Transcripts For MSNBCW MSNBC Live With Ali Velshi 20191025

And we needed to make sure that he went out with the respect and the dignity that he deserved. This was a man of the utmost integrity. Do you hear me . He had integrity. And he cared about our democracy. On this day, as the country honored one of its fiercest champions of civil rights, the president left washington where the house is now mosquing closer to taking the impeachment inquiry public. Trump traveled to South Carolina to visit a historically black college or university for the first time in administration. Three days after describing the impeachment inquiry as a lynching. On criminal Justice Reform at Benedict College. During that address, he made sure to celebrate the bipartisan effort on the issue. After years of waiting, we assembled a Historic Coalition and it was indeed historic. We had em so liberal, you wouldnt believe it and so conservative, you wouldnt believe it. And they got together. I said how did we do that one . But it was a beautiful thing to watch. We worked across party lines very strongly. After all of the work and effort, we passed the bill and i proudly signed it into law. The most significant criminal Justice Reform in many generations. But with the administrations ongoing attacks on the impeachment inquiry pitting one party against the other, a local paper in columbia, South Carolina writes, quote President Donald Trump is trying to prove something some say. Its a great opportunity say others. And then there are those who ask whats the point of him coming to a black college in South Carolina . To answer that question, joining me from South Carolina are nbc correspondent hans nickels and msnbc correspondent tremane lee. Hans, lets start with you. Whats the point of the visit . Well, the president wants to drive his message on criminal Justice Reform. White house officials and allies the white house think that this presents an opportunity to peel off some africanamerican voters not just here in columbia, right . The president s down here in South Carolina. Hes going to win this state. But in battleground states where you have high concentration of africanamericans, so thats pennsylvania, thats michigan, thats wisconsin. And they feel, and i stress feel, they feel as though theyre cutting through the media on this. And that is their strategy. Now, the president speaking right now. He did mention lElijah Cummings. Paid his respects to his family and to the former congressman. But what strikes me so far, ali, about this speech is how traditional it is. The president s doing a lot of name checking. He seems to be sticking to the prompter. What they clearly want to do is drive a message on criminal Justice Reform and have that be very tailored to a specific community. Ali. Tremane, give us a little bit of context criminal Justice Reform and the fact that hes at an hbcu in what you earlier described to me as a rough week. Thats right. While so many folks take umbridge with the idea that trump has said time again he has support for my africanamericans. People have been turned off by that. But in reality, if theres any sliver of Common Ground between the black community and donald trump, between right and left, is this space of criminal Justice Reform. Especially, coming out of the 1990s when so many black men and women were incarcerated under a wave of mass incarceration. Throwing whole communities on to shaky ground. And now, for some of those folks under the first step back championed by donald trump and Bipartisan Group in congress, many of those folks are out now. Out early. Reunited with their families. And for those who have been pushing for reform, they say its not a partisan issue. Its about making sure that communities, families, men and women who have been done dirty by the system are made whole. I spoke with a man named lewis reid. Hes the National Director of cut 50, which is an organization thats aimed at trying to have the prison population by half. And he said reiterated that very point that its beyond that. But lets hear in his own words what he has to say. Ultimately, like my grandma used to say, people dont care how much you know until they know how much you care. This was an issue that people in washington, not politics, not politicians, not politics, but people in washington actually cared about. And its the lowest common denominator lowest common denominator that we have been able to bridge the gap as far as people have been on the right and on the left. For people like lewis reid, who said thats beyond the politics, there are also people like Alice Johnson who was actually freed after a lengthy, lengthy prison stay after kim kardashian, the wife of the rapper kanye west, lobbied on her behalf. Still, even though there is some good will, there are other folks like the state and naacp saying they were taken off guard by trumps visit. Other students i talked to earlier said they take umbridge with the fact that many students werent invited. According to a number of sources, only ten students from Benedict College where the president is speaking right now, only ten were invited. So some say its a clear curated room of his supporters without much nuance in terms of how people view the fight for reform. Thank you as always. Tremane lee at Benedict College. Hans nickels as well. Back here in washington. House impeachment investigators have subpoenaed three more officials for deposition testimony. Office of management and budget acting director russ. Office of management and budget associate director for National Security programs, michael duffy. And state Department Counselor orick. In their letters, the chairs of the three committees write your failure or refusal to appear at the deposition, including at the direction or behest of the president or the white house shall constitute evidence of obstruction of the houses impeachment inquiry. And may be used as an adverse inference against the president. Joining me now on the capitol is from the capitol is Garrett Haake. Talk to me about this. As were moving along in this inquiry, we are hearing names of people who are going to be giving depositions. Names that the public would not have heard about. Yeah. Ali, the timing of these subpoenas is interesting because two of the three of these officials were folks who the committees running the inquiry actually requested to speak to weeks ago and were blown off essentially. Both one of the omb officials and the state Department Official you just named were both requested to be here last week and just did not show. But i think we have seen a change in the momentum of this, if you will. So many of these other officials from the state department, from the department of defense, and now it appears from the National Security council even, are starting to appear despite the white houses objections under subpoenas. Be they more forcefully applied subpoenas like this with a publicly released letter or what weve been colloquially been referring to as friendly subpoenas. Essentially, providing legal cover for folks who want to show up but are worried about their job. The omb connection here is particularly interesting. This is yet a branch where weve not heard from any witnesses or had any documents turned over. At the heart of this inquiry is a follow the money investigation here. The aid to ukraine that did not show up in a timely fashion. And the office of management and budget is going to be the place with the receipts. Thats going to be the place where you ultimately find out what happened with this money, who was told what about moving it. So democrats have wanted to get these answers. And now, they appear to be taking at least slightly more forceful action to try to compel this testimony here in the next week or so. Garrett, you and i talked earlier about Lindsey Grahams resolution yesterday and that there were a number of republican senators who hadnt signed. Were now down to three i believe senators who have not signed on. Susan collins, lisa murkowski, and mitt romney i believe. Yeah, thats right. So what this means is republicans have the 50 votes they will need to get this passed. They can use mike pence to break the tie. So that resolution could be passed if indeed its brought to the floor, you know, presumably they would try to do this as early as next week. The three republican holdouts should not be all that surprising. Susan collins has been pretty resolute that shes just not going to talk about the impeachment inquiry until and unless it comes before the senate. Lisa murkowski has really held the line as one of the more independent thinking among republican senators. Shes regularly one of the last to jump on to these kind of things if she does at all. And then theres mitt romney whos been easily the most outspoken republican senator when it comes to the impeachment inquiry and what he sees as, you know, pretty obvious problems in behavior here by donald trump. But this does now have the votes to come to the floor. Whether it has any practical effect on the actual inquiry whatsoever is a whole other question. A very important point. It is largely entirely symbolic but interesting to see where people put their name. Where they sign on to. Garrett, thanks very much. Garrett haake for us on capitol hill. As always, if there are developments in the hour with the impeachment inquiry, well get garrett right back on tv. Just as the developing facts provide a clearer picture of the president s alleged impeachable misconduct, nbc news has confirmed that attorney general William Barrs probe into the origins of the russia investigation has changed from what was an administrative review into a criminal investigation. That is according to a person familiar with the review. Its not clear when the change happened but this investigation has been one that the president and his republican allies have repeatedly called for. The review is being conducted by connecticut u. S. Attorney john durham. The change reportedly means that durham now has the power to subpoena witness testimony and documents to em panimpanel a gr jury and the power to file criminal charges. We have a great attorney general. Highly prestigious man. A very honorable man. And theyve been looking at it for a long time. I leave it all up to the attorney general and i leave it all up to the people that are working with the attorney general who i dont know. But i will say this, i think youll see things that nobody wouldve believed. This was the worst hoax in the history of our country. Joining me now, democratic senator from wisconsin. Tammy baldwin. Senator, good to see you. Thank you for being with us. Lets just talk about this. This investigation into the origins of the of the russia inquiry. The president has always railed against it. He calls it a witch hunt and illegitimate and all these things. Something has happened here. I think its important for people to understand. This could happen at the behest of bill barr who seems to be okay with doing the president s bidding. Yes. Its been quite a remarkable breaking news. Look, there has to be a criminal predicate in order to open this criminal investigation. We havent heard what that is yet. But i can say large it appears to be an attempt to exonerate russia. Lets remind our viewers that it was the unanimous conclusion of our Intelligence Community, our Law Enforcement, that russia interfered with the 2016 elections. After a threeyear bipartisan inquiry and the Senate Intelligence committee, they, too, brought out a report that said russia interfered with the 2016 elections. And now, rather than having the department of justice focus on what they should be focusing on, securing our elections for 2020 and beyond, we have instead the resources of the department of justice apparently trying to discredit our Intelligence Community and Law Enforcement community. And it seems that most americans would rather they be focused on securing our elections. Now, this of course comes right in the middle of an intensified impeachment inquiry in the house. And as i was just talking to Garrett Haake about, your colleague Lindsey Grahams effort to come up with a resolution condemning the house for the work its doing in impeachment. Tell me where you things stand and where you see them going. Well, i have to say that it certainly was not lost upon me that this criminal inquiry was announced right when this drama is unfolding. And this is not an unusual tactic in this administration. That said, i think that we have seen a turn in the impeachment inquiry happening in the house in terms of people from the administration coming forward to share what they know as witnesses to various activities. Whether it be the call that the president had with the president of ukraine in which he solicited foreign assistance in the upcoming election, as well as solicited foreign assistance in this endeavor it seems to exonerate russia. That is putting his personal and political interests above the country. And it is certainly of grave concern to me that we are seeing u. S. Foreign policy abused in such a way. Its going to affect our standing in the world, frankly. Senator, i was i was in your state on monday actually having a great conversation with some of your constituents. But theres some polling that indicates that donald trump is unusually strong in wisconsin. Hes hes stronger there than he is in some places. What to what do you attribute that . Well, first of all, i would say that if you look at just a point in time, it doesnt tell the full story. The same the marquette poll, which is revered throughout the state of wisconsin, polled constituents in april and then again this past week. What weve seen is a very dramatic shift in certain certain questions and answer to certain questions. For example, whether this impeachment inquiry is merited. Thats theres a dramatic shift there in light of the phone log of the call between the president of the United States and the president of ukraine. Theyve now seen him solicit foreign assistance for interfering with our campaigns. The second, i think, issue that sort of remains fundamental and the same in wisconsin is were a divided state. Pretty evenly divided. And that to, you know, looking towards the next set of elections, winning wisconsin is about showing up, listening, and talking to the issues that concern people every day. Whether thats the availability of affordable healthcare that covers people with preexisting conditions or whether thats our manufacturing or agriculture economies as theyre impacted by the president s trade war with china. We are a state that i think ultimately are going to going to decide the election based on issues right versus wrong, not right versus left. Senator, good to talk to you as always. Thank you. And on that, the president has been wrong on so many issues that affect the people of our state. Thank you. Thank you for joining me. Good to see you as always. Senator Tammy Baldwin of wisconsin. Some of washingtons top leaders gathered in baltimore today to celebrate late congressman Elijah Cummings who died last week at the age of 68. Congressman cummings was the son of a share cropper. First elected to congress in 1996, he quickly became a moral compass for his colleagues in the house of representatives. Yesterday, he became the first africanamerican lawmaker to lie in state in the u. S. Capitol. Today, two former u. S. President s spoke at his funeral. Cummings was remembered as a fierce champion of truth, justice, and kindness. It is no coincidence, is it, that Elijah Cummings shared a name with an Old Testament prophet, whose name meant in hebrew the lord is my god. And who used the power and the wisdom that god gave him to uphold the moral law. Our elijah always made a seat at the table for others. He made a seat at the table for children who needed an education. For even new members of congress so that he could mentor them. For all who wanted to be part of the american dream. His legacy is how hard he honored his oath to protect and defend the constitution. Of the United States. I was sitting here and i was just noticing the honorable elijah e. Cummings. But Elijah Cummings was honorable before he was elected to office. Theres a difference. Theres a difference if you were honorable and treated others honorably. All right. Joining me now, jeff bennett who was at the service today. A lot of boldfaced names speaking there obviously the ones who get the coverage. But there were a lot of people from the community there. From maryland. Talk to me about what Elijah Cummings was to the people he represented. Ali, its such a great point because as you well point out, Elijah Cummings, he was lionized today as a great congressman and a great man. Not just by former president s and top politicians but by the regular people he represented. I talked to a woman here who was with her young son. Her son had fallen asleep over the course of this three or fourhour funeral and she mentioned that she was a social worker and given the kind of work that she does, she said it was important to her to have someone representing her who she felt had her back. And, you know, ive gone all over the country over the course of my reporting. You talk to people. Most people dont know who their member of congress is. But you come to this district, and people not only knew who Elijah Cummings was. They knew him personally. And so when you heard from former president bill clinton, he mentioned that Elijah Cummings came to congress in 1996. That was the same year bill clinton was reelected. A couple years later, 1998, Elijah Cummings asked bill clinton to come here to church with him at this church where cummings had worshipped for 40 years and the former president bill clinton said he had some advisors who said why would you even want to bother . But he did. He did come and his wife, cummings widow, mentioned that was one of the most that was one of the proudest moment of Elijah Cummings life and the two of them forged a real friendship. President clinton and Elijah Cummings. Former president barack obama. We heard from him in the open to the segment. Elijah cummings is one of the first people to back Barack Obamas president ial bid back in 2008 when a lot of people thought he didnt have a shot. And even though Elijah Cummings was chairman of the House Oversight committee this past year, eight years before that starting in 2011, he was the top democrat on that panel. Really defending the Obama Administration. So speaker after speaker talked not only about the policies that he cared about but really the kind of person that he was. And another quick thing. I think its important to sort of track the journey of his life because it says so much about this countrys story. Born in 1951 into the jim crow south. Son of South Carolina share croppers. His parents tried to give him and his siblings a better life. From there, elected to congress. Rose to the heights of power. Never left the Baltimore City where he grew up. And so now, you have this man who was born into the jim crow south being lionized by former president s here. In the city where he was raised. I mean, it speaks to the possibility of this country. It speaks to the opportunities that he was afforded. And the kind of opportunities that he tried to afford other people, ali. It is a remarkable story. It is interesting, jeff, that in the last, you know, couple of years, its been the funeral of statesmen that have brought normalcy back to our broadcasts and our reporting and the attention of the nation. You see bipartisanship. You see honor. It is it is it is interesting how it takes these moments for us to remember what sometimes drives people to go to the United States congress or their state legislatures or go into public service. Thank you, jeff, for your reporting. Jeff bennett for us in baltimore. After the break, were going to switch gears. Going to dig more into the impeachment inquiry on capitol hill. Plus, another headline involving Rudy Giuliani. This time, it includes some pretty unfortunate butt dials. Thats next. Some pretty unfortunate butt dials. Thats next. With esri location technology, you can see relationships. Connections. Patterns. You can see what others cant. I want you to remember two things. Were going to introduce two new things into your lexicon of the news right now. One is a name. Rich shapiro. The other one is a date. October 16th. The name and the date might become very important. Rudy giuliani. This is what its connected to. Hes making headlines because of a butt dial. I dont think ive ever said that on tv before. Trumps lawyer reportedly butt dialed an nbc News Reporter twice and left long messages. In those messages, and you have to watch this and listen to it because its kind of muffled but weve got a transcription on the screen that you have to watch while you listen. In those messages, which ill play for you in just a seconder or one of them, hes heard discussing joe biden, business in bahrain, and his need for cash. Joining me now is the reporter i told you about. Rich shapiro. Rich, going to give everybody a look at your face because its going to become really important. And now, i want to play a piece of the voicemail and i encourage you who are watching us, read along with the audio. Lets play it. Okay. Nbcs rich shapiro is with us now. Rich, you had talked to Rudy Giuliani and then you had gone to bed. What happened on october 16th . I went to sleep and then i woke up and i woke up to find a threeminute Voicemail Message sitting in my on my phone. And on that call, he was talking to unidentified people and he said some pretty interesting things. For instance, he brought up that the this other person had to get on bahrain and its clear that there was some kind of Business Opportunity hes discussing because shortly thereafter, he says the problem is we need some money. Theres a very long pause. And then he says a few hundred thousand dollars. The recording is muffled so its difficult to discern exactly what theyre talking about. But its certainly intriguing and i can tell you i did not go to sleep that night expecting to wake up in the morning with a threeminute Voicemail Message from Rudy Giuliani. Talk to me about a few words that i was able to make out in there. Lets talk about bahrain. In a part that we didnt play, he mentioned somebody named charles. He talks about fraud. Is there anything in the conversations that you had with Rudy Giuliani prior to him leaving this message, you know, accidentally calling you one would presume, that gives you any context into charles, fraud, money, bahrain . The short answer is no. I have no idea what hes talking about with charles and fraud. What i can tell you is that the conversation we had that previous day was actually about his ties to this fringe Iranian Opposition group. So it had absolutely nothing to do with what he was discussing on the call. And its clear that what he was discussing on the call had to do with business in bahrain and these other kind of unrelated issues. Did you have a chance to talk to him after this and get some clarity . I did not. No. I have tried to speak with him a couple of times over the past ten days or so. And those calls go directly to his voicemail. And i have yet to receive an intentional or an unintentional call back. Rich shapiro. Thank you for joining us. You do need to see richs story. You can read the transcript of the call and all of the context that rich provides at nbc news. Com. Thank you, sir. My pleasure. All right. Republicans in congress say they want public testimony from the whistleblower who came forward about President Trumps efforts to pressure ukraine. The lawmakers argue that the president should be able to face his accuser. In a letter to congressman adam schiff, the lawmakers write quote, we expect you to arrange for the committees to receive the testimony of the employees and all individuals he or she relied upon in formulating the august 12th complaint. Democratic sources on capitol hill tell nbc news they do not think testimony from the whistleblower is essential because the information he or she presented as been corroborated by other sources. The sources also say coming forward could affect the whistle bl blowers safety. With me now, ari melber. Host of the beat and jonathan alan. Ari melber, put your hat on. Your legal hat on for me and tell me about this. If somebody provides information that leads to an investigation in which the facts are otherwise corroborated, what does i know that its not exactly the same thing in congress. But what would the law suggest should be done . Well, the law in Congress Suggests that as long as people are blowing the whistle and theyre found credible, and we all remember that was the case here, that theyre actually protected. That is to say they get to remain anonymous. Thats a core part of these whistleblower protection laws. Republican chuck has talked about that. Now, the folks on the trump side have a point. Its not a legal point. Its more of a broader fairness point, which is if youre going to go treat the president like a potential defendant, which is what the impeachment process is in the senate if theres a trial, that there should be some due process and he should have the right to confront accusers and they shouldnt remain anonymous. Theres no law and theres certainly no part of the constitution that supports that. Its more of a broader argument if and when you get to a senate trial. As your question alludes to, ali, it all becomes pretty moot if five other people already say the same thing that the whistleblower originally said. Let me ask you, though, more broadly speaking, given that there is some path laid out for impeachment, would a president who faces impeachment benefit from due process . Is there due process in the system . Either in the house articles of impeachment or in the trial in the senate . Its a great question and and the short answer is the constitution does not state it. So unlike the criminal law context where there are rules, the federal rules of criminal procedure. There are precedents. Thats what has been provided in past cases and where judges look first. You dont have that in impeachment. You have the whole impeachment clause of the constitution, ali, is 31 words. So when you get into how do you do the trial . And what rights are afforded the president . None of that is stipulated and required. So youre back, whether you think this is the founders genius or the founders vagueness, you are back into a modern debate over what it should look like. Im going to give you a break for a second, ari, so you can come up with some kind of rap lyric while i talk to jonathan alan. Jonathan, youve been talking to sources on the hill. What are they saying about the whistleblowers safety . Its not clear whether whistleblower testimony needs to be public or not. But there is a feeling among some that the president and his allies are trying to intimidate the whistleblower, anybody else who might be a whistleblower, or anybody who gave the whistleblower information. Yeah. The democrats im talking to were very concerned about the whistleblowers safety. And point to the president s willingness to single out people and accuse them of all sorts of things up to and including treason in a variety of past cases. They think this person could be targeted for harassment or abuse or worse if their identity is put out there and that it could put a Chilling Effect on future whistleblowers, which is the whole point of anonymity in whistle blowing. We should remember that in cases of whistle blowing, the point is not for a whistleblower to act as judge and jury but simply to raise a red flag and say, there are authorities that can investigate. Can investigate. Get to the bottom of it. Its not the whistleblowers responsibility to get to the bottom of it. Correct. And they are now interviewing witnesses who are direct witnesses to the events that took place. So thats why youre hearing from democrats when they say that the whistleblower may be nonessential. Now, the republicans are saying theyre going to want to call the whistleblower and they may have the opportunity to try to do that as we get further along in this process. All right. Ive got some breaking news right now. Again, a big piece of news. The chief judge for the d. C. District court has just issued an opinion ordering the release of quote all portions of the Mueller Report that were redacted and any underlying transcripts or exhibits referenced in the portions of the Mueller Report that were redacted. I want to go to you, ari melber, to tell me what you know about this and what it means. This is a big victory for house democrats. As you say, ali, this is breaking news and this is a federal court agreeing with the house democrats, disagreeing with the Justice Department represented of course by its current leader attorney general bill barr, who had maintained that under the rules you know, we were just talking about criminal procedure rules in a different context. Here they come up again. Its a rule that says typically the grand jury stuff stays secret. Typically but not always. This is a court saying, no, the stuff that was redacted by mr. Barr, that goes to congress too. Its a big victory for now. As we all know, these things can be appealed and then the higher courts could either support this breaking news ruling and side with the democrats or could hear the case, which is to say on appeal, you could always have a higher court ruling. But it puts the democrats in a much stronger position to get the entire unredacted Mueller Report. All right. I want to just repeat this for our audience. The chief judge for the d. C. District court issued an opinion and order releasing the house to the House Judiciary Committee all portions of the Mueller Report that were redacted pursuant to 6 e. Also states the department of justice has to send this to the House Judiciary Committee by october 30th. Next wednesday. Judge how wil noted it needs th grand jury material referenced and cited until the Mueller Report to avoid possible injustice in the impeachment inquiry that this need for disclosure is greater than the need for continued secrecy and the request is structured to cover only material so needed. Jonathan. The democratic sources i talked to on capitol hill said in the tea leaves in some of these proceedings, they are expecting this. In addition, they were expecting to get favorable rulings with regard to documents and testimony with don mcgahn, basically the white houses assertion of executive privilege in some of these cases. So this is going to be something received extremely well by them and a signal theyre going to start getting some of this information the president s been trying to withhold. Ari, does it surprise you . Let me put it like this. It means the democrats were perceived by the judge to have a strong argument to go against the norm. The norm in traditional cases is that grand jury stuff stays secret. In cases involving the president , it has gone to congress before and the democrats had strong precedent in saying that when ken star was investigating a democratic president , that stuff did go to congress. So i think it is a big victory for the democrats and it comes at a time when this white house keeps getting hit with not just bad news but bad evidence. I think it is a reasonable inference. We dont know whats redacted. But its a reasonable inference that mr. Barr based on his Public Record thought that keeping certain stuff redacted would be good for the administration. Now, that stuff is going to go to the democrats in congress on top of the whistleblower testimony weve discussed, on top of new witnesses that are verifying and corroborating what the whistleblower said. So when you talk about a president whos worried about articles of impeachment, this breaking news, this court handing more evidence over to the congress. It could inform potentially a whole other article of impeachment if they get into obstruction of the congressional or doj probes. Just to be clear, this release of certain grand jury information to the House Judiciary Committee, not us. Correct. It goes to the congress. Got it. Okay. Guys, thanks very much. Jonathan alan is Nbc News National Political reporter. Ari melber, chief legal correspondent. Hes the host of the beat at 6 00 p. M. Eastern. Look who s on tonight. Master p and jon flannery. That is the rap stuff i was looking for. Thank you, my friend. The United States is sending troops into Eastern Syria to protect oil fields controlled by kurdish forces. Its a preemptive measure to prevent any moves from Islamic State militants. The u. S. Acting defense secretary mark esper made that announcement this afternoon but the move contradicts what we heard from President Trump this morning in a series of tweets in which he claimed the oil is secured. The president also wrote quote we are bringing our soldiers back home. Isis secure. Joining me now with the latest, nbc chief Foreign Correspondent Richard Engel who joins us live from Northern Syria. Richard, tell us what this means. Well, the Kurdish People here in Northern Syria are watching these tweets by President Trump. They hadnt been watching them very closely before but now their very existence they think depends on what the president is tweeting out. As he tweets out important Foreign Policy decisions, decisions about troop deployments, and the future of the Kurdish People. President trump, for the last two days, has been suggesting over twitter that the kurds, who lived in this part of Northern Syria forever and ever, just uproot themselves while they are under fire in a war that he helped initiate. And move to the desert by the oil fields because he thinks that the oil fields are a bigger priority for the kurds than living in their own homes and their own cities and in their own towns. And kurds are saying, we didnt fight with the United States for five years so we would uproot our own population in the midst of an Ethnic Cleansing Campaign that they think President Trump helped to unleash so that they would live in the desert to protect oil facilities. Oil facilities, by the way, which are in no way guaranteed that theyre going to send oil to the United States or benefit the United States in any way, shape, or form. Richard, can you tell us what what you believe would be required or what u. S. Forces are going to be doing there . Whats the kind of thing thats required to protect these oil fields . So theyll be put a few tanks around the oil fields and thats the end of it. Theres it doesnt take that much to protect some oil fields in the middle of the desert. You put in some troops and you put in some air cover and theyre protected. It it if u. S. Official described this policy to me very simply. He said it is stupid. Thats what i was told just a short while ago speaking to a u. S. Official. It doesnt make any sense. You have the kurds, who are in Northern Syria. A place with water where theyve always lived where they have cities and towns and routes and families. And theyre being told while under fire, no, no, go go somewhere else. Thats the thanks for having fought and lost 11,000 people fighting with the United States against isis. Go live somebody somewhere else so that the u. S. So that you can be a guard force for some oil facilities. By the way, syrias not a big oil country. This is not saudi arabia. This is not bahrain. This is a country that has some oil, sure. But its not a massive Oil Producing country in the gulf. I dont know how this fixation got into President Trumps head. And and the Kurdish People here are looking at this and and saying is the president trying to ethnically cleanse us . Is he working with the people who are trying to push us out of our land . For what purpose . So that we can go and guard some relatively minor oil rigs . Yeah. Richard engel for us in syria. Thank you for your continued excellent reporting from there for us. It is important that the world understands whats really going on. I want to bring in Major General robert scales who served in the United States army for 30 years. He is a former commandant of the u. S. Army war college. A u. S. Military official told Richard Engel this is stupid. He was talking ab this particular move but in fact, there are a lot of military people who have said that about everything thats happened since october 6th. Last week, i was at the armys convention here in d. C. I talked to dozens of people, generals, captains, sergeants, active duty, retired, and the opinion is universal, ali. It is a it is a strategic blunder. Thats general officer talk. Sergeants would say, hey, sir, this is really blanked up. Yeah. The only time ive seen it even come close to that is after 9 11 when the military was seeking to retaliate against the 9 11 disaster. Now, this is unprecedented in my mind. I mean, one pentagon official told me this morning that as far as he is concerned, they are trying to do military strategy by tweets. Right. And that simply is not right . That people here who are not commonly looking at Donald Trumps tweets are thinking theyre getting real information from them because it doesnt make sense on the ground. But there are two problems here. One is a strategic problem in that this was hard fought to defeat isis in these areas. I dont understand how it just happened in the last few months how weve forgotten that thats what we spent the better part of the last 15 years doing with al qaeda and isis. But the second part is the damage to our alliances, right . Absolutely. Which is bigger . I think its i think theres two answers. First of all, you have the esoteric side of this where soldiers who form close alliances with the kurds over the last four or five years. There is an old addage in the military that the worst thing a soldier can do is abandon a comrade under fire. The other issue is trust. What other allies do we have in the world who are concerned that maybe another phone call might completely change americas attitude. Israel comes to mind of course. What about the baltic states, lithuania, estonia, and latvia. How are they feeling right now . Perhaps a telephone call from Vladimir Putin to the president. This creates what we in the military call strategic uncertainty. As you know, the last thing generals want is uncertainty when youre dealing with the lives of their soldiers. We talk about isis a lot but really, there are other vikters victors in this thing. But as you just mentioned, russia. Russia won a battle that it didnt even have to fight. Look, the new sheriff in town. Talk to anybody. The new sheriff in town is Vladimir Putin and he won this status with pennies on the dollar. All he did was just fill a black hole that we left. There was an old addage that terrorists are like mushrooms. They grow in the dark. And by pulling out and putting russia into that void, if we ever have to go back in, god forbid, and face isis in the future, were going to go into a void that currently is occupied by three people we dont get along with. Assad, the russians, and iran. Amazing set of developments and its only a few weeks in. Retired Major General, always good to see you, sir. Thank you. Coming up next, a federal judge holds loss in contempt of court and issues a 100,000 fine saying devos failed to follow an order to stop collecting Student Loans owed by thousands of former students of the now closed forprofit colleges. Ill be joined by one of the attorneys who filed the case against secretary devos after the break. You are watching msnbc. Break. You are watching msnbc when i was diagnosed with dupuytrens contracture, i waited to get treated. Thought surgery was my only option. But then i found out about nonsurgical treatments. It was a total game changer. Learn more about the condition at factsonhand. Com it was a total game changer. And i recently had hi, ia heart attack. It changed my life. But im a survivor. After my heart attack, my doctor prescribed brilinta. Its for people who have been hospitalized for a heart attack. Brilinta is taken with a lowdose aspirin. No more than 100 milligrams as it affects how well brilinta works. Brilinta helps keep platelets from sticking together and forming a clot. In a clinical study, brilinta worked better than plavix. Brilinta reduced the chance of having another heart attack. Or dying from one. Dont stop taking brilinta without talking to your doctor, since stopping it too soon increases your risk of clots in your stent, heart attack, stroke, and even death. Brilinta may cause bruising or bleeding more easily, or serious, sometimes fatal bleeding. Dont take brilinta if you have bleeding, like stomach ulcers, a history of bleeding in the brain, or severe liver problems. Slow heart rhythm has been reported. Tell your doctor about bleeding new or unexpected shortness of breath any planned surgery, and all medicines you take. If you recently had a heart attack, ask your doctor if brilinta is right for you. My heart is worth brilinta. If you cant afford your medication, astrazeneca may be able to help. 1. 6 trillion in college debt should be cancelled. Thats according to the head of the student federal loan office who resigned from the department of education yesterday. His name is a. Wayne johnson and he plan on his Campaign Website to relieve most of the countrys student debt. Johnson is now running for senate in georgia as a republican to replace senator johnny isakson. Now the plan includes getting rid of 50,000 of student debt per person giving tax credits to borrowers who have already paid off their loans and paying for it all with a 1 tax on employers. Johnson says he also hopes to get the government out of Student Loans entirely calling the Current System broken to its core. Now a judge has handed down a victory for thousands of americans who were still paying back school loans even though the forprofit school they attended closed years ago. A judge ruled betsy bevoss in contempt of court for ignoring a court order. Officials found the colleges lured student with deceptive marketing and predatory recruiting and the chain of colleges shut down abruptly in 2015. Last year a federal judge ordered education secretary betsy devos to stop collection of these loans after a class action challenged the trump administrations decision to do so. The administrations position was a stark reversal from 2015 when the Obama Administration announced that it would forgive Student Loans taken out by students who attended corinthian or other fraudulent colleges. Eileen conor joins me now. She is one of the attorneys who brought this case against secretary devos and the legal director of the project on student lending. For our viewers who dont remember this story very clearly, what in essence is at the core of it . So this case started, ali, and thanks for having me, with a predatory and fraudulent institution called corinthian that was operating forprofit colleges across the nation and targeting its deceptive product to women, people of color, first in their family to go to college, and essentially was shut down because it was such a fraud. Unlike the plan that you were discussing with wayne johnson, students who were taken in by corinthian and other fraudulent forprofit schools like it dont need a policy change because the law already provides that their Student Loans need to be canceled. And thats something that the administration under president obama recognized and was taking steps to effectuate that cancelation, and that came to a halt under secretary devos. So the ruling yesterday, thats the context for the ruling yesterday. Lets sort of broaden this out to student debt in general. The total amount of student debt in this country is 1. 6 trillion. 30 of all adult americans have student debt. The average debt is 20 to 25,000 a person. Thats according to the u. S. Federal reserve, although the average is not a good number in this particular instance because some people have a lot more debt and some people are paying off smaller amounts of debt into their 40s and later. There are a lot of proposals out there, particularly amongst Democratic Candidates to address this. Amongst democrats this is a very, very serious issue. Over the course of the next year, do you see a fundamental change in student financing and how we think about student debt . I think its clear that the system that we have is not working. The thing that i am focused on on behalf of my clients who are the former students of these scam schools is the fact that the law already says that their loans need to be canceled. Thats what weve been fighting with secretary devos about and we are going to keep fighting. The fine is going to be the 100,000 fine is not going to be paid by betsy devos, its going to be paid by the department of education, ie, taxpayers. Held by the lawyers of the former corinthian students, and whats going to happen to that money . So, ari, its true that the taxpayers are going to have to pay for the secretarys careless and almost intentional flouting of this court order just like he aligns herself with the forprofit industry and has removed every single gatekeeping regulation that would protect taxpayer money from going to schools that do more harm than good to students. So we are going to do are compensated in a way thats appropriate. Eileen is one of the attorneys who brought this case against secretary devos and the legal director of the project on predatory student lending. We will be right back after this. Be right back after this it made her feel proud. 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Then he would ask but what feeds your soul . More than a few of us left those interviews with tears in our eyes perhaps feeling that we had learned more about ourselves than about him. It is difficult to describe the emptiness we feel now. His spirit was so strong, his energy so boundless that the void is devastating. But of course he left us with instructions. Pain, passion, purpose, take your pain, turn it into your passion, make it your purpose. He lived these words and inspired us to do the same. Deadline white house with my friend Nicolle Wallace begins now. Hi, everyone. Its 4 00 in washington, d. C. Where many in the nations capitol are mourning the death of congressman Elijah Cummings. Well bring you some of the most powerful moments from his funeral later in the hour. Many in washington today also reacting with alarm to last nights report in the New York Times that attorney general william barr has opened a criminal phase of his investigation into his own departments investigation into russian meddling. Its a move that two former National Security officials tell me today is deeply suspicious in terms of timing and on its face deeply suspect in that it seems to lack any predicate. But we start with the president s impeachment. Investigation that many suspect the president and his allies hope to distract us from with that leak of a criminal probe. Nbc news today reporting on a possible bombshell in the impeachment investigation for the first time in this countrys history a president s own National Security adviser could be a witness in the impeachment investigation into him. Nbc news reporting former National Security adviser john boltons lawyers have been in contact with Committee Officials amid reports of ongoing negotiations about a date for a closeddoor depositions. Investigators have already heard about boltons concerns about the hijacking of ukraine policy foric