no idea. And the question is, if you dont know about this rigging of the polls, why are you paying Michael Cohen money for Technology Services that you know nothing about . Why arent you asking for these details . Joyce is there any legal liability on this piece of it . Anything that puts, i dont know, donald trump on the hook for this, Michael Cohen . Theres the potential for some fec maneuverings if this wasnt reported as a campaign expenditure. Thats exactly right. Rigging polls is probably in this category of lawful but awful thats come to define the Trump Administration. But there are Campaign Finance connotations to this. If cohen was acting independently, he would have needed to report. If the campaign knew about it, they should have reported it as an uncompensated in kind sort of a service. So whether thats a civil or criminal violation is unclear based on what weve learned this morning. But there could easily be legal consequences. Joyce vance, elliott williams, glad to have you both talking through all of this with us. Aisha and aaron, lots more to discuss. Coming up new details on the terror attack that killed four americans in syria. Isis taking credit for it while the white house maintains theyve been defeated. Were live at the pentagon just before the president heads there. Back at home, americans are coming together helping those out of work because of the shutdown. Were live at one spot hosting a, quote, furlough open house. And ill ask senator dick durbin, the number two democrat in the senate, about where things stand about reopening the government. At fidelity, our online u. S. Equity trades are just 4. 95. 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Were working to make things simple, easy and awesome. Any response from the white house on your request on the state of the union . No, our request was just lets talk about when we can do it at a time the government is open and the people who are here to protect us are getting paid. That was speaker of the house nancy pelosi in just the last couple of minutes talking about the letter to the president asking him to postpone or mail in the state of the union. The state of the union is a political crisis thats paralyzed our government, and its bad. Whats worse may be the personal crises facing families all across the country. This week, more of those federal workers are being forced to get back on the job without pay right now. And if this shutdown lasts to early next week, most of them will miss their second paycheck. Those tsa agents keeping your flight safe, they are all working without pay with some apparently considering maybe walking off the job. And this morning, nobody is blanking, adding a showdown over the state of the union to the mix. Speaker pelosis unvitation was a calculated personal slight. And the president telling his chief of staff, we are getting crushed, according to the new york times. Later asking, why cant we get a deal . Why cant we . The 5. 7 billion question. Nbcs hans nichols is in alabama for whats call an open house held for federal workers. Good morning. Were here at the First Baptist church and getting a sense of how much this community is in need. They are setting up tables. We have credit unions, the united way, the food bank. Its a barometer of a community in need but also an indication hough willing normal americans are to help each other out. Now im joined by the pastor of this church, dr. Travis collins. Thanks for having us here. Tell us what were seeing. Well, in just about an hour, this is going to be a beehive of neighbors helping neighbors. And whats the need . What is this community so many federal workers here. What does the Community Need . A great deal of uncertainty and anxiety. U. S. News and world report called huntsville the seventh best place to live in the country, and this is why. Its a rapidly growing city with a smalltown feel. And it sounds cheesy but this really is a neighborly place. So neighbors helping neighbors. Youre giving out gift cards to families that have been furloughed. 50 to 100. How much money did you set aside from your charity . From us, 16,000, but there are lots of people here doing really super things. How is the community in general handling this . People are helping each other out but how much hurt is there in huntsville . For me, my experience is theres been a whole lot more concern about each other than there has been about d. C. Well let d. C. Take care of d. C. , and well take care of each other. But its a community. Well, sir, we thank you for being with us here. Hallie, that gives you a sense of whats happening. I think well see all these tables fill up. Well have a lot of people here because, remember, huntsville is a town, a city that relies on the federal government. So many federal employees here. The huntsville arsenal, the Redstone Arsenal where you have 5,000, 6,000 employees. Well report back later to see how busy it gets here. We look forward to seeing that. Hans nichols, thank you. Joining me back in washington is senator dick durbin of illinois. Thanks for being back on the show. Good to be with you. Do you have any plans to go back to the white house to negotiate with the president . I havent been invited to return. I went to three meetings and the last one the president declared it was a waste of time and turned around and left the room. If theres going to be a productive meeting and theyd like to have me there, ill be glad to be part of it. Youll go if youre invited . I have, and so has the leadership from both sides. If we can get this shutdown to come to an end, ill do whatever i can to make that happen. My other job is covering the white house for nbc news. And what i keep hearing from folks there is this line that democrats have not made a counteroffer. We havent heard from democrats on a counteroffer. We made an offer, they havent come back. Clarify. What is the democrats counteroffer. The offer was 1. 3 billion, exactly the same number the president asked for, for Border Security. He turned it down and said im going to up the ante and close the government on top of it. We said before we get into meaningful negotiations beyond that, open the government. That spot that you just had from huntsville, alabama, is embarrassing to think that in the United States of america were asking federal employees to depend on the charity of their neighbors to get fruit stuffs in a pantry or credit cards to go forward, gift cards. I mean, those things, to think were asking that of federal employees is an embarrassment that should end immediately. How . Somebody is going to have to blink first. Will it be democrats . How do you get out of this . Lets blink at the same time. Let the president open the government and sit down instantly and start negotiating to end this Border Security crisis, but the government has to open. Do you think the letter from Speaker Pelosi was helpful or not . Have you seen the capitol on the state of the night of the union . Security is five and six deep. Its one of the rare events of the year where you see its massive undertaking to keep the president and everyone else in the cabinet, the supreme court, everyone safe. But dhs says they can do it. Well, they say they can do it, but i think Speaker Pelosis point is the most important one. To ask them to continue to do it in the midst of a Government Shutdown is to say this is business as usual. Nobody is paying the price. The president may be embarrassed because of the uninvitation as they characterized it, but im embarrassed to think in the United States were talking about food pantries for federal employees. Another big headline this morning, Rudy Giuliani talking with nbc news after his comments last night that there was no collusion with the president specifically but seeming to open the door to collusion potentially between Campaign Members and russia. What do you make of that . Try to track what giuliani has said over the months about his client, about this occurrence, it changes so dramatically so many times that i really dont know where hes coming from. At this point, he appears to acknowledge collusion between the campaign and the russians. If thats what others have taken from it, thats what i took from it. Thats quite an admission by the president s own lawyer. And do you find that disturbing . Of course it is. In light of the disclosures of the last several weeks about counterintelligence efforts, confiscating the notes of translators with putin meetings and to have this acknowledgment by giuliani of some collusion by the campaign. This is a type of a movie plot that you wouldnt take seriously, but it unfolds every single day. Michael cohen will be heading to capitol hill to speak with not your committee, but a different one and hes expected to talk about this wall street journal reporting that he was asked to rig polls, he says, early on in the campaign. Well, fasten your seat belts for that testimony. This should have taken place a long time ago and im sorry the Senate Republicans arent joining in. There are a lot of questions that need to be asked and answered when it comes to cohen. I am going to ask you, you are getting paid during the shutdown. What do you do with your paycheck . Of course im getting paid during the shutdown and like threefourths of federal employees who are also being paid. Im working night and day to end this shutdown. I think thats the most important. Are you donating your check or not . No. Usually as most americans do, to pay their bills. Well, not those 800,000 federal employees. Any thoughts about donating your check in solidarity . Well, ill be helping them in the course of this. But as i said earlier, to think that were talking about a charity for federal employees who are unfortunately in a shutdown the president said he was so darn proud of. Senator durbin, i appreciate you coming on this show. Im sure this is not the last time well be seeing each other. The president heads out of the white house on his way to a meeting at the pentagon. It comes as new questions are being raised about his approach in syria. The killing of four americans there putting more scrutiny on his decision to withdraw from the region. 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Is there a remnant over there in yes. Can they not kill 1 . Can they not do their job . What i would say when islam begins to police islam is when i think its going to happen. But america cant always be the one that pays for it. Its not about america is paying for it. That was rand paul this morning, one of the few republicans defending President Trumps strategy in syria after the single deadliest day for u. S. Forces in the country since joining the fight against isis there in 2015. Paul and a group of republican senators met with the president at the white house wednesday. You can see them there. Talking about that deadly attack that killed four americans. Two u. S. Service members, one Defense Department civilian and one contractor. We have some Surveillance Video that shows the moment of the explosion and it is really disturbing. Witnesses say american troops were near a popular restaurant on the street when a suicide bomber dressed in civilian clothing approached them. Locals tell nbc news those Service Members ate at that restaurant a lot. Isis took responsibility for the attack, but provided no evidence to back up the claim. Just a few hours later, heres what Vice President mike pence said. We are bringing our troops home. The caliphate has crumbled, and isis has been defeated. Joining me now nbcs courtney kubie. Im glad to have you both here. Courtney, bring us up to speed on anything else weve learned about that attack, the situation on the ground in syria. We know very little more about the attack so far. We dont yet know the identities of the people kills, although we expect to get that later today or early tomorrow. We know it was two u. S. Service members who were killed, three more Service Members injured in this attack. What we should know about its been one of the Success Stories in syria in that isis was cleared out of it in about 2016 and there really hasnt been much of an isis presence there. They dont have the persistent attacks we see in other areas like the Euphrates River valley where isis still has a little stronghold left. This is a place the u. S. And turks have been engaged in these joint or coordinated patrols for the past several months now. Its seen as one of the things that was a success. The u. S. Military, Turkish Military are working together in conjunction with the Syrian Democratic forces who have a kurdish element to it. And isis really has not been a persistent threat there. What this demonstrates is that isis still has the ability, if, in fact, this was an isis attack. We should point that out. They are claiming responsibility for it, but that doesnt necessarily mean they were the ones behind this attack. If in fact, they were, this proves isis has the ability to go under ground and to conduct these lone wolf attacks, these oneoff attacks that can be destabilizing and deadly, hallie. Ill let you pick up that phone while i talk with doug. One of the things thats been discussed is the president , the Vice President have said isis has been defeated. Thats right. Lets remember what isis used to be. Isis was an organization that ran large columns that, you know, fighting columns, able to capture cities, recapture cities. Controlled territory, ran services, ran slave markets. Ran organized rape camps. They can do none of those things anymore. Isis is defeated. Does that mean they still cant conduct these type of lowlevel attacks . Certainly they can do a suicide bomber and probably rent a truck and ram over pedestrians again in paris. That doesnt mean that isis, as we understand it, the territorial caliphate is not defeated. There are those who disagree with you like marco rubio who tweeted the attack is a tragic reminder that isis has not been defeated and is transforming into a dangerous insurgency. Heres what Lindsey Graham had to say. So my advice to the administration is i understand why you want to reevaluate our footprint everywhere. That makes sense. But take this as a warning sign of what could be coming. Sounds ominous. Well, look. Senator rubio and graham are fundamentally opposed to withdrawing troops from syria so theyreuti using this as eviden for their case. U sis is defeated. That doesnt mean theyre not still out there or that theres not an isis presence in afghanistan or an isis presence in egypt. But that isis presence is not going to mount up an n ain armo cars. The Vice President came under criticism for the timing of those. Isis is defeated, lits rally hours after we learned of the death of mult pell Service Members there. I probably would not have said it in the two days following this until the families are noteifiified. Thats probably not great timing. The president is on his way to your neck of virginia, not washington, to talk about the Missile Defense review. This will be a big announcement from him and were headed back toward the star wars reaganera days. What do we expect to hear in the next 25 minutes . So a lot of this review is sort of theoretical. Its things they are hoping to develop and field in the years ahead. We wont see a lot of things fielded within the next year twoeor two. What people are going to talk about is the u. S. Needing to have a defense against hypersonic missiles. These are things both the russians and chinese have. Missiles that fly low and hug the nape of the earth and are very fast. The standard u. S. Missile defense in the u. S. And around the world cant defend against a hypersonic. Thats something the u. S. Needs to build out. The other thing is the spacebased, the changes to space. Some critics will talk about this being the militarization of space because theyll talk about missile intersepceptors that wi be based in space. Like a satellite that has a missile, an interceptor that if theres a missile launched by any kind of adversary, the satellite could launch a missile that would hit it and blow it up in space so it wouldnt threaten people down below on the earth. This is definitely, if, in fact, these ideas are implemented, this would be a much more aggressive and offensive component to the Missile Defense system for the United States all around the world. Doug, quick final thoughts to you. Look, technology is changing, and the United States needs to keep pace with new Technological Developments and missiles. I dont find that particularly controversial. Doug, thank you. And courtney kube, well see you in a little bit when the president gets to your office building, the pentagon, in 20 minutes. Also coming up House Speaker nancy pelosi said to appear at that podium on capitol hill, 24 hours after asking the president to change his state of the union plans. 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You should know congress and President Trump are all getting paid. The president does donate his salary every quarter. On this show weve asked the lawmakers who have been on, what are they doing with their checks . Take a look. Are you taking a paycheck during the shutdown . I will not be getting my pay during this period of Government Shutdown. I want to be treated like other federal employees. The last time we had a shutdown, i donated money to charity. Or my salary to charity. Even if i do again what i did before, its not going to end the shutdown. No, i get that. Im just asking for the fairness factor. People not getting paid. Some members of congress are donating. What do you do is all im asking. And some members are working their hearts out. Your taking a paycheck during this shutdown . I am. Im working. I have historically not taken my paycheck. This is a phony shutdown, so i am reluctant to not take my paycheck because its so phony. My paycheck goes to the food banks of west virginia. Donate your check. Do something. People arent getting paid. They sure arent. Garrett haake is on capitol hill. And garrett, you are expecting to see Speaker Pelosi there. Kelly odonnell saying white house officials dont expect theyll give her a response but its important to note this letter from nancy pelosi is called a request. But shes not asking for permission from the white house. Shes saying lets find another time. The president cant just show up at the house of representatives and give an address to both chambers without the invite of the speaker of the house. Theres been a lot of different ideas about how he could still address the country if hes so inclined. But theres no traditional, or anything that looks like a traditional state of the union without Nancy Pelosis buyin. Right now the president doesnt have that. Garrett, i have a question. Rand paul was tweeting if Mitch Mcconnell invites the from the come to the senate the same night, cant it just be the president s prerogative to show up and deliver a de facto state of the union even if its not a formal joint address like weve seen. Is that possible . Its theoretically possible. But it would look nothing like what were used to seeing. The Senate Chamber is smaller. You cant fit everybody in there. I imagine a whole lot of folks who wouldnt show up. I dont think a sitting president has addressed the senate since jgerald ford so ths is not a common thing. Its not a joint address to congress. I dont think the question that would have to be asked of somebody much smarter than me, a constitutional scholar, is whether that satisfies the constitutional requirement to give a state of the union in some form or fashion. Hed still have to submit something to the full congress, whether its in writing. Even if he came and just addressed the senate and just gave a speech to the senate. Right. Okay. Garrett, we look forward to seeing you at the news conference. We also have to talk about all the people caught up in the middle of this. Right . The whole country. Hundreds of thousands of people whose last paycheck was a month ago now worried their next one may be a long way off. This is probably, i believe, my third furlough that im going through while being at tsa. The other ones didnt last as long and i didnt have as much responsibility. I can manage just me and my wife, but now i have a son to provide for. I can only survive two to three weeks, maybe two at the most before, you know, before im evicted. Im out here to perform a safety function to help the folks out and to keep the Aviation Industry safe. But i would like to be compensated for it. Joining me, kevin bulger, a furloughed epa employee. Thank you for coming on the show today. I appreciate it. Thank you so much. Your wife is a preschoolteacher, but you are the primary bread winner for your family. Can you talk about your biggest, most immediate concern right now . Well, right now its a lot of medical bills coming in from surgery that i had back in october. We have our usual utility bills and then, of course, property taxes. Theyre probably coming in any day. So its a long struggle. And many federal workers do live paycheck to paycheck. A lot of folks do across this country. The majority of americans do. Is that the situation you find yourself in . How long can you sustain this . At this point, were dipping into savings. My last paycheck was 500. And that was more than most people got. Many got zero dollars on the last paycheck. So i think, you know, maybe a few weeks before you have to really call this. What do you mean call this . In terms of cutting this shutdown, you know, at this point. You say that this is the worst shutdown that youve experienced, that youve been through. Can you explain why this one feels different . Well, this one is because there just doesnt seem to be any end in sight. We dont see the light at the end of the tunnel. Ive been through many shutdowns over the past 35 years, but this is one where i cant see any end in sight. I imagine thats frustrating. It is. Its demoralizing. I mean, i think a lot of federal employees have been vilified over the last number of years, and this is just one more thing on top of it. Can you find another job . Can you get other sources of income . Well, technically, i would have to ask my employer, my management to approve certain types of jocbs. If i wanted to have some type of job in this field, that would be kind of hard. If i wanted to get a retail job, who is going to hire you when they dont know how long youre actually going to be taking that job for. Its and you cant go to unemployment or you could, but youll since the president signed the bill to give back pay, most states unemployment agencies tell you youll get paid back so its not worth even filing. The senator who represents you, dick durbin, was on this show a couple minutes ago. We asked him the same question about whether they are accepting paychecks during the shutdown given the situation that folks like you find themselves in. I want to play what senator durbin had to say. You are getting paid during the shutdown. What do you do with your paycheck . Of course im getting paid during the shutdown. Are you donating your check or not . No, using it, as most americans do, to pay the bills. Kevin, whats your reaction to that . What do you make of that . Well, i cant really expect, you know, somebody to be forced to give up their paycheck, even senator durbin. I think hes been trying to do the best he can under these circumstances, and i have even spoken with his staff recently because ive written letters to all of our senators and congresspeople here in illinois to basically do whatever you can do to end the shutdown. Okay. Kevin bolger, i appreciate you coming on. We are thinking of you and your family. After the break, beyond the beltway talking to steve kings people. The folks who reelected him about two months ago. What they think about those calls for him to resign, whether he represents them and their thoughts on his most recent racist comments. It wasnt offensive to me. So the people that think its offensive need to get a backbone and shut the hell up. I was just finishing a ride. I felt this awful pain in my chest. I had a pe blood clot in my lung. I was scared. I had a dvt blood clot. Having one really puts you in danger of having another. My doctor and i chose xarelto®. Xarelto®. To help keep me protected. 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Republican congressman steve king is turning his attention back home now that his house colleagues have roundly condemned the latest racist stuff hes said. In a fundraising email kings writes the unhinged left has teamed up with republican never trumpers and is pulling out all the stops to destroy me. So how are folks in kings district actually reacting to this . John hi Vaughn Hillyard is talking with voters in the fourth Congressional District there. Vaughn, what are you hearing . Reporter hallie, the type of rhetoric weve heard from steve king is not new in iowa, but you are just as familiar as anybody with this. You and i, we traveled around with ted cruz on that campaign trail, the president ial campaign trail in 2015 and 2016. Youll recall the extent to which he is a political commodity here in iowa, coveted by president ial candidates, chuck grassley, joni ernst, he won by 3. 5 Percentage Points in his latest election in november. The question is are those republicans that voted with him in november, are they Still Standing behind him . This is what a few of them told us. He said White Nationalist, white supremacist, western civilization, how did that language become offensive . It didnt. It wasnt offensive to me. People that think its offensive need to get a damn backbone and shut the hell up. Yes, i think he should. Why . Because of everything. I dont think people have the confidence in him now. Steve king, your congressman. Should he resign . No. Why . Everybody slips up. Everybody slips up a little bit and i dont think he meant what he meant and hes trying to tell the people that. Should congressman steve king resign . Yes. But if he dont, fire him. That first individual you heard from, mary grimm, i want to speak specifically to mary grimm, that first woman you heard from. Traveling over the course of the last two years on the rolled, i want to point out mary grimm is not an obscure voice. We have heard a lot of sentiments reflected like that, particularly when it comes to other populations in this country. We had a further conversation in which she said illegals were taking jobs here across iowa. She said that it is individuals like donald trump and steve king that have been blessed upon iowa by the likes of god. Why am i saying that . Because the very next individual we spoke with had a very similar refrain. Was making it very clear that steve king and donald trump have been targeted by the left and by these populations and it is voices like those that she will continue to stand behind. And to note, President Trump has not spoken out, hallie, against representative kings comments. Important note. Vaughn hillyard there live for us in iowa. Steve king in 2016 had more than 60 support in his district. Not as much at all in 2018. And in 2012 he was a democratic target. He was somebody they really went after. They ran the former first lady of iowa. Shortly before election day, a few months before election day he appeared at a panel at the conservative Political Action conference with a White Nationalist at which he attacked multiculturalism. Partisanship matters here. Steve king has proven to be very difficult to take down regardless of what he says. Well, and you see that that support is still there. Thats how hes been ail to get reelected over and over again. Theres a question, can he ride this out and get reelected again . Is there more that can be done to put pressure on him because of the things he said . But hes been saying these things for years. A long time. This isnt new. So clearly people knew about this when they went ahead and voted for him. We want to talk about the stories that you guys are working on and what your sources are telling you. What are your sources saying . My sources are telling me that the Trump Administration may be breaking or stretching the law when theyre bringing back these furloughed workers, particularly for the irs to do these tax refunds. What they say is that, yes, there are some exceptions in the law where you can bring people back to work if theres an obligation, but in the case of the tax refunds, they say theres no deadline that means that you have to bring people back to work when theyre not being paid and that that essentially is breaking the law. Aaron, what are you working on . The Mueller Report is an endangered species. We saw on tuesday william barr talk about how he couldnt necessarily send it to congress. I spoke to legal sources who noted that we have the starr report which was a bestseller, came out, everybody read it. Gobbled it up. We assumed that would happen again. He is operating mueller is operating under a very different statute that restricts him specifically. Barr is going to have a lot of discretion on exactly what he is going to disclose, especially when it comes to impeachable offenses. Great to have you both on set. Thank you so much. We wrap up as always with todays big picture. Today it comes to us from the alien universe. Not really, its westbrook maine but looks like something alien. A gigantic spinning disk of ice forming on a river in westbrook. So what is the deal behind this . Apparently this happens when a chunk of river ice hits the shore repeatedly and ends up getting rounded off and spinning in currents. This is a Tourist Destination for folks in maine coming to check it out. It is bizarre, perhaps a sign of the apocalypse to come. The photographer here brian snyder for reuters. As always, facebook, stab nnapcn sta. For now Ayman Mohyeldin is holding down the fort. Im trying to hold down the fort for my good friend, craig melvin here in new york. Today best defense, a president under pressure. His tv attorney, Rudy Giuliani, has dug a new hole for his Russia Defense strategy. Again, why rudys defined claim of no collusion now contains a giant trumpsized asterisk. The president headed to the pentagon right now. Will he address it . Also, the president s men. Its not just rudy causing the president grief. Michael cohen opening the president up to another possible Campaign Finance violation. How cohen helped goose Donald Trumps popularity polls prior to the 2016 election and why that might be illegal. And faceoff. The tenyear challenge on facebook not just to me, folks, fun maybe. But instead are you exposing yourself to facial Recognition Software . Well discuss that and what it means for your privacy straight ahead. We want to begin with breaking news. President trump under pressure this hour. Any moment he will speak at the pentagon. This comes as the commander in chief is facing incoming fire on multiple fronts. His onetime lawyer and fixer confirmed today that in fact he paid to have online polls rigged in favor of then candidate trump and he says he did it at the behest of and for the benefit of President Trump. And as we await the special