Manafort faces. The judge told them to get back to work though. So could it mean we are any closer to a verdict. But we start with some Breaking News. An nbc news exclusive. Former trump personal Attorney Michael Cohen is discussing a plea deal with federal prosecutors. One that could come as early as this afternoon. Thats according to sources familiar with the matter who spoke with nbc news. Tom winter is the nbc news investigations reporter who helped break the story. Our guest is a former u. S. District attorney for the Southern District of new york which is conducting the cohen investigation. Let me begin with you, tom, lay this out. What else did the sources say . How close the possibility of seeing some kind of deal emerge today . Sure. So ayman, as ellie can probably well tell you, no prosecutor counts their chickens and counts a plea deal until they have it. Then insigned. And the person is in court. I think were still a little a ways away from that, based upon
Coverage of national and international news, including breaking stories. Prosecutors offices. I think a big way the Southern District got to cohen was by utilizing Evgeny Froeman Who was a state cooperator. So if the question ultimately is can the Southern District share cohen with mueller, absolutely. I would expect that to happen. If the question is what is your question as to what can cohen give mueller based on the reporting thats out there, we only have the sort of narrow view, but two things. One is the payments, the hush money to the various women who have made allegations about donald trump. That could be a Campaign Finance problem if those payments were not recorded as contributions. And the second, the big one to me is the trump tower meeting. And there was a reporting a couple weeks ago that Michael Cohen has information that shows donald trump knew about that meeting in advance. If so and, importantly, if it can be cooperated, Michael Cohens going to have some credibility issues. The prosecutors have their work cut out for them. If thats true, thats huge. Very quickly, from your experience in possible cases or at least working in the same office, how long would these negotiations have taken place . When would a conversation about a possible plea deal have been approached . Who may have initiated it . Both have to, you know, you need two to tango. Cohen needs to be interested in cooperating. It seems clear he is. Southern district has to be interested. They should be. And, you know, for what that process what ill be interested to see is when they go into court today, where are they in the Cooperation Process . Typically, the prosecutor will first debrief the person. And that could take with a guy like Michael Cohen, weeks, days on end. 9 00 to 5 00 days in a Conference Room until youre satisfied i know everything about this guy, i know what he needs to cooperate on. Its also possible theyre going to put in this plea now as a place holder and then do the cooperation after. I want to bring in msnbc
analyst dan yny cevallos. Hes at the courthouse. Let me play the now infamous tape. A recording cohen made with then candidate donald trump discussing what cohen says was a possible payment to a former playboy model. We should note the trump camps disputes the characterization. When it comes time for the financing, which will be no, no. No, i got it. So what are the implications for trump . Wheres his vulnerable exposure so to speak . It would mostly be Campaign Finance law. Was he aware in contradiction to the statement he made on air force one, aware that these payments all right it seems like were having some Audio Problems with danny cevallos. Let me remind everyone, the two different comments Rudy Giuliani has made about Michael Cohen. Listen to this. He doesnt have any incriminating evidence about the president or himself. The man is an honest honorable lawyer. I expected Something Like this from cohen. Hes been lying all week or for two hes been lying for years. Theres nobody i know that knows him that hasnt warned me if his back is against the wall, hell lie like crazy because hes lied all his life. Michael cohen cooperating with prosecutors, the issue of credibility immediately jumps out. Youre probably going to expect to hear that case made stronger from people like Rudy Giuliani. How significance does this become . Its everything. What we saw from Rudy Giuliani is fairly standard stuff. When theyre trying to keep the guy in the fold, its hes a good person, hes not going to turn on us. Then, oh, hes a liar. Motivated by Something Else . Yes, so you see that all the time. But credibility is everything when it comes to cooperators. Michael cohens going to be a difficult witness to get a handle on. Ive put on cooperating witnesses who were murderers in murder cases and, you know, that can work because you have to back them up. You have to back up the witness with whatever you can. Cohen in some odd ways could be more complex to vouch for the credibility of then even a defendant in a murder case because he has so many dealings that are intertwined. Theres going to be an awful lot. Theres going to be a ton to sort out and back up. This is a guy who once said he would take a bullet for the president more or less and then turn around in an interview with abc to say he would at that point put family and country first. A lot of people interpreting he was beginning to distance himself. I believe we have danny back with us outside the courthouse. Lets try that one more time. Talk a little bit about what
areas of trump life cohen could possibly connect for prosecutors. Well, Michael Cohen knew enough to negotiate deals with people that donald trump had affairs with, then certainly hes going to have a working trusted knowledge of Donald Trumps financials. That has to be what interest the government, the prosecutors, the Southern District of new york and as im sure they will share the information with the mueller team, possibly the mueller team. But when you look at this case, the situation with Michael Cohen, the likelihood that Michael Cohen was going to eventually enter a plea was essentially inevitable. The modern criminal justice system. The prosecutors hold the keys to that precious 5k1 motion for financial assistance. Michael cohen doesnt get the benefit of acceptance of responsibility at the plea, im sorry, unless he pleads. So it was a certainty that Michael Cohen would at least
explore the opportunity to plea, but then the prosecutors had to make sure that they were getting the benefit of the bargain and thats why it likely took a long time. Not only to hammer out all right, so it seems like we may have lost danny. Let me ask you this question because you brought this up, very interesting. The federal judge has wrapped up the review of the evidence that was seized and the documents and what possible other evidence there may have been that were possibly subject to Attorney Client privilege. That process concluded today. It did. Did you think theres significance in the timing of that process being completed and this news you are breaking today . Im glad you asked. I think that i think that its an i dotting, a t crossing, if you will, but i think this investigation has been under way for a very long time. They were able to secure a judge approved warrant to get materials from attorneys, from his house, from his law office. Thats not easy. Thats not something thats
thank you guys very much. Coming, up keep going with the Breaking News in the Paul Manafort trial, judge keeps the jury to keep working after they asked a question about one single count of the 18 he currently faces. Will it end soon . Plus, hacking democracy. The very latest sign that russia is actively and aggressively trying to affect our political system. And this time, its targeting conservative groups. And it does not look good. Thats the president s lawyers take on today on the likelihood of a sitdown interview with bob mueller. The very latest from Rudy Giuliani. Dear greatgreat grandfather, you made moonshine in a backwoods still. Smuggled booze and dodged the law. Even when they brought you in, they could never hold you down. When i built my family tree and found you, i found my sense of adventure. I set off on a new life, a million miles away. Im heidi choiniere, and this is my ancestry story. Now with over 10 billion historical records, discover your story. Get started for free at ancestry. Com where people go to learn about their Medicare Options before theyre on medicare. Come on in. Youre turning 65 soon . Yep. And youre retiring at 67 . Thats the plan its also a great time to learn about an aarp Medicare Supplement insurance plan, insured by Unitedhealthcare Insurance Company. Heres why. Medicare part b doesnt pay for everything. This part is up to you. A Medicare Supplement plan helps pay for some of what medicare doesnt. Call Unitedhealthcare Insurance Company today to request this free decision guide. And learn about the only Medicare Supplement plans endorsed by aarp. Selected for meeting their high standards of quality and service. This type of plan lets you say yes
to any doctor or hospital that accepts medicare patients. Do you accept medicare patients . I sure do so Call Unitedhealthcare today and ask for your free decision guide. Oh, and happy birthday. Or retirement. In advance. Applebees to go. Order online and get 5 off 25. Now thats eatin good in the neighborhood. More Breaking News now. Dramatic new developments at the bank and Tax Fraud Trial of former Campaign Chairman manafort. On day four of deliberations, the jury has just indicated theyre actually struggling to reach a unanimous verdict on at least one of the counts he is facing. Theyve sent the judge a question about it. Delawnian has following the case for us. And doug burns joins me here on set. He is a former form prosecutor. Ken, talk to us about the question the jury asked the judge. How did judge ellis respond. Break it down for us. Well, first, i want to read the question to you, ayman, because the text is important. If we cannot come to a consensus on a single count, how should we fill in the verdict form for that count . So it suggests theyre not deadlocked on all of the counts so they wouldnt have asked the question that way. Theres also a possibility its more than one count. If you substitute individual or particular for that word single, it could mean theyre deadlocked on some of the counts and theyre trying to fill out the jury form. The judge asked them to look at the form again. And then he also gave them whats known as an allen charge. Which is language that you use when a jury is deadlocked on a particular issue to explain to them that, look, theres going to be no better jury, please go back and have at it again and try to come to some decision. Then they sent them back to the jury room. Danny, let me get your take on this. If the jury cant reach consensus on a single count, would this result in a hung jury . So they would be hung on whatever counts they cant reach an agreement on. But the judge also indicated after, to the lawyers, after he sent the jury back, that if they are remain deadlocked on one or more counts, he would ask them how many counts they had already reached a verdict on. And then he would consider taking whats called a partial verdict, which means to accept a verdict from the jury on only on those accounts on which theyre unanimous. And then they would have to determine how many of those counts are and whether its worth sending them back to continue deliberating on the remaining counts. Not all counts are equal in this indictment. We talk about 18 counts. But some have much greater impact on sentencing than others. So it really would depend on which specific counts the jury remains deadlocked, on whether they would continue deliberating. I want our team to put up this graphic on the question that was asked of the judge, because, daniel, i want to get your take on this. Do you believe the jury has reached a consensus on most of the counts or is it unclear from
the note . Because the last part of that question i think some are speculating that what does the single decision mean for the rest of the verdict . And so some are interpreting that as possibly meaning there is a consensus on some of the other counts but one remains undecided. So i was in there for this whole back and forth. And my takeaway, and i think that the judge agreed with this, since he was discussing the idea of a partial verdict, is the implication is obvious that theyve reached a verdict on some of the counts. Its impossible to tell how many. They do use the word a single count. As ken pointed out, a single count could just be a different way of saying any individual count. So i think its a little too soon to speculate as to how many counts they are deadlocked on and how many counts they have reached agreement. I will say that from my reading of the jury questions we got last thursday evening, i got the sense that as most juries do,
theyre moving through the indictment 1 through 18. And the first five counts are tax fraud. Their questions last week related to the second group of counts on Filing Foreign bank account reports. And the implication from that question is they had already reached a verdict on the tax fraud counts. So as i sit here and this is speculation trying to read the tea leaves, but i believe they have reached the guilty verdict on the tax fraught counts and the remaining deadlocked counts could be one or more of the Foreign Bank Account or the bank fraud accounts. Let me get your take on this. Its day four of the deliberations. Todays questions, some of this analysis weve been hearing from daniel and ken. How close are we to a verdict . How do you read what is playing out now . I think you are fairly close. I think the we cant agree on
a single thing, but thats not the context of it, you follow me. In other words, we cant agree on a single account, jumps out as first we cant agree on anything. Then they say what do we do with that count on sheet clearly implies to me in my 30plus years of trying cases they have reached a verdict with respect to some of the counts. Its likely an agreement with the tax count. Remember, in the famous now four questions they sent out, one of them had to do with the fbar report and what level of ownership was required. If theres a deadlock, again, were reading tea leaves. I think theyve reached the verdict as daniel said with the tax counts and may have some deadlock with the, you know, other counts in the indictment. Okay so you may then be here asked to speculate a little bit. If youre bob mueller and youre watching this, what do you think in terms of day four deliberations, this question, the point that daniel made about the questions on thursday evening . How do you think its going from Robert Muellers perspective . He would be pleased. Because the alternative of course would be, you know, we really cant Reach Agreement on any of the counts, okay, a totally different note. That would have been really difficult. So the point is i think muellers probably relatively happy. And then real quick, lastly, as has been explained, i mean, you can take a verdict on counts where theres an agreement and you can ostensibly have a mistrial. So on that point, from the perspective that there could be could be census, would it necessarily be a victory or defeat folk bob mueller if he gets a conviction on a handful of accounts and not all 18 . Thats the threshold on this being successful for bob mueller or failure . You know, thats a tough question, ayman. Because a lot of it depends on which counts. Generally speaking from a prosecutors standpoint, a conviction is a conviction. They can make arguments at sentencing as it relates to the other counts. So in a normal case, this is not
a normal case, 1 out of 18 is a victory. Theres a terrorism case in the Southern District of new york where the jury convicted on one of nearly 300 counts. Acquitted on the remaining ones. The defendant went to jail for life because he had the one conviction. So from a prosecutors standpoint, thats ordinarily how we look at it. From this in this case under these circumstances, all bets are off. Its such a politicized investigation. Im sure everyone will be spinning it in whichever way favors their own views. All right, gentleman, before i let you go. We just got an update. A third significant story of the day. This is according to prosecutors for Robert Mueller, attorneys for Michael Flynn. They have now updated the court on the status of this case. They say that, quote, due to the status of its investigation, the special counsels office does not believe this matter is ready to be scheduled for sentencing at this time. Both sides say theyll update the court in 30 days in i guess in or around september 17th. Significant here is Michael Flynns sentencing has been delayed. How do you interpret that . Does that mean hes cooperating, hes providing something valuable . The prosecution still has more they want from him . Once again, frustrating response. Not at all. Youre the expert. Two sides to it. One is, its a pro forma normal thing. Any of us who served as u. S. District attorney knows. Your point is well taken, it could be theres some additional new development. Theres been some more sitdowns. Again, looking from the outside in, ayman, we really cant definitively say. Your take, on the Michael Flynn development . Yes, i would say that its unlikely theyre getting more information from flynn. But they have the information they need. And what is clear from the need to adjourn it is that they still need Michael Flynn. Prosecutors need cooperating witnesses. As we saw here with rick gates. All the way through any trial
against anyone else. They would have to testify. So the fact theyre delaying flynn means theres more coming down the pipeline from the special counsel. What an absolutely significant day here. Three of the president s closest inner circle confidants in the white house, before the white house, a lot of developments today. Ken dilaniandilanian, thank you joining us. Hacking democracy. Russias latest attempt to attack our political system. Trumps only response, more talk about who can see the intel. Needles. Essential for the cactus, but maybe not for people with rheumatoid arthritis. Because there are options. Like an unjection™. Xeljanz xr. A oncedaily pill for adults with moderate to severe ra for whom methotrexate did not work well enough. Xeljanz xr can reduce pain, swelling and further joint
damage, even without methotrexate. Xeljanz xr can lower your ability to fight infections, including tuberculosis. Serious, sometimes fatal infections, lymphoma and other cancers have happened. Dont start xeljanz xr if you have an infection. Tears in the stomach or intestines, low Blood Cell Counts and higher liver tests and cholesterol levels have happened. Your doctor should perform blood tests before you start and while taking xeljanz xr, and monitor certain liver tests. Tell you doctor if you were in a region where fungal infections are common and if you have had tb, hepatitis b or c, or are prone to infections. Needles. Fine for some things. But for you, one pill a day may provide symptom relief. Ask your doctor about xeljanz xr. An unjection™. I grew up in the forests out in this area and honestly its heartbreaking to see all these trees dying. What guides me is ensuring that the public is going to be safer and that these forests can be sustained and enjoyed by the community in the future. This is live look at the federal courthouse in virginia where jurors are deliberating of fate of Paul Manafort. A lot of action today with legal analyst also say a juror question to the judge about 1 of the 18 counts against him may indicate that some consensus appears to be forming Aan Morniamong the jurors. Were monitoring events and will bring them to you. Now President Trump. The very latest russia hack. During two separate hearings with members of his administration, senators from both parties questioned the white houses commitment to
safeguarding our elections. Their latest concern, microsofts announcement that it had shut down a Phishing Attack aimed at Senate Offices and two conservative think tanks. Watch this. Some of the undisciplined comments that the president makes creates just as much trouble for these people as they do for us. And the rest of our country. True to form, the kremlin promptly denied involvement. That is nonsense. The president should call it that and forcefully respond. Julia ainsley, malcolm nance, nbc terrorism analyst. And clint watt, msnbc Security Analy analyst. Jim, tell us more about what we learned about the hack targeting senators. Ayman, so this is microsoft blowing the horn here, not the government. Theyre saying there are conservatives think tanks. One of those is the hudson
institute. These are conservative but they havent always been in line with the white house policy, particularly when they say there should be harder sanctions against russia and theyve spoken out against some Human Rights Abuses in russia. They say people can come on to these websites, think theyre Reading Materials published by these think tanks or think they might be supporting them when theyre being led to things that are controlled and being published by perhaps the gru, that same group that was involved in the Hacking Attacks that mueller laid out in his latest indictment. So they are really using kind of classic Phishing Software here in some ways and leading them into places where they might kind of be going under a guise of one of these conservative think tanks. We heard the senators say the white house needs to do more about this. This is a red flag that shows midterm interference could be just as dangerous as 2016 interference. The white house, you know, weve seen people from secretary nielsen to wray, the fbi
director, saying theyre taking Election Interference seriously. When the president flipflops and just last month said he didnt see continuing interference from russia, it makes it hard to have a hard line on issues just like this, ayman. This may be a bit of a shock to some viewers that theres mixed messaging coming out of the white house. Im joking about this one. Its called routine. Let me play you the white house responses. This is deputy press secretary, watch. The president has said and called out Vladimir Putin. One of the first questions he asked was about russia meddling. Vladimir putin said that was the first question i got from President Trump. He knows it occurred. He wants it stopped. He finds it unacceptable. Thats a kdefinitive statement. Listen to what the president had to do. So this is from his interview i believe with roeuters on monday. He said the russia probe played
right into the russians hands. So hes Casting Doubt, the president is Casting Doubt that it may have been the russians. Does this dual message mar our National Security response to this . Trumps two sides to the hacking discussion. One day, ill say this. One day ill say the exact opposite of it. It does cast doubt. It sends a signal. Indirectly sends a signal to russia. Continue to do whatever youre doing. I dont care. And if he did care, he would at least defend his own Political Party in this case. Were now seeing gop targets. Again. This has happened before. Going back to the 2016 election cycle. Senator rubio said that he was hacked. Were seeing this again. We saw think tanks in 2016 that were targeted. We see this again in 2018. The Hudson Institute was one that was critical of russia. They had a project which really talked about the workings of the kremlin. All of this essentially says if
you resist russia in anyway, youre going to be a target. They will only do that because the president , his administrations not taking a tough stance on the cyber front. So the interesting thing in that sound bite we played there, malcolm, was you heard hogan talk about how we know Vladimir Putin referenced that meeting where the president asked him about the russian meddling. Its interesting because bob corker made an interesting comment today. He said that more than a month since that helsinki summit, the senate still does not know what was said in that private twohour meeting with putin. Take a listen. Wed like to understand what was agreed to. The leaders of our two countries sat down in helsinki. Where their discussions regarding current or future arms control agreements. What other promises or assurances were made . To date, we have received no real readout, even in a classified setting of this meeting. So we really cant get a sense of what actually happened. Thats corker saying they cant even get that in a classified
setting. What, if any, malcolm, is the justification for that . Is there even a justification for the fact that our own lawmakers cant get a read of what happened in that meeting . Well, in a normal world, there would be no justification for it. Everyone would demand that the information be shared and transparency be events from the white house. However, this is not a formal world. This is donald trump world. At this point, i wouldnt be surprised if tomorrow morning they announced that the u. S. Joint cyber unit with russia is going to come into this and start investigating cyberattacks from fancy bear, which are set up all of these type of squatting fake websites where they can steal information from the United States senate and these conservative think tanks. We really need to understand that these initiatives start from the commander in chief, and if he doesnt believe them, nothing is going to be done. This election could be i dont even use the word meddle. This election could be attacked. And american democracy could
move away from free and fair elections. To the point that malcolm brought up, clint, three weeks or so ago, you had the white house bring out their top National Security officials, dna, director of codes. You had Homeland Security secretary nielsen. Chris wray from the fbi. All to talk about how theyre taking the threat of Election Hacking very seriously and how theyre prepared for it. Theres the video of it on the screen. It doesnt seem that, you know, it has convinced people that the president himself buys into that message. Yes, it is a strange thing. Because youre essentially seeing the institutions move right around the president. Say this is what were going to do to protect the United States. When its not coordinated, you dont have that unity of effort. It doesnt sound a message to say hey, you need to knock this off. Not all hacks are about Election Interference. Theres espionage. Theres putting down dissidents. Theres attacking any sort of adversary of russia. Whether it has to do with the
election at all. So this requires a task force. This requires a lot of different inputs in government that are all working together. If theyre not synchronized. If one goes off and does an offensive cyberattack, that was something new we heard, and someone else doesnt know, like the Banking Sector and dhs in terms their protections. It could be catastrophic to our country. So that synchronization, it has to be led from the top. Diplomatically for it to be taking serious, its got to be the president that leads that effort. It seems the president now is undermining that message with the doubt he continuously casts in all of this. Were staying on top of two very big stories. Involving former allies of it is preside the president. The two legal cases heat up for his former lawyer, Michael Cohen, and his former Campaign Chairman, Paul Manafort. I got it. I gotcha baby. vo its being there when youre needed most. Hes the one. vo love is knowing. It was meant to be. And love always keeps you safe. vo love is why we built a car you can trust for a long time. The allnew Subaru Impreza sedan and fivedoor. A car you can love no matter what road youre on. The Subaru Impreza. More than a car, its a subaru. Right now, get 0 Apr Financing on the 2018 Subaru Impreza. Omar, check this out. Uh, yeah, i was calling to see if you do laser hair removal. For men. Notice that my hips are off the ground. [ Engine Revving ] and then, im Gonna Pike My hips back into downward dog. [ rhythmic tapping ] hey, the rain stopped. A bad day on the road still beats a good one off it. Tell me about that dental procedure again
i can still taste it in my mouth progressive helps keep you out there. The doctor just for a shot. With Neulasta Onpro patients get their day back. To be with family, or just to sleep in. Strong chemo can put you at risk of serious infection. In a key study neulasta reduced the risk of infection from 17 to 1 , a 94 decrease. Neulasta onpro is designed to deliver neulasta the day after chemo and is used by most patients today. Neulasta is for certain Cancer Patients receiving strong chemotherapy. Do not take neulasta if youre allergic to it or Neupogen Filgrastim . An incomplete dose could increase infection risk. Ruptured spleen, sometimes fatal as well as serious lung problems, allergic reactions, Kidney Injuries and Capillary Leak Syndrome have occurred. Report abdominal or shoulder tip pain, Trouble Breathing or allergic reactions to your doctor right away. In patients with sickle cell disorders, serious, sometimes fatal crises can occur. The most common side effect is bone and muscle ache. Ask your doctor about Neulasta Onpro. Pay no more than 5 per dose with copay card. Ask your doctor about Neulasta Onpro. Applebees to go. Order online and get 5 off 25. Now thats eatin good in the neighborhood. Welcome back. Live pictures. Thats the federal courthouse in alex be dr alexandria, virginia. The judge told them earlier today to keep working after they had a question on 1 of the 18 counts against him. Thats just one of the three Breaking News stories were following for you this hour that could impact the trump presidency. The others, the legal case against Michael Cohen, President Trumps former personal attorney. Sources there tell nbc news that cohen is in talks with prosecutors and prosecutors for Robert Mueller and attorneys for
Michael Flynn have agreed to delay flynns sentencing for a second time. Washington post Political Columnist dana mi milbank. Gentlemen, great to have you with us. Dana, what might it mean for the president . Should there be a Michael Cohen plea . Does it necessary mean hes actually flipping on the president . It doesnt mean that at all. There are early indications that does not mean hes cooperating with prosecutors. On the other hand, prosecutors, including Robert Mueller, whos not prosecuting this case would have most of the information they need anyway through the tapes. I think whats really more damage to the president is just the image of all of this. You have manafort going on, you have cohen, flynn, all the others. It starts to look like the
president s former aides and advisers are forming a chain gang. The three we mentioned, his innermost circle at some point. To that point, let me ask you about the developments with the jurors today in the Paul Manafort case. It seems that the judge indicating that he would accept a verdict on the counts, not necessarily all 18 counts if they reach an agreement or consensus on a part of those. But whats the political impact. What is the political significance . If, in fact, there is a Split Jury Decision in the manafort case . Well, i think any conviction is going to be a big win for Robert Mueller. I dont think it takes much imagination to realize how stressful and how under Siege Donald Trump must be feeling today. You know, you named all of these people who have intimate knowledge of his dealings who are, you know, perhaps cooperating and also the report of don mcgahn, his own white house counsel. You know, the problem of dialing everything up to 11 all the time is that when something really huge happens, you know, perhaps
people, you know, need to step back and go, okay, now, this is really a bombshell. And, you know, significant legal exposure for Paul Manafort is a definite milestone and a huge Existential Threat to donald trump. Break that down for us. Why do you see it as an Existential Threat. Since you brought up the issue of the president stressed, what is the likelihood . What is the first tweet going to look like . Well, they wont were going to have many, many tweets. I think weve seen it. When the president is stressed, we have tweet storms that are epic. You can expect that. Yes, exactly. The fact that Michael Cohen i mean, just try to imagine if someone would have told you that Michael Cohen was going to be where he is today and possibly flipping on the president of the United States. It was inconceivable. But Paul Manafort is also one of these people that has the crown
jewels. And, you know, people are saying well Paul Manafort is going to wait for the pardon. Well, if, in fact, he faces, you know, a long prison sentence, its amazing how that tends to focus the mind. And so once again donald trump has to, you know, ask what does bob mueller know . How deep does it go . And that answer cannot be reassuring to him. To that point, which case from the ones youre watching, the Paul Manafort case, the possible deal with Michael Cohen, which one of those presents the greatest possible threat to President Trump . I think its less that one is greater than the other. Its that all of these are building up in this sort of crescendo effect. I mean, even if manafort got off completely, in three weeks from now, we do this all over again. In another case. In another court here in d. C. Where theres even a stronger case against him. It would mean he succeeded in pinning everything on rick gates. His lieutenant, another Trump Campaign aide, who has already pleaded guilty here. I dont think any one of these is suddenly like breaks everything open. It seems to be just a building collection, all moving towards that eventual report that mueller will give us. Ill give you a chance to weigh in on that. The two cases were seeing here. If theyre both the same, in what ways are they more significant or different than each other . Im tempted to say that Michael Cohen, you know, poses more damage, but i agree with dana on all of this. It it is that accumulation. That accumulated weight of sleaze and corruption. You begin to get a pattern of the people that he surrounded himself with and this constant drum beat. Theres no way hes going to be able to shake this for the rest of his presidency. I do think, you know, who knows
what the straw that will break the camels back will be but the camel is getting weighed down. No doubt about it. Significant developments today. Great to have your insights as always. Will he or wont he. That is the question. Rudy giuliani sits down with nbc news About Whether Trump will Sit Down With Mueller. This is not a bed. Its a revolution in sleep. The new sleep number 360 smart bed is on sale now, from 899, during sleep numbers biggest sale of the year. It senses your movement, and automatically adjusts to keep you both comfortable. It even helps with this. So you wake up ready to put your pedal to the metal. And now, all beds are on sale. Save 50 on the new sleep number 360 limited Edition Smart bed. Plus, 24month financing and free home delivery. Ends saturday. Sleep number. Proven, quality sleep. Will he or wont he . Today the president s lawyer and pr man, Rudy Giuliani, told nbc that a sitdown interview between President Trump and Robert Mueller looks unlikely. Giuliani said, quote, it does not look good but its not finally decided. This after the president told reuters that hes concerned that sitting down with mueller could be a perjury trap. Doug burns is a former federal prosecutor and back with us here on set. Shannon pettypiece is a White House Reporter with bloomberg news. Shannon, let me begin with you. Really this isnt something particularly new. Weve heard giuliani say this many times before, but now the president is talking about a perjury trap even though hes consistently said that he would be willing to Sit Down With Mueller to clear the air so to speak. Whats changed in the president s position . The gamesmanship about this
interview has been going on back and forth since really the end of last year, this negotiation back and forth about will he, wont he, what questions he will answer. I do agree that it seems like his legal team has put in close to their best and final offer on this interview and they want to get it done before Early September so the president Isnt Testifying right before the midterm elections because they understand politically how that could look. But they submitted the legal team submitted their offer about two weeks ago now. They have not heard back from muellers office. So i do think that this issue is finally coming to a head one way or another. Theres only so much back and forth there can be. The big concern out there right now as giuliani and trump articulated is this fear that they will give a version of events around the firing of flynn that differs from the one comey gave. The president is insisted still that he did not ask comey to go easy on flynn or let flynn go
and that mueller could decide to side with comey and take his word and contemporaneous notes and charge the president with lying to investigators if he believes comeys word over the president. Thats their fear right now. And thats certainly one that a lot of people pointed out, doug. But the other headline that came out yesterday with reuters which a lot of people were scratching their head, weve heard lawmakers comment about that, that the president cannot do this. But yesterday the president said he has the power to intervene in the russia probe. In fact, his quotes were i can go in and i can do whatever. I can run it if i want but i decided to stay out. Im totally allowed to be involved if i wanted to be. So far i havent chosen to be involved. So legally speaking, politically speaking, lets start with legally first, is he right . Its directly analogous to the discussion you may remember about can he pardon himself. That happens to be an open question. On this one, yes, technically but its all a matter of semantics. In other words, can he run the
investigation, no. It means somebody else in lieu of rosenstein and mueller would do it. He cant investigate himself personally. You follow me . Yeah. By the way, maybe above my pay grade but politically thats like suicide. Could he call Rod Rosenstein and mueller into his office and say give me an update on this investigation. He could. They would be compelled to say whether or not theyre investigating. They could say there are certain details, mr. President , we cant give you. But he is the titular head over the justice department. Again, when it involves you and im somewhat reluctant to use watergate analogies but ill use one. If the investigation involves his conduct, hes much better served obviously not getting overly involved in it for sure. Shannon, let me ask you what you make of the Security Clearance fight that is playing out. You had people like Rudy Giuliani talking about john
brennans possibly suing the white house. Goading the former cia director and saying bring it on. Is this an attempt by the white house to distract from bigger issues with the whole Security Clearance debate around john brennan . It certainly doesnt seem to be an issue theyre backing down on and the president has made this callous that john brennan is a good enemy. The president likes an enemy. He feels he is strongest when he has a strong opponent, someone to punch back against. He has chosen to make brennan this sort of face of the socalled deep state. Of course for Democrats Brennan becomes the face of the socalled resistance. So its one of these classic, i think, trump feuds that he has waged in the past and found them successful. So i think well continue seeing this and the white house really shows no signs on backing down about any of the Security Clearances. We even saw the one bruce orr brought up. So i would expect to see more names mentioned and any other
actions they can come up with to take against people who they feel speak out against them. Were hearing a lot of kr critics saying the president is using it as a weapon of those who speak out against him. Thanks for being here. Were keeping an eye on that Virginia Courthouse where jurors are working on a verdict on the Paul Manafort trial. Updates as we have them. Stay with us. Its Pretty Amazing out there. The world is full of more possibilities than ever before. And American Express has your back every step of the way whether its the comfort of knowing
help is just a call away with global assist. Or getting financing to fund your business. No one has your back like American Express. So where ever you go. Were right there with you. The powerful backing of American Express. Dont do business without it. Dont live life without it. It was always our singular focus, a distinct determination. To do whatever it takes, use every possible resource. To fight cancer. And never lose sight of the patients were fighting for. Our Cancer Treatment specialists share the same vision. Experts from all over the world, working closely together to deliver truly personalized cancer care. Specialists focused on treating cancer. Using advanced technologies. And more precise treatments than before. Working as hard as we can doing all that we can for everyone who walks through our doors. This is Cancer Treatment centers of america. And these are the specialists were proud to call our own. Treating cancer isnt one thing we do. Its the only thing we do. Expert medicine works here. Learn more at cancercenter. Com Cancer Treatment centers of america. Appointments available now