Democrat from illinois suggesting that this would be some sort of bipartisan approach. The question is, will this be something that donald trump will sign on to . Will this be something that the president can get behind . If he can show his base of supporters to show look, i didnt cave, we got some semblance of this campaign promise. We got something at the border that we can call a wall and the democrats, what they got what they wanted, this daca fix and the government would then reopen. We dont know if were at that point in part and because we havent heard from the president himself apart from a series of tweets. Weve not heard directly from the president to say to hear from him directly about what he will find acceptable to reopen the government. So jeff, put this in context for us a little bit. Why do you think the senator was striking such an optimistic note . He was saying there was blame to be shared by both sides, and you know better than i do, but from listening to his comments, he sounded more optimistic than what weve been hearing from both sides where there has been little to show progress. Of course. Lindsey graham is closer to any negotiation than any of us in the press are. To be clear, there is no mechanism at this point to reopen the government at least before january 3rd when democrats or members of Congress Come back and democrats take control of the Lower Chamber of congress. That is why youve heard so many people say that this shutdown will go at least far into the new year, not just because of the calendar and the timeline, but also because there are so few incentives for both sides to negotiate. Of course, winning funding for this wall is as important to donald trump as blocking it is to democrats. Its not just about the wall or this barrier, whether its metal or concrete or what have you. Its that democrats view this border wall, this Campaign Pledge of Donald Trumps to be the physical representation of his antiimmigrant xenophobic campaign pitch. They also dont want to deliver him a political win as democrats are set to announce for their 2020 bids in just a few weeks from now. Is it correct to assume that senator Lindsey Graham in saying that there is a window of opportunity here or suggesting that there is a window of opportunity with dealing with other parts of immigration as you mentioned daca and what have you, daca, extending that, is that trying to widen the discussion so it is more than simply a wall and does doing so make it more difficult to try to get a deal before january 3rd . Its a great point. Weve seen the sort of semantic game take place over the past week where youve had the president and trump aides in the white house sort of negotiate down the wall. So were not talking about a concrete wall anymore. Now were talking about perhaps a series of steel slats as the president likes to say. And then if you add into it the talk over daca, then yes, you are muddying the waters a certain degree, but youre also adding Different Things that different lawmakers could latch on to to find cover. This is all about giving both sides enough ways to save face so that the democrats can come on board and so that the republicans, namely donald trump, can come on board and get this government reopened without either side having to say that they caved. So whether you add more money or take away money or whether you add daca or take it away, what the senator was trying to do was while he was also advocating for legislation that hes been pushing for years, he was also trying to find a way to get both sides to negotiate at the table literally and figuratively. Last question for you and then im going to ask you to stick around because well talk a lot about syria and what the senator had to say about his conversation with the president , but let me get this reaction from you, if i may, which senator Lindsey Graham saying the president seemed to be in a good mood. You spend more time at the white house. Is that an accurate cent snesen . Do you feel based on what the president is tweeting and what the senator is saying, do those two matchup . Yes, sure. Ive talked to people close to the president as can anyones mood shift, so too does his. Often times when you see the tweets, hes reacting to things hes watching on cable news. That sometimes colors what you see on the president s twitter feed. I have no reason to say that what Lindsey Graham is saying, his characterization of the move is anything other than what the senator said it is. Jeff bennett at the white house. Stick around. Im going to come right back to you. I want to crossover to capitol hill and see how all of this is likely to play out on capitol hill. Lets start with what senator Lindsey Graham was actually doing at the white house. Do you feel from your sources frrks yo, from your contact, or was this one senator having lunch with the president on his own not speaking on behalf of anyone . You know, that is such a great question, ayman. I was thinking about it as i was watching that performance in the driveway. Ive been watching Lindsey Graham and listening to Lindsey Graham and talking to Lindsey Graham since the late 90s and the clinton itmpeachment. Lindsey graham is somebody who goes out on a limb all the time. His voice is not one that necessarily reflects leadership. It usually doesnt reflect that of leadership, but hes an individual with an innate sense of politics and understanding of what needs to be said at the right time sometimes. Having said that, he does go out on that limb a lot and finds himself out there alone. And so Lindsey Graham, again, hes been talking about this for a while now. He talked about it a little bit over the weekend. Hinted at this possible deal. Daca for a wall. The first thing we have to get clear is nothing is going to happen before thursday. This doesnt change anything. The house and the senate are still gone. Theyre not going to be back before then. Nancy pelosi is not going to be making any kind of deal. Shes not going to be entering into any negotiations before she has her fingers on the levers of power. Secondly, this debate as jeff was saying, its not about sweet reason. This is politics. Politics is about abstracts and symbols and theres perhaps no other bigger more literal symbol in politics right now than that wall that the president wants to build. And therefore, it has become something of a intractable sort of issue where there is no middle ground, whether it be a concrete wall, whether it be slats, whether it be split rail or chain link or as nancy pelosi sarcastically put it, a beaded curtain. Both sides are dug in now. Where democrats had in the past been willing to talk about codifying daca, whether it be through tps or the bring act, that doesnt seem to be something theyre willing to compromise on. Number one, because this has become such a visceral issue for the base. Number two, perhaps most importantly, and this is true of republicans as well, the president may Say Something one day and then completely reverse himself the next day. Hes very impetuous. Hes prone to, as weve seen time and time gaernagain, being influenced by the last person, and perhaps theres no greater evidence than the situation that brought us to where we are tad. That day when paul ryan and kevin mccarthy, Republican Leaders of the house, went to the oval office, they thought had had an arkthe conservative leaders talked president into their position and we had a shutdown. Mike giving us the unfiltered reality from capitol hill. Let me give you a quick thought about on what the senator had to say. The senator who has been an outspoken critic of the president s decision have to say that assured him about the policy . To give folks the context, the president called for withdrawal of all american troops in syria. That is something Lindsey Graham would lead to the death of kurdish people. It would be a stain on american honor. He said it would be a disaster. It would be a mistake to outsource or national curious to a foreign power. As the u. S. Leads, you have other countries stepping in to fill that void. Today Lindsey Graham when asked about it said the president said some things i didnt know that make me feel a lot better about where were headed in syria. So we dont know exactly what that means. That was the quote that he gave us. At least Lindsey Graham left this meeting he says feeling a bit better about the president s position on the specific issue. Jeff bennett live at the white house and mike live on capitol hill. I want to bring in my panel. Lynn sweet, politics reporter. Also betsy woodruff. Atima and victoria. Great to have all of you with us. Amazing lineup. Lets lfb isten to more of what Lindsey Graham had to say and then ill get your reactions to it. When i mentioned today is an outline of a potential breakthrough would be 5 billion for a wall Border Security, the bridge act and tps reform. I think thats in the realm of possibility. The president didnt commit, but i think hes openminded. I know theres some democrats out there who would be willing to provide money for wall Border Security if we can deal with the daca population and hop fully get some serious discussion started as soon as next week. Let me begin with your reaction to this vague shape of a deal. The senator seems to suggest there are democrats willing to accept this. We heard from our correspondent saying basically senator Lindsey Graham sent speaking on behalf of any of the leadership on both sides of the political aisle. What do you make of his statement and this possible deal . My two big takeaways are the number of slashes. Border secure, wall, fence, who knows what. He is trying to walk back that stronghold on its going to be a big beautiful wall in order to give some room to maneuver, some room for negotiation between republicans and democrats. That was my first takeaway. The second was the piecemeal approach. Unlike where we were this time last year in talking about Immigration Reform, 25 billion, merit based immigration and all of these things going on, were talking about much smaller pieces. Maybe 5 billion for Border Security and the bridge acted plus tps. Much smaller. The think the days of comp hensive immigration are done. Its so complicated, so emotionally charged were going to have to take it bit by bit. Even then its going to take a lot of hard work in bringing the different factions of both parties together, let alone just republicans and democrats. We always make this point that its always the last person in the room that has the president s ear that could possibly sway him. How confident can democrats be at this moment that what Lindsey Graham just floated as a possible idea is something that the president is really committed to, that they could maybe start positioning themselves to counter what is out there . The answer to your question is everything is fluid with President Trump. There is no reason to believe that whatever senator graham said trump was thinking about is what he will agree to. There have been discussions even in the Trump White House where senator graham knows about this, senator durbin, who mike talked about, who was deeply involved in immigration for years go out thinking they have an understanding and it evaporates. The contours are different because you will have a democratic house. Dont underestimate what that will do. Now, this will end. The elements that weve been talking about are the elements that have always been there in talking about Border Security funding and finding some way to give Legal Protections to dreamers. Democrats have never been against more Border Security funds for projects that make sense, maybe barriers in some places in the border. Go back to the deal that had been almost made back in the day of ted kennedy and mccain. Yes, the elements are there. Yes, the House Democrats and republican and the Senate Leaders will Start Talking next week when theyre back. The answer to this will be when President Trump decides to declare victory, which he could do since he can, and does perceive the reality in the way he wants. Just give him something to say he won and this will be over. The interesting thing here is that Lindsey Graham is there to try to broker a deal of sorts or at least move the needle forward. Hes taken shots at nancy pelosi and im curious to get your thoughts. Listen to this and ill get your reaction to it. Pretty hard to get here from hawaii. But the phones do work. All i can say is that the democrats have said theyre not going to give him a dime for a border wall. The house will change next week. Theyre going to send over a bill from the house. They wont have any money from a physical barrier, wall, fence, slats, and thats not going to fly. So how likely is it that nancy pelosi and the democrats could be possibly open to a deal in the way that has been shaped by senator graham right now . Well, i think earlier to your point and lynns point, its fluid. Steven miller could get in his ear tomorrow and he would totally change his opinion and go back to i want my wall, its all i want. So this could all be all could change by tonight or tomorrow morning when he tweets. But could the position maybe i should clarify. Could the position itself, forget goerkting wi forget negotiating with the president , but could the position of the be something the democrats and nancy pelosi agree to . Yeah. The democrats have long since maintained that Border Security is absolutely 100 something to discuss and is on the table even before the 1. 6 billion in additional Border Security elements. Not a wall. That is not something that leader soon to be Speaker Pelosi is going to be back on. Not just the politics, but any gopwith any sense knows that a wall is not going to stop individuals and families coming to the border asking for asylum and for the ability to come in the country. So yeah, do i think its a conversation around increasing funding for Border Security . They said in that same conversation in the white house that made all the headlines that Lindsey Graham saw himself, that they will provide additional funding for Border Security, but a wall is not on the table. So we know that the president , you know, takes very seriously what conservative radio and talk show host discuss. He also lfbs istens to his base. Is senator Lindsey Graham is this something the president is going to wait to hear from . Its a little a musing to me that Lindsey Graham is the messenger from the white house because the talk radio despises Lindsey Graham. Hes just seen as one of the villains. In 2013 when there were negotiations under way for Immigration Reform, graham was one of the gang of eight that resulted in galvanizing the conservative movement to stop Immigration Reform from happening. Hes always sort of at the vanguard of trying to garner republican support for legislation that would provide legal status to undoumcumented immigrants, the kind of thing that the Steve Bannons and ann coulters and breitbarts totally despise. I dont understand why hes the guy standing in front of the white house trying to make a deal. What do you make of Lindsey Graham as somebody who was so close to john mccain and who was known to be very critical of the president , they didnt get along on a lot of issues, strong rivals, and now he has become one of the strongest allies of this president , as you said, out there selling immigration to the public. Senator graham is very politically savvy. South carolina of course is a deep red state. Over the course of his nitime i washington, he in limited ways fines way to be all things to all men. He was one of the people who made the most noise about the benghazi attack. At the same time, this is the guy saying that Climate Change is real and Congress Needs to do something about it. This is a guy who says we need to provide legal stat us to daca recipients. Now hes always gone after the president on the question of how will the administration respond to the killing of jamal khashoggi. But at the same time, hell sort of vacillate. Its really interesting. It comes from a place of keen political instincts thats made him both really close to the president but also comfortable going after him. So it puts him in an unusual situation, but i dont know that it means hes going to be good at making a deal. Always appreciate your insights. Thank you as well. We appreciate p. Coming up, Lindsey Graham commenting on President Trumps plan for syria and how the u. S. Needs to make sure iran isnt the big winner. The wonderful thing about polident is the fact that its very, very tough on bacteria, yet its very gentle on the denture itself. Polident consists of 4 powerful ingredients that Work Together to deep clean your denture in hard to reach places. That Work Together and the army taught me a lot about commitment. Which i apply to my life and my work. At comcast were commited to delivering the best experience possible, by being on time everytime. And if we are ever late, well give you a automatic twenty dollar credit. My name is antonio and im a technician at comcast. Were working to make things simple, easy and awesome. Hes worried about iranian influence and the potential dangers to isreal from having a super highway from beirut to tehran in terms of delivering weapons into lebanon. And he will be talking to turkey about making sure we dont have a war between the turks and our allies the kurds. So breaking news. That was senator Lindsey Graham discussing the substance of his lunch meeting at the white house with President Trump and according to graham, one of the president s chief concerns is you heard there is irans influence in the region. Potential threat to isreal. Lets bring in jeanine, middle east editor and human rights activist. Shes also author of the morning they came for us. Great to have you here. Thank you so much for joining us. Lets start with what senator Lindsey Graham had to say about the decision of the u. S. To withdraw from syria but also saying the president is very concerned there isnt a super highway that goes from beirut to tehran. Give us a sense of if the senators assessment is accurate and is that likely to happen with the fu. S. Withdraw. Absolutely. Were leaving doors open for both russia and iran, that this will leave a vacuum for iranian militias, for more russian control. But also i think the most important thing for me, what graham said there, was about the kurds. The kurds have been our allies. Very faithful allies. Theyve done everything american generals have said. Theyve been superb fighters on the ground. And to abandon them now, to the turks who basically see the ypg, who are the kurds fighting inside syria, to the kurturks w have vowed that will overrun them, this is really kind of the repercussions on a grand scale of trumps syria withdrawal. There was a line in a recent New York Times article about the kurds that i thought was striking. It shows the flaw in the entire american approach which said that an american ally, the kurds, are asking the enemy of the United States, this assad regime, to protect them from turkey, which is another american ally. Very convoluted. I think a lot of people are watching this. The region is a very convoluted region. Its a very difficult place to comprehend. The kurds have been betrayed since the empire broke up. Since the end of world war i. The first gulf war. Absolutely by the u. S. In the first gulf war. They have basically aligned themselves faithfully believing that at one point they will get their own state, which is what they want. They havent had that. But in this circumstance, since 2014, theyve basically been battling isis. Theyve taken great casualties and they did it in good faith. That at the end they would be in some way either rewarded with help for their own referendum which the u. S. Basically did not support on that. But more importantly now the turks, were leaving them completely vulnerable to the turks. More importantly to me, this sends a really strong message to the rest of the world that we are not viable military partners. That we will go into places that need protection, that need help, like syria, like yemen, ukraine, nigeria, anyplace where we are going to need support battling global terrorism. We will then use local partners and then abandon them. For me the Long Term Strategy here is absolutely wrong. Then theres the other issue. Were dealing the door open for russia and iran to take up the vacuum that is now syria. So you probably also are aware there have been overtures and theyll be opening embassies there. This is a terrible thing. And some say its because the u u. S. Is withdrawing from syria. The russians are responsible for many things including the destruction of aleppo, targeting hospitals, schools, women, charchar children, but assad is running the torture centers. Them opening their embassy is sning a message fine, we recognize you. That will open the doors for other countries in the region to bring their embassies back. This is saying assad, youve won the war when which basically he has which hes going to share his country with russia and iran, but what youve done in the past youre going to get away with impunity. He has had horrific human rights violations. This is a terrible thing in my view, the uae basically going and opening their embassy. I guess in a nutshell, the Syrian Government has won the war. I think we can safely say assad has won the war. What happens next is extremely important. The rebuilding of the country and also transitional justice. People who committed these horrific acts of killing civilians, are they going to be tried . Are the victims ever going to get justice . That is to me the most important thing. And of course what happens to the refugees as well. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Meanwhile, Outgoing White House chief of staff john kelly offered comments on the president s plan to withdraw troops abroad. The president was inclined to withdraw u. S. Forces from afghanistan. However, it was only after kellys departure from the white house was confirmed earlier this month that the president announced the pullout of u. S. Troops from syria, all of them and about half of those in afghanistan while friday a spokesman for the National Security council denied the president has made a determination to draw down u. S. Military presence in afghanistan, a move widely reported to be under his consideration. The Los Angeles Times also reports that during his tenure in the white house, kelly stepped in to persuade the president not to pull u. S. Troops out of south korea or to withdraw from nato. This is according to supporters of kelly. Joining meal now, phillippe, good to talk to you again, lets talk about this interview by the outgoing chief of staff. A lot of things to breakdown. How telling are the words of general kelly in this interview . Let me read this paragraph. When it comes to the efficacy of President Trumps Foreign Policy decision making, essentially he says its not about what he did. Its about what he wasnt able to get him to do. Well, thats pretty convenient because we dont know what those are. If donald trump wants to write a memoir where he says he hit the Nuclear Button and john kelly rescinded the order, then i will take back everything im about to say, but these pieces and books people are doing as some kind of reputational cleanse, they shouldnt move us. We know what donald trump has done. That is all that matters. The people around him are part of that. And they are not making things better. I know we all want to believe that they are. But they are not. Some of the more controversial immigration policies happened while john kelly was there. Hes also made a lot of acsi accusations against members of congress that were not correct. Some have accused him of being racist in his own right. The Los Angeles Times also reports kelly had to stop trump from pulling troops out of south korea and withdrawing from nato. Who is left to prevent the president from following these kind of impulses if we are to assume what john kelly said he did is in fact true . I understand the point of your question, but i would say theres no one been there to stop him. Yes, those things didnt happen, but part of me thinks donald trump is sitting around blurting thing out in part maybe just to poke his advisers to see what they say. Who knows who he talks out of the office to get his decisions. Maybe its sean hannity talked him out of it. I really dont know. But i just dont think its happening. I think were giving credit to people. Look, i understand it with jim mattis. I understand it with john kelly. Theyve shown us that they have become part of the problem. Jim mattis might have been the least part of the problem, but that doesnt mean he was part of the problem. That same goes for john kelly. Let me play you a sound bite from another retired general. This is a four star Stanley Mccrystal. He commented on the importance of the letter explaining his resignation since you brought that up. I personally think it was valuable. I think maybe it causes the American People to take pause and say wait a minute, if we have someone who is as selfless as committed as jim mattis resigns his position walking away from all the responsibility he feels for every Service Member in our forces and he does so in a public way like that, we ought to stop and say okay, why did he do it . We ought to ask what kind of km commander in chief he had that jim mattis, the good marine, felt he had to walk away . And the other thing is that Stanley Mccrystal also said that he believes the president is immoral. Im curious to get your thoughts on general mccrystals comments. I fully agree with him although i dont think that matters. I made the mistake of reading twitter before i came on and, you know, the trump forces have already started with the bashing sam mccrystal and i think Everyone Needs to remember which they will conveniently forget is that sam mccrystal was head of our forces in afghanistan and barack obama relieved him of command. To shorthand it, barack obama fired him. So the notion that mcdonaldcrys some kind of secret democrat is absurd. Bill mcraven oversaw the operation that killed bin laden. How do you have anything to say that he is not a patriot . But you know what . 30 of america is going after him because, god forbid, these people voice constructive criticism. Were going to have to leave it at that. Always a pleasure to talk to you. You too. President trumps lawyer has a message february Robert Mueller. My ultimatum is put up or shut up, bob. Do you have anything that shows the president of the United States was in a conspiracy to hack the dnc with russia . Of course you dont. If you do, put out a report or give it to the Justice Department and make them review it, make sure its not classified. Were ready to rebut it. Coming up next, we are taking an in depth look at exactly what mueller has and what he still needs to prove a case for collusion and obstruction of justice. Stay with us. Justice. Stay with us our mission is to make offshore wind one of the principal new sources of energy. Not every bank is willing to get involved in a firstofitskind project. Citi saw the promise of clean energy. Were polluting the air less. Businesses and homes can rely on a steady source of power. This will be the first of many offshore wind farms in the u. S. Uh uh i deliverberty the news around here. Sources say Liberty Mutual customizes your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. Over to you, logo. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. Liberty. So we improved everything. We used 50 fewer ingredients added one handed pumps and beat the top Safety Standards the new johnsons® choose gentle special Counsel Robert Mueller has a busy 2019 in front of him. We start with the month of january. January 7th Paul Manafort has to decide whether to fight muellers assessment that he broke his plea agreement or not. Michael cohen then goes up to prison on march 6th. A week later status report is due on Michael Flynns cooperation with prosecutors. Those are just the dates we know about. The big question mark, of course, is when mueller might complete his report and whether he has the goods when it comes to President Trump. So we wanted to take an in depth look at two of the key components of the case that it is believed mueller is trying to build. We want to break down what we know already from the Public Record that would bolster a case for collusion. What we still need to answer this. What will determine whether that case can be made or not . And we also want to look at the obstruction case. What do we know about that as well . For that lets bring in our allstar panel. Glen kershner, joyce vance, msnbc and former u. S. Attorney and frank, msnbc National Security analyst and former assistant director for Counter Intelligence at the fbi. He is also the chief operating officer for ets risk management. If there ever avs an allstar panel, this is it. Joyce, let me begin with you if i may. Lets start with some of the things we do know from the indictments of russian nationals. We do know that rugs tampered with the election to help donald trump from various confessions. We know that Trump Campaign officials like Michael Flynn, george papadopoulos, Paul Manafort, they all had contacts with russians during the campaign. We also know that from Michael Cohens plea deal, we know that trump misled the public about his attempts to get a trump tower moscow deal during the campaign. Which of these are the most important in your eyes . I think the answer is all of the above. The central question mall lerue charged with answering and anyone on the campaign or even the president himself was involved with russia in trying to manipulate the election, thats muellers central focus. We know hes looking at roger stone and jerome corsi. The interesting question is whether there will be additional tentacles that will connect him to russia. He minimized the role he played in his campaign. Do you think mueller has more than cohens word about the trump tower moscow deal . He has so much more. Theres no way mueller and his team would build a case on the word of one cooperating witness. The term cooperating witness, ayman, is synonymous with liar. The reason i say that is because when prosecutors bring cooperating witnesses on board, it is because they have committed crimes and generally they have lied about those crimes. So by definition, virtually every cooperating witness is a liar. Thats why corroboration is the key. When we have a cooperating witness who tells us a story, were not going to accept that story at face value. We are going to look into every single other source of information, whether its their computers, their cell phones, gps information, surveillance tapes, collateral interviews of other people that the cooperate or spoke with about these areas of interest. So mueller will not be building any kind of a charge on the word of Michael Cohen alone. So frank, unfortunately, you drew the shortened of the stick. Youll have to answer some of the questions we dont know answers to. Were going to run a list of some of the questions still out there. Did any Trump Campaign official or trump himself directly encourage or participate in the russian hacking of the dnc . Was any deal struck with russians on specific policy issues . Were there any other trump business dealing with russia that may be problematic . Out of all those questions, which of them do you think might be a critical linchpin to the investigation about collusion . Well, as george saluted to, this is about trying to figure out which piece of a jigsaw puzzle is more important than the other. The answer is theyre all very important. But lets look at what we know to talk about what we dont know. We know that in a filing regarding cohens cooperation, mueller said he provided cooperation central to the russian matter, so i think were talking about cohen providing information about the business deals going on between russia and trump, who knew what when. Now also look toward what is likely to be upcoming almost imminent indictments likely of jerome corsi and roger stone who are central figures in the issue of russias role in the hack of the dnc and the release by wikileaks of hacked emails. Thats coming soon to a theater near you. Look at this intrigue around prague and whether or not cohen was there or his cell phone was seeing other people and the cell phone was there and was that a clandestine means of communicating with russian officials . All of this is pointing to a strong potential case of collusion. I think when you take that all together, throw flynn into that mix now, because of clear, clear knowledge of russian contact and you put him right in the white house as National Security adviser, were learning that manaforts been pressured by russians to payoff an extensive amount of deep debt as chairman of the president s campaign. All of this is going to come together and paint a picture of collusion. The big question, ayman, how much did this president know about what all of his associates were doing . To that point, im not sure you heard the sound bite of rudy giuliani, but in the sound bite we played he says Robert Mueller needs to put up or shut up and essentially hes really narrowly defining what he defines as collusion, essentially saying the president or anyone in his inner circle must have directed and coordinated the russian hack of the dnc for collusion to have happened. This is not even to mention that at some point earlier giuliani has said collusion is not even a crime. That somebody within the president s orbit had to have been involved in the dnc hack by Russian Hackers . First off, i was glad to hear former u. S. Attorney giuliani commit that he believes that the Mueller Report should be released publicly. He seems to be saying that the public should have a chance to take a look at it when it comes out. I hope hell remember that when mueller is done. To your legal point, if were talking about conspiracy, its not critical that the president himself personally enter into an agreement with vladimir putin. Anyone in the campaign could have done that. The president himself could have entered that agreement without explicitly doing it. Theres a lot of different sorts of evidence available here. There are also crimes beyond conspiracy that we could be talking about. So giuliani always uses an unduly constrained definition of what criminal tity looks like. Bob mueller knows what it looks like and hell be weighing the Available Evidence and seeing who, if anyone, should be charged with crime. Lets switch to the other aspect of the investigation, the obstruction case. There are some key parts we want to address including the tru trump james comey conversation about Michael Flynn and the president putting out a misleading statement about the trump tower meeting with the russians. Which of these do you think mueller is most interested in when it comes to the obstruction question . Well, there seems to be so much obstruction that has gone on in plain sight and i think what some people sort of forget is that obstruction actually has an impact on whether you committed the underlying crime of in this case conspiracy. Because you know, you dont have to cover up something if you didnt do anything wrong in the first instance. So when the president is asking comey to layoff flynn and then firing comey, when the president is participating in drafting a false narrative about what happened at that trump tower meeting, why is he taking all of those obstructive acts . Because hes covering up wrongdoing. There is a powerful synergy between obstruction, which is a fancy way of saying covering up your crimes, and the crimes themselves. So the fact that there is obstruction in plain sight breathes life into the argument that there was conspiracy in the first place. Frank, let me pick up on that point glen brought up which is when it came to the firing of comey and comey claiming that trump asked him if he could, quote, let the flynn thing go, is that clear enough to make an obstruction case, or did the president have to be more explicit in what he told jim comey to do . So we all know that obstruction is about establishing the intent of the person whos allegedly obstructing. Do you that through a totality of circumstances. What i think mueller is going to do is hes going to look at the comey firing, but hes going to look at it in concert with all the other evidence of attempts to obstruct. Prepping witness statements which he may have done for cohen. Manafort communicating secretly back to the white house about whats going on in talks with mueller. All of that is going to be, as glen said, the kind of fake narrative about the trump tower meeting. You put that all together and i think theres a very strong case of an intent to obstruct. Dont forget all the people who paraded through muellers office from don mcgahn to others, all who provided insight into the president s mindset when he did each and every one of these acts, and i think thats going to equal obstruction. Frank, joyce, glen, thank you very much. Happy new year to all of you. Coming up, senator Lindsey Graham commenting on the shutdown just a short while ago and he sounds optimistic that President Trump and congress will be able to get a bill done and reopen the government. Possibly next week. With your doctor about how youre feeling. Because how youre doing emotionally, affects your physical health and vice versa mr. Danson, would you mind . I love doing this thanks, but i just need you to fill out the medical history. Thats embarrassing go in for your annual checkup, and check in physically and emotionally cigna. Together all the way. Do i have to do the age part . Okay youre in the business of helping people. Were in the business of helping you. Business loans for eligible card members up to fifty thousand dollars, decided in as little as 60 seconds. The powerful backing of american express. Dont do business without it. All i can tell you is that democrats have voted for 700 miles of the secure fence act that had doublelayered fencing. Call that whatever youd like. In the bill we had 42 billion for Border Security, including 9 billion for physical barriers. The wall has become a metaphor for Border Security, and what were talking about is a physical barrier where it makes sense. That was senator Lindsey Graham speaking at the white house after his lunch with President Trump this afternoon. Returning is congressional reporter mike beserra. As you saw there, senator graham sounding hopeful that both sides can begin discussions to reopen the government as soon as next week, but realistically speaking, given the fact youve been on capitol hill with nothing to show for any progress, will democrats and congressional leaders agree to this . Right. Its been 48 hours of suite on wee here. Absolutely nothing happening, amon. Its President Trumps stream of tweets being watched, so negotiation are sort of at a stand still. Everything in a Holding Pattern until that day on thursday, the constitutionally mandated day, january 3rd, when the new congress convenes and nancy pelosi leads democrats into the majority of the house. They will in sort order be able to pass a bill that will look forward to reopening the government under existing funding levels most likely, even for a stopgap, maybe eightweek period of time and sending it to the senate, then its an open question what happens. Mitch mcconnell and republican senators are loathe to vote for anything on the floor that the president is not going to endorse. This could last a while. Having said that, Lindsey Graham making his best effort to open the door a crack, provide negotiators with a toehold to crime towards an ultimate agreement, whether that has to do with daca, codifying daca ended by President Trump in exchange for some amount of wall funding, that could possibly be the basis of a negotiation. My sense is, amon, this is going to go on for no longer before it comes clear what the politics are and how antsy members of congress get. Let me ask you this, you and i know d. C. Pretty well. Thats rare that you have a lot of senators sticking around. The president wasnt even supposed to be there. Do we know what led to this lunch taking place . Do we think that senator Lindsey Graham is trying to, you know, back channel this in a way for both sides to save face . I havent spoken with senator graham over the last couple days. My suspicion is Lindsey Graham is trying to take an initiative and be a bridge builder. Hes been on record for years trying to come to a compromise on immigration legislation. We have to point out its gone virtually nowhere. So this could be another effort in that direction. I think Lindsey Graham is someone who goes out on a limb. He definitely marches to the beat of his own drummer, he doesnt necessarily reflect the thinking of leadership or the consensus in the rank and file. However, he does have a sharp sense of politics and whats possible. I wouldnt put that much stock in what hes proposing and what he said at the end of that meeting until thursday, until people start to come together and talk about this stuff face to face, amon. I dont think any of the other congressional leaders stuck around town, so it gives you a way of thinking. Nbc news congressional reporter mike have a ker ra, that will do it for this week. Join me back here next sunday to break down the major stories of the week. You can reach out to me on social media. Up next, reverend al sharpton and politicsnation. One hour pickup order . Got it. Ran out of ink and i have a big meeting today and 2 boxes of twizzlers. Yeah, uh. For the team. The team . Gooo team. Know whats better than overnight shipping . Free one hour pickup when you order online. Or on our app. At Office Depot Officemax theres brushing. And theres oralb power brushing. Oralb just cleans better. Even my hygienist said going electric could lead to way cleaner teeth. And unlike sonicare, oralb is the First Electric toothbrush brand accepted by the ada. Oralb. Brush like a pro. From capital one. Nd i switched to the spark cash card i earn unlimited 2 cash back on everything i buy. And last year, i earned 36,000 in cash back. Which i used to offer Health Insurance to my employees. Whats in your wallet . Its the 8th annual revy awards from rockefeller center, heres your host, al sharpton. Good evening, and welcome to our 8th annual revvie awards. Its where we celebrate the best and worst in 2018 and give awards to those who deserve it. Lets bring in our distinguished panel of judges, my colleague and