Transcripts For MSNBCW MSNBC Live With Hallie Jackson 20180924

A key figure is talking to us and us only. Rod goldstone the facilitator of the trump tower meeting. What he says he regrets and happening right now in pennsylvania, sentencing day for bill cosby, who might be looking at spending the rest of his life behind bars. Well take you live to where its happening. We have a Powerhouse Team covering all of this with our show, based out of new york this week. The president is in town for United Nations meetings. Before the meetings started, hes being asked about his Supreme Court pick. Watch. Hes a fine man, with an unblemished past and these are highly unsubstantiated statements from people represented by lawyers. You should look into the lawyers doing the representation. Judge Brett Kavanaugh is an outstanding person. I am with him all the way. The comments are hours after a new allegation from a former yale classmate. A warning, some is graphic. She remembers kavanaugh exposed himself. I remember a penis in front of my face. I knew thats not what i wanted in that state of mind. She pushed him away. In initial conversations, she was reluctant to characterize his role in the alleged incident. After six days of remembering, she says she felt confident enough in her recollections to come forward. What does Brett Kavanaugh say . This alleged event did not happen. The people that knew me then said this did not happen. This is a smear, plain and simple. I look forward to testifying on thursday to defend my good name and reputation or the character and integrity i have spent a lifetime building against the allegations. A lot to get to over the next 55 minutes. Jeff, the white house is pushing back hard on the latest allegation. Seems to me, based on reporting, this is the start of a new tone from the white house. Reporter oh, you are absolutely right. A white house official says President Trump has no plans to withdrawal his nomination of Brett Kavanaugh for the Supreme Court. They tell us the president views the claims as decades old, accusations that Brett Kavanaugh should fight against. We are told by a source, the president had two conversations yesterday about the latest claim as outlined in the new yorker before the new yorker published that story and the president didnt express change in his view about Brett Kavanaugh. Now, this is really another split screen day here in the trump presidency. Much of washington, much of the country is gripped by the slow rolling kavanaugh story. The president was headed into a session and got a question about Brett Kavanaugh. Here is how he responded. I think it could be, theres a chance this could be one of the most single most unfair, unjust things to happen to a candidate for anything. I am with judge Brett Kavanaugh and i look forward to a vote. For people to come out of the woodwork from 36 years ago and 30 years ago and never mention it, all of a sudden, it happens. In my opinion, its totally political, totally political. Reporter so, if it wasnt abundantly clear, the gloves are off. They are anticipating this thursday meeting to happen between Christine Blasey ford and Brett Kavanaugh. He handed over calendars from the summer of 1982, which dont disprove the allegations but he was out of town for much of the summer. The president is taking a page out of his playbook to defend his Supreme Court pick to deny, dig in and defend himself. Jeff bennet outside trump tower, thank you. Lets talk about the new allegation leveled against Brett Kavanaugh. There are demonstrations happening on capitol hill and yale, his alma mater. Thats what you are looking at now. Im joined by heidi. You have some of your own reporting on this as well. Walk us through it. Right. Nbc was able to confirm over the weekend these allegations by a second woman coming out. We have the broad contours that this alleged incident took place during the school year, the 8384 school year at a party that Brett Kavanaugh allegedly exposed himself. I will say, in the course of reporting this, it is important to point out the level of care that was taken by miss ramirezs lawyer to make sure when the story came out it was as full as possible. Thats why through a third party, her lawyer pointed out to us, for instance, they had individuals like a neurosurgery professor in new mexico who was able to basically say the emails started to fly between himself and other former classmates of Brett Kavanaugh when the confirmation came up to say, hey, this is going to be a problem. Some of his past behavior we are all familiar with. However, many critics are pointing out, at this point, there is no one on the kcollabot and two others who egged Brett Kavanaugh on who deny it. Heidi, thank you. Lets go to garrett who is on capitol hill. We want to play a little bit of what they had to say in the new yorker in a second. Garrett, to you, first. Susan collins office, she has been a key player. Shes not expected on the hill,g as this unfolds not just today, but throughout the week as we get closer to thursday. Reporter its going to be a Pressure Cooker on the hill over the next few days focused on the senators, including susan collins, the swing votes in this case. We are starting to see the kinds of protest, the kind of Citizen Engagement on capitol hill we havent seen since the health care fight with different groups bringing protesters up here, going office to office, making their presence known. Theres no reason to think, if and when this hearing happens on thursday, we wont continue to see that same kind of protest. A lot of this is focused on four senators who are thought to be key votes, susan collins, Lisa Murkowski who voted against the health care bill, thought to be swing votes on this from the getgo, jeff flake, he is retiring and bob corker, also retiring. Thought to be perhaps more free to buck the party and the president in their votes. I would suspect should dr. Ford give credible testimony on thursday is larger than that. I say if because there is talk among democrats, specifically, about the possibility of pushing back that hearing further. Senator diane finestein, the ranking democrat on the Judiciary Committee tweeting thursdays hearing should be canceled to allow the fbi to investigate this new claim of a new accusation. I think that request is likely to fall on deaf ears as we have said over the last week or so, the senate cannot order the fbi to investigate. It would take the president to do that. So far, President Trump has shown no inclination to do that. Doesnt seem like that is going to change. Lets play what jane had to say about this this morning. Watch. Theres a very sober background source who was not part of the party, not drunk, heard about it that night, he thinks or the next day. When i asked him, myself, does he remember this and is he sure Brett Kavanaugh is the person he heard about, he said i am 100 sure. Heidi, your thoughts. That is the source being pushed to come forward. As i said before, i know from speaking with a Third Party Source in direct contact with a lawyer, they have spent over a week to two weeks reporting this and talking to a lot of people who remember this behavior. Even if they dont remember this specific incident, but at this point, nobody is on the record. That is the challenge they are facing. Thank you. Garrett, another busy week for you. Thanks for being on. A quick flashback. Nearly three weeks ago, may zee hirono asked judge Brett Kavanaugh this question. Have you ever made unwanted request for sexual favors, verbal or physical harassment or assault of a sexual nature. No. Im joined now by senator hirono. You asked that same question starting back in march or april. Its something you have been consistent on. Earlier. You talked about the fact you wanted to ask that of everybody. Yes. Now that this new allegation came out, i would like your response. I feel as though i have been saying this for years, we need an investigation. When i heard about this, when i heard the report there may be another victim, you know, it just points out, once again, we need an investigation. Anytime theres an alleged crime, what do we do first . We investigate. The republicans are totally stone walling any investigation in their desire to fast track the nomination come hell or high water. The allegation raised questions saying did democrats know about this and why didnt they tell republicans . Can you clarify here . When did you hear about it . When did you know about it . Did you share it with anyone. My office was among a number of offices that heard about the reportwe contacted the ranking staff to pass it on. That is all i did. On the day the new yorker article appeared, Ronan Farrell called me knowing how verbal i have been in laying out the parameters. I said, yet again, we need an investigation. You said your office heard about these reports. How did they hear about the report about the second victim . Ours is not the only office that there might be a second victim. There was a report. We passed it on. Okay. As i think we should. You means in the hallway . It wasnt a letter formally sent to your office . I want to make sure im understanding. We got reports there might be another victim. We passed it on. That was it, until ronan called me. Theres reporting now on how republicans plan to work through this second accusation and aggressively contest what they call the quote, unquote, foggy memories of the women that accused him. The plan is to fight back right away and emphasize denials and hazy recollections. Its cheep shot politics orchestrated by liberals and embedded by the media. Your response . This is what they do. This is what the republicans are doing. They cannot face the idea women do not sit around making these things up. Dr. Ford, her life has been up. Women do not sit around making these things up. It is a hugely, personal, physical injury to a victim they dont come forward. It is one of the most unreported crimes. The republicans cannot face up to it. They would rather call it politically motivated. They are totally denying the credibility of these women. This is what they do. This is what they are doing to do. I think the women in this country and the men i refer to are watching. They are seeing how we are handling there. They know this is a set up job to railroad this nominee through without the documents we normally have at our disposal to resioux with regard to the nominee, as well as a basic, basic, background check. When they start saying we want to get to the truth, dont make me laugh. Senator, i would like to ask you to clarify something you said, roughly 24 hours ago with jake tapper. He said do you believe Brett Kavanaugh does deserve the same presumption of innocent. You put the denial in context of everything you know about him in terms of how he approaches cases. In conservative circles, there is outrage at the comment. Because this is a conservative judge, you have made your decision about him as it relates to the accusations. Can you clarify what you meant . We are not in a court of law, we are in a court of credibility at this point. Without having the fbi report or something, we are left with the credibility of the two witnesses. I said, his creditability is already questionable in my mind. As i said, we cannot have somebody on the Supreme Court who does that, doesnt get the basics of the law. Before i let you go, do you think theres another shoe to drop . Do you think there are more accusers that may come forward with allegations . Whether someone else comes forward or not, we have created an environment that makes it hard for anyone to come forward, which is why women dont come forward. Republicans, as a group, are afraid women sit around making these things up. That is not what happens. They dont want to give this person a chance in investigation, which i find appalling and unacceptable. Thank you for coming on the show, i appreciate it. We will see a lot of you this week. I want to bring in live, protests outside the office of senator susan collins. Garrett was in the hallway there. You can setons of camera, tons of people. This has been happening for several days since the first accusation came out against Brett Kavanaugh. You can see it looks like a Capitol Police officer saying you have to make space in the hallway. Anybody that covers capitol hill knows that. I want to bring in nancy cook and josh as we keep our eye on whats happening in the hallway. Not surprising more people are coming out now. This is a flash point for democrats and republicans, susan collins, Susan Murkowski and jeff flake feeling the pressure. I think at the white house, last week was prepping for the idea that other people might come forward. You know, sources stressed to me, don mcgahn, the top attorney, running the process on this, really believes that Brett Kavanaugh is innocent. However, last week they were doing mock hearings, murder boards and running him through tough questions and preparing him for the eventuality that another person, anonymous or a name attached could come forward. I think the white house, while it was surprised a bit yesterday, is not completely taken aback and sticking with Brett Kavanaugh. Thats the key point. On the left, you are seeing the protests in the hallway. Josh, does Brett Kavanaugh survive to thursday . Past that . No one can say at this point. Thats an unfair question. I was asking you to look into a crystal ball. My reporting says the president is ready to fight in a way we have not seen him fight so far. You can see from the Public Comments in the last 48 hours or so, a market shift in the way the republicans and the president approached this. You saw for the first week or so, we have been talking about this Brett Kavanaugh allegation. This woman should be able to come forward and be heard. Lets not rush to a judgment. Now its a shift. Republicans are describing it as a smear campaign. They are saying he is being unfairly attacked for political reasons. Going hard after democrats on the committee and how they are approaching this. What they realize, if its one allegation, now that it looks like a pattern according to multiple allegations, it is something harder for them to fend off. Stick around. We are going to continue this conversation. We are hearing from a key person from the russia investigation. It is an interview only here on msnbc. Rod goldstone is talking about why he set up the meeting in the first place. Our Cynthia Mcfadden is here with the exclusive interview, next. The exclusive interview, next ignition sequence starts. 10. 9. Guidance is internal. 6. 5. 4. 3. 2. 1. With its historical records. Ancestrys dna test. You could learn youre from ireland. Donegal, ireland. And your ancestor was a fisherman. With blue eyes. Just like you. Begin your journey at ancestry. Com. Now to an nbc news exclusive with a guy in the room for a meeting at the center of Robert Muellers investigation. A quick refresher. It happened in june of 2016. Arranged after one of the guys in the bottom row, Rob Goldstone sent this email to donald trump jr. He offered documents that would incriminate russia and be useful to your father. He responded 17 minutes later, writing, if its what you say, i love it. More than two years later, goldstone talks about how he sees that now and whether candidate trump knew anything about it. Great to have you on set. Great to be in new york. What was this interview like . He said it destroyed his life in many ways. He can no longer work in public. Hes written a book. A key point is he believes it was not his email that created the meeting, but the conversation it provoked between don jr. And his client. Take a look. So, you would agree with the intelligence officials, both past and present, who say that this was most likely a russian probe to the Trump Campaign . I mean, i cant say that definitively. Im willing to believe that i dont know who wanted this meeting. It was pointed out many times. What i had written in my email wasnt what was being investigated or questioned. It was the willingness to receive that information that was important. And possibly a crime. Possibly a crime. It was a dirty offer. Yes. It was a dirty offer they accepted. Yes, that is true. It didnt materialize, but, yes. Its the willingness to accept it. This is what steve bannon had to say about the meeting. Three senior guys in the campaign thought it was a good idea to meet with a Foreign Government inside the trump tower on the 25th floor with no lawyers. Even if you thought this was not treasonous or unpatriotic, i happen to think it is all of that, you should have called the fbi immediately. Do you understand why he says that . There was a Campaign Chairman in that meeting. Jared kushner was in that meeting. People say shouldnt i have known . Shouldnt they have known . Do you think President Trump knew about the meeting . I dont know if he knew or didnt, but it was taking place in his Conference Room with his Campaign Chair sitting and attending the meeting as well as his son and soninlaw. So, its a bit of a stretch to believe he doesnt know whats going on. It also goes against the relationship between don jr. And his father. He wants to please his father. He thinks he got his hands on something useful. Theres a similar dynamic between don jr. And his father. Its like they did it for daddy, both of them. Well, that is Rob Goldstone. They said there was no ask by either the russian government or russian intelligence to set up the meeting. Anyone who says there was is not telling the truth. You were talking during the commercial about a story related to donald trump in 2013. They got together, the families got together to do the Miss Universe pageant in moscow. The night before the Miss Universe pageant, goldstone tells an amazing story. The top people are in moscow. Hes asked a question, donald trump is asked a question about the greek bailout. Before that, have you heard of the apprentice . He goes on and says, really, im amazing, you are amazing, thank you very much and the russians give him a standing ovation. Part of what appeals to donald trump about the russians is how much they love him. You are going to have more tonight on nbc nightly news. Great to see you in person. Thank you. Come to new york more. After the break, inside the white house on how the administration is ramping up their defense on Brett Kavanaugh. A former colleague is with us. Well have that when we get back. Well have that when we get back looking good at booking. Com, we cant guarantee youll good at that water jet thingy. But we can guarantee the best price on this hotel. Or any accommodation, from homes to yurts. Booking. Com booking. Yeah and like my dad, you might want Medicare Supplement insurance, too. Uh oh, more research. No big thing. Not with this website. 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Okay, so, right now, 10 30, eastern monday morning with this new allegation against Brett Kavanaugh, the open hearing on thursday, back in washington, is still a go, for now. Brett kavanaugh and Christine Blasey ford are appearing and how the judge is getting ready for the high stake appearance. Joining me, former associate independent council in the white water investigation, good to have you there back in washington. Sorry, im here in new york. Kim, let me start with you. The Washington Post is reporting on practice sessions, murder boards with judge Brett Kavanaugh to get him ready. If the hearing stays thursday, how do you prepare for a moment like this . Lawyers, presumably in the room. I have never participated in. They are asking him the hard questions they anticipate the democrats asking him about this episode. I think the more interesting question is, how are the republican side preparing to ask dr. Ford the difficult questions. The way lawyers go about this, i know senator grassley is not a lawyer, but it is similar, parttime peach their recollection, the legitimacy of the story and given the most recent allegations, that is going to be very, very hard for a lot of people to watch. It could affect the womens vote in november. Im not a political strategist, but i think theres no way around a hearing like this not looking really difficult for the republicans in terms of asking dr. Ford the tough questions they need to ask. We are seeing reports getting attention between the white house, between Brett Kavanaughs team and the idea he is getting frustrated with the questions and the way the preparation process is going. What happens if that trust ends up breaking down . You know, i think thats a great question and i think its much broader than what is happening between the white house and Brett Kavanaugh. That is the question of fairness and trust across the board, i think, is really an urgent one right now with respect to this process. Theres three elements to it. One has to do with this discussion about no background check. George bush did one, then reopened the fbi investigation when anita hill came forward. Thats really for the benefit, both of judge Brett Kavanaugh and the people coming forward. Remember, they knew about the second woman, at least it was reported last week. If thats the case and they reopened the investigation, the allegations would have been resolved privately and judge Brett Kavanaugh and his family would not be in the situation. Two, it has to do with the hearing itself on thursday. Most lawyers say a fair hearing includes all the evidence. Now, if the question is, we dont really care, we want to move this forward, it is a hearing. Thats what we have seen with this republican led probe. The third part has to do with the integrity of the court. Thats my concern. However this turns out, thats been damaged and hurts the American Public Going Forward for generations. On the topic of the subject, the last 90 seconds, Lindsey Graham has been tweeting. We are witnessing the total collapse of the traditional confirmation of a Supreme Court nominee. Graham says it is replaced by a game of delay, deception and character assassination. It seems to me senator graham is echoing the frustration you see on the republican side. What does it say to you . Absolutely. As i talked to republican senators and aides on capitol hill, there is a sense their patience is growing thin. What they feel is that they have been a meanable to the requests from dr. Fords legal team, they have been amenable to pushing back the vote that they were hoping to have, the procedural vote on Brett Kavanaughs nomination. Privately, there is a lot of frustration. You are seeing that bubble out with Lindsey Grahams comments. Right now, the republicans, by and large, they are full steam ahead. They want to proceed with the nomination. Diane finestein, the top democrat is saying, hold on a second. Theres a second allegation. Right, right. Lets not move forward with this. You are seeing two different approaches from democrats and republicans. The line could not be sharper between the two sides on capitol hill. Termses have been said about thursday, who goes first. Who will question dr. Ford from the republican side. Do you have reporting on where that stands right now . That still remains the biggest uncertainty right now. Republicans really want to, at least some republicans want to have, perhaps an outside council or staff attorney do the questioning of dr. Ford. They are worried, you know, theres worry about the optics of, you know, senators on the republican side being too aggressive with the questioning. Thats not been resolved, yet. Theres talk behind the scenes. Well see if its republican senators asking the questions or staff attorneys or outside lawyers. We dont know yet. Thank you for coming on. Appreciate it. See you when we are back in d. C. We are, for the moment, here in new york city. So is President Trump. He is taking the world stage for the u. N. General assembly after the big address to World Leaders tomorrow, he will host a meeting on wednesday. Administration Officials Say its going to be a broad discussion about the spread of weapons of mass destruction around the world, he is going to single out iran. This is the first time they will be in the same place since the u. S. Pulled out of the deal earlier this year. An attack on a military parade that killed 25 people and hurt more than 60. Here is the thing. Even with that tension building up, secretary of state, mike pompeo says President Trump is willing to meet facetoface with rouhani this week. If he wants to pull aside with President Trump and the u. N. , is it going to happen . The president is clear on that. Hes happy to talk with folks at anytime. Lets get after it. I want to bring in ambassador Wendy Sherman and senior counselor for Albright Stoneridge group. Not for the faint of heart congrats on your book. Nancy cook and Josh Letterman are still with me. What is the most important piece of the puzzle for President Trump as he enters three days of bilateral meetings, quick pull asides we see at these things. What are we watching for . His tone and how to approach the u. N. General assembly, what hes going to do. I think hes going to lean over back wards to look like he is fully engaged. Hes got a meeting with moon jaein. We expect he is going to cave to moons request for an end of the korean war, a declaration for the end of the korean war. Hes got to be careful. He looks like he is leaning in. The u. N. , if they would only work together, this is a great place. This is so unlike how he was last year and so unlike his National Security adviser who thought the ten top floors of the u. N. Should be cut off and they should go to lunch. We are looking at video of President Trump in new york. The New York Times is reporting the senior aides to the president are trying to avoid this direct confrontation with rouhani. That holds risks if that happens. Indeed, it holds a lot of risks. I doubt it will happen. Rouhani doesnt want it to happen. He is portraying this is a country of resistance and i think the attack on the military parade adds another dimension to all of this and makes it tougher for rouhani to sit down with the president of the united states. Many of us will be sitting down with the iranians this week. There are a lot of meetings here. The iranians are very good at holding a full court press with press, with anchors, opinion leaders and they will do so all this week. We were joking this is like your super bowl week given your policies and foreign policies. How do you see this shaking out and what is your reporting telling you about who is shaping the president s view coming into this . We know we are going to hear from john bolton and mike pompeo as well. Theres a dichotomy here where the president wants to be the guy toughest on iran and toughest on north korea, giving it to americas traditional fauxes, yet this hunger to be in the room with them, to have the opportunity, to be out in front in public with massive characters on the world stage. Thats difficult for the president s aides to reck size sil. How do you tell china that they need to crack down on north korea . How do you tell the europeans they are not doing enough on iran when you are expressing openness to meet with them and give, to a lot of folks, a concession by giving them that facetoface. Ambassador sherman will remember, expressing the campaign and openness to meeting with the iranians. Now, the president is willing to do that. How about when it comes to north korea, nancy, we remember last year covering this. Little rocketman. This was a huge story, a huge moment. Think of all the things that happened since a year ago and the crisis with north korea and kim jongun with the highs and lows. What ill watch is last year, before the summit, President Trump and his aides thought Foreign Policy and those accomplishments would be the major things of his second year and the things they would talk about heading into the midterms. If you have noticed, they seem to have backed away. The president is cozying up to kim jongun. You dont see Foreign Policy and how the president sees his own diplomatic efforts front and center as you head into the midterms. They are emphasizing more Supreme Court picks and domestic policy agenda. Thank you. Its going to be a fun week for you as well. Indeed it is. Chinese tariffs as well. We are talking ant that later on. Next, another had min strags figure on shaky grounld. This guy, Rod Rosenstein with President Trump leaving the door open to firing the ag. Why they are saying shut the door and throw away the key. What President Trump is saying in a new interview this morning and keeping our eye on capitol hill. This is a live shot outside the office or senator susan collins. Demonstrators saying we believe Debby Ramirez and we will not go back. We are going to keep monitoring the protests, happening live here on msnbc. Protests, happenie here on msnbc. john foley i was there in chicago when bob barnett made the first commercial Wireless Phone call in 1983. Yes, this is bob barnett in chicago. john we were both working on that First Network that would eventually become verizons. Back then, the idea of a nationwide Wireless Network was completely unreasonable. But think about how important that first call was to our lives. 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Not long ago, ronda started here. And then, more jobs began to appear. These techs in a lab. This builder in a hardhat. The welders and electricians who do all of that. The diner staffed up cause they all needed lunch. Teachers. Doctors. Jobs grew a bunch. What started with one job spread all around. Because each job in energy creates many more in this town. Energy lives here. So, we have to talk about Deputy Attorney general, rod rose enstein. He did not answer questions earlier this morning. You can see him leaving his home in suburban d. C. , heading to work. How long will he be at work . A lot is happening this morning. He denied the New York Times report saying it was false that he pursued or authorized a recording of President Trump or advocated for the president s removal, via invoking the 25th amendment. We are now on rosenstein watch. Here is what he is saying about his attorney general. Will you fire rosenstein based on this . I dont want to comment on it until i get the facts. Certainly, it is being looked at in terms of what took place, if anything. Ill make a determination sometime later. I dont have the facts. Joining us from washington is cynthia. Thank you for being on here. Lets go through Rod Rosensteins future. I want to go Pete Williams. We dont actually have him. Pete, is that you . Yes, it is. Go for it, pal. What we are told is Rod Rosenstein is on his way to the white house right now. Hes been summoned to the white house, we are told. The expectation is, and here is where theres a disconnect. The white house is saying that he will resign but its my understanding that he has told people that he will not resign and if the white house wants him out, he will have to be fired. So, well know the answer to this in a few minutes. This all, of course, is after last fridays explosive story in the New York Times saying in a meeting in may of last year, he suggested wearing a wire to tape the president in his discussions with potential fbi directors and, at one point, rosenstein talked of trying to invoke the 25th amendment on disqualification of a president. Over the weekend and late friday, rosenstein issued two statements denying either of the two things happened. Other people in the meeting say he made the comment about wearing a wire sarcastically. Apparently this infuriated the president , as you know, hallie, the president s advisers were telling him not to do anything here. So, rosenstein has been summoned, was summoned a short time ago to come to the white house for a meeting. The question is, will he resign or will he be fired . My guess is he will be fired. He will not resign. So, if the white house insists that he go, then what hes saying is you have to fire me. Maybe they will stand down. Maybe this will be a meeting that comes with no resolution. But it does appear, from what we are told, the white house wants him out, one way or the other. Stand by for a second. Worth noting, the president is obviously mad at the white house. He is in new york in manhattan for the General Assembly meetings. His senior staff is at the white house and would be the one interacting with rosenstein. Yeah, chief of staff, john kelly. As you know, hallie, and the thing we are not saying, its not just the Deputy Attorney general. Its not just the deputy general. This is the man overseeing the russia investigation. And with rosenstein out, its not at all clear who takes over the job of supervising the russia investigation whether it would be another senior justice official like Noel Francisco or whether the president would put someone else under that spot which he could do under federal law. The president can appoint who he wants . How does it work within doj guidelines as to who might take over . Is that the president s prerogative . Yes. Normally it would be the principal Deputy Attorney general in case of a vacancy, but under a federal law called the federal vacancies reform act, whenever theres a vacancy in a position thats federally appointed and confirmed by the senate which is what the Deputy Attorney generals job is the president can put someone else in the job who is also confirmed by the president. And weve already seen an example with mulvaney put in to run the Consumer Protections board. Instead of who was hand picked to be the successor. That could happen. Again, the scenarios are these. Its possible after the showdown that the the meeting with jaub kelly thats to happen, maybe there will be a stand off and nothing will happen. You need to step down. Im not going to step down. You need to fire me. Were not going to fire you, and will it just end there or will rod rosen stain . It will be a pivotal move. Rosenstein has been the fire wall between the white house and Robert Mueller who is running the russia investigation. And, pete, presumably if, in fact, rosenstein does end up leaving that post as youre talking about either because he resigns or is fired due to being summoned to the white house, there will be members of congress who will raise hol y hell because of him being in charge of the russia investigation. Some republicans have said previously this would have been a red line for them. Youve had more recently people like Lindsey Graham who have said we need an independent investigation. It seems that the speed at which this is developing, it may not happen. Is that a fair assumption . Your guess on what would happen politically is as good as mine. I think were in unchartered territory. If rosenstein is out, we dont know what the white house or whether the white house has thought through but rosenstein has not been as often criticized as jeff sessions, the attorney general has been, but he has been a frequent target of criticism by the president. And as you know, the president thinks this whole russia thing is no more than an effort to get him out of office. Hes called it a witch hunt, and hes not as often but has sometimes criticized rosenstein and there was some indication over the weekend that he saw this allegation in the New York Times story as yet further proof of the idea that people in the Justice Department are out to get him. Just last month, i believe, the president , it was in august the president told the wall street journal when asked for comment about this that his relationship with rosenstein was fantastic. He said make sure they print it. We know its been somewhat more complicated than what the statement reflects. Thats right. And rosenstein is one of the things thats interesting about this is if you think about the history of Rod Rosenstein as we watch and try to set a record of how many times we can show the video of him leaving his house this morning, think about the way he came to the job. He had been a prosecutor in maryland in the obama administration, and then was a holdover. Continued in that job and was brought in to be Deputy Attorney general. Remember that he wrote a memo that supported or appeared to support the firing of james comey as fbi director. He wrote this memo saying that the way comey handled the Hillary Clinton investigation, especially the end of it, announcing that there would be no charges but strongly criticizing her, he felt that was the wrong kind of thing for an fbi director to do. That it violated longstanding Justice Department guidelines. And that was a memo cited by the president after the james comey was fired as fbi director. That got rosenstein in trouble. A short time later rosenstein decided to bring in a special counsel after members of Congress Said it wasnt possible for him to oversee the russia investigation assuming that the attorney general was going to recuse that it wasnt possible for him to do that given his role in the comey firing. And thats when Robert Mueller was brought in. Pete, hang tight for a second. I want to get to people onset here. Josh, the time period Pete Williams was referencing, around the comey firing. Its our reporting that rosenstein was feeling under tremendous pressure. He was emotional and really feeling the intense glare of the spotlight. A ton of pressure. And the key to remember is the firing of rosenstein is one of the actions the democrats have long identified that if the president took it, it would cause them to go to defcon 10. If rosenstein is fired and the person running the russia investigation is canned, that is going to put tremendous pressure on democrats to take significant actions, protests, legislation, to try to prevent the president from shutting down the investigation. What can democrats really do . Not that much at this point, but theres a Midterm Election coming up. This combined with kavanaugh will fire the base up even more. We havent seen republicans stand up to trump on anything yet. This will be a key test case. How far theyre willing to go to support him. Lets go to cynthia who has been standing by. Thank you. You know the doj well. Talk through if, in fact heres what we know. Rod rosenstein, based on our reporting has been summoned to the white house. President trump is here in new york, chief of staff john kelly is here. We dont know what is going to happen, what the outcome of the meeting will be yet. Cynthia, if rosenstein by the end of this day is no longer the Deputy Attorney general, you heard pete talk about the Succession Plan for who takes over the special counsel investigation. The president could pick somebody or might see somebody like the solicitor general step in. In your view, can that be a credible leadership of this special counsel investigation or is any talk of credibility shot through the window if rosenstein doesnt end up with this job . My guess is Noel Francisco would step in. Its important to know about him. Hes from the Federalist Society and out of the university of Chicago Law School and has a pretty expansive view or at least we have henced he has an expansive view of executive power. The concern is what happens with the Mueller Investigation is he controls the budget. Hes in charge. He can say theres no budget for foreign travel. No, you can look at russia but were not going to look at obstruction. So whoever is in charge and supervising mueller is in a position to limit what we can and cannot look at. Thats why its so important now. Lets go to Pete Williams. One other point about the Deputy Attorney general. Were talking about this position because jeff sessions, the attorney general is recused here, and by the way, speaking of his future, you know, my guess is that he will not be around after the Midterm Elections. I think that seems pretty clear, but for you were focussed on Rod Rosenstein. One of the critical things the Deputy Attorney will do here is mueller will write a report. But that report isnt made public. That report is a report to the Deputy Attorney general. And then the deputy decides whether to share that report to congress which in essence is to also make it public. Thats another critical factor here. You may remember a couple of weeks ago Rudy Giuliani saying that the white house might assert executive privilege over that report. Now, i think thats quite a stretch, because remember, executive privilege is intended to protect advice to the president. And thats quite apart from what a report to the deputy would be, but thats another critical factor that Rod Rosenstein or the deputy would perform. Thank you both for joining us. I want to thank nancy cook and Josh Letterman. A lot of breaking news in the last 20 minutes. And just to leave you with final words from the attorney general, jeff sessions, he was down in alabama this last hour. And he referenced never knowing whats going to happen next in the capital city. It seems as though that is coming full circle this morning. I want to bring in craig melvin. Our firsthandover with your new time slot. I know. You have plenty to discuss. Well pick things off where you leave them off. Good morning. Craig melvin here at msnbc. Thank you for joining us at our new home at 11 00 a. M. We start with that breaking news. Is Deputy Attorney general Rod Rosenstein about to be fired . Reports are swirling right now were keeping a very close eye on the white house. We are also watching the department of justice as well. Lets start with our White House Correspondent jeff bennett. Hes in new york city traveling with President Trump who is here for the u. N. Meetings. Nbc White House Correspondent Kristen Welker is at the white hous house. Any indication as to whats going on at 1600 pennsylvania . Well, its our sense that the Deputy Attorney general will be arriving here, so we have our cameras positioned to try to get a shot of him. What happens next . That remains to be seen. Of course, there is this report swirling that the Deputy Attorney general, his job could be in jeopardy. Not a surprise in the wake of the bomb shell report by the New York Times at the end of